When 9-year-old Christopher Banks's father-- a British businessman involved in the opium trade-- disappears from the family home in Shanghai, the boy and his friend Akira play at being detectives. But Christopher's mother also disappears, and he is sent to live in England, where he grows up in the years between the world wars to become, he claims, a famous detective. His family's fate continues to haunt him, however, and he sifts through his memories to try to make sense of his loss. Finally, in the late 1930s, he returns to Shanghai to solve the most important case of his life. But as Christopher pursues his investigation, the boundaries between fact and fantasy begin to evaporate.
Shortlisted for the Booker.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (1 of 41), Read
49 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 07:29 PM
This whole thread may contain spoilers.
Ishiguro is a master of subtlety and of making his
narrative evoke much more than the words say. So much
of the flavor and intensity of his writing lies in what
remains unsaid. As a narrator, Christopher Banks is cool
and unemotional, almost tentative in his description of
events. Yet the reader can sense the turmoil beneath his
words. Banks became a detective -- a veritable Sherlock
Holmes, with cases and successes and a following. Yet,
even with all these successes, the solution of the mystery
that fueled his imagination remains beyond his grasp.
What must it have been like to be totally abandoned by
both parents with no explanation? With Banks’ slow,
deliberate almost detached way of describing events, we
sense the unexplored pain and loss that threatens to
overwhelm him.
Memory -- the painstaking unwinding of events is the
main focus of the narration. This story reminds me of a
steam engine, straining to get to the crest of a mountain,
and then and then and then comes hurtling down, with all
of gravity and the forces of nature behind it. The scenes
on the war front were frighteningly surrealist. Did anyone
really expect his parents to be in that house? Why would
such a great detective be so naïve? And what about
Akira? At that point, Banks really seemed like a little boy
again, tricked by an overactive imagination combined with
a lifetime of wishful thinking.
What do you all think about the line “I was too late”? He
was too late a lot. What caused that? Inaction? Fear?
Need to have everything under control?
Sherry
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (2 of 41), Read
55 times
Conf:
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From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 07:47 PM
I was very surprised that a world renowned investigator
would have the naive belief that his parents survived
after twenty years. But, really, neither did survive. They
both were dead in different ways, his father physically
and his mother mentally.
I loved the narrative style of this novel.I felt as tho I were
walking with Christopher as he calmly speaks of the
tragedy in his life. And, when you think of it, every
relationship in his life, with the exception of Jennifer, came
to a tragic end.
The only saving grace in finding his mother was to know
that she loved him deeply, throughout all the years, and
that the love she felt for him was so deep that it became
the ground of her emotional garden. She, in her mind,
forevermore would live in the past with her young child.
Beej
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (3 of 41), Read
53 times
Conf:
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From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 08:08 PM
The whole writing style here made me think it was an
homage to Conan Doyle. Sherlockian to the max. After I
realized that things were going to go slowly, and I might
just as well relax and enjoy the ride, I did.
But my willing suspension of disbelief began to sag
towards the end, especially the war scenes.
And here's something else that's beenn puzzling me. Why
do you suppose KI added the bit about Christopher
having to go to China to save the world? Wasn't it
enough that he go to find out what happened to his
parents?
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (4 of 41), Read
50 times
Conf:
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From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 09:04 PM
Beej, Ruth, & Sherry: I'm just now wending my way to the
end of WWWO, and will have to give some more thought
to the points you raise.
I can already say, though, that Ishiguro has definitely
wowed me with this one. Not least of his achievements is
the technical balancing act he pulls off, between an
understated prose style and intense dramatic punch...I'm
in awe of the affects he achieves with such subtlety. Can't
remember anything to quite match it since...well, since
REMAINS OF THE DAY. I know that ORPHANS goes on my
Top 10 of the year list, maybe higher. I look forward to
hearing other reactions to this really classy piece of work.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (5 of 41), Read
50 times
Conf:
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From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:18 PM
I think Christopher is an unreliable narrator and I didn't
know what to believe by the end of the novel.
He seems to excel at self-deception. He denies other
people's perception of his past. For example, he meets his
old school friend James Osbourne on the opening page.
James recalls that Christopher was "such an odd bird at
school," deeply offending his friend. Christopher's "own
memory is that I blended in perfectly." He meets the man
who accompanied him on the boat to England right after
his parents had disappeared. This man recalls how sorry
he felt for the miserable little boy. Christopher does not
remember being miserable.
In Shanghai, he meets Morgan, another old school mate.
Morgan remembers that they were both miserable loners.
Christopher "is astounded" at this assertion that he was
unhappy and friendless. Morgan, in turn responds with
"Extraordinary"-- amazed at Christopher's denial.
There are other references in the book to the fact that
people are laughing at Christopher and his pretensions to
being a detective. At the wedding he attends in Chapter
11, the brother of the groom apologizes profusely for the
people who are harassing Christopher. Once more he
denies this. "If anything I was enjoying the joke just as
much as they were."
Christopher doesn't see himself as others seem him, so I
started to wonder how much of what he was telling the
reader was true. Sherry mentioned those grandiose ideas
he had of saving the world. Was that a sign of mental
illness?
The part of the book set in China is indeed surreal. Does it
describe reality, or Christopher's perception of it, distorted
by his terrible need to find a reason for the disappearance
of his parents. The fate of his mother seems totally
preposterous. I would like to see a sequel to this book,
written from another character's point of view.
I am not sure what to make of it, but it is one of the most
interesting books I have read in recent years.
Ann
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (6 of 41), Read
51 times
Conf:
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From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:28 PM
Right, Ann. It was obvious that ol' Chris was fooling
himself about not having been a miserable little snotface
when he was young. But I hadn't made the leap that you
did - that perhaps he wasn't the world-famous detective
he said he was - and perhaps the "save the world" idea
was completely delusional.
I'm sure the meeting with Akira was a delusion. And the
rest of the war scene works much better if it's viewed as
a delusion.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (7 of 41), Read
52 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:29 PM
Ann: I very much agree. Christopher = Unreliable Narrator
to the 10th power. In fact, I'm wondering if Ishiguro
consciously reflected on the unreliable-narrator aspect of
REMAINS OF THE DAY and decided to see just how far he
could push that one quality in ORPHANS. In my estimation
he pushed it, pardon the expression, a hell of a long way.
I'm sure that Christopher's narrative parts company with
literal reality at some point(s), but exactly when/where
that happens remains an ever-shifting puzzle.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (8 of 41), Read
49 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:41 PM
Here's an Ishiguro interview from BookPage in which he
addresses some of the questions we've raised...
http://www.bookpage.com/0009bp/kazuo_ishiguro.html
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (9 of 41), Read
50 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:48 PM
I thought the book was a great read, so chalk one up for
Ishiguro. But I just couldn't feel any ring of authenticity for
Christopher Banks. What bachelor in those days would be
allowed to adopt a young girl like that? Why was a party
being arranged to celebrate his "finding" his parents?
That hit me out of the blue. I assumed he knew they were
dead, or else he'd have been searching for them long
before.
And in the middle of this intense search, he agrees to run
off with Sarah--then ditches her for the adventure again.
Usually when I am this dissatisfied with a main character,
I completely pan the book. But not this time--despite it all,
I was swept away with the telling of the story, but not
the story itself.
Anne
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (10 of 41),
Read 53 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:56 PM
Ann, your post was a real eye opener for me!
I took most of the book at face value, with two
exceptions. First, toward the end when he tells the
Lieutenant that he knew full well the Lieutenant blamed
him for the destruction and suffering of the battle. This
was my first inkling that Christopher was delusional. And
second, when he stumbled upon Akira. I doubted it was
really Akira..
And I did realize early on that Christopher's reasoning
was off kilter about the odds of his parents' survival.
But now I wonder if Sarah Hemmings really planned on
leaving with Christopher and even if Christopher really
found his mother. Now I'm wondering if it was Christopher
in the asylum and not his mother.
Beej
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (11 of 41),
Read 52 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 11:18 PM
Beej,
I don't think we can trust much of anything, which I find
quite frustrating as a reader, although I admire Ishiguro
for daring to write a book like this.
Dale, thanks for the interview. I especially like the part
about Christopher equating his attempt to rescue his
parents, and thus make whole his own private world, with
his grandiose ideas about saving civilization.
Until he got to China, I knew Christopher excelled at
self-delusion, but the story still seemed realistic. After the
return to Shanghai, things got so bizarre that I lost some
interest. I was hoping Ishiguro would pull it all together at
the end and provide some resolution.
Of course, if you take the story at face value, he did. I
couldn't take it at face value and kept waiting for the rest
of the story.
Ann
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (12 of 41),
Read 55 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 04:40 AM
Ann -- I am pretty much with you on this -- the ending left
me wanting to know more of what went on with
Christopher relative to this "discovery" of his mother and
questioning his actually having experienced this as such.
His own inaccurate readings of events throughout his life
leads me to think he may well have rewritten this in his
telling.
But the overall response to this tale is one of thoroughly
enjoying the whole -- enjoying the revelations of
Christopher -- the realities as viewed by him and by
others and the revelation of the working of his mind
relative to those events. Events with which his child's
mind could not cope and did not cope for his lifetime
perhaps. An amazing book -- and as I said on that earlier
thread I didn't so much devour this one as it devoured
me.
The war front scenes were such that the descriptions
reminded me of scenes in Slaughterhouse Five -- and I
wondered about Akira -- or was it Akira? -- I think the fact
that I'm still not certain is tribute to Ishiguro. I know this
one goes on my all-time list and I will return to it -- maybe
in tandem with Slaughterhouse Five and Blessing on the
Moon -- another story which somehow comes to mind as I
think of this one.
Dottie
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (13 of 41),
Read 55 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 07:48 AM
One thing I am sure of, is that it was not Akira. To me that
was the turning point in the revelation that Banks was
exceptionally deluded. The war scenes were real life
coming apart, no matter how hard he tried to deceive
himself. Ruth, I think the question you asked about why
have him try to save the world, has now been answered.
To me it seemed to go hand in hand. He thought that his
parents' kidnapping was an important, world-shattering
event (and it was, to him) connected in mysterious ways
to all the political upheaval going on. To solve one would
be to solve the other. Ishiguro talked about this kind of
"weird logic" in the interview Dale linked to.
Banks being an unreliable narrator didn't bother me in the
least. Maybe I was gulled by him, but I enjoyed it. I could
tell his perception of the world was certainly skewed to
provide himself some emotional comfort. But I had an
almost protective, motherly feeling for him. I so much
wanted him to be all right. I was very much reminded of
the feeling I had for the butler in Remains of the Day. He
seemed so emotionally vulnerable, but coped with it the
best way he knew how.
Sherry
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (14 of 41),
Read 55 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:11 AM
Sherry: I think seeing that "weird logic" at work is part of
what makes this book so affecting for me.
One point at which I knew Christopher had some real
problems is when he's defensive...in his own mind, at
least...about why he's let 20 years go by before going on
this all-out quest to rescue his parents. His reasoning,
basically, is that he's been very busy.
As preposterous as this sounds on its face, it makes me
uncomfortable because I can think of situations in my own
life when I've done, or failed to do, very crucial things
with, in hindsight, no better justification. Whatever
membrane lies between sanity and delusion is a lot
thinner, and a lot more permeable, than we can let
ourselves believe and still get through the day. A very
disturbing book.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (15 of 41),
Read 52 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 01:35 PM
I agree. Not Akira. Obviously someone who took
advantage of C's delusion. Or was it? Was there a
Japanese soldier at all? I can't believe I realized he was
fooling himself about his childhood, and yet I bought the
rest of his story hook, line and sinker. Now I want to go
back and read this again.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (16 of 41),
Read 48 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Jane Niemeier jniemeie@hotmail.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 09:54 PM
Great posts everyone! I guess I believed much of what
Christopher had to say. I didn't believe the part about
Akira, because Ishiguro made that obvious that it wasn't
Akira.
As I mentioned in one of our teaser posts, I liked the
feeling of being transported to early 20th century
Shanghai.
Jane
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (17 of 41),
Read 49 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 09:59 PM
Did it seem odd to anyone else that, with the exception of
his on again, off again fascination with Sarah, there was
no real romantic interests in Christopher's life
whatsoever?
Beej
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (18 of 41),
Read 50 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:04 PM
Jane, come to think of it, we don't even really know if
there was an Akira in his childhood, either.
I'm with you, Ruth..this is going to call for a quick re-read.
Beej
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (19 of 41),
Read 51 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:09 PM
Beej: I know what you mean, about Christopher's
reactions to women. Something sort of odd and vacant
there that I couldn't quite put my finger on. Even with
Jennifer. Nothing prurient, but nothing paternal either.
Almost as though he was stuck at 9 years old and didn't
know how to approach people socially except as
playmates. Maybe nobody matched up to his obsession
with his mother? Just thinking out loud, here. More food
for thought than any novel I've read in a while, except for
BLINDNESS. And some of the war scenes in ORPHANS
reminded me of the sheer existential desperation of
Saramago's characters. A high compliment.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (20 of 41),
Read 50 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:28 PM
First I believed almost everything C said. Now I believe
almost nothing. I'd bet he made up that scene where he
spurned Sarah at that fancy dinner. Concocted it
completely out of the air, revenge for the way she
spurned him when he saw her in that tea room, and
finally managed to convince himself it happened.
I'll bet she never asked him to run away with her, either.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (21 of 41),
Read 51 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:34 PM
Wow. Thank god for these discussions. I'm thinking I
really missed the boat on my reading of this. That
Christopher was delusional never really dawned on me,
though I was less than satisfied with his explanations and
actions. But I see it now. Wish I had time to reread--but
it's back at the library.
Now I'm vaguely uncomfortable, having been so drawn in
by such an unbalanced character. I often naively take
people at face value. Ishiguro did a masterful job.
Anne
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (22 of 41),
Read 55 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 12:28 AM
Don't forget he fooled me, too, Anne. And I'm a person
that takes people at face value, too. Hmmm, do I sense
something significant here?
Mine's due at the library on the 19th, do you suppose I
can squeeze a quick reread in? But what about the 3
other library books waiting in the TBR pile?
I didn't like this book so awfully much when I finished it,
and now that Ann pointed out the unreliable narrator I
like it more and more.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (23 of 41),
Read 54 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 02:17 AM
Hey -- I didn't say I thought it WAS Akira -- just
questioned the whole -- I'm totally lost as to what is
reality, what is memory and what is this man's
disconnected construction. THAT is the magic of the book
-- and of Ishiguro's writing and I totally loved the
backgrounds and felt transported in time and space -- the
whole was so nearly seamless that it flew by and only
Banks himself had the power to twitch the lead line from
time to time -- "does he REALLY believe what he is saying
?" is a response that passed through my mind more than
once. This is a fascinating book.
Ruth, you and I are in the same quandary -- I have till the
23rd to get the bib book back but I am barely into the
second one and the third is languishing. Think I'll wait and
do this reread later and continue to savor the first
impression of it yet awhile -- this was a BIG impression
and since those are infrequent -- it deserves to percolate
a while I believe.
Something which I wonder about is the entanglement of
the opium trade with the company for which Banks' father
works -- and the parents relationship to each other,
especially their personal relationship and their personal
lives relative to this drug traffic. Is it only a coincidence
that the mother is taken by this warlord and addicted to
opium and lives the life she led -- or is there some tie to
the underlying drug trade? OR -- is the whole thing again
young Banks' mind disconnecting -- and is that later life of
the mother spun out of something in his childhood which
he is trying to explain or escape?
So much to contemplate here.
Dottie
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (24 of 41),
Read 29 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Karen Slongwhite kmbookworm@hotmail.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 03:28 PM
It never occurred to me that the entire thing was one big
delusion. It was clear to me that he had one gigantic blind
spot in relationship to himself and relationships between
people. The second half of the book was confusing to me
because I was having a difficult time reconciling this image
of this big detective solving cases with someone who
could be so off base and lacking in observation in
relationship to himself.
I just now had a thought... Perhaps the solving of cases
was a continuation of his playacting being a detective. I
don't think he ever states that he was the one officially
solving those cases. He says things like, "around the time
the murder was solved", etc. He may have actually
studied these cases and come up with theories, but not
have been on the case officially. Perhaps his trip to
Shanghai was his first actual attempt at a case.
As I read, my original feeling towards him was that he
was a rather pompous, self-involved jerk. I thought this
before he went to Shanghai, but it got so much worse
once he was there. He seemed to actually believe that
finding his parents would stop the war.
In some ways, whatever view of ourselves that we have,
we are self-delusional. It is always interesting to me
when someone drops a line that reveals what they really
think about me. A couple of years ago, a woman I went to
high school with told me she saw me as being
self-sufficient, confident, and not really caring what other
people's opinions of me are. Recently a woman I go to
church with expressed surprise that I don't own a car and
haven't for two years because, "You are so independent."
Both of these expressions were kind of a surprise to me,
because I don't really see myself in this way. Ever since
they told me these things, I try to sort of self observe in
social situations to see why I project that image because
it isn't exactly what I want to project (at least not at the
levels these two woman were expressing).
I think all of us have some sense of what image we
project and how people view us, even if it is only on a gut
level and not something we could articulate or that
anyone has ever said to us. But Christopher doesn't have
this sense. He believes that everyone sees him exactly as
he sees himself and that everyone is just as interested in
him and his issues as he is. Clearly, this isn't the case!
As I was reading the book, I saw Christopher as
representing the greater culture of the International
Settlement. They were so separated from life around
them in China and the world. They were having parties
and watching the bombs fall on the area around them,
believing it wouldn't touch them. And even before the
war, they had to delude themselves about the actions of
the companies they were working for in terms of the
opium trade.
Again, we all are delusional in this way. Some of us more
than others (witness the brochure on how 'American
Universities are failing the nation' under the Academic
Flambe topic in the Salon). We see what we want to see;
what we can deal with emotionally. We look at what we
can't entirely deal with and create stories so these things
can make some sort of sense to us (see the Lies My
Teacher Told Me thread in Constant Reader).
This book kind of pulled all these things together for me in
light of recent events and my own personal recent
reading and extra curricular activities.
As I read this book, the only part I felt was unreliable was
the part in Shanghai. Now I need to go back and reread
with the thought that perhaps the entire thing is
unreliable. Hopefully, I'll have time to do that before this
thread ends :-)
Another thing I just thought of -- how often do we come
to a point in our lives and realize that we've been dealing
with someone or something unreliable and wonder where
it all began to be unreliable and why we didn't notice it
before this?! I will say for myself that was certainly my
own experience with my marriage. At what point did he
start lying? Or was he so self-delusional that he believed
he was telling the truth? Personally, I haven't figured it
out, but have gotten to the point where I don't feel
compelled to understand it. But I am left with this feeling
of uncertainty -- just how much of those seven years that
I was involved with him really means what I think it
means, or goes with the story I have in my mind and how
much of it is my own self delusion?
Just before I started typing the above paragraph, I had
another thought, but it has dissolved while I was typing
the paragraph. But this post is already long enough
anyway :-)
Karen
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (25 of 41),
Read 33 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 04:13 PM
Karen: I really enjoyed your post. Once when I was
growing up I read somewhere the piece of advice, "Never
compare your insides to everbody else's outsides." A lot
of wisdom there and I've tried to follow it over the years,
but as you say there's invariably going to be a disconnect,
sometimes huge, between our self-image and the way
we're really perceived. I'm guessing this is a very, very
touchy area of our psyches, hence one reason a story like
ORPHANS snares us, as it does, at some deep level.
Like Anne, I took Christopher pretty much at his word
through most of the story. An odd duck, but I kind of liked
him and thought I could sense a vulnerability under that
pompousness. It wasn't until the trip to Shanghai that
things started getting way too weird for me to compute,
and I knew that I must have missed something along the
way.
In hindsight, I'm amazed at how many possible clues I
had glossed over. One was the expression that
Christopher used almost like a mantra: "I'm a little hazy
on this particularly memory, but..." And then the scene he
renders is not hazy at all, but told in great detail,
just...odd.
Currently I'm having to deal with (or not deal with; long
story) a family member with an illness that sometimes
peaks in bouts of delusion, and I'm not very good at it. No
matter how illogical or absurd some of the claims are, it's
human nature to actively want to believe the person
because he/she seems so convinced. Makes me realize
what a malleable territory the brain is, and it's frightening.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (26 of 41),
Read 35 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Karen Slongwhite kmbookworm@hotmail.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 04:25 PM
Dale --
When you said that about the memory always being hazy,
it kicked in the other thing I couldn't remember at the end
of my last post. Everything in this book is being told about
the past. We never here it in the present. It is always
looking back and processing the event.
The reason I didn't see delusion prior to the arrival in
Shanghai was that I saw him as looking back and telling a
story as he had developed it over time. All of us and and
subtract details, consciously or not, when we think about
our past. I thought the inconsistencies I saw were simply
caused by the time that had passed between his
experiences and when he was recording them.
Karen
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (27 of 41),
Read 34 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Karen Slongwhite kmbookworm@hotmail.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 04:29 PM
I also saw this looking back and recording as indicative of
Christopher's inability to comprehend what was going on
in his own life. He had to look back in order to
understand. He couldn't see what was going on right in
front of his face.
Karen
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (28 of 41),
Read 27 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 07:33 PM
Very interesting notes, Karen. I was looking for signs of
an unstable narrator from the start because I read some
reviews of this book when it first came out. I didn't
remember much from the reviews, except the idea that
the narrator was not completely trustworthy. As a result, I
was looking for signs from the start, and they are planted
throughout the book. I never bought the idea that
Christopher was a great detective any place other than in
his own mind.
This theme of self-delusion is central to Ishiguro's books. I
had already read THE REMAINS OF THE DAY a few years
ago, but after reading WHEN WE WERE ORPHANS, I
decided to read Ishiguro's ARTIST OF THE FLOATING.
WORLD. The main character in the latter book is a
Japanese artist who created propaganda paintings before
and during the Second World War. He is not mentally
disturbed - like I believe Christopher is- but he also excels
at seeing himself as a much more powerful and important
figure than he really is. One difference in that book is that
he is forced to confront the truth about himself in the end.
These books certainly make me wonder about the lies I
tell myself.
Your experiences about projecting a different image than
you experience inside are very interesting, Karen. The
perceptions of those other people certainly aren't
negative, however.
I had to feel a great deal of sympathy for Christopher.
Think of it: to lose both your parents, your only good
friend, and then be sent to what was, for you, a foreign
country. That alone would have been terrible enough, but
then he was forced to attend one of those dreadful British
boarding schools, which seem to me like a kind of upper
class child abuse. The most affecting part of the novel for
me were the scenes when he mistakenly thinks he has
found his great friend Akira again. How lonely he must
have been all those years.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (29 of 41),
Read 29 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 08:23 PM
I loved ARTIST OF A FLOATING WORLD, Ann. I think
precisely because the narrator was more stable, and
therefore forced to confront things.
This afternoon I started Orphans all over again. I think
this detective stuff is a case of arrested development. C's
life was turned upside down right at the age when he
was idolizing the idea of a detective as Superman,
capable of anything, fighter of all evil, able to leap tall
buildings with a single bound. And he never grew beyond
that stage.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (30 of 41),
Read 27 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net
Date:
Saturday, November 17, 2001 07:38 AM
I have been thinking about this book a whole lot. I don't
really want to go and reread it so soon (especially since
I'm in the middle of the Harry Potter series). One of the
things I really wish was that we could talk to Ishiguro. I
want to ask him about Christopher Banks and which parts
of his narrative were real and which weren't. I bet he
would answer the way Tim O'Brien answered when asked
if the man really killed his wife in In the Lake of the Woods.
And that was "I don't know." Some of Banks' narrative
had to be "true" (if anything can be true in the middle of
fiction) since we picked up on the inconsistencies. If the
narrator were a glib liar and trying to fool us, he wouldn't
leave little clues like having his former school-mate feel
sorry for him. Or have the captain of the boat think he
was a miserable little chap.
I believed a lot more of Christopher's story than the rest
of you, but there was one big question than no one else
has mentioned. Was the woman he found really his
mother? I thought it was strange that he didn't want to
tell the sisters who he was. All we had to go on was that
she seemed to know who "Puffin" was. Maybe he made
that up. He needed an end to the story; maybe he
gathered enough "evidence" to create his own ending.
Sherry
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (31 of 41),
Read 33 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:40 AM
Sherry,
I think you've hit the nail on the head. How much of
Christopher's story is "true" and how much was
"invented" to fulfill Christopher's psychological needs? I
believe that Ishiguro wanted to leave the reader with
that unresolved question. My guess is that he is very
pleased that readers interpret it so differently. I am a
natural skeptic, so I tended to disbelieve more than
others, but I am well aware that it can be equally valid to
accept much more of the story on its face value than I did.
The author's ambiguity is what makes this novel so
interesting, but at the same time it leaves me feeling
somewhat frustrated. I'm weak. I usually like those loose
ends tied up.
Do I believe that the old woman at the end was Puffin's
mother ? Perhaps. But that scene reminded me of some
visits to my own mother, who also suffered from senile
dementia. Such a person more often responds to the tone
of your voice and your demeanor than the words you are
saying. They have lost the ability to process meaning. Her
visitor obviously expected some response from her before
he would leave, so she may just have responded to that
need so he would go away.
Also, Christopher never told the nuns at the rest home
who he was. I believe that he did not want to investigate
the identity of this woman too carefully. Isn't it sad that
he had such a strong need for forgiveness? Small children
so often feel that they are the cause of a parent's
disappearance. This feeling most have tormented him
throughout his life.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (32 of 41),
Read 25 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
William Hayes whayes43@hotmail.com
Date:
Sunday, November 18, 2001 12:15 PM
What wonderful reflections on this book.
I, myself, saw CB as the middle class twit equivalent of
the loyal butler in REMAINS OF THE DAY. The ethical stance
for both of their lives are neatly summed up in the words
of British philosopher F H Bradley: "my station and its
duty." Frightening.
I like KI's comment that he writes from the place "where
we all live -- in a bit of a fog."
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (33 of 41),
Read 20 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Sunday, November 18, 2001 03:38 PM
William: Ishiguro's comment about us all "living in a bit of
a fog" resonated with me, too. Glad to know I'm not in
that fog alone.{G}
That said, there was one revelation late in the story that I
had no doubt about, credibility-wise...the fact that Uncle
Phillip had the hots for Christopher's mom the whole time,
in the "good old days." That was so evident to me that I
wondered to what extent, if any, his feelings were
returned.
The story of her eventual fate was so nightmarish I don't
know if I buy it (and Phillip's motivations toward same, for
that matter) or not. But it's a hell of a story.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (34 of 41),
Read 18 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Sunday, November 18, 2001 03:59 PM
William -- that is a great quote from Ishiguro -- I still
haven't made my way to reading the info linked -- BUT
funniest thing, Dale -- as I opened this thread to see the
new posts I thought -- if the mother's story is true then
perhaps the whole of it was played out earlier to some
degree -- the parents and this "Uncle" who seems to
have outlasted others who passed through their lives and
due in part to the role he played BETWEEN the parents --
I suddenly thought maybe all this was apparent to the
child CB and that led to the insecure and disconnected
manner in which he led his life thereafter -- as I say -- one
day this one will pull me back in -- it is just too full of
questions after the fact to be left alone{G}. What a
convoluted tale! And you know -- the father was aware of
the drugs flowing -- maybe he was MORE than aware of it
-- maybe he wasn't just winking and nodding but was
directly and actively involved. So much was going on
around the child and then wham -- it all shifted.
Dottie
"You can't say poetry should be about something or
shouldn't be about something. Poems are, the poem is,
and that's all there is to it." Alan Dugan, two time winner
of the NBA, Poetry
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (35 of 41),
Read 21 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Sunday, November 18, 2001 04:40 PM
Dale, I had exactly the same feeling about the
relationship of the mother and the "uncle."
Dottie, since Ann yanked the rug out from under my
faithful acceptance of things as presented, I've not been
sure of those drugs at all. Seems to me the kid was pretty
young to be aware of the drug stuff, especially living as
sheltered as he was in that European compound.
I've been wondering if CB didn't just put all this together
as another of his delusional fantasies, combining his
childhood ideas of intrigue and the detective, and his
idealization of his mother, with what he later learned
about the drug traffic in China at that time.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (36 of 41),
Read 18 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Sunday, November 18, 2001 05:05 PM
Ruth,
Strangely :), the involvement of the father's company with
the opium trade was one thing I didn't doubt. The English
were notorious for their promotion of the opium trade in
China during the 19th century. Between 1839-42, they
even fought a war with the Chinese government when it
tried to stop the British merchants from importing opium.
This story is set much later, but I assumed the opium
business was a sideline of the trading company
Christopher's father worked for. I couldn't imagine him
working for a company whose main purpose was the
opium trade, but, as with most of this story, that is
certainly open to interpretation.
Dale, excellent observations about "Uncle" Phillip.
Ann
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (37 of 41),
Read 17 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Jane Niemeier jniemeie@hotmail.com
Date:
Sunday, November 18, 2001 09:13 PM
I have very much enjoyed these notes. I wanted to
mention that much of the narration isn't about the far
past. If you notice the dates of the various sections of the
book, the passages are written right after something
important happens. The thing that happens brings up
CB's childhood, but CB seems to be recording what
happened in his journal a few hours after it happened.
I am also wondering about the title, WHEN WE WERE
ORPHANS. It implies that "we" are no longer orphans. So I
kept waiting for CB to find his parents, so that he would
no longer be an orphan.
Jane
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (38 of 41),
Read 18 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
William Hayes whayes43@hotmail.com
Date:
Sunday, November 18, 2001 09:14 PM
Here's another point of view.
The questions that many have asked about CB (Is he or
isn't he? Did he or didn't he?) have arisen naturally out of
the book. They are questions posed for us by KI the
artist. They take as their premise that the most important
function of art is subjective and the most important values
are spiritual in nature: individualism and idealism.
There are, however, other questions that arise naturally
out of the book. These other questions are posed for us
by KI the teacher. They take as their premise that the
most important function of art is objective and the most
important values are material in nature: collectivism and
realism.
Many have used the word "surreal" in talking of CB and
his interior life in the face of what (we know) was really
happening around him in the world of the 1930s. Certainly
his world view, individualist and idealist, was not just
unreal but tragically unreal. However, this conclusion of
unreality is not one that KI invites us to make just about
CB himself. KI invites us to make an indictment of tragic
unreality about individualism and idealism writ large as
these values manifest themselves in whole social classes
and indeed in whole nations, then and now.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (39 of 41),
Read 11 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Sunday, November 18, 2001 09:36 PM
Jane: I hadn't thought about the significance of the title
since very early in my reading of the book, when I
presumed the "we" referred to Christopher and Sarah,
who both were orphans. Later, the orphaned Jennifer
comes into the picture. So the "we" becomes a lot more
inclusive, but what the heck are we to make of the
"were"?
Ishiguro is such an intelligent and painstaking writer it's
hard for me to imagine that the title isn't somehow
relevant to the outcome of all these characters' linked
stories.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (40 of 41),
Read 9 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Monday, November 19, 2001 02:17 AM
William -- a very sobering analysis -- especially in light of
world events of late. I will have to do some thinking on
your ideas.
Dottie
"You can't say poetry should be about something or
shouldn't be about something. Poems are, the poem is,
and that's all there is to it." Alan Dugan, two time winner
of the NBA, Poetry
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (41 of 41),
Read 8 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Theresa Simpson theresa.a.simpson@gte.net
Date:
Monday, November 19, 2001 03:42 AM
It's been quite a while since I read this, so it's a all a bit
hazy. But as for the title, I think it's a reference to the
make believe games the narrator and his childhood friend
paly ( you know, let's be cowboys; now let's be orphans).
This would tie into the unreliable narrator theme.
The detective bit is about joisting, rather shadow-boxing,
with the truth. And the narrator doesn't fit in in England
(we're given ample clues that he was an outcast at
school), because he is an outsider, despite his outward
appearance of conformity. He is the inverse of Ishiguro,
who came to England at about age 3 or 4 - and speaks,
behaves very much the Englishman. But no doubt did not
"fit in" at school due to his appearance. And no doubt
would also have trouble moving back to Japan - which I've
heard is not altogether welcoming of Japanese who have
spent years abroad.
Theresa
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused. Elvis
Costello
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (42 of 44),
Read 19 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Edward Houghton eddh@pacbell.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 21, 2001 03:55 PM
I am willing to believe that Christopher's story is credible
until Sara married Sir Cecil and moves off to Shanghai (not
the more famous Shanghi in Alabama, of course, but the
one in China). Was it his inability to attract the beautiful
Sara that sent him over the edge? He was sure at first
that he only had to become famous in order to acquire
her favors. But he is a bit of a cold fish. Of course, I'm not
sure where he goes off the deep end. That's the problem,
and the fun with an imperfect narrator, anything is
possible.
The trip to Shanghai, I feel, is either part of a mental
breakdown or even those types of a dream that come
from an opium pipe. Nothing I can think of supports this,
except for the incessant talk of the opium trade. But there
are descriptions in literature, Hammet's books for
instance, that are very similar.
He seems a different, more rational person, when he
meets Uncle Philip. Was this real and did he actually travel
to Shanghai? Again, I'm not sure; but old Uncle Philip
does have some logical answers. The father took off, plain
and simple. Not too dramatic, but a too common
occurrence. The mother being kidnapped and nobody
doing anything about it seem a bit too much. But this is all
necessary in order to provide a background for Puffin
finding his mother in China. Assuming she was his mother.
Mother or not, discovering her, puts a finis to
Christopher's search.
The girl, Jenny, is a bit of a puzzle. She does add another
orphan to the story. Do we have a surfeit of orphans? But
why? Old Christopher doesn't seem to have any lust
going. Maybe he is just compassionate for another fellow
orphan. But sending her off to a boarding school doesn't
seem to me to improve her situation. Wasn't this common
with the British upper class? Nobody went to a real school
where common people sent their kids. In fact, why didn't
Christopher get sent back to England for his education?
Overall, I thought this an enjoyable read. The dialogue
seemed to fit the period and my idea of how the English
sophisticates would talk. While the opium trade was
denigrated in the book, wasn't there a legal trade going
on? Is the trade Ishiguro speaks of only the illegal portion
of the trade?
And on a lighter note, isn't Christoper Banks a
department store chain or a line of men's clothes?
EDD
"The old man sat alone in the shadow of the Dragon's
Teeth and watched the coming darkness chase the
daylight west."
THE SCIONS OF SHANNARA by Terry Brooks.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (43 of 44),
Read 17 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 21, 2001 04:10 PM
Edd: I enjoyed your note. Thanks for plugging the "other"
Shanghai...{G}
I thought the name Christopher Banks sounded familiar
but I couldn't quite place it. An internet search shows a
women's clothier named Christopher & Banks, and its
big-and-tall line sells as C.J. Banks.
>>Dale, 35 miles southeast of Shanghi, Ala.
Topic:
When We Were Orphans by Kazuo Ishiguro (44 of 44),
Read 18 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 21, 2001 04:11 PM
Good thought on Jennie, Edd. Come to think of it what is
she doing there? It didn't seem as if he had really much
interest in her.
And am I dreaming, or wasn't there a reference to "the
woman who became my wife" someplace in the first half
of the book. I know I kept waiting for the wife to show
up.
Ruth
Ruth
Chi mangia bene, mangia Italiano
Topic:
When We Were Orphans con't. (1 of 4), Read 27 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Friday, March 01, 2002 01:48 PM
I finished the book yesterday and am wishing I had
found the time to read it for the discussion. I hope some
of you are up for a bit more.
The questions of Jennifer and the title were two of the
last points discussed.
It seems to me that Jennifer is the self-possessed child
Banks always thought himself to be. She fulfills that
need for him. She is able to put the pieces together
again, just as Banks wants to do. She provides his
security and encouragement. Most significantly,
Christopher writes of her, after she has grown, "...she
was still tending to regard me as some sort of invalid,
especially whenever the past, or else the Far East,
re-emerged in my life." Here, finally, is someone who has
stayed around long enough to provide some consistency
and security for him.
I think Jennifer was his own creation, set up to be a kind
of resource for him to draw on for facing events. She's a
child, but seems to have come to terms with the reality
of her situation, even while still mourning her parents.
Banks is particularly moved when she says, "When
you're at school, sometimes, you forget. Just sometimes.
You count the days until the holidays like the other girls
do, and then you think you'll see Mother and Papa
again."
Christopher writes, "Even in these circumstances, it still
came as a surprise to hear her mention her parents. I
waited for her to say more but she did not; she simply
gazed up at me as though she had just put to me a
question." Is Jennifer asking for support or giving it? She
seems wise beyond her years.
Her need for remembering strikes a chord with Banks, I
think, especially since she seems to have moved on in
spite of her grief. Christopher has not been able to do
that.
Banks is up front about his need to resolve his childhood
loss with his adult life. The memoir is a means of
achieving that. How much is fantasy and how much is
real is irrelevant. By the end of the book, he is satisfied
with his story. Whether the reader is or not, isn't really
important, I don't think.
The book is about how all adults are orphans from the
foreign land of their childhoods. That's the world where
no one gets hurt or disappears. It's where we live when
all is right with the world.
"The colonel nodded. "Our childhood seems so far away
now. All this" - he gestured out of the vehicle - "so much
suffering. One of our Japanese poets, ........wrote of how
sad this was. She wrote of how our childhood becomes
like a foreign land once we have grown." Is this a
parallel to the International Village in Shanghai?
"Well, Colonel, it's hardly a foreign land to me. In many
ways, it's where I've continued to live all my life. It's
only now I've started to make my journey from it."
Christopher is well aware of what his task is. I think in
some ways, we are all orphans as adults. We each have
feelings of guilt and yearning for what was, or could
have been. Banks' guilt needs forgiveness from his
mother for not having found her sooner. He was so
young at the time of her loss, but he held himself
responsible for having left her at home alone.
"Supposing this boy of yours, this Puffin. Supposing you
discovered he'd tried his best, tried with everything he
had to find you, even if in the end he couldn't. If you
knew that, do you suppose.....do you suppose you'd be
able to forgive him?" The poignancy of that question
makes my heart ache.
The title is for all of us. We are all orphans from
childhood at some point in our lives. Sometimes we cope
and move on, by whatever means, and sometimes we
are permanently stunted by our loss. Phrasing the title in
the past tense indicates Christopher has finally come to
terms and has moved on.
Banks is taking care of himself by creating the fantasy of
his search. He invents characters, most of whom are also
lost in some way, to work his way to an acceptable
resolution. I say, "more power to him."
K
Topic:
When We Were Orphans con't. (2 of 4), Read 25 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Friday, March 01, 2002 03:22 PM
Kay -- what a wonderful post on this -- and it really
struck a very deep chord with me. I was looking for my
Girl With A Pearl Earring the other day -- again -- still
haven't figured out where it vanished to -- but When We
Were Orphans didn't want me to put it down -- and I
fanned through it and looked at it a bit. The story haunts
me -- and I might go scan a bit.
but to begin -- I repeat that I enjoyed your analysis here
-- and think you are onto something about how CB drew
the tale in order to meet his own needs for the loss of
his childhood -- whether or not, as you point out the tale
is accurate matters only to himself.
Dottie
The stream of time is carrying us forward; we live
between yesterday and tomorrow. Lin Yutang
Topic:
When We Were Orphans con't. (3 of 4), Read 18 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Friday, March 01, 2002 07:48 PM
I echo Dottie, Kay. Great analysis. I like the idea of the
universal theme "all adults are orphans from the foreign
land of their childhoods." It really pulls the book together
for me.
Ruth
"Writing is like prostitution. First you do it for the love of it,
then you do it for a few friends, then you do it for money."
Moliere
Topic:
When We Were Orphans con't. (4 of 4), Read 21 times
Conf:
Reading List
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Saturday, March 02, 2002 09:46 AM
Thanks.
When I step back even further, the story seems exactly
like the pretend games Akira and Christopher played - all
sorts of magical jumps and twists to make the play
acting fit their needs.
That aspect alerted us to the surreal quality of his
"memoir."
One of the most poignant scenes for me was when his
chums gave him a magnifying glass. They meant it as a
joke, but Christopher latched onto it immediately. It's
interesting how that glass kept appearing in his cases.
In effect, he's putting his childhood under the
microscope. I was intrigued by how he would spend
hours in some deserted spot, absorbed in his
investigation with that magnifying glass. Then, he would
miraculously pop up and solve a case that had totally
stymied the experts. That has the ring of fantasy. No
details. No explanation of the logic. But, by George, he'd
solved the case.
This book haunts me too, Dottie. I ache for that child and
root for his attempts to grow up and move on.
How similar is REMAINS OF THE DAY? Someone
mentioned the narrator there was also unreliable,
though he is forced to come to terms with the
discrepancies. Somehow, I hope Christopher isn't forced
to. He seems like such a fragile person.
K
|
Kazuo Ishiguro
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