To: ALL Date: 07/31
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 2:08 AM
Re: SUTTREE
All,
Let's get rolling on this book. I want to know what you
thik of it. I don't have much to add to my post of several
weeks ago, but I promise to repost it as soon as my computer
returns from the shop, where its horrendous squealing noise
is being eliminated.
One thing: Agee's A DEATH IN THE FAMILY is considered by
most to be THE Knoxville book, at least pre-SUTTREE. Some
of you may want to compare the prologues of the two books.
Seems as though McCarthy's playing on what Agee does in the
beginning of his novel.
Bill Spencer wrote a rather fascinating piece on SUTTREE
that he presented at the Conference; called "The Excremental
Vision of Cormac McCarthy," (precis on website) it
illustrates some of the fecal imagery in the book and makes
a fairly good argument that this persistent imagery MEANS
something. What do you guys think? I'll be reading
along...and look for real people; evidently there are quite
a few of them. You might even point them out.--IDJP
=============== Reply 1 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/02
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 1:09 AM
SUTTREE: The first post redux
All,
I don't think it's quite time for this post yet, but I'm
feeling particularly irrepressible this evening, so here
goes. (Actually, I think it'll be good to have this post
out there for a few days (at least) before anyone tackles
this book.)
Were I teaching a class in Southern literature, I would
most probably assign McCarthy's SUTTREE in close proximity
to Faulkner's THE SOUND AND THE FURY, which really breaks
the chronology of my hypothetical course. But the two
writers are worth comparison, so I suspect that it's quite
good that we're reading SUTTREE immediately after we've
finished the Faulkner.
Now, there are several things that need to be said about
SUTTREE. One is that it taps into the great tradition of
American sea novels--if you stretch the convention enough
to include Twain's HUCKLEBERRY FINN, then SUTTREE goes
right along. Another is that this is unquestionably
McCarthy's funniest book. Yet another is that SUTTREE is
an example of what McCarthy is capable of doing with a
literate protagonist. Cornelius Suttree appears to be
college-educated, unlike any of McCarthy's other
main characters. Some have said that Suttree is McCarthy,
and some others have disagreed, but it's taken as fact that
McCarthy lived the sort of life Suttree does for years
before he quit drinking. When asked why he quit drinking,
McCarthy replied that all the people he wrote about in that
book were dead.
Now, as always, the big question comes up. On the vanguard
of the deconstructionists is Vereen Bell, who began by
arguing that SUTTREE is (like BLOOD MERIDIAN) in some sense
nihilistic, that the book is essentially an exercise in
some sort of anti-symbolism. The symbols and references
are in the book, they simply don't have any coherent
meaning and were in fact put there to mislead the reader.
Or at least, that's how I read Bell's thesis.
Bell et. al. are opposed by Edwin T. Arnold & Co., who
argue that SUTTREE is McCarthy's most religious book, a
work deeply concerned with theology and etc. I lean toward
Arnold's view, but that may be because I am inherently
opposed to the concept of a writer who writes with a callow
disregard for meaning in his words. In my opinion, words
are the coin of the realm for any writer, and writing to
confuse seems to me to be counter-productive, and it
devalues the writer's tools. Kind of like saying that
you've got to go beat the axe against a rock somewhere and
dull the blade before you chop the wood.
One more thing to be careful of...the book is long and
contains many characters (by one count over one hundred
named). and many of those have multiple nicknames. So
keeping folks straight is difficult sometimes. I'll do
what I can in this regard, but I'm making no promises.
Still, the bountiful resources of the Cormac McCarthy
Society are at my beck and call. If we can't figure it
out, I can find someone--quickly--who can.
I don't know if this note is the commencement of the
discussion or not; the conference for Southern Writers and
Southern Writing is the last week of this month, and I
should come back from there with many new thoughts about
SUTTREE and McCarthy's Southern books in general. And I'll
also come back having presented a paper there myself on
McCarthy's OUTER DARK.
--The Irrepressible DJP 7/15/96 4:33AM CT
=============== Reply 2 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/02
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:48 PM
Marty,
Since I am the one who asked you to hold off on this note, I
want to tell you that I am very glad that you repeated it
for us now. I am on page 90 and am enjoying this book.
Oftentimes, I read when I am having a meal, so I was
"oh-so-happy" that I read about Suttree's drunkenness, where
he throws up on himself and the vomit dries on his clothes,
in the middle of the afternoon. It was interesting but not
very appetizing. I found the episode about Harrogate and
the watermelons to be hysterical. It makes me want to give
up eating watermelons! Also, thank you for mentioning that
the great number of characters is confusing. I can't keep
Suttree's drinking buddies straight yet. J-bone is Jimmy, I
think. Another great recommendation! Jane in toasty
Colorado.
=============== Reply 3 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/02
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 11:10 PM
I'll be there soon, folks. Puff, puff. Marty, you'll be
horrified to know that the Public Library of the City of
Redlands (population pushing 60,000) only has 2 McCarthy
books. And neither of them are SUTTREE. I've ordered it
from my friend-with-a-bookstore and should have it by
Tuesday. Then I'll play catchup. Puff, puff.
Ruth
=============== Reply 4 of Note 7 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/04
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 6:58 PM
Ruth,
It is well worth the read. What writing! Jane
=============== Reply 5 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/04
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 7:09 PM
Just wanted to share with you my most recent, favorite quote
from 'Suttree', in which Hazlewood, aka 'Worm', describes a
most memorable hang-over:
"The last time I drank some of that shit I like to died. I
stunk from the inside out. I laid in a tub of hot water all
day and climbed out and dried and you could still smell it.
I had to burn my clothes. I had the dry heaves, the drizzlin
shits, the cold shakes and the jakeleg. I can think about it
now and feel bad."
Dick in Alaska, where his hands are shaking from the other
guy's experience
P.S. Anybody got a good explanation for 'tush hogs'? My
Dict. of Amer. Slang says 'tush' was black slang for a
light-skinned black or mulatto; also for highbrow and ritzy.
Nothing on the useage 'tush hog' however. Could be like
'sweat hogs' from the famous TV show.
=============== Reply 6 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/04
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 9:41 PM
Dick in Alaska: Bless your heart, as we say hereabouts, for
fixing on one of my favorite passages from SUTTREE. No
failure to communicate, here. This level of descriptive
language is matched, yea exceeded, by the Ultimate Bar Fight
in Part II of SUTTREE, if I may say. (Watch for the "carpet
sweeper" exchange, redux, i.e. at the hospital.)
Who but Cormac, I ask, could pull off such a seamless
paean to the sacred and profane in a single volume?
BTW, your horrible experience with out-of-hand Southern
wedding parties made my ears especially perk up to an
Associated Press item in our local paper this week: a new
bride goes to jail, charged with assaulting a police officer
after her post-wedding dance got out-of-hand. The location?
A suburb in MASSACHUSETTS.
Alas, it appears that both eloquence of language and
tackiness of behavior know no bounds, if they ever did.
>>Dale in Ala., trying to export one but not the other
=============== Reply 7 of Note 7 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 08/05
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:48 PM
Hi fellow readers,
After just having finished the first 200 pages of SUTTREE, I
have been pondering the main character. Here is a man who
goes out in frigid weather to check on his indigent friends
but who has abandonned his wife and child. This is a man
who is kind to small children he meets along the river, and
the same man kicks his mother-in-law in the head when she
attacks him after the death of his child. I feel that
McCarthy is slowly unwinding this character and that I don't
really know him yet.
As Sir Richard says, the drinking scenes are so vivid that
you feel like you were right there with them.
I also loved this description of the frigid day - p. 168
"This winter come, gray season here in the welter of
sootstained fog hanging over the city like a biblical curse,
cheerless medium in which the landscape blears like Atlantis
on her lightless seafloor dimly through eel's eyes." This
is a perfect description of Denver on a day when it is ten
degrees below zero and when the pollution is hanging heavy
over the city.
Jane who has thankfully never been hit with a floor buffer.
=============== Reply 8 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/05
From: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Time: 11:01 PM
Dick,
Re "tush hogs," I believe "tush" refers to the elongated
canines on feral hogs, who had been undomesticated long
enough for the teeth to grow into formidable weapons.
Br'er Short may be able to correct or amend my defintion.
Felix Miller
pass the tequila, mother, the apaches are re-grouping.
8/5/96 10:51PM ET
=============== Reply 9 of Note 7 =================
To: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Date: 08/06
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 1:41 AM
I always thought tush was a Yiddish euphemism for what we
all sit on (I dare not say the word....)
Theresa
P.S. to Felix - I think you've had enough of that tequila,
pal. Watch out you don't get 86'd before the Apaches even
arrive.
=============== Reply 10 of Note 7 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 08/06
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 9:36 AM
Lol, Theresa...I was getting ready to make a comment to
Felix about that tequila as well, but your's was much
better. It always makes me smile at the end of Felix's
notes though.
Well, folks, I have finally (drum roll...) finished WAR
AND PEACE (trumpets blarring, flags waving.) Wouldn't have
missed it for the world and am reading bits of the bio of
Tolstoy that I have because I still haven't lost my
fascination for that man.
However...the one drawback this book has is that it took
a lot of time away from all the other books I wanted to
read. Will now be starting SUTTREE in between bites of the
Tolstoy bio while I go through withdrawal from the man.
Hope to be posting soon. Barb
=============== Reply 11 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/06
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 12:01 PM
Barb: You're going to like 'Suttree' I think, but fair
warning: because of this book, you may never again be able
to say the phrase "melon ball" without giggling.
Dick in Alaska, where puberty is bereft of melon patches
=============== Reply 12 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/06
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 3:02 PM
Okay...so what do you all think of Harrogate, other than
that his character is sort of, well...fruity .
He seems always to be getting in trouble. Suttree keeps
having to rescue him.
and...what of the language in this book? It's obviously a
presence, but is it a "theme" or even a "character"? Or
does that designation go to the city itself?
And what about Faulkner's influence here?
--IDJP
=============== Reply 13 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/06
From: FNMN56E LYNN EVANS Time: 3:51 PM
Although I haven't read Suttree (oh, a few opening pages
perhaps), I've certainly heard about the watermelon scene. I
gotta say, though, for this scene to be as outrageous as
it's been made out to be, I think Suttree should put a
bonnet on the melon and take it home to meet mother. Just an
opinion, of course. Lynn
=============== Reply 14 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/06
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 10:15 PM
Marty: I'm not far enough in to really make much young
Master Harrowgate -- so far he just seems like an awkward
oaf with a passion for fresh fruit. His experience in the
work camp seems very reminiscent of any other young man's
first experience in 'the real world', be it the military,
the forecastle of a ship, or a logging camp. Guy stuff.
Lot's of cussin' and scratchin'. Get drunk. Knock each other
down. Like that.
The language is very rich -- I do think McCarthy comes close
to overdoing his Faulknerian darkness, with all the six-bit
words, when that is put right up alongside the most
delightful, countrified redneck, downhome, bullshit dialect
I've read in a long time. Reminds me of a good many
relatives, actually. I'm still not sure I'm in focus here as
to what's going on novelwise: the arcane, obscure narrator,
floating like a dark camera over everything; the educated,
but by-god-simple-and-unprentious Suttree; the city (good
point you raise -- it does seem to be a separate character)
which looks like it was taken out of a Soviet propaganda
film circa 1950. But it's funny and it's fun -- good pick.
So far the main thing that reminds me of Faulkner is the
sheer richness of the language. McCarthy is more cinematic
to me; Faulkner more self-consciously 'literary' with the
shifts in point of view, obscure changes in narrator, etc.
But what the heck -- I've got several hundred pages to go,
so I could change my mind several times here.
Dick in Alaska, with NOT enough time to read recently
=============== Reply 15 of Note 7 =================
To: FNMN56E LYNN EVANS Date: 08/06
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 10:16 PM
Lynn: I don't know about outrageous, exactly, but the
dialogue between the two good ol' boys about what they seen
in that melon patch is as funny as anything I've read in
recent memory. Laughed till my belly hurt.
Dick, boiling his melons
=============== Reply 16 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/06
From: FFFC21B TOM OREM Time: 10:40 PM
Marty: I'm coming on late, via Peggy's recommendation, but
SUTTREE is like #10 on my list of all-time favorites. It's
been awhile but I especially love the watermelon scene, the
scene where Harrogate tried collecting like $40 for killing
bats, and the scene where he uses gum to steal dimes from a
blind beggar. The beggar's comment upon realizing he's being
robbed is timeless.
The Faulkner influence IMHO is in the stark description and
the use of POV. As a writer I have learned far more from
Faulkner than anyone, McCarthy (have read all his books) in
the second tier with Papa and F. Scott. Tom
=============== Reply 17 of Note 7 =================
To: FFFC21B TOM OREM Date: 08/07
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 0:41 AM
All, I just picked up Suttree from the bookstore this
afternoon. So far I've only read the first page of the
introduction. It is pure poetry. Take that first
paragraph, put in a few line breaks, and you've got a poem
as good as any I've read lately.
Dear friend, now
in the dusty clockless hours of the town
when the streets lie black and steaming
in the wake of the watertrucks and now
when the drunk and the homeless
have washed up in the lee of walls
in alleys or abandoned lots
and cats go forth highshouldered and lean
in the grim perimeters about, now
in these sootblacked brick or cobbled corridors
where lightwire shadows
make a gothic harp of cellar doors
no soul shall walk but you.
All I can say is, Wow!
Ruth, heading back to her reading
=============== Reply 18 of Note 7 =================
To: FNMN56E LYNN EVANS Date: 08/07
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 2:49 AM
Lynn,
You really need to READ the watermelon scene, and a few
pages after. Harrogate winds up in prison, and there's some
talk of what might one day happen to the melons; I cannot
post the excerpt here.
--IDJP
=============== Reply 19 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/07
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 2:53 AM
Dick,
If you're not too far into the novel, you'll probably change
your mind...somewhat...about the Faulkner influence.
also, watch for McCarthy's ever-pervasive doubling of his
main character.
And since you've read BLOOD MERIDIAN, how do you think this
one compares? There's some discussion as to which of those
books (BLOOD MERIDIAN or SUTTREE) is his best. I change my
mind daily. --IDJP
=============== Reply 20 of Note 7 =================
To: FFFC21B TOM OREM Date: 08/07
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 2:56 AM
Well, Tom,
welcome to the party. Hopefully this will be going on for a
while.
And...just because I feel like asking everyone, what's the
purpose of all this laughter in this book? The book's dark
tone is not lost because of the humor, but everyone knows
why we have tragedy--to uplift the soul and all that.
What's the POINT of comedy writing like this?
--IDJP
=============== Reply 21 of Note 7 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/07
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 3:00 AM
Ruth,
How right you are. I think it's possible, and we discussed
last weekend in Oxford, that McCarthy OUGHT to be regarded
as one of the great poets of the last half century even
though he's writing prose. One critic said of BLOOD
MERIDIAN, for example, that it was the "achievement of epic
poetry in prose." Right he is, too. But SUTTREE belongs in
a different group. It's no epic poem. Something else.
Something poetic. And something funny. Very funny indeed.
--IDJP
=============== Reply 22 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/07
From: FNMN56E LYNN EVANS Time: 9:01 AM
Sorry, Marty, I was really just teasing a little. But I
shouldn't do that with Cormac, huh? (One day I will read the
book. Promise.) Lynn
=============== Reply 23 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/07
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 11:43 AM
Well, I've finally read the famous watermelon scene and I
can certainly see now what the talk has all been about.
Has McCarthy ever given a clue about the genesis of his
idea for this scene? I was sitting in the parking lot
outside my son's swimming practice pool helplessly laughing
this morning. I'm waiting to read this one to my husband
when he gets home from work tonight.
Ruth, I had the same feeling concerning that opening
part. My brother (the first person to tell me about
McCarthy and a continuing admirer) has always recommended
that McCarthy be read aloud and I understand why now.
Marty, I need to write to him to make sure, but I think
Bruce always thought that SUTTREE was the best book. I
know that when you all were reading BLOOD MERIDIAN, he
recommended that I start with SUTTREE instead.
Barb
=============== Reply 24 of Note 7 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/08
From: FFFC21B TOM OREM Time: 0:03 AM
Ruth: It's hard to tell who will and who won't appreciate
McCarthy: me, I write SF and drink beer while I do and
listen to Megadeth over it all and read McCarthy and
Faulkner and Papa and Fitzgerald when I take pause in my
writing.
I've read all McCarthy's books and I think of anyone with
at least seven he ranks highest among those with the lowest
highest score: I mean, Papa had a few bombs and Faulkner had
some you can't understand unless some divine force has
overtaken your mind and Fitzgerald didn't even write that
many. The only time I was ever disappointed with McCarthy
was with THE CROSSING and then only because it wasn't as
good as HORSES. But then, for my money, the only book I've
ever read as good as HORSES is TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD.
Fitzgerald romantices the upper stratum and Papa the average
Joe and Faulkner shows the Southern, lower class in everyday
life but McCarthy provides a unique perspective on the
overlooked and ignored segment of American society that
lives on the fringe and oft-times outside what the middle
class observes and acknowledges. I sometimes think he
compares more to James Joyce than Faulkner.
Tom
=============== Reply 25 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/08
From: FFFC21B TOM OREM Time: 0:10 AM
Marty: The purpose of humor? Harrogate is a comical person.
If I were to meet McCarthy in person I'd suspect he'd have
quite a dry sense of humor, from his writings.
Favorites:
HORSES
SUTTREE
BLOOD MERIDIAN
THE CROSSING
OUTER DARK
CHILD OF GOD
THE ORCHARD KEEPER. Tom
=============== Reply 26 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/08
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 1:43 AM
Marty: I'm awfully impressed at what good questions you have
about some of this stuff. For example, on the humor issue.
You suggested earlier I'd see more resemblence to Faulkner
as the book progresses; so far (at page 125 or so) I'm still
not all that convinced, but proceeding with an open mind.
But, while I watch for Faulkner I'm MORE struck by how
fundamentally different McCarthy is -- and the humor is the
key element of difference. Now you all know that if a little
knowledge about Faulkner is a dangerous thing, then the
entire world is in danger from me. However, based on my
limited exposures, there is absolutely nothing in Faulkner
that compares to McCarthy's use of humor -- down home,
good old boy, dirtball humor of the very sort I learned at
my father's and grandfather's knees. And, the more I think
about it, the more I'm convinced that was one factor that
put me off 'The Sound and the Fury' and 'Sanctuary' -- the
totally humorless quality of the characters. I understand
that in comparison, 'As I Lay Dying' is a real knee-slapper,
but I had to put a hold on that one (a) to read Suttree
before Marty went back to school and (b) because that art
book Ruth subliminally forced me to buy is soaking up LOADS
of reading time (Honestly, folks, go to the library and
check out Skostad's 'Art History'; what a great volume; I
spent lunch hour learning that French cathedrals have groins
too. I'm dying to get to the next chapter and find out if,
for example, Notre Dame could suffer a groin poule....)
Anyway, did McCarthy set out to demonstrate you could write
like WMF AND get the laughs? Whatever his reasons, I can
sure relate better to this dialogue and these characters
than I could with old Billy. 'Course, I'm a Yankee, and
Tennessee IS a border state. Maybe it's some kind of
cultural deal.
Miscellaneous points: Interesting how McCarthy draws out the
tension of the fishing stories -- he pulls his trot-lines at
the very beginning of the story, but doesn't gut or clean
his fish for sixty pages or so. I don't know about the rest
of you but I was in a literarily-induced salomonellic
seizure by the time he got 'em headed, gutted and sold. I
couldn't let it go -- "What happened to the fish?" Anybody
else feel that, or have I just lived near salt water for too
long? Also, the second time he pulled his lines (after the
unforgettable Cafe Odeur scene, after the screaming drunk in
the black whore-house scene, and after the drizzling shits,
cold shakes and jake-leg in the jailhouse scene, to name
just a few) he THROWS AWAY DEAD FISH. Now, the last time I
fished for cats down in that neck of the woods, dead fish
had a name: BAIT. The deader and smellier the better.
Question: Did Cormac finally make a tiny little mistake
here, or, is it going to be accounted for in his typically
meticulous, anal retentive fashion?
Other miscellany: Boy, this guy can really write. I like
'Suttree' better than 'Blood Meridian' simply because it's
more fun; whether that makes it a better book, I dunno --
clearly of the two, BM is the three and a half double
reverse gainer into the Piranha pool, from some sort of
technical literary viewpoint -- a book worth 9.9, even on
the scorecard of an unrepenetant Cuban communist. But
doesn't being fun to read count for a lot as well?
Finally, Harrowgate -- what a doof. Clearly I overrated him
in the early going. But he is a wonderful character,
provided you don't have to be around him in person. His
sojourn through the back alleys of Knoxville, in search of
Suttree, is a classic Odessey. So many wonderful,
unforgettable bits of detail and observation as he makes his
comic way through the flotsam and jetsam of effluvial
Knoxville.
In sum: Thanks for a great recommendation, Marty -- looking
foward to the New Year's Eve, "CR Year in Review" post,
where I can salute all these great books. Dick in Ak
=============== Reply 27 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/08
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 12:53 PM
Marty: I was thinking this morning: if Forrest Gump had been
just a little dumber, he'd be the spit of old Harrowgate.
'Course Forrest had better quality folks than Gene did, so I
guess environment counts for a lot.
Dick in Alaska, trying to imagine how and why a name like
'Oceanfrog' would come about
=============== Reply 28 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/08
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 1:53 PM
Okay, folks, you're not going to believe this, but when I
got to the famous watermelon scene I was seated in the
kitchen, eating lunch, which was, you guessed it! But
speaking of that scene, don't any of you remember the famous
liver scene in Portnoy's Complaint? Anyhoo, I'm plowing
ahead with Suttree, but geepers, this book just don't read
fast.
Ruth
=============== Reply 29 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/08
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 3:33 PM
Dick,
I'm still in prison with Harrowgate and Suttree.
However, I am so glad to hear that (at least as far as you
are), McCarthy doesn't give him a hero's slant. Don't you
know this guy? I knew a number of Harrowgates in Indiana.
He's just a small adolescent guy, without a lot of brains,
who is looking out for himself. That scene in prison where
Slusser gets mad at him because he wouldn't stop working on
the ring, which involves Suttree, then Callahan and
eventually gets the hole for Callahan and god knows what
for Slusser was a classic. When Suttree warns him about
what is going to happen when Slusser gets out, he just says
he'll be okay if Callahan gets out first...I mean, who
cares if Callahan ended up in the hold because of him?
And, I love Suttree's assessment of him at that point:
***
Suttree looked at him. He was not lovable. This
adenoidal leptosome that crouched above his bed like a
wizened bird, his razorous shoulderblades jutting in the
thin cloth of his striped shirt. Sly, rat-faced, a
convicted pervert of botanical bent. Who would do worse
when in the world again. Bet on it. But something in him
so transparent, so vulnerable.
***
I can absolutely see him.
Lynn, you need to read this book...I have a feeling that
you would like it. Barb
=============== Reply 30 of Note 7 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/08
From: FNMN56E LYNN EVANS Time: 8:50 PM
I liked the My Sin scene in Portnoy's Complaint.
=============== Reply 31 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/08
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 11:07 PM
HARROGATE
I am interested in the fact that everyone calls Harrogate
"the city mouse", and then along about p. 270, Suttree calls
him "the city rat". I may be wrong, but I think that a city
mouse seems much nicer than a city rat, so has H. sunk in
S.'s estimation?
If H. spent the time that he uses to cook up his
preposterous plans in working, he would have a steady
income. When you get to the part about the tunnels under
Knoxville, you will see what I mean.
>>>>>>
When you get to Suttree's trek through North Carolina,tell
me if it reminds you of the characters in BLOOD M., THE
CROSSING, and ALL THE PRETTY HORSES. There are similar
scenes where the characters are wandering around the hills
of Mexico with no money and no food.
I am also wondering about Suttree's visits to his boyhood
home and to his school. Both buildings are in ruins, and I
am wondering why. Maybe McCarthy will tell us why later.
On p. 321, we finally find out why Suttree was in prison.
Great choice DJP. Jane who is on p.332 where the pages fly
by. There is little heavy language in this episode of S.'s
life.
=============== Reply 32 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/08
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 11:13 PM
Jane, I'm slogging along, but I'm not caught up in things
yet. I think I'm a little good-ol-boy humor deficient.
Ruth
=============== Reply 33 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/08
From: FFFC21B TOM OREM Time: 11:23 PM
Dick: For Faulkner and humor, try THE REIVERS. Tom
=============== Reply 34 of Note 7 =================
To: FFFC21B TOM OREM Date: 08/08
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 11:47 PM
Tom: Thanks for the tip and welcome. I'm kind of getting
into this Faulkner thing in sequence, more or less as his
literary career developed. The 'Reivers' is at the end,
right? And miles to go before I chuckle? Maybe I should
skip ahead and sample the fullness of the bottle, and not
just go with the young vintages. Also, perhaps, I should
stop fumbling with all these farfetched metaphors and
analogies, and go back to reading. Even, better, I should
stop talking to myself on line. So many choices, so little
conviction....
Dick in Alaska, preparing for a fishing trip
=============== Reply 35 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/09
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 2:27 AM
Jane,
Putting the boyhood home in ruins scene in the book seems to
me quite audacious a step on the part of McCarthy. I mean,
that was Faulkner's THING. And to even attempt it takes a
lot of gall post-Faulkner. The fact that it succeeds is
even more amazing.
--IDJP
=============== Reply 36 of Note 7 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/09
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 9:23 AM
Ruth, my one resolution about this book is that I will NOT
read it while I am eating! That drunk scene in which he
describes in detail the inside of the toilet, Harrogate
finding the human eye under the seat of the old car, etc.,
etc...in fact, I could use this book to cut my calorie
intake.
The scene at Howard Clevenger's store is one of my
favorites so far...the language was perfect. And, I liked
a lot of the interplay among the prisoners early on.
McCarthy's ear for dialogue is pretty outstanding and I
didn't expect that.
BTW, did anyone else have a reaction to that part where
Suttree's mother came to see him in prison and the
paragraph giving his reaction to sitting there looking at
her? It's the paragraph that begins with "See the hand
that nursed the serpeant." That little bit of softness in
contrast to the brittleness of the rest of that environment
was very striking.
Dick, your point that this is Tenn. was a good one for
me. I used to think that half of Muncie, Indiana, where I
grew up, was populated with residents of Tennessee who came
up to work in the factories. I do recognize these
guys...just didn't have McCarthy's lens to see them.
And, Ruth, hope you stick it out. I think you'll be glad
you did, in the end...if only for the language. I can't
find any examples this second, but think I'm going to start
underlining them (yes, I'm one of those folks). He so
frequently uses a single word that doesn't fit
grammatically, etc. but is so perfect to sum up exactly
what he wanted to say at that point.
Barb...who finally realized that
she was misspelling Harrogate
=============== Reply 37 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/09
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 10:48 AM
Barb: I'm interested at how familiar all the colloquialisms,
neologisms, syllogisms and/or euphemisms McCarthy uses are
to me, given the apparent distance been Knoxville and
Anchorage. Most of my immediate family is from Oklahoma
which is still quite a ways from Knoxville, but apparently
pretty close culturally and linguistically. Perhaps it's all
due to the intermediating effect of Arkansas, lying square
between the two states. A friend of mine from Little Rock
once described the difference between Oklahoma and Arkansas
as, "Y'all are just as mean and stupid as we'uns, 'cept
you're so damned PROUD of it." Who knows what evil could
have been loosed on the earth, if fate had made Oklahoma
a next door neighbor with Tennessee -- without the soft,
civilizing effect of the modest and humble people of
Arkansas, I shudder to think.
Anyway, it's a great read -- "Beavis & Butthead Get
Literary". In the meantime I'm off for a few days here,
taking the family into the wilderness to slaughter things.
I'll expect a full scale analysis of gastrointestinal humor
and the male mindset when I get back.
Dick marooned in Alaska
=============== Reply 38 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/09
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 3:54 PM
Barb and Dick,
I recognize some of the expressions in this book, because my
father's family is from rural Indiana. They say things like
"you'uns, we'uns, and us'uns" and "Looky here!"
Today I was brave and read this book during lunch as I was
munching my salmon patties and green salad at a neat little
place called THE HOUSE OF WINDSOR. On p. 359, we meet
Fernon and Vernon who kind of ressemble Larry, Darrel, and
Darrel of TV fame. I got a good chuckle out of these twins,
so Ruth, hang in there.
Jane who returns to work on Aug. 19.
=============== Reply 39 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/09
From: FFFC21B TOM OREM Time: 11:01 PM
Dick: Faulkner favorites:
THE REIVERS (funny)
THE LIGHT IN AUGUST
AS I LAY DYING
The Snopes Trilogy:
THE HAMLET
THE TOWN
THE MANSION
and, THE UNVANQUISHED.
Others are really dense. Tom
=============== Reply 40 of Note 7 =================
To: FFFC21B TOM OREM Date: 08/10
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 1:07 AM
Marty,
It's driving me nuts! I can't stand it when I don't know
how to pronounce names. Is it SUT-tree or Sut-TREE?
Ruth, into the final stretch
=============== Reply 41 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/10
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 3:33 AM
You know, I wonder if McCarthy's use of the word
"serpent"--I assume that was the word there, because I don't
know "serpeant" (but asuming a word in McCarthy doesn't
exist because I don't know it is a foolhardy thing)--could
possibly be a play on Lear's "How sharper than a serpent's
tooth to have a thankles child," or whatever that line is
exactly. just a thought.
--IDJP
=============== Reply 42 of Note 7 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/10
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 3:44 AM
Ruth,
Being from Tennessee, albeit the southwest corner instead of
the northeast corner, I'd venture to say that it's SUT-tree.
and that was the consensus of most of the McCarthy folks at
the Oxford thing. Still, Tennessee is a long and skinny
state, so it could be either way. I mean, it's not like
anyone's heard McCarthy read from the book or anything ,
so nobody really knows. Still, my vote is for SUT-tree,
especially since folks kep calling him "Sut."
a couple of comments: do any of you know of any...meaning
that could be gotten from that name? I mean, it seems like
an odd name. Is their any sort of etymological sense to it?
And...is there any passsage you've read anyplace similar to
"Are there dragons waiting in the wings of the world?" I
keep thinking about that sentence like it ought to tell me
something beyond its admittedly powerful poetic
implications.
But a close reading of McCarthy is, I guess, apt to drive a
body plumb crazy. The more I read him, the more convinced I
am that he's read practically EVERYTHING there is to read.
The allusiveness of his work is just amazing to me.
--IDJP
=============== Reply 43 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/10
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:53 AM
Wow, Marty, SUTTREE seems to be playing havoc with my
spelling abilities...I almost spelled the title with one t
and two r's today too! It is definitely serpent.
King Lear is one of the few Shakespearean plays with
which I'm familiar because I had a wonderful teacher in
college who immersed us in it in the second semester of
English Comp. Interesting place to study King Lear, don't
you think? I never understood quite how he got that plan
by the curriculum folks, but it sure worked for me.
In any case, I'm certain you're right about McCarthy's
source for that line. And, as you point these things out,
I am starting to understand how the study of his books
could extend into time ad infinitum. Please continue to
point them out to us as you know or learn them. That part
is fascinating and I rarely take the time to discover them
for myself. Hope you don't mind spoonfeeding us lazy folk!
Somewhat along the same line, I am finding that this is
not a book I read well in the waiting room of the
pediatrician, etc. I do need a quiet span of time to
immerse myself without the distraction of outside
conversations. Have been reading bits of a Tolstoy bio
in the other situations...this I can digest with other
sounds around me. Barb
=============== Reply 44 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/10
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 1:12 PM
Marty,
Okay, SUT-tree it is. And I can't make *anything* out of
it. But the "dragons" line I can say something about. I
wrote a poem a few years ago entitled Beyond Here There be
Dragons, which contained the line "I watched, and my heart
twisted as you stepped off the edge of the world." That
poem is unpublished so we can be fairly certain that
although McCarthy may have read practically everything there
is to read, he hasn't been reading me. He may, however,
have gotten that line from the same place I got my allusion.
On old, old maps of the world, when the mapmaker got to the
"edge" of the known world he would often give the warning
"Beyond here there be dragons."
Ruth, in California, another long state, although on a
slightly different scale and orientation
=============== Reply 45 of Note 7 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/10
From: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Time: 8:28 PM
Ruth
That "beyond here there be dragons" line always gives me
shivers!
Marty (and all): I can't remember if we discussed this
during the read of BLOOD MERIDIAN, but what is the motive
behind McCarthy's use of obscure words? I'm not
complaining (I LOVE my dictionary), but everything I've
learned as a proto-writer tells me it's wrong -- that it
breaks the "suspension of disbelief" and makes the reader
aware that he or she is reading. At one point I had to
look up three words in a single sentence (cupreous,
dacebright, and sprueless). And why "instanter" instead of
"instantly," when they mean exactly the same thing?
On the other hand, I am truly in awe of McCarthy's
descriptive prose. It would be very easy to get lost in his
world -- if I didn't have to stop and look up "littoral."
Peggy
PS -- Marty, if it was you who recommended Paul Simon's
"Rhythm of the Saints" -- thank you! It's my new favorite
CD.
=============== Reply 46 of Note 7 =================
To: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Date: 08/10
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 11:42 PM
Ruth, Thanks for asking the pronunciation question, because
I was wondering the same thing.
Peggy, I find that certain passages of this book flow like
the river that Suttree lives on. One example is the section
where S. goes up the river to help Reeves and his family
drag in mussels. Other passages, I have to read two or
three times to understand, and I also have to scurry for the
dictionary. And sometimes the word isn't there, much to my
frustration. It is a learning experience.
Marty, I am fascinated by the various ways that McCarthy
describes Blind Richard's eyes. Each one of them makes me
cringe, but the words are so vivid. As CR's, our eyes are
so important to us that it makes us especially uncomfortable
to read about blindness. Jane who is nearing page 400.
=============== Reply 47 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/11
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 2:04 AM
I made it through last night. Glad I stuck around for the
whole trip. It was easier going in the last third of the
book. Mostly I don't hesitate over the words. Just let 'em
flow over me, understanding comes from the context most of
the time. And I'm convinced McCarthy made some of them up.
So, now, Marty. What does it all mean? Why do we follow
this not-very-admirable man through these repetitious
happenings which seem to lead nowhere. I didn't have the
feeling that S was going to lead a much different life even
if he did leave Knoxville.
Ruth, recovering from the Great Western Power Outrage
=============== Reply 48 of Note 7 =================
To: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Date: 08/11
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 4:28 AM
First of all, that was me on the Paul Simon rec. It's a
great album.
As to McCarthy's use of obscure words, there's something to
say here. One of the book reviewers said that McCarthy used
big words to force his readers to slow down and pay
attention to what he is doing. This reviewer went on to say
that McCarthy's novels were not at all typical in terms of
narrative structure--that they tend to begin and move
steadily forward with no discernible climax or denoument,
etc. ...just to an ending. He thought the big words, then,
were an effort on McCarthy's part to literally alter the
pace of the books--to make the reader have to work to get at
the image or whatever so that it sticks.
When I took the dictionary to OUTER DARK, I found out that
almost all the unfamiliar words had to do with either things
religious or with birth--in many cases they were medical
terms. as the birth of a child is one of the big themes of
that book, I thought the use of those words was quite
significant.
There's another option, too. McCarthy is very much a
craftsman. And the way those words sound together,
especially when read aloud, is important. Very important.
seems to me that McCarthy's bringing a poet's ear to the
novel. Cadence and rhythm and all of that.
And oftentimes, no other word will do.
--IDJP
=============== Reply 49 of Note 7 =================
To: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Date: 08/11
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 4:33 AM
Another thing: I think McCarthy may be at pains to break the
suspension of disbelief in the reader. His work is
consciously artistic; by that I mean he's making sure that
you KNOW that he's writing a novel. The telling of the
story is in itself a point of the story. Expect to ========
some elaboration on this point re: THE CROSSING before I
leave for El Paso. There's a real tension in that book
between the achievements of the hero and the task of the
storyteller.
--IDJP
=============== Reply 50 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/11
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 4:38 AM
Jane,
Ah, yes, the blindness thing. It's all over McCarthy.
For one of the most disturbing scenes (for my money) in all
of literature, a scene that rivals the blinding scene in
KING LEAR, see THE CROSSING. It's another blinding scene,
and it's done brilliantly. Then the blind man speaks of
what it's like to be blind. Chilling.
I'd say more, but I'm not sure yet what to make of blindness
in McCarthy. In fact, I was planning to write a paper on
that very subject for one of these conferences, but it
proved to be too daunting a task for me given the
constraints of time. I feel a master's thesis in that
someplace, though.
--IDJP
=============== Reply 51 of Note 7 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/11
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 4:43 AM
Ruth,
I'm not sure myself what it all means. Look at my initial
post...the one I reposted earlier in this thread.
Some of the critics say it don't mean nothing at all .
Personally, I'm inclined to take them at their literal word
there--reading the double negative to say that SUTTREE
emphatically Does Mean Something.
What, I don't know. I wish I did. Any ideas?
--IDJP
=============== Reply 52 of Note 7 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/11
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 4:57 AM
Part of the reason we follow this not very admirable (or is
he after all quite admirable?) man is undoubtedly due to the
power of McCarthy's prose. Do you, in the final analysis,
CARE what happens to Suttree?
I think there's something noble in him, something
irrepressibly American that we identify with. Whether it's
independence or self-reliance or that continual searching
that we all do (or some other thing I can't put my finger
on), we can somehow relate to Suttree.
And what of the doubling, Suttree and antiSuttree, etc. that
happens throughout the book and throughout McCarthy's
writing generally, until (in SUTTREE, anyway) McCarthy says
that Suttree "came to see that there was one Suttree and one
Suttree only." I think that's absolutely pivotal.
and why all the humor in this essentially somber book?
In the answers to these questions or others like them lies
the meaning of this book. I'm not sure yet WHAT the answers
are.
Currently, I'd say that we followed Suttree on his journey
because Suttree had something to teach us. I wish I could
put into words what I think that is.
McCarthy's books keep me up nights trying to impose some
sort of meaning on them...a meaning that may not even be
there. Thus far, I've been unable to get much farther than
to believe that for McCarthy, the telling of the story as an
act--possibly an act of sacrifice on the part of the
writer--is AT LEAST as important as the story told. Cf. THE
CROSSING. I'd like to know what Dale (the writer) thinks of
this hare-brained idea of mine.
--IDJP
=============== Reply 53 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/11
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 3:22 PM
No, Marty, I don't really care what happens to Suttree. I
did at first. But after I saw the guy kick the footings out
from under himself over and over again, I didn't give a
damn.
As you said, I was very, very aware that I was watching the
author play with language. And play he does. Sometimes I
gloried in it, sometimes I wanted him to just get on with
things. I'm one of those vocabulary sponges and word-root
freaks, so the vocabulary didn't throw me too much, and a
lot of it's clear from the context. But that kind of
reading is slow-going, no matter what. It forces you to
apply the brakes to your rush to what-happens-next, and look
at the writing. It's a very self-conscious book.
Interesting that you should say that about McCarthy's
wanting us to be aware of the act of writing. I certainly
was. It reminds me of Jackson Pollock and how he felt his
paintings were important in that they were a record of the
act of painting.
I didn't, however, think this book was funny. Those poor,
ignorant, drunken, broken people are too pitiful to be
funny. And as I said before, I must be lacking the
good-ol-boy humor gene.
Ruth, in hot & sunny CA
=============== Reply 54 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/11
From: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Time: 7:34 PM
Marty
RE: the unfamiliar words -- I reached a similiar conclusion
this morning. "Alienization" is the word that came to
mind; as if McCarthy wanted the reader to realize that
Suttree's world is like nothing we've ever seen before,
where the fish aren't "coppery," they're "cupreous." Like a
visit to another world -- which it is.
And, no arguement here, it's beautiful. At no point do I
get the impression that McCarthy was working with a Super
Thesaurus under his elbow -- the words flow, and they work.
I just can't help but wonder at the mechanics of it all.
Peggy
=============== Reply 55 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/11
From: BUYS59A BARBARA HILL Time: 11:04 PM
There is a scene in the book where Suttree is talking to the
ragpicker that I thought after reading it that if the book
is "about" something that would be my guess as to what it
was about. This is the scene:
You told me once you believed in God.
The old man waved his hand. Maybe, he said. I got no
reason to think he believes in me. Oh I'd like to see him
for a minute if I could.
What would you say to him?
Well, I think I'd just tell him. I'd say: Wait a minute.
Wait just one minute befor you start in on me. Before you
say anything, there's just one think I'd like to know. And
he'll say: What's that? And then I'm goin to ast him: What
did you have me in that crapgame down there for anyway? I
couldn't put any part of it together.
Suttree smiled. What do you think he'll say?
The ragpicker spat and wiped his mouth. I don't believe he
can answer it, he said. I don't believe there is an answer.
B. Hill in Oregon
=============== Reply 56 of Note 7 =================
To: BUYS59A BARBARA HILL Date: 08/12
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 2:35 AM
Barbara, That's a wonderful quote and I do believe it may
be the very nugget of the book. I wonder how I let it slide
past me, especially since it captures my philosophy pretty
neatly.
Ruth
=============== Reply 57 of Note 7 =================
To: BUYS59A BARBARA HILL Date: 08/12
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:29 AM
Barb,
I marked that scene in my copy as something I really
liked, but didn't think of it as such a central point.
With thought now that I read your post, you may be right.
Thanks for posting it.
Barb M....who spent *all*
day Sunday reading SUTTREE
=============== Reply 58 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/12
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 12:20 PM
Barbara, Marty, et al: I may be going overboard here, but it
seemed to me that Suttree was a 24-kt Christ-figure. A man
who lived among the thieves and whores and drunks, who cared
for them, and yet had his terrible human side as well. He
certainly had disciples. And I think you can read the final
scenes as portraying Suttree's death, resurrection and final
entry onto a journey into a life completely beyond his
previous mortal existence.
On the other hand, it could just be a novel about a drunk.
Hard to tell with these literary things.
Dick in Alaska, returned from the wilderness unscathed
=============== Reply 59 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/12
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:55 PM
Dick, Barbara, Barbara, Ruth, and Marty,
You have given me alot to think about, and I thank you. I
have about twenty pages to read, and I can't get over how
often he mentions people's eyes. Besides Blind Richard (and
was I surprised to see that he had a wife), there is one-eye
d Doll. Marty, you are right! This would make a great
dissertation. Jane who will finish later tonight.
=============== Reply 60 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/12
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 11:37 PM
Jane: The blindness thing is certainly interesting. There is
a good deal in the Book of Jeremiah (e.g. 5:21) that bears
on this and more in 'Suttree'. Plus, did you catch the e.e.
cummings nod at the beginning of a chapter -- 'In just
spring...." Mr. McCarthy plays a great many games, all at
once.
Dick in Alaska, dining tonight on his kill
=============== Reply 61 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/13
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 0:25 AM
Dick,
as long as we're doing the allusion game, did you catch the
one to Frost's "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy evening"? It's
at the end of one of the chapters: "and Suttree with his
miles to go...."
--IDJP, thinking you're right about Suttree as Christ
figure. More or less, anyway.
=============== Reply 62 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/13
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 1:07 AM
Marty: I think there are at least four 'Suttrees' in there
-- the Suttree cum youthful Cormac McCarthy, the Suttree as
alienated intellectual, the Suttree as 'everyman' and the
Suttree as Christ figure. Now these figures swim in and out
of focus, combining and recombining, merging and separating,
at various places in the narrative -- the same character,
but in its different facets, relected back by the events
being described, and refracted by the angle of view of the
narrator-storyteller. Borrowing heavily from my favorite art
book, I think it is almost a cubist perspective -- at any
given moment, we see Suttree spread in unnatural perspective
on the narrative canvas -- fully but not necessarily clearly
revealed. And each viewpoint is simultaneously astonishing
in it's haunting similarity to other, still dissimilar,
views. In sum, I find the McCarthy more similar to
Ondaatje's work than I do Faulkner, although without
question there is much here that traces back to WF. Perhaps
the sameness between McCarthy and Ondaatje is that they are
essentially modern writers whereas WF seems flummoxed by the
transition into the 20th century -- somewhat like the
society in which he lived and wrote, perhaps. In sum,
however, while I can see similarities I don't see McCarthy
as derivative of any writer I know. He is an original -- for
good and ill. Personally, I've loved both the books we've
read by McCarthy. A remarkable writer -- if a tad prolix on
his more manic days. I shall have to wire ahead to
Nashville, and arrange for a suitably formidable martini to
be awaiting the IDJP, to salute his good taste in books.
Good job, Martin!
Dick in Alaska, where he did indeed note the Frost allusion,
and missed God knows how many others
=============== Reply 63 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/13
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:57 AM
Jane,
As long as we're talking about eyes, don't forget the doll's
eyes used as a good luck charm by the Indian fisherman. I'm
way behind on this book, as I seem to be travelling the
continent this month, going from California to Northern
Wisconsin and preparing to drive to Pennsylvania in a week.
YIKES! It seems I'm really good at detecting symbols, not so
good at interpreting them--or at least not taking the time
to try.
Sherry
=============== Reply 64 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/13
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 11:49 AM
Marty & All: I'm enjoying the discussion of SUTTREE, here.
Excellent choice, if I may say. Harrogate, God bless him, is
one of my favorite comic characters in all of fiction.
OK, humor me on this...
What if John Bradshaw and all the self-help guys are
wrong, and our true "Inner Child" is not some lovable,
beneficent cherub, but...HARROGATE?!
A disturbing thought, I know, but it has such an eerie
logic to me I don't think it should be dismissed out of
hand.
>>Dale's inner child, hogging his ID in Ala.
=============== Reply 65 of Note 7 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 08/13
From: FNMN56E LYNN EVANS Time: 11:54 AM
Dale -- Is your humor drier than I recall?! Either you're
proposing in all seriousness that John Bradshaw might have
got it wrong (egads!) or your humor has taken on a decidedly
midwestern, mountains-er-nice-but-they-sure-block-the-view
flavor... Lynn
=============== Reply 66 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/13
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 1:15 PM
Excellent notes. I am simply amazed at how much I
like this book when I've been avoiding McCarthy for so
long, despite my brother's urgings. I first read OUTER
DARK by McC. (because it was the only McCarthy my
library owned about 5 years ago) and, though I couldn't put
it down and it has stayed with me, it was so incredibly
dark that I had no wish to experience him again.
However, SUTTREE is so much easier for me to digest...and
it's not just the humor, though that helps. The language
here pulls me in...in the multitude of ways in which he
uses it.
On a more specific note, can anyone tell me the
derivation of "Give over, Graymalkin, there are horsemen on
the road with horns of fire, with withy roots"? It's on
pg. 282 of my Vintage International edition after he leaves
the dwarf witch's house.
The section in which S. finds the ragman dead was the
most touching since he confronted his mother in prison.
He seems so emotionally anesthetized that when he releases
pure feeling, it is extremely striking to me.
I've had to slow down after spending the whole day Sunday
reading this, due to the pressures of the rest of my life.
And, I think McCarthy's right...this is supposed to be read
a few pages at a time. The words and scenes lose some of
their impact when gulped. Barb
=============== Reply 67 of Note 7 =================
To: FNMN56E LYNN EVANS Date: 08/13
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 8:19 PM
Lynn-- Re: Harrogate as Inner Child, I was serious. For the
most part. Somewhat. Sort of. A little. I think. Sometimes,
it's hard to know for sure.
I rely daily on my patron saint, Ms. O'Connor, who spoketh
on the writer's art: "But how can I know what I think, till
I see what I said?"
And in the tradition of our great nation's great political
institutions, I'll amplify what I *really* meant after I
scan the general response.
>>Dale, planning to vote against General Response come
November...
=============== Reply 68 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/13
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 10:25 PM
Barb: That Graymalkin quote is a stunner -- I have no idea
where it comes from, if derived at all. Graymalkin is either
a cat or, more likely, the old lady herself. 'Give over'
seems to refer to her prophecy which she doesn't provide.
'Horsemen with horns of fire' is an incredible image, but
other than some vaguely similar stuff in the Book of Kings,
relating to Elijah and heading off to heaven (which could be
right, but isn't obvious) I can't find anything that fits.
The last part, 'with withy roots' is (in my copy, at least)
'with withy roods' -- i.e., with willow crosses. Putting it
all together, I read it as follows: Suttree is angry at the
old lady's failure to cough up a suitable fortune. He sees
her on the street, and in his high mystical mode, pronounces
doom upon her: 'Give me what I want old lady, there are
great forces loosed here, armed with terrible weapons.' And
Suttree walks away, his very tread shaking the earth beneath
the city. I mean, Suttree is REALLY pissed. Frankly, I think
he may internalize some of this stuff too much, but clearly
this isn't a mental health handbook.
Dick in Alaska, where a delicious summer just seems to go on
and on
=============== Reply 69 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/13
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 11:02 PM
Dick,
Thanks...good analysis, but don't you think that there's
got to be a literary basis for this *somewhere*?!?
"Graymalkin" just seems like too specific a name and the
images don't really fit with the language in that
particular section. Plus, McCarthy does like to make these
literary references.... But, I don't have a clue.
Without a doubt though, I am absolutely sure that this is
not a mental health handbook...have figured that much
out. Love the way you snuck that little observation
in at the end of your note. Barb
=============== Reply 70 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/14
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 0:23 AM
Barb: 'Graymalkin' is a synonym for a cat; likewise an old
woman or crone. The capitalization stumps me however.
Dick in Alaska, lexicographically aground
=============== Reply 71 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/14
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 11:14 AM
I've never heard that before, Dick...and me, the catlover
(though nowhere near Cathy's league in that arena).
Barb
=============== Reply 72 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/14
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 12:42 PM
Barb: Did some reading, and this might be the allusion:
check out Act I, Scene I, line 9 of 'MacBeth' -- one of the
witches is referred to as 'Graymalkin' (which,
interestingly, is a variant of the more common version
'grimalkin' -- either McCarthy was grasping at the second
level of obscurity, or perhaps this is a specific reference
to 'MacBeth'). Also, read the prophecy scene (I, III) with
MacBeth and Banquo -- Suttree and Quinn? Not too
far-fetched, but more of a suggestion than an outright
derivation. Candidly, I think this guy is being financed by
several major university English Departments, determined to
revitalize their graduate programs in the face of declining
enrollments and the proliferation of MBA drones. Back later
after I check out 'alt.rec.conspiracies' on the net.
Dick in Alaska, on a magnificent morning
=============== Reply 73 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/14
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 9:01 PM
Wow, Dick...Thank you! I don't have MacBeth here at hand,
but will read it at the library. Thanks for doing all that
digging.
I finished the book today and am really taken with these
two Suttrees and the meaning of all that. He left the
hospital saying that he had learned that there was only one
Suttree, then he finds a dead man's body in his cot at the
houseboat...probably the anti-Suttree, right? Does this
mean that the Suttree that was living at the bottom of the
world is dead and that the living one can go on to better
things...not necessarily going back to the life he grew up
in, but at least progressing instead of this constant
self-destruction? This seems particularly possible after
Marty's note regarding McCarthy's life prior to writing
this book and his comment that he stopped drinking because
all of the people he wrote about in this book are dead.
BTW, that comment surprises me since McCarthy seems to be
so closed about what from his life influences how he writes.
But, also...this last scene reeks of the
resurrection of Christ...which makes me think that you're
right, Dick, about the 4 different roles that Suttree plays
here.
On a different thought, I think that all of this
comparison of McCarthy to Faulkner, etc. is pretty futile.
I'm certainly not a literary scholar, but it seems to me
that, whatever went into the pot that brewed McCarthy's
skills, he pretty much stands alone as a writer. He seems
so unique to me that what we are going to see is lots of
future writers influenced by him.
BTW, I have a nephew who is studying in the writing
program at University of Texas and writing some stuff that
I find pretty impressive. However, early in his program,
one of the first comments made was that he needed to crawl
out from under this McCarthy influence that was pervading
his writing. Now, I understand why it was there.
Barb
=============== Reply 74 of Note 7 =================
To: ALL Date: 08/14
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:46 PM
Just found an article on HOMEWORK HELPER by Edwin Arnold,
the man who Marty referred to as finding Suttree deeply
concerned with theology. It's very interesting...worth the
time if you want to go read it. I should have realized
long ago that McCarthy was raised a Catholic. Not being a
Catholic myself, it's hard to put that into words.
However, the deep guilt and despair along with all the
symbolism, whether it is significant or not, jives with
many of my close Catholic friends and their
upbringing. In addition, so many of the references fit
with Catholicism.
One quick point from the article that was a bit
astonishing to me is that SUTTREE was apparently written
over a 20 year period! Is that generally accepted,
Marty? Arnold obviously thinks that SUTTREE is McCarthy's
greatest work.
Also, Arnold jogged my memory about Suttree's still-born
twin and the quote that the twin is "in the limbo of
Christless righteousness" while Suttree is in a
"terrestrial hell." And, that after he was out of the
hospital, he said he had been granted a kind of grace.
Also, Grace is given as his mother's name and he describes
himself as "the son of Grace." Yet, didn't they give the
impression that his father had married beneath him...so is
Grace a child of these Knoxville slums?
But, I digress.
Is Suttree's stillborn twin simply symbolic of the
self-destructive, wandering Suttree that I'm presuming to
have died in the end? Or, is it even more?
Ah, be still my buzzing brain. Marty, I truly understand
now why you have been obsessing over this man.
Barb
=============== Reply 75 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/15
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 0:58 AM
Barbara, et. al.,
Yes, McCarthy was raised Catholic. I took it for granted
that you guys would have known that; sorry. In light of
that, though, what do you think about McCarthy's current
religious beliefs based on SUTTREE? I think that about the
best you can say is that he's probing (religious and other
matters of a "cosmic" nature) deeply, with no real agenda
to push other than that sort of meditative exploration. I
suspect that's the job of the real writer anyway.
Blekistan, one of the foremost critics of Faulkner's work,
said that the genius of THE SOUND AND THE FURY is that
Faulkner only half-wrote the book, that it's rewritten by
every reader on every trip through the book. Is that true
of SUTTREE (assuming arguendo that it's true of Faulkner)?
Is that a positive quality?
Yes, SUTTREE is assumed generally to have taken 20 years
for McCarthy to write. That means, by the way, that he
would have started work on it in 1959, a full six years
before the publication of his "first" novel, THE ORCHARD
KEEPER, in 1965. In the process of writing SUTTREE, then,
McCarthy was also occupied with three other novels and a
screenplay (THE GARDENER'S SON, forthcoming from Ecco
Press) and one version of what later became THE
STONEMASON--that I know of.
I'm of the opinion (right now, anyway) that Suttree's
stillborn twin WAS literally the antiSuttree. When Sut
dealt with whatever he resolved on his half crazed
wandering through the wilderness, that Suttree (the twin)
was finally laid to rest.
Speaking of that sequence, what do you make of Suttree's
wanderings in the wilderness? And what of the death of his
love interest? And did you late readers of THE SOUND AND
THE FURY catch the references to Quentin in the fevered
dreams Sut had at hospital (notice all the watches)?
And Barbara, I'm glad someone here finally gets my
obsession.
--IDJP, exhausted after the first day back in law school,
with WAY too much legal reading to do.
I'll try to respond to some of these posts more fully
tomorrow afternoon; I fear I've been negligent in my duties
here of late. My regular old computer, however, has
returned from repair-land exile, so at least I'm back up to
speed.
=============== Reply 76 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/15
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 11:16 AM
We just slid in under this deadline for the beginning of
law school, didn't we? Am glad we made it...your comments
add enormously to the experience.
My impressions are that McCarthy is probing, as well.
However, my experience is that a Catholic upbringing does
not just up and fly away one day. I started to say that
this is probably true of any religious upbringing, but I
really don't think so. I was taken to an American Baptist
church every Sunday (my mother would have been quick to
emphasize American as opposed to Southern Baptist...sort of
like being a Methodist) and I don't find that it has as
much impact on my approach to life as many other
experiences. Death is being constantly dealt with in this
book and I wonder if CM's almost obsession with it has to
do partly with his Catholicism, partly with what was
happening to those around him and, of course, partly due to
his own far-reaching intellectual curiosity. That last
guess is because I've been reading Tolstoy all summer who
carried his own obsession with death and, though they seem
at polar opposites, I find the same vast process of
thought.
It's a no-brainer for me that a book that can be
"rewritten by every reader on every trip through the book"
is positive. Though I wouldn't want every single book I
read to be of that type, I find I learn most from those
that are. Some of the comments on IN THE LAKE OF THE WOODS
on its string indicate the same feelings.
And, as to your other questions, I'm still thinking.
Totally did not catch the references to Quentin.
Barb
=============== Reply 77 of Note 7 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/15
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 11:58 PM
Barbara and Marty,
Speaking of death, I can pinpoint three times in this work
when Suttree almost died. 1) When he was hit with the
floorbuffer, 2) when he was in the wilderness and starving
and 3) from the typhoid. And he probably almost died from
alcoholic poisoning a couple of times. This man has a death
wish. Jane who has now read four works of McCarthy
=============== Reply 78 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/16
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 0:48 AM
Y'all should see if you can construct a Stations of the
Cross from this book and that crazy old codger Suttree.
Theresa, who has tried to read Suttree twice, and closed the
book both times (but not because I thought it was a bad book
- I'm sure that Moby Dick is might fine literature, too, but
I'll be damned if I ever read it).
=============== Reply 79 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/16
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:37 PM
Marty and all,
Perhaps Suttree's voyage into North Carolina is supposed to
parallel Jesus's 40 days in the wilderness. What do you
think? Jane who enjoyed this book.
=============== Reply 80 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/16
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 11:12 PM
Jane: I think that without the Carolina trip, Suttree would
have been only a 22 kt. Christ figure. Detail counts,
particularly in Christography.
Dick in Alaska still doing dishes from last night's barbecue
=============== Reply 81 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/17
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 11:38 PM
Dick,
I have been thinking about the trip to North Carolina and
though it seems at first like Christ's 40 days in the
wilderness, in another way it is the opposite. This trip is
about the only time that Suttree is not tempted by
something. He is always subject to temptation in the rest
of the book. So perhaps Suttree is the anti-christ and not a
Christ figure at all. Just a thought. Jane who is feeling
sorry for herself because she has to go back to work on
Monday.
=============== Reply 82 of Note 7 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/18
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 11:57 AM
Jane: Easy there. We ALL have to go back to work Monday.
You're quite right that the Carolina jaunt is not an exact
metaphor for the 40 days in the wilderness -- not much in
'Suttree' is 'exact' in that sense. Seems to me that
McCarthy tells the story on several levels at once and that
the allusions are just that -- references to moral arguments
he's making in the text, signposts for plot and theme
development, but not didactic 'symbols'inserted for the
edification and explication of earnest English majors. I
very much enjoyed this book -- found it much more
comprehensible than 'Blood Meridian', and hence more
satisfying to read. Dick in Alaska where it's supposed to
hit 70 degrees today -- amazing
=============== Reply 83 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/18
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 2:23 PM
Dick,
BUT is it BETTER than BLOOD MERIDIAN??
--The Irrepressible DJP 8/18/96 1:17PM CT
=============== Reply 84 of Note 7 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 08/18
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 9:06 PM
IDJP: You're the fella who's heading off to Ph.D central one
of these days -- I just read to pass the time between
prostate examinations. So I'm afraid you'll have to tell us
which of the books is 'better' -- all I can talk about, book
or examination wise, is how much fun I had (or didn't have,
as the case may be).
Dick in Alaska, who on balance, prefers reading
=============== Reply 85 of Note 7 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 08/25
From: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Time: 9:41 PM
I know I'm lagging behind, but I finally finished SUTTREE
this morning. I can't put my finger on why, but I didn't
"fall into" this one like I did BLOOD MERIDIAN. I could
have walked away from the characters and the story any time
-- only McCarthy's poetic prose kept me reading (he must
have been born with different eyes then the rest of us).
Like Ruth (I think), I found SUTTREE more sad than funny
-- though I did chuckle over Harrogate's bat scheme. I
found him to be the most engaging character of the lot. he
may have been a loser, but he was a loser with plan.
I also felt a strange pull during Suttree's wilderness
trek -- the scene where he sees/imagines/hallucinates the
parade of fabled beasts. I know there's a reference here,
but I can't put my finger on it. (It's like a tune on the
tip of my tongue). Shakespeare, maybe?
Finally (and this may be kind of an odd reference),
through most of the novel, I couldn't help thinking about a
book I mentioned earlier in the "Forbidden Teen Age
Literature" thread -- THE FRISCO KID, by Jerry Kamstra.
Admittedly, these two books aren't in the same literary
league (Kamstra couldn't carry McCarthy's jock, much less
sharpen his pencils), but the basic tale is the same.
Change Knoxville to San Francisco, the hicks to hippies,
and the 'shine to weed and you're halfway there. Both
Suttree and The Kid hang out on society's fringe, have a
lot of friends with colorful names that they periodically
save, and every fifty pages or so they stop hanging with
those friends and wander the city, looking at things from a
different angle. THE FRISCO KID was published in 1975, four
years before SUTTREE, but I doubt there was any
cross-pollinization.
Peggy
=============== Reply 86 of Note 7 =================
To: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Date: 08/26
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 5:16 PM
Peggy and all,
One more note about SUTTREE. Because I have another
question that I'd like to get responses from you guys
about. It appears to be a simple one, but it may not be.
In light of SUTTREE (and BLOOD MERIDIAN and any other
McCarthy that you may have read), is Cormac McCarthy a
modernist? Why or why not?
My own opinion is that he's stylistically the perfect
conjoining of Hemingway and Faulkner. With a little Twain
and Melville thrown in for leavening.
Content-wise, though, it's a whole other thing. He seems
to be consciously rebelling against the modernist notion of
what I'll call internality--that is the thoughts of the
characters are where the story REALLY is, cf. Faulkner's
THE SOUND AND THE FURY and Virginia Woolf's TO THE
LIGHTHOUSE. Now, is that anti-modern, postmodern,
classicist or what? Am I right in my assessment? Why or
why not?
Okay, so maybe it was more than one question.
--The Irrepressible DJP 8/26/96 4:11PM CT
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