To: ALL Date: 11/11
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:59 PM
THE STRANGER by ALBERT CAMUS
This is the next book on the slo-mo reading list, and our
dear conductor asked me while we were in New Orleans, if I
would read the translation of this wonderful novel. I tried
to do so yesterday and found the particular English version
that I have to be unbearable. The translation was done by
Stuart Gilbert and was published by Knopf in 1946. I hope
that there are some better translations. For example, the
director of the home where Mersaults's mother spent her last
days is described as having watery blue eyes in the Gilbert
translation. Camus used the adjective "bleu clair" which
has the sense of clear and light blue eyes. I will post
more later. Please let me know about other translations.
Jane who thinks that reading a text in the original language
is one of the best selling points for taking another
language.
=============== Reply 1 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/11
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 11:38 PM
Jane: The translation of Camus's THE STRANGER I'm reading is
the new Vintage International one (1988), by a Matthew Ward,
Fulbright Scholar via Stanford and Dublin who now lives in
Manhattan, and whose publisher maintains he has "made the
original intent [of THE STRANGER] more immediate," and "has
made it our classic as well as France's..."
In Ward's foreword, he explains why he's rewritten the
book's renowned first sentence, replacing "Mother" with
"Maman." I know zero about the linguistic implications, but
I'm definitely hypnotized by the book's style--sparse and
dreamlike at once, in ways I can only begin to appreciate.
>>Dale in Ala., where "Yo Maman" is a gauche rejoinder
=============== Reply 2 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/12
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:47 PM
dale,
Thanks for the information about the new Camus translation.
I will look for it if I have time. But I found it
extremely painful trying to read this work in English,
because it is so beautiful in French. I also love the
ambiguity of the title. L'ETRANGER has the sense of being
not only a stranger but a foreigner as well. Jane who could
easily do a commercial about the value of learning a second
language.
=============== Reply 3 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/13
From: LQYA01B HUNTEROSE SANDMAN Time: 7:52 PM
Greetings dear Jane and Dale . . .
Jane . . . yes! L'ETRANGER is a more beautiful word -- a
truer capturing of THE STRANGER and its feeling of being
"outside" of it all . . . I read the Matthew Ward
translation Dale mentioned, and was very pleased with it.
Our narrator has a unique honesty about him that at
once we both relate with and recoil from . . . indeed, I do
understand how a man can simply get the sun in his eyes--
panic -- and, kill a man . . . how Camus's narrator conveys
this is tres effective, no? Would you or I have such
impartial candor in
a private memoir, or journal . . . or better yet . . . could
any of us demonstrate Camus's skill in painting such a
well-framed symetry ? I LOVE IT!
I read the Ward trans. a year and a half ago, but I'm
looking forward to re-reading it so I may enjoy my very
first (reading when you guys are) discussion!
---Morpheus
=============== Reply 4 of Note 31 =================
To: LQYA01B HUNTEROSE SANDMAN Date: 11/13
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:40 PM
Morpheus, Dale and all,
Are we ready for discussion? I hope so, because our slo-mo
list seems to be getting slower and slower. I wrote some
background information in a notebook and then left the
notebook at school. I will try to post about Camus' life
tomorrow. Jane who can hardly wait.
=============== Reply 5 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/14
From: VRCH78A ALLEN CROCKER Time: 0:06 AM
Thanks very much for complying with my request re THE
STRANGER, Jane; when you mentioned in N.O. that you taught
the book in French I knew we had a rare opportunity to get
an expert perspective on the novel. We had a go-round just
before you arrived in C.R. about the kinds of things that
are lost in translation, and I'd like to get back into
the matter in a specific context. I've been dreadfully
negligent of my responsibility to keep the reading group
moving forward, but I vow to have this read in the next
week if at all possible.
If you can find a better translation I'd like to see
some examples of what made one version better than the
other -- or of what you beleive could still stand some
improvement! Or, just take the direct route and produce
your own!
Allen
=============== Reply 6 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/14
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 7:37 PM
RE: "L'Etranger". . . . .Oh, Jane, I just now noticed
this little discussion. So sorry. By all means secure the
translation by Matthew Ward. It can be had in a paperback
edition published by Vintage International--the one Dale
obviously has. Here is another passage from the
Translator's Note by Mr. Ward:
"Camus acknowledged employing an "American method" in
writing THE STRANGER, in the first half of the book in
particular: the short, precise sentences; the depiction
of a character ostensibly without consciousness; and, in
places, the "tough guy" tone. Hemingway, Dos Passos,
Faulkner, Cain, and others had pointed the way. There is
some irony then in the fact that for forty years the only
translation available to American audiences should be
Stuart Gilbert's "Britannic" rendering. His is the version
we have all read, the version I read as a schoolboy in the
boondocks some twenty years ago. As all translators do,
Gilbert gave the novel a consistency and voice all his own.
A certain paraphrastic earnestness might be a way of
describing his effort to make the text intelligible, to
help the English-speaking reader understand what Camus
meant. In addition to giving the text a more "American"
quality, I have also attempted to venture farther into the
letter of Camus's novel, to capture what he said and how
he said it, not what he meant. In theory, the latter
should take care of itself."
I think those are very apt comments, and I am sure that you
will find this translation much more satisfying. In fact I
should have mentioned this translation when I nominated the
book. Still and all, I concede that it is still only a
translation. However, I look forward to your opinion as to
how close he came.
Your pal. 11/14/95 6:36PM CT
=============== Reply 7 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/14
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:44 PM
Steve, Allen, and all,
I will try to obtain this translation over the weekend.
Albert Camus was born in 1913 in Algeria. Because his
father was killed in World War I, he was raised by his
mother. He refers to his upbringing as being poverty
stricken and sordid.
In 1942, both L'ETRANGER and LE MYTHE DE SISYPHE were
published. Philip Thody says, "His automatic assumption
that life had no meaning, his denunciation of hope, his
determined refusal of any comforting transcendence exactly
fitted the mood of the time."
Keep in mind that France was occupied by the Germans during
this time. Camus said that the fact that his works so
closely captured the feeling of the time was purely
unintentional. Camus used the following quote at the
beginning of MYTHE. "Oh my soul, seek not after immortal
life, but exhaust the fullness of the present." I think
this is a good introduction to C's version of
existentialism.
Jane who is presently studying Maupassant with her French IV
students.
=============== Reply 8 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/15
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 0:33 AM
Jane, Steve and Whomever: This is a good point to interject
a question I've been mulling about Camus and this book.
Camus apparently protested that he was not an
Existentialist, but rather an Absurdist. Despite the
closeness of the relation to Sartre, he denied a
philosophical identity. What exactly is the difference
between existentialism and absurdism, as viewed through the
finely ground glass of French literary perspective?
Dick in Alaska who is looking forward to the discussion on
this book as we've been without a major book thread for TOO
long (and Jane, checkout the Everyman Library edition --
same translation as touted by the Consigliere, but with an
extra 15 page 'introduction' by Peter Dunwoodie about Camus,
the book and a number of critical issues. It'll probably be
coals to Newcastle for you, but it was all new to me)
=============== Reply 9 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/15
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:02 PM
Sir R.,
When I teach the absurd I use the works of Ionesco, because
he depicts the world as an absurd place, where nothing has
any meaning. I suppose that Camus carries this thought
somewhat further, but I really think he is an
existentialist. To me there seems to be a lot more humor in
absurd literature than in existentialism. In exist. there
seems to be more pessimism. The only way to make life worth
living is to be in engaged in it as Sartre would say. He
does talk about the wish of man to be as stable as an
object. "A chair is a chair is a chair". But this is not
possible for man. He is a subject who wishes to be an
object. Perhaps, the absurdists evolved into
existentialism. From what I have read both schools of
thought were greatly influenced by the futility and
destruction of World War I. I hope that helps. Jane in
lovely Colorado where her husband, a government employee,
has suddenly become a house husband.
=============== Reply 10 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/16
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 11:17 AM
Jane: On impulse, as sometimes happens, I skipped ahead and
peeked at the last few paragraphs of THE STRANGER. I was
struck by the breathtaking line, "For the first time, in
that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to
the gentle indifference of the world."
Something tells me that a distinction this ineffable is
the kind of thing that makes translators pull their hair
out. I'd appreciate any enlightenment, geared for a
non-French-speaker such as myself, as to what Matthew Ward
faced in Camus' original, how he dealt with it, and whether
you might have done it differently.
Thanks,
>>Dale in Ala., powerfully impressed by Camus and his
translator too
=============== Reply 11 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/16
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 3:12 PM
"STRANGER" MURDER, Part 1***
All: Whew. I happened to do a search of the Homework Helper
database for material about Camus, and came across this
eerie article from last summer in the L.A. Times.
(Note: possible spoiler alert, because the plot of the novel
is described in some detail...)
***
Novel Cited by Chan Often Misunderstood, Teachers Say
By Jodi Wilgoren, Los Angeles Times August 9, 1994
The award-winning novel Robert Chan blames for his brutal
slaying of a fellow honor student is widely read but often
misunderstood by bright young people, Orange County
educators said Monday.
Albert Camus' "The Stranger," a 123-page book with simple
language and straightforward narrative covering complex,
dense philosophical concepts, commonly serves as an
introduction to existentialism for high school and college
students. It is routinely among the first French novels
assigned to students of the language, while others read
English translations in advanced high school or beginning
college courses in literature or philosophy.
Chan, 19, was sentenced Monday to life in prison without
the possibility of parole for the New Year's Eve, 1992,
slaying of Stuart A. Tay. He said in court papers that he
read "The Stranger" nine months before killing Tay and
determined that "everything was meaningless and nothing
matters because we are all going to die."
The book's narrator, Meursault, shows indifference to his
mother's death, kills a stranger and remains unmoved by his
own impending decapitation. The story expresses the
existential philosophy that there are no objective values,
only rules people make for themselves.
Camus, a Frenchman from Algiers who won the Nobel Prize
for literature in 1957, published half a dozen novels, two
volumes of "Notebooks," a trilogy of plays and a book of
essays before his death in 1960. But his most famous work
was his first, "The Stranger."
The Cure, a rock band both Chan and Tay loved, even based
the 1979 song "Killing An Arab" on the novel.
"Bright students who are introduced to existential ideas
are often fascinated by them. That is not unusual," said
Joan Kasper, a Foothill High English teacher who had Tay as
a student several years ago. "The extent of the fascination
and the duration of the fascination depends on the
individual student." " 'The Stranger,' " Kasper added,
is "a difficult book to understand."
Published in 1946, the story is set in Algiers and told in
two parts. The first is an 18-day chronicle in which
Meursault, an insignificant French clerk, attends his
mother's funeral, has a love affair and kills an Arab on a
beach. The second section is a yearlong chronicle of
Meursault's time in jail, his trial and his ultimate
execution.
(Article continued in next reply>>>)
=============== Reply 12 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/16
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 3:17 PM
"STRANGER" MURDER, Part 2 *** from 8/94 L.A. Times...
Perhaps most famous is the novel's opening lines: "Mother
died today. Or, maybe, yesterday; I can't be sure." The
matter-of-fact narrator continues to move through what seems
a meaningless life, enjoying physical pleasures such as
swimming, smoking and sex, but seeing little purpose in
people's actions. "The ideas that Camus tries to exhibit
in his literature is that human beings are in the strange
position of being valuing and purposeful creatures, but they
find themselves in a world where reality has no match for
this--there aren't purposes in the world," explained Amy
Thomasson, a philosopher who is teaching a course on
existentialism at UCI this summer.
"There isn't meaning in the world, there isn't value in
the world; that's the awkward situation of humanity
according to Camus," Thomasson said. "He argues that there
is no intrinsic meaning in the world apart from what human
beings project onto it."
The book's climax comes during a seaside holiday, when
Meursault encounters the Arab and determines that it does
not matter whether he fires the revolver he is holding.
Later, almost by accident, he kills the man, then pumps four
more bullets into his corpse.
In jail for 11 months, Meursault misses smoking and sex
but is not absolutely unhappy. He admits the murder, but the
judge and jury are more upset with his indifference to his
mother's death, and thus sentence him to decapitation in a
public place. Meursault decides that life is profoundly
absurd, and faces his death in peace.
Matthew Potolsky, a UCI instructor in comparative
literature, said "The Stranger" is famous for its
exploration of "the gratuitous act."
"If there's no meaning in the world then this one act can
just sort of occur," Potolsky explained. Meursault "just
accepts the consequences of that act, he doesn't really feel
remorse, he doesn't rue the fact that he did it...He doesn't
feel he acted wrongly, because the act had no meaning."
According to letters Chan wrote the court and the Tay
family before his sentencing, his reading of Camus in March,
1992, led him down a trail of deterioration that ended in
Tay's death. Chan said he stopped brushing his teeth,
abandoned socks and tried wearing the same clothes for a
week to see if anyone noticed. No one did.
But unlike Meursault, Chan said he does feel remorse for
the murder.
"My shame and guilt will never cease to torment me," Chan
wrote. "As I talked to my family, I felt their incredible
grief and sorrow overwhelmingly in waves and pressing down
upon my conscience with an unbearable weight...My heart was
truly broken when my mother cried in front of me. I could
not face her."
***
Thoughts, anybody, on life imitating art? Don't I recall
reading that Goethe's novel THE SORROWS OF YOUNG WERTHER set
off a wave of teen suicides when it was released?
>>Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 13 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/16
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 9:47 PM
Dale: That settles it; the kids are going on a straight diet
of Nintendo and trash television. These books are far too
dangerous in uneducated hands.
Interesting book, this stranger; I can remember being
incredibly puzzled by it as a teenager (carried it around to
coffee houses, and perused it while smoking a pipe. I'm not
making this up; Balkan Sobranie, zits and Camus, all at
sixteen. If I had ANY pride I'd be too embarassed to relate
this story). Time hasn't helped me much. Question one: What,
if any, difference is there between an existentialist and a
sociopath? Question two: Why do so many translated sentences
in French literature begin with the word "Obviously"?
Question three: If the world has only the meaning in it that
we humans project upon it, why does that translate into
"meaninglessness"? Question four: does Meursault actually
get whacked in the end, or is he still waiting for his
stainless steel Godot? Question five: if you enjoy smoking,
swimming and screwing, and all else is meaningless, why not
fake it for the judge and the jury so you can get another
pack of fags, a trip to the beach and most important (I'm a
non-smoking, non-swimmer, so I may be prejudiced) another
shot at the sweet Marie? Seems like this existentialism is a
non-starter, evolutionarily speaking. Of course, so is
smoking, and swimming in the Mediterranean, so perhaps it
evens out.
Dick in Alaska, who believes Camus deserves a gold star for
his description of Paris ("It's dirty. Lots of pigeons and
dark courtyards. Everybody's pale." Everyman's Library
edition, page 41)
=============== Reply 14 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/16
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:07 PM
Dale,
Oh, Mon Dieu!! I left L'ETRANGER at school so I won't be
able to give you my translation of the passage you
mentioned. Thanks, for posting the article. I don't
believe that the murder of the Arab was a gratuitous act.
The Arab had already slashed Raymond, and it was so terribly
hot. I can understand Mersault's confusion when he met the
Arab at the spring, and the Arab still had the knife. The
heat played a major role at the burial of his mother as
well. I also don't agree that he faced his death with
indifference, because he talks about dreading the dawn each
day. That is when they came to execute the prisoners. The
thing that I admire about Mersault is his absolute honesty.
He is a great observer of life. At the beginning he stands
on his balcony watching the world go by on a Sunday, and he
observes the jury and witnesses during his trial with great
objectivity. Before I go on and on, I would like to hear
from some of the rest of you. Jane who is furious with
congress over the shutdown.
=============== Reply 15 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/16
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 10:46 PM
Excellent set of questions you have posed, Richard! These
will be a great jumping off point for discussion. I will
get back to you this weekend.
Your pal. 11/16/95 9:44PM CT
=============== Reply 16 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/17
From: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Time: 0:47 AM
To answer Dale's question about the association of books/
literature with violent acts, the most famous case is
obviously the Loeb/Leopold murder case, in which both
defendants were fascinated with Nietzsche. Darrow wound up
defending the philosopher along with them. What is
startling about that case, in retrospect, is the complete
absence of psychological testimony or even any idea it would
be relevant. Yet when you read the way Dickie Loeb and
Nathan Leopold were raised, you wonder why nobody realized
they were a disaster waiting to happen. Dickie Loeb's
father, for example, would not speak to him or see him but
commanded that he be given money whenever he wanted it.
Loeb was killed in a homosexual fracas in prison. Nathan
Leopold did some rather brilliant medical work and started
university classes in the prison. Eventually he was freed
through the intervention of Carl Sandburg, among others.
Elmer Goetz was the successful lawyer. - But at the time of
the case, the whole thing revolved around the concept of the
Superman. Now, about that comic strip.....
Cathy
=============== Reply 17 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/17
From: FBED59A EDWARD HOUGHTON Time: 5:00 AM
Jane Niemeier SECOND LANGUAGES.
In response to your comments on learning a second language.
Oui et non.
It takes such a talent to become proficient in a second
language. Can it be tied to musical ability? Or, are
some minds just attuned automatically to the concept of
language. And, do we need to distinguish the sound to
appreciate the nuances? Or is it just an academic
exercise?
Of course, I don't know. But I did observe a lot of very
different men come into our little Army hospital in France.
Some picked up the language verbally; some visually, from
classes & text book exercises. And for some it seemed to
be impossible. And there were some who picked up other
languages as well.
How wonderful to be proficient in another language. It
opens new doors to libraries of understanding. But it is a
gift that some of us cannot share fully. No matter how
hard we try.
Those were the days when "existentialism" was in vogue.
The "outsider", as Camus was. Wasn't he Algerian? Or?
After 40 years, I cannot remember details, but the emotions
are still with me. To die, for the wrong reason. And to
accept it as a natural event. Maybe it will be a nice day.
Well I will look for the book. I'm afraid the only copy in
the house is in French. Belonging to the Bright Full
scholar that I married once, long ago.
Edd Houghton, trying to catch the wisp of a memory.
=============== Reply 18 of Note 31 =================
To: FBED59A EDWARD HOUGHTON Date: 11/17
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 12:14 PM
Dear CRFCs,
I read THE STRANGER so many years ago that a rereading is in
order before I can discuss anything other than its title and
author. However, dear Jane, I'm sure you'll be horrified to
know that a few years ago my brother lived for a short while
on CAMUS STREET in Alexandria, VA. All the residents of
that street pronounced it, you guessed it, (cover your
eyes), KAYMUSS St.
Ruth, in Redlands, where work, writing, art, family
responsibilities, household maintence and general life
support activities are interfering with her real life here
on CR. Hope to be back with you soon
=============== Reply 19 of Note 31 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 11/17
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 1:21 PM
Ruth, Good to "hear" your voice. Re: "KAY-muss" Street, it
seems that French pronunciation is very hit and miss in the
hinterlands. A good friend of mine is from a South Alabama
town named Lafayette, and as you might guess, the natives
pronounce it luh-FATE.
>>Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 20 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/17
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 7:01 PM
Dear Camus-ians (-ites?): A few observations on Camus'
religious life, courtesy of the Monarch Study Guide on the
Homework Helper database. Comments welcomed...
***
Camus And Religion
Many critics have judged Camus to be essentially concerned
with religious problems: who is man, how should he live,
what is his destiny, by what rules should be conduct
himself? "In fact," says Thomas Hanna, in his article
"Albert Camus and the Christian Faith," "it readily becomes
apparent that in all his literary pieces Camus is centrally
concerned with religious/moral themes...' and "Albert Camus
is today's most articulate non-Christian thinker." Note that
Camus is not an anti-Christian but simply a "non-Christian."
It is with the Christian faith that Camus must come to
terms.
Camus believes that Christianity has been turned into "a
doctrine of injustice." Christ was an innocent and unjustly
killed. Christianity is founded on the acceptance of this
injustice. The problems settled by the acceptance of the
death of Christ are precisely the problems of evil and
death. Accepting the innocent death of Christ means
accepting evil and death.
But these are precisely what the rebel cannot accept. The
death of the innocent poses the essential problem. Father
Paneloux in THE PLAGUE sees that the Christian must accept
"the all or nothing" of his commitment to his faith. The
equilibrium between humanity and nature was first broken by
Christianity, which put man's salvation beyond nature.
Camus' whole effort is to validate values drawn only out
of man's relationship with nature. Because of the lucidity
and integrity and consistency of his views, Camus becomes a
critic of Christianity whom the Christian can find valuable
for the inspection of his own position.
Father Bernard Murchland, in his article "Albert Camus:
The Dark Night Before the Coming of Grace?" goes even
further. He suggests that during the period just before his
death Camus was moving steadily towards conversion to Roman
Catholicism. The extreme logical integrity of Camus'
conscience supports this belief. His art, towards the end,
becomes "more serene, disinterested, and assumes something
comparable to a redemptive dimension." In THE PLAGUE he had
been primarily concerned with serving men, not saving them.
In THE FALL and in EXILE AND THE KINGDOM, "he stresses the
new values of penance and expiation."
Murchland takes the irony of THE FALL into consideration.
Camus' work has shown his "pilgrimage" out of absurdity
toward a "high sense of purpose." It would not be surprising
to see him finally adopt a position in which existence
became "purposeful."
Henri Peyre, however, in his article "Camus the Pagan"
insists that Camus was a pagan from first to last, and that
there is no justification for seeing him as an inverted
Christian moving towards conversion. Peyre sees Camus' value
precisely in his thoroughgoing paganism. He quotes him as
saying that "Contemporary unbelief does not rest on
science...It is a passionate unbelief." The evolution of
Camus' ethics, from this position, is detailed in another
article by Doubrovsky called "The Ethics of Albert Camus."
Philip Thody analyzes the work of Camus as it moves from a
personalist philosophy created out of a concrete situation
into the great mainstream of liberal "humanism."
***
>>Dale in Ala., where humanists ("liberal" being
redundant, of course) are occasionally lynched, at least in
spirit, and Christians desiring introspection regarding
their position are far scarcer than the teeth of hens...
=============== Reply 21 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/17
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 11:32 PM
Dale and all,
I think that the only time that Mersault becomes passionate
is when he is venting his rage at the priest in prison.
When the priest asks him if he has not seen the face of
Christ on the prison wall, M. says that he would be more
likely to see the face of a woman than the face of Christ.
He is sort of like Palinor in that he will not compromise
his beliefs for a second. Jane in gorgeous Colorado.
=============== Reply 22 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/18
From: LQYA01B HUNTEROSE SANDMAN Time: 1:22 AM
Hello again to all the CR clan . . .
Having a wonderful time here with THE STRANGER . . . the
book goes with me everywhere now, and I'm determined to fill
the margins (all blank areas, actually) with my loopy
note jotting. (The only used books I cannot sell are those
that have been used by myself --- perhaps, I am over-zealous
in my USING of books.)
A few "jottings" that some of you may find noteworthy thus
far:
THE STRANGER (Ward trans.) Chapter One:
THINGS THAT CRACKED ME UP:
1) (Meuraults thoughts re getting thew time off from work
to attend his Mamans funeral) -- "I asked my boss for two
days off and there was no way he was going to refuse me with
an excuse like that."
2) (On shaking the funeral directors hand) -- "Then he shook
my hand and held it so long I didn't know how to ge it
loose."
THINGS THAT MAY BE SIGNIFICANT (or at least looking into):
1) Chap.1 Meursault comments; "For now, it's almost as if
Maman weren't dead." -- is Camus illuminating Maman's life
here . . . perhaps the only real attention poor Maman has
received is the unavoidable attentions kin MUST pay to their
recently deceased? Was she ignored greatly during her life?
2) If Meursault did not consider his Maman "alive" during
her life, then I think this statement is
along the same lines: "It was true. When she was at home
with me, Maman used to spend her time following me with her
eyes, not saying a thing." . . . am I looking to closely
here?
STUFF:
1) The word "Official" pops up quite a bit in Chap.1 . . .
people going to their "office" seems relevant here, and all
of the reference to things "official" (having to get the
black tie, and arm band, M noting the old mans ribbon of the
Legion of Honor,
etc . . .)
2) Camus has his narrator noting travel-time a great deal .
. .why? Getting there/transit time ,waiting, and
frustrastion. Hmm. Why so much on this so early?
Better stop and send this much now . . . looking forward to
any and all feedback dear Crs!
Morpheus in Atlanta
=============== Reply 23 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/18
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 8:48 AM
Dick: I've been mulling your question about the
existentialist/sociopath connection, and I think you're onto
something major here. The only difference I can see in the
two is that sociopaths, of whom I've known more than my
share over the years, seem to be a good deal more
organized.
Compared to a "conscience-less" (in the traditional sense)
soul who takes life at its default settings, so to speak, as
Meursault seems to, the sociopath by contrast strikes me as
an absolute dynamo of activity...all of it self-serving,
manipulative, and opportunistic to the max, but still.
Whether it's their lack of moral gyroscope or something
biochemical, it's perversely beautiful to see a sociopath at
work--the way they can become, at the drop of a hat, all
things to all people, at Academy-Award levels, and how
effortlessly, Teflon-like, they wiggle out of scrapes that
result from their past transgressions catching up with them.
Amazing.
As to your other point, I agree that when a potential
existentialist convert asks him/herself, "What's in this for
me?" the obvious answer seems to me "Not a lot." One of the
study guides quotes Camus himself as saying something to the
effect that he's not talking about merely a lack of belief,
but "a passionate unbelief."
To me, that translates into a heck of a lot of work, and
I'm opportunistic enough (a budding sociopath, maybe?) to
think that if I'm going to that much trouble, then--unlike
Meursault and Palinor--it should be in the service of a
belief system that works for my personal benefit.
Martyrdom never did appeal to me. I too am neither a swimmer
nor a smoker, but the goal of evenings and breakfasts with
sweet Marie laughing and wearing my shirt would definitely
tilt my moral gyroscope.
Interesting to me that at least one scholar saw Camus as
moving toward Catholicism in his last years. It's
paradoxical to me that someone like Flannery O'Connor could
write her dark and daring fiction while being devoutly Roman
Catholic. In her collected letters from the book HABIT OF
BEING, some non-Catholic friend remarks to her that this
religious business is all well and good, if she keeps in
mind that components of it such as the Host are "just
symbols." To which Flannery responds, "If it's just a
symbol, I say to hell with it." Fascinating woman.
>>Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 24 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/18
From: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Time: 10:31 AM
Jane
I too thought of Palinor as I read this, but it seemed to
me the two men took the same core belief in opposite
directions. Mersault felt that the lack of spirituality
made his actions meaningless; whereas at point, Palinor
said something to the effect "It is because there is
nothing else out that we must behave morally. It is all up
to us." (I'm paraphrasing -- KOA is long back at the
library).
Sorry this is so foggy, but the caffeine hasn't kicked in
yet...Peggy
=============== Reply 25 of Note 31 =================
To: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Date: 11/18
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 1:46 PM
Peggy: I agree that Palinor believed in something: he had an
ethical system and was true to it. Meursault on the other
hand seems incredibly passive: that languid, Gallic
indifference we see in the 'serious' French cinema, where
all comments are elliptical and all rejoinders cryptic.
A further question for consideration: was the death sentence
in this case unjust? Wasn't the murder of the Arab so
irrational, so unjustified as to suggest Mssr. Meursault
just might be a teeny bit of a danger to the community?
Wasn't the crime pretty heinous as such things go?
One other matter: I'm buying a new computer system for the
office -- we're diving into networking, pentiums all around
and a nuclear-powered scanner. Consequently, I'll be in the
'scan it in and upload' business in a few weeks. The book
related part of all this is that I've just ordered some
(supposedly) heavy-duty French language translation
software; someday soon I'll post some Camus-cum-machine for
review and discussion. I may even do my own translation.
God, I love technology.
Dick in Alaska, where he can hardly wait
P.S. Jane and all: Did the blowing of the siren before
dawn indicate the execution was imminent, or was it just
morning in Algiers?
=============== Reply 26 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/18
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 3:23 PM
RE: Camus according to the Consigliere. . . .
Folks, I know a little about this stuff, but not nearly
enough. However, let me wade in anyway-- the old
Consigliere never having been intimidated into keeping his
mouth shut by a mere breathtaking lack of knowledge.
I think the evidence, his later writing, indicates Camus
himself became bothered by the same things about absurdism
that are bothering the two of you, Richard and Dale.
Remember that THE STRANGER, his first novel, was published
in 1942 while Camus was deeply involved in the Resistance
at the ripe old age of 28. Consequently, in fairness to
him, let us just say that he wrote it during a time that
was not entirely conducive to an optimistic pondering of
the noble meaning of existence and man's proper place in a
grand scheme. Furthermore, I think it is a mistake to
completely identify Camus with Mersault. Rather, I think
we might more properly think of Mersault as a character
used my Camus to illustrate some ideas. What I am saying
here, Richard, is that we should not necessarily assume
that Albert himself wouldn't have danced a jig in front of
that judge and jury in order to have another go with sweet
Marie and a smoke and a swim afterward.
Camus's (Professor Strunk tells me to ALWAYS add the
apostrophe and the additional "s" regardless of how
ridiculous it looks) ideas continually evolved. The
general consensus is that the point of his novel THE PLAGUE
published in 1947, a very good year--the year of my
nascency into this interesting scene, was to glorify the
perseverance and dignity of people striving, with very
little success by the way, for the good of their fellow
man. So I would offer that as Exhibit A in defense against
the charge that his particular brand of Existentialism is
simply a thinly disguised form of sociopathy.
I say "his particular branch" of Existentialism because
Camus is probably responsible for all of Existentialism
being tarred with the term "absurdist." In fact that is
unfair to Sartre. Although they were pals for a good many
years, Camus and Sartre had a regular hissy fit with each
other in later years. (I love people that have horrible
arguments about stuff like this, in contrast to those in
much greater numbers who are inclined to feud over who was
treated most unfairly in Aunt Bertha's estate.) As to
Camus's alleged flirtation with Catholicism in later years,
I doubt it. This theory apparently arises from a
particular scholar's reading of THE FALL. However, we will
never know, Albert having been taken from us at the ripe
old age of 46 by that venerable institution, the automobile
crash. I can't help but note that he did a good deal of
theater work, and one piece that he is most noted for is an
adaptation of Faulkner's REQUIEM FOR A NUN. I find that
very interesting for some reason.
In any event it is all rather passe, life being so
meaningful and logical for all of us. He who dies with the
most toys wins. (I am always inclined to rephrase this,
"He who squanders the most of the Earth's resources wins.")
So simple. So concrete. So easily understood-- except
apparently for a few of our youth. I would add to
Catherine's example of Leopold and Loeb that of the
murderer of John Lennon. Do you remember what book it was
that supposedly inspired him to that act, Dale?
Next for me it will be on to the text of THE STRANGER,
Morpheus, I promise.
Your pal. 11/18/95 2:19PM CT,
who is feeling VERY cocky today! During a rare peek into a
newspaper last week, I learned that eggs are not bad for me
after all. I knew it. I knew it. I KNEW IT! Thank
Heavens I had the rare good judgment not to deny myself my
breakfast eggs based on some comedian's (or comedienne's)
word after having just published his "study." I like 'em
fried in the bacon drippings with SALT and PEPPAH liberally
applied--the eggs, not the comedian. During my spiritual
[to be continued]
=============== Reply 27 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/18
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 3:23 PM
[continued from above] . . . ponderings on Sunday morning,
I add a side of Potatoes O'Brien, too. Why can't these
people do a study on something that is obviously extremely
deleterious to one's health--like the habit of RUNNING
every day? The child bride's knees have three inches of
play in them from doing that in her youth. Besides, you
tend to spill your beer.
These things always come full circle. You all
remember well those ads in the early fifties featuring
Ronald Reagan touting the health benefits of menthol
cigarettes. Mark my words, Possums. Before the end of the
century you will all again be encouraged by the Surgeon
General to try to smoke at least a pack a day for the
health benefits (not to mention the signs that will be
placed in the buses reading "Remember! A jelly glass full
of cheap, warm bourbon everyday keeps the doctor away").
The benefits seem patently obvious to me. For example, one
can be fairly assured that one will never be caught in the
embarrassing and entirely unhealthy predicament of being
incarcerated and bedridden in a "Home," drooling while some
old licensed practical bag (I prefer the young, unlicensed,
entirely impractical sort, myself) pokes pins into one to
determine if one is still "alive." Much better--a much
more graceful departure is to be dropped in one's tracks by
a massive coronary, that is, as long as one is not in the
john at the time or in the company of the wrong woman. You
still have your looks, too. When people come to pay their
last respects after a departure like this, they invariably
say, "He looks like he could sit up and speak."
So the lesson from the Consigliere today is this. Spend
a great deal more time considering that which you are
denying yourselves and whether the price of that denial is
a fair one. Ars longa, vita brevis.
=============== Reply 28 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/18
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 11:05 PM
Richard,
As I said ain an earlier post, I believe that the murder was
somewhat understandable, considering that the Arab had just
knifed his "friend" Raymond, and that Mersault cannot stand
the heat. Once he fired the first shot, why not fire the
four others? I am a person who feels the heat, as they say
in the south where I was born. I can understand the
confusion. Camus compares the sun's rays to a sword smoting
M. in the forehead. Perhaps this is why I have never owned
a gun. Jane who feels some sympathy for Mersault.
=============== Reply 29 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/19
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 0:23 AM
Ma cher Jeanne: It is well you decided upon teaching instead
of criminal defense as a career. Why NOT four more shots, if
you've already fired one? No reason at all, if you are a
depraved murderer, indifferent to human life, and indeed
intent upon it's extinguishment. Otherwise, I think we need
more....
As to the heat, think of how Meursault loves the heat; he
has never been confused in the heat before (that I recall).
He is Algerienne; he basks in the heat; he runs after a
truck in the midday heat to catch a ride, and swings onto
the bed, dripping sweat and laughing on the way to lunch.
NEVER has the heat effected him, except positively. Only on
the beach (where it is not the heat, but the sun that is
mentioned) is there a problem.
As to the knifing of his 'friend' Raymond -- some friend. He
is indifferent to Raymond; he barely tolerates him. There is
no affection, no love. This is simply not a crime of
passion, at least if Camus' (ses') narrative is to be
believed.
And, we must remember, that Meursault walked through the sun
and the heat, down the beach to the Arab. He rekindled the
the confrontation. All the Arab did was draw a knife as
Meursault drew near (apparently with his revolver showing;
the text doesn't reflect his drawing it from a pocket;
indeed the text does't even mention him lifting it and
pointing it before firing; was he walking down the beach
with the revolver pointed at the Arab already?); the Arab
didn't even get to his feet before he was shot dead.
I am afraid, cher Jeanne, that the evidence against Mssr.
Meursault is overwhelming. Not that he was an unfeeling
brute with respect to his mother, but rather, that he was a
cold blooded, sociopathic (or psychopathic) killer, who
took the life of another human being with a casual disregard
for the consequences that is absolutely chilling. I'm no
death penalty advocate generally, but if there is a death
penalty, I don't think Meursault has much to complain about.
Somewhere in this discussion, I read a comment by either
Meursault or a commentator to the effect that the death of
the Arab "wasn't important". This fits in generally with
Meursault's views as to the insignificance of individual
lives and deaths, and the future and the past, in the grand
scheme of things. I keep wondering though: wasn't it
important to the Arab? After all, Meursault's impending
death certainly seemed to get his attention.
Finally, I wonder, just a tiny bit, is there an element of
incipient racisim here -- is the fact that the murder
involves a mere Arab of signficance? We do know that French
Algeria was not a model of civil rights activism; we also
know that France itself viewed the Algerian colonists (not
to mention the Arabs) with a certain contempt and and
condecension, calling them 'pied noirs' if I recall
correctly in a derogatory reference to their barefoot,
redneck agricultural backgrounds. Is the judicial outrage at
Meursault's attitudes and conduct brought into sharper
relief, and dramatized by the fact he is sentenced to death
for the murder of an ARAB? It doesn't seem to me very likely
that this was an intentional part of Camus's(es) scheme,
given the time and the place the novel was written. Still,
it seems a question worth asking.
Dick in Alaska, who could stand quite a bit of that North
African sun and sand
=============== Reply 30 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/19
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 9:01 AM
Dick & Jane, [sorry; I couldn't resist] The question of
"Why not four more shots?" for the Arab reminds me of a
short item from our local paper a while back, in a column
about doings at the county courthouse.
A woman charged with the shooting death of her husband
pleaded not guilty on the grounds that it was "a mercy
killing." When asked to elaborate, she told the court, "I
shot him once, but then he was in such terrible suffering
that I had no choice but to put him out of his misery."
Makes sense to me, but for some reason the jury didn't buy
it.
A question, here...It seems to me that in the moments just
before the killing by Meursault, Camus goes to great lengths
to stack the deck, narratively speaking, by repeating
variations on the theme of "I realized you could either
shoot or not shoot," "To stay or go, it amounted to the same
thing," "I'd gone there without even thinking about it,"
"All I had to do was turn around and it would be over," "I
knew it was stupid..." ad infinitum. And this only minutes
after he'd so cannily counseled Raymond on the fine points
of personal responsibility in a similar situation.
It seems to me the guy doth protest too much, and I'm
wondering if the original language has any greater sense of
justification for that cinematic Gallic languor that Dick so
aptly referred to earlier.
>>Dale in Ala., where staying and going always amount to
very different things
=============== Reply 31 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/19
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 12:25 PM
So then if great literature is distinguished by its
success in shedding light on the predicament we find
ourselves in as human beings, what does Camus teach us? He
teaches us that even though we live in an age of science,
science can be a seductive liar in many respects. Science
advances a multitude of propositions along the line of "if
such-and-such occurs, then such and such will occur." It
assumes that this world is logical. Certainly, science has
produced great things, such as the tool that I type on this
very minute, but it is utterly useless and many times
dangerous in determining how to live one's life as an
individual. In other words to the extent that the
scientific mind set slops over into human affairs, it can
and does produce serious error. In the end we are adrift
on a sea of absurdity, and the most absurd phenomenon of
all is death.
It is apparent that the actual facts surrounding the
murder of the Arab, played no part in the determination of
Mersault's fate in those judicial proceedings. Rather his
perceived attitude toward the death of his mother
determined his fate. I find that to be an absolute truth
in my experience. We have just seen a wonderful example of
this in our own trial of the century. Now is that or is
that not absurd? Yet we are so found of envisioning our
judicial system as the epitome of logic, in fact a kind of
scientific fact finding apparatus, if you will. As to this
Kafka and Camus are of the same mind.
Let's talk about eggs and death again. The scientists
were telling us "if you refrain from eating eggs, you won't
die of coronary heart disease." Now that was the bottom
line of the message. Camus would laugh at this
proposition. He would point out eloquently that whether
one eats eggs or not really makes no difference in the big
picture. Death may await you in the form of a drunken
driver on the first day you abstain from eggs, and there
you are dead anyway with no eggs in you stomach. He would
also, I think, laugh at statistical probabilities as a
method of governing one's conduct. This sort of
mathematics is absolutely irrelevant to the individual
human being.
If one were to pick up one's Sunday New York Times today
and read through the front section and the Week in Review,
one would find a veritable plethora of examples of the
absurd, many far more heart rending than the misguided
attempt to get people to swear off eggs so they won't die.
To the extent that one attains more and more literacy, the
easier it becomes to recognize absurdity for what it is.
All Camus was doing in THE STRANGER was setting out this
proposition. He then elaborated on it the form of the
essay THE MYTH OF SISYPHUS. He then tackled the problem of
how we are to govern our conduct in this absurd world in
THE PLAGUE and works that followed while producing plays
and great short stories. He attempted a new Reformation by
attacking both Christianity and Marxism as they manifested
themselves in his time. He had a whale of an argument with
Jean Paul Sartre about all this. And he won the Nobel
Prize. Then he was killed in an automobile collision at
the age of 46, over two years younger than I am now. What
a fitting illustration of his own ideas!
I am finished now. I just wanted to try to make clear why
I had suggested this particularly book for the slo-mo group.
Your pal. 11/19/95 11:24AM CT
=============== Reply 32 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/19
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 5:55 PM
Steve: Your latest post got me thinking about my analysis of
'The Stranger'; I think I may have been off on the wrong
foot thinking of it so strongly as existentialist in tone;
your note, going into the absurdist aspects, plus your
earlier comments about Camus's (I'll follow your lead on
this plural 's' business, but it sure looks funny to me)
youth have turned me a bit . First, some of the problems I
perceive in the internal logic of the story become
non-existent if the intent is simply to dramatize the
absurdist elements, and not to proclaim existential reality.
Thus, Meursault's conviction based upon the judge's sense
that he was a bad son and unfeeling human being, becomes a
more valid point if it is based on the absurd; my earlier
comments on this point (that he was guilty as hell, and that
his emotional shallowness and moral tone deafness were, at
most, additional circumstantial evidence of that guilt, and
the formulation that 'nothing matters' simply hadn't been
shown in the context of the story) assumed an existential
thesis. Also, it's my personal view that absurdist
literature and viewpoints appeal most strongly to the young.
It is so much more painful for a young person to confront
the randomness and illogic of life, just at that point in
their lives when they feel so FULL of life and it's
possibilities. Just as the gift is received, the poisonous
knowledge of death and futility begins to seep in -- a
dreadful symmetry, leading to all sorts of terrible things
like youthful flings with socialism, tremendous amounts of
irresponsible sexual activity, and a nihilistic dedication
to whiskey, drugs and tobacco. God I miss being even a
little bit young.
A final point, is Camus's steadfast determination that he
and Sartre held fundamentally different philosophical views.
And, while I'm not even remotely expert on Sartre, I do
believe "The Stranger" is quite different from his thinking.
As you point out, the two had quite a falling out some years
later, in significant part over Camus's insistence that
such values as justice and morality, in human context, were
as important or even more so than political structure. It is
probably a mark of the extraordinary power of Camus's
intellectual force in Europe and particularly in France,
that he could separate himself from Marxist influences, in
defiance of the political correctness of the French
intelligentsia, and get away with it. It most definitely was
not popular in the late 1950's in France to point out that
communism had the staggering shambles and was kept afloat
largely by the blood of the innocent. Taking a simultaneous
shot at the church undoubtedly helped him a bit here as
well.
Anyway, excellent choice for reading material, Mr.
Warbasse, sir, your consiglierity. I don't know what else
could have convinced me to wade through the Encyclopedia
Britannica articles on existentialism and modern philosophy,
plus the subpart on Camus and the theater of the absurd;
just like college, except I'm actually doing the reading.
Dick in Alaska, who once owned a Peugeot that made numerous
attempts on his life, and wonders if Camus was killed, quel
horreur, by a French manufactured automobile. Another case
of a mother devouring her young?
=============== Reply 33 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/19
From: KWWP63A SARA SAUERS Time: 6:11 PM
Consigliere, you seem to find this recognition of
absurdity so liberating. Am I correct?
I find it nearly paralyzing. I have to acknowlege it
when it rears - as it has with this reading of THE STRANGER
and of all these notes - but then I have to run from it.
It is the place where I see too far - not a productive
perspective for me.
-Divina (I never did give up eggs. Nature's perfect
protein, you know.)
=============== Reply 34 of Note 31 =================
To: KWWP63A SARA SAUERS Date: 11/19
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 6:25 PM
Steve: I need a cite on this egg business; perhaps I'll make
chat this evening, but if not could you let me know? I've
been living in fear of chickens for years now, and would
love being set free.
Dick in Alaska where the Colonel is out to get him, or at
least his cardio-vascular system
=============== Reply 35 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/19
From: HKRM88A LOUIS PETRILLO Time: 6:28 PM
Your last statement reminds me of Tom Lehrer's famous crack:
When Mozart was my age he'd been dead for 3 years!
=============== Reply 36 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/19
From: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Time: 10:24 PM
Dick,
I'm not Steve, but the egg study he's been so gleefully
citing was financed by the Egg Industry.....
Peggy
=============== Reply 37 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/20
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 0:03 AM
ALBERT CAMUS WORK....THE FIRST MAN...takes FRANCE BY
STORM...
when french writer ALBERT CAMUS died in an automobile
accident in 1960, police found a briefcase near the
wreckage. Inside was the first draft of an autobiographical
novel that CAMUS hoped would one day be his greatest work..
FOR 34 years, until this year, the author's family refused
to publish it. The novel is called THE FIRST MAN..when it
came out in FRANCE, the book created a literary sensation..
ALBERT CAMUS is the most widefly read FRENCH author of this
century, but when he died he was disdained by FRENCH
intellectuals for refusing to support the french communist
party and algerian independence....CAMUS' friends worred
that publishing an unpolished manuscript would damage the
author's reputation even more.....JOSE GRANIER is now an
editor at GALLIMARD, the french publisher of THE FIRST
MAN...he read the manuscript back then and advised CAMUS'
widow not to publish it...HE HAD a lot of enemies at the
time, and we thought it will only have added to the
criticism. it wasn;t the moment...PEOPLE WOULD have said,
look he's writing about his childhood..he has nothing more
to say..
but 34 years have passed , CAMUS' reputation has been
restored and his daughter decided to publish the book....THE
FIRST MAN is about CAMUS' childhood in ALGERIA..it spells
out for the first time what the author thought about his
life..the book has surprised critics and even former
friends...writer and publisher..jean danielle..says he knew
the author well but only up to a point... CAMUS used
to speak about the childhood, but in a very superficial
way..he said that he likes to play football, that he was a
goal keeper,.....WHAT seems to have been an important issue
in CAMUS' life was growing up in a poor french household
where no one could read and there was little
conversation..his uncle was deaf...and his mother had severe
hearing problems...CAMUS writes that she spends hours
staring out of the window living in her own world...but this
only seems to have fed his adoration of her... continued
=============== Reply 38 of Note 31 =================
To: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Date: 11/20
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 0:28 AM
CONTINUED...
WHEN CAMUS received the NOBEL PRIZE FOR LITERATURE in
1957..he paid tribute to his mother in his acceptance speech
saying he had to speak out for the speechless....editor JOSE
GRANIER says his lack of verbal communication between the
mother and son is a recurring theme in the author's work
going back to his first success ..THE STRANGER...
You get the impression that ehy key to all of CAMUS' work is
not the theory about the absurd or revolt, but rather it's
his love for the silent mother, the mother who can't
communicate verbally, but in a look in the way she watches
him in the room, she expresses all the hardness in the world
and all the suffering of life.
THE FIRST MAN also reveals CAMUS' yearning for his
father..LUCIEN CAMUS was killed in WORLD WAR I when his son
was an infant..one of the most touching passages in the book
takes place when the protagonist visits his father's grave
for the first time...he's 40..he stares at the tombstone
stunned, realizing his father only lived to be 29.
This experience of growing up without a father explains in
part the title THE FIRST MAN..but CAMUS also had something
else in mind...JOSE GRANIER says CAMUS had hoped the book
would be his WAR AND PEACE, an epic history told through one
family of FRENCH colonials in ALGERIA.
He thinks that we're the FRENCH people in ALGERIA we're the
first men...because they were poor...they were sent there a
little bit by force and they were so poor they didn't have
any cultural memories, any roots or any past...that's what
it means THE FIRST MAN..
ALBERT CAMUS' unfinished novel seems to have struck a chord
with the FRENCH...it hit the best seller list as soon as it
came out and alerady it's in its second printing in
FRANCE....
gail..a passionate reader ...reporting from SAN
FRANCISCO...baghdad by the bay....
=============== Reply 39 of Note 31 =================
To: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Date: 11/20
From: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Time: 1:34 AM
Two quotes on the effects of WWI on the generation coming up
after:
****I know you and I, and Phillida too, for that matter, all
belong to the gang who grew up just after the war and found
the place in such a mess that everything had to be a roaring
joke, and we laughed ourselves along, trying everything and
feeling nothing very serious....as it wasn't, then.. but
times have changed. We're old. We're grown up. We're the
ruling generation. When we get in a mess now it's real.
*****He belonged to a post-war generation, that particular
generation which was too young for one war and most
prematurely too old for the next. It was the generation
which had picked up the pieces after the holocaust indulged
in by its elders, only to see its brave new world wearily
smashed again by younger brothers. His was the age which
had never known illusion, the grimly humorous generation
which from childhood had both expected and experienced the
seamier side. Yet now, recently, some time very lately, so
near in time that the tingle of surprise still lingered,
something new had appeared on his emotional horizon. It had
been something which so far he had entirely lacked and which
had been born to him miraculously late in his life. He saw
it for what it was. It was a faith, a spiritual and
romantic faith. It had been there always, of course,
disguised as a rejected illusion, and must have lain there
for years like a girl growing to maturity in her sleep. Now
it was awake all right and recognizable; a deep and lovely
passion for his home, his soil, his blessed England, his
principles......
*******
These two bits come from the pen of Margery Allingham, the
first from BLACK PLUMES, first published 1940, the second
from TRAITOR'S PURSE of the same year. I thought of them
immediately I read about the lingering effects of the war
and its connection with absurdism.
Cathy
=============== Reply 40 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/20
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 3:47 PM
Dearest Consig., I am properly chastened by your correct
apostrophization of Albert's last name. Believe or not, the
spirits of Strunk and White hovered at my shoulder as I
actually went through the Homework Helper article and
corrected it to match their standards. Then, to my shame, I
decided the result indeed "looked funny" and did a
search-and-replace to return the name to its original form.
Next time, I will do what's right; I, of all people,
should know that looking funny is no excuse for inaccuracy.
While I've got you here, a question...
Not to play semantics, but doesn't Camus's supposed notion
of a "passionate unbelief" contradict itself by
definition? I can buy the scholar's contention that Camus
was "non-Christian, not anti-Christian." But it seems to me
that passion presupposes a belief, however that belief may
fall on the infinite spectrum from pro to con. Your
thoughts?
>>Dale in Ala., who threw caution to the winds and had
fried potatoes for breakfast the last three days, but whose
Baptist guilt requires running an extra mile as penance
=============== Reply 41 of Note 31 =================
To: KWWP63A SARA SAUERS Date: 11/20
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 4:20 PM
Divina, as a matter of fact I do find the recognition of
the absurdity of this world liberating in a certain sense,
which I will be happy to explain. That line that struck
Dale so forcibly--"For the first time, in that night alive
with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle
indifference of the world"--is one of my favorites. So
often midst the travails of this existence, we are tempted
to moan, "why me?" Some spend a remaining lifetime in
bitterness over some perceived injustice. Others wither on
the vine after some enterprise failed--even though they did
everything right, nothing turned out well. Others lapse
into insanity as a result of fixating on a chain of events
that was utterly illogical and tragic. It seems to me that
so many people approach this world as if some sort of
guaranty was issued to them at their birth warranting that
everything--or anything, for that matter-- would be fair
and just in their lives. No such guaranty was ever issued
to any babe born of man and woman. Camus does the best job
of exploring and illuminating this whole subject of any
author that I am aware of, with the possible exception of
the author of Ecclesiastes. Does it ease the pain of
untoward events for me? Not much. Can I accept untoward
events more philosophically? No doubt about it. So in
that sense it is liberating.
Jane and Richard, I have enjoyed your debate about the
facts of the murder, and I think it illustrates something.
On the one hand I agree with Richard. There is not much
here to support a claim of self-defense. Also, the
justification of the heat I find weak. (By the way I don't
think the temperature drops below 95 from the beginning to
the end of this book.) So I view Mersault as a murderer.
However, I was taken by your admission that you sympathize
with Mersault, Jane. I do, too. This simply makes you a
sensitive human being in my estimation in that when you are
allowed to explore the thoughts and motivations of an
individual through the magic of a great author, you tend to
understand and accept. The same phenomenon can occur in
connection with Raskolnikov in CRIME AND PUNISHMENT for
another example. Murderers are human, too. For my part I
was just pointing out how little the actual facts of the
murder had to do with Mersault conviction at trial. I
found that absolutely poetic in its truth.
Dale, those passages that you cited along the lines of "To
stay or go, it amounted to the same thing" go to the
absolute heart of this book, I think. Here again, I don't
think that Mersault is Camus's alter-ego at all. I think
Camus was using Mersault to portray the exact WRONG way to
approach the absurdity of this world. Richard was right on
when he talked about "that languid, Gallic indifference we
see in the 'serious' French cinema, where all comments are
elliptical and all rejoinders are cryptic." That is
Mersault through and through. While Mersault may have
taken a core belief in an opposite direction than Palinor,
I think that Camus himself would heartily second the idea
which Peggy paraphrased: "It is because there is nothing
else out there that we must behave morally. It is all up
to us." At least his later stuff would certainly indicate
this.
Which brings me to the subject of rebellion, which was a
very important idea to this particular group of French cats
(you've got me doing it, Catherine) that were
contemporaries of Camus. To a great extent it was their
answer to the absurdity of this world. It does not come up
in THE STRANGER, but it comes up in spades in MAN'S FATE a
great, great book by Andre Malraux that just happens to be
Barbara Hill's nomination for the slo-mo group. Malraux is
recognized as one of the great existentialist writers of
fiction. She and I had an entertaining (for us) little
discussion of that one some months ago, and I surely hope
that some of you that found yourselves interested in THE
STRANGER grab that one and read it soon.
Morpheus, I did read and enjoy your note concerning
=============== Reply 42 of Note 31 =================
To: KWWP63A SARA SAUERS Date: 11/20
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 4:20 PM
"things that cracked me up" and "things that may be
significant." This is such a simple book on the surface,
but so dense just under the surface. I find myself
constantly checking passages and mentally noting to myself,
"that may be significant." Still haven't figured out the
significance of most of them though. For example the last
line in the book where Mersault says that he won't feel so
alone if there is a crowd at his execution howling at him
with hatred. That one is a stumper for me. One of clear
significance that baffled me for so long that I am
embarrassed to admit it is found at the end of Chapter 2,
Part 2, where Mersault thinks back to what the nurse said
at Maman's funeral and remarks, "No, there was no way out.
. . . " Now the only thing the nurse ever said is found
toward the end of Chapter 1, Part 1: "She had a remarkable
voice which didn't go with her face at all, a melodious,
quavering voice. She said, "If you go slowly, you risk
getting sunstroke. But if you go too fast, you work up a
sweat and then catch a chill inside the church." But that
is immediately followed by Mersault's interpretation of her
remarks: "She was right. There was no way out." Took me
the longest time to figure out such a simple, logical
reference back. Again, the point is obviously if the eggs
don't get you, the drunken driver will. There is no way
out.
Which brings me to you, Peggy. Why do you embarrass me
with facts concerning this egg study? We're high falootin'
intellectuals here concerned only with the big picture.
Please don't muddy the waters with facts. (Don't let her
confuse you, Richard. I will get you the cite for the egg
study.)
Louis, I enjoyed your needle. Why just the other day I
was also saying, "When Fielding was my age, he had already
been dead more than a year." (I love it. Thanks.)
And thank you, gail. I had no idea this formerly
unpublished work by Camus existed! I will definitely look
into it.
Manana, vaqueros.
=============== Reply 43 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/20
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 5:01 PM
Oh, Dale, my goodness! I didn't intend to chastise
anybody. For ole Warbasse to chastise anybody about
anything would be the height of hypocrisy. It's just that
I have recently been bouncing around in ELEMENTS OF STYLE
again, which I think is a veritable little masterpiece, and
came across those possessive rules. Just happened that
Camus was on my mind, for obvious reasons, and I sez to
myself, "Well, I'll be damned! That should be CamuS'S."
Looks funny as the dickens, but there it is. In black and
white according to Strunk and White.
Now gosh darn it and shucks, I sure wish that I had a
couple of my old books that vanished during the sturm und
drang of divorce number two so I could do a little extra
credit reading about this "passionate unbelief" thing that
has caught your interest. (When in doubt, blame number
two. That's my motto.) It's caught my interest, too,
since you brought it up. At first blush, certainly looks
like an oxymoron, doesn't it? [Like "military
intelligence"--har, har, har--(wow, am I ever sick of that
illustration of an oxymoron.)] Anyway, like I said, a mere
breathtaking lack of knowledge. . . . You know what I think
that is all about? Camus on the one hand and the
existentialists on the other held the belief that a person
is not per se anything--that is, a person is not born
anything. As Jane said, a person is not an object. Rather
a person defines themselves by their action even in the
face of a meaningless and absurd world. Maybe Richard can
refine this more since he has been able to do some extra
credit reading more recently than I. In any event there
was certainly a lot of emphasis upon passionate action
among these folks, such as rebellion, as I mentioned in the
other note. So it seems to me that this goes to show that
Camus was NOT advocating Mersault's passive, Gallic,
taciturn unbelief but rather an active and passionate
undertaking of life in spite of unbelief. Does that have
the ring of truth about it for you? Does to me. [Damn. I
should write that down somewhere.]
Your pal. 11/20/95 4:00PM CT
=============== Reply 44 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/20
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 5:18 PM
Wait a minute! Wait a minute, Dale. I'm not finished
yet. I want to get all this out before Ramsey jumps in
here and starts fogging the issue with facts again. Jane
was absolutely correct. The only time Mersault ever became
passionate was when the priest visited him in prison
suggesting a dose of religion when what he really needed
was a dose of leg, as we were wont to say in the Army. The
message of this book for me is that if you take the
passionless and passive approach to this world that
Mersault took, this world will certainly blow holes in you.
On the other hand if you take the passionate, active
approach, this world will probably still blow holes in you,
but at least you will present a moving target. How's that?
Your pal. 11/20/95 4:12PM
CT
=============== Reply 45 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/20
From: HKRM88A LOUIS PETRILLO Time: 5:55 PM
This has really been a superlative string! This is on-line
at its best! I just wish to heck I had something non-trivial
to say & unfortunately I don't, except my sincerest thanks
to those of you who have been saying such good things.
=============== Reply 46 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/20
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:55 PM
Am just beginning Book II of Matthew Ward's translation of
THE STRANGER. Am wondering if it's the difference in the
translation or the difference in my age since I last read
it...probably a bit of both. I continually marvel at the
cleanness of the writing...so much presented in so few
words.
I must say that this book left me somewhat cold in
college. I had so little understanding of Mersault and
that numb quality left me almost as impatient as the
judge...though for different reasons. I was convinced that
I really could affect the world (ah, those 60's) and I also
wasn't listening very close to the discussion regarding
Camus.
The discussion here has been outstanding. Have learned
enormously from it in addition to delving in again to my
own thoughts about the absurd outcomes in life. However,
this Ward translation would have drawn me in even without
the discussion, I think. Was the Gilbert translation done
while Camus was still alive? If so, it must have been a
bit excruciating for him to read.
Barbara
=============== Reply 47 of Note 31 =================
To: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Date: 11/20
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:55 PM
gail...Do you know if THE FIRST MAN has been published in
the U.S.? Barbara
=============== Reply 48 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/20
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:13 PM
Steve,
Wonderful post!! I also thought of Roskolnikov while reading
this book. I am starting LE PREMIER HOMME today. They
published it with all the little annotations, etc., as on
the rough draft. It's fascinating reading a work in
progress, but sad that it will never be finished. Here is
an article that was in the NEW YORK TIMES that I downloaded
from AOL if anyone is interested.
Aug 25, 1995
The First Man
By Albert Camus
Translated by David Hapgood
325 pages. Alfred A. Knopf. $23.
Reviewed by Michiko Kakutani
When Albert Camus died in a car accident in 1960, a
manuscript of his unfinished last novel, "Le Premier Homme"
("The First Man"), was found in the wreckage near his body.
The novel was not published in France until last year, for
his family worried, as his daughter writes in an editor's
note to the American edition, that its publication "might
well have given ammunition to those who were saying Camus
was through as a writer."
At the time of his death, after all, Camus was seriously
out of fashion among French intellectuals. His denunciation
of totalitarianism in the Soviet Union and his failure to
commit himself to Algerian independence under Arab rule had
earned him the enmity of the left, while his literary
endeavors - engage, earnest and devoted to the consideration
of moral issues - struck the fashionable new avatars of
structuralism as old-fashioned, sentimental and contemptibly
humanistic.
A reassessment of Camus has long been overdue, and the
belated publication of "The First Man" should provide the
impetus for just such an undertaking. Though the manuscript
- which was to be the opening section of a projected epic
novel - was left uncompleted at Camus's death, it serves as
a kind of magical Rosetta stone to his entire career,
illuminating both his life and his work with stunning candor
and passion. In this highly autobiographical novel, the
reader can see the roots of Camus's philosophy in his
fatherless childhood, the roots of his social vision in the
anomalous political and cultural landscape of post-World War
I Algeria.
Camus had been in the habit, throughout his life, of
reworking everything he wrote, and his daughter, Catherine
Camus, observes in her introduction that he probably would
have "masked his own feelings far more" in a completed
version of the book. The very unfinished quality of "The
First Man," however, lends it an appealing directness
missing in much of his other writing. Unlike so many of his
letters and journal excerpts, these pages (which have been
deftly translated by David Hapgood) contain little
self-consciousness or grandiosity; unlike much of his
expository writing, they shimmer with a lyricism and
sensuousness that subsume the formalism of his prose.
The story that Camus recounts in "The First Man" is the
thinly disguised story of his own childhood - his version,
as it were, of the Combray section from "Remembrance of
Things Past." It is the story of a man named Jacques
Cormery, who at the age of 40 leaves France and returns to
Algeria, to search for information about the father he never
knew, the father who was killed in World War I, while
=============== Reply 49 of Note 31 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 11/20
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:20 PM
(cont)
Jacques was still an infant. Jacques never really does find
out much about his father: his mother is silent on the
subject; his father's friends, unavailable or reticent. What
this aging Telemachus recovers instead is the memory of his
own boyhood by the Mediterranean sea.
Jacques, like Camus, grew up in a neighborhood of poor
white immigrants in Algiers, a world defined by hard manual
work and a stoical will to survive. Vacations were something
unknown to his relatives; a few coins to buy a cone of
french fries, an almost unimaginable luxury. Nature, alone,
in its sublime indifference, provided a source of joy in
this willfully austere world: the dazzling Mediterranean
sun, the crashing surf, the sight of swallows darkening the
sky in their annual journey south.
All of Jacques's clothes were bought several sizes too
big, in the hopes that they would last a few more years;
often, they wore out before he ever grew into them. His
grandmother routinely whipped him for the smallest
infraction; his beautiful, sad mother - whom he worshiped
with unrequited ardor - rarely spoke or made a gesture of
affection.
Indeed, the Cormerys lived in a world of silence.
Jacques's mother, who worked as a charwoman, was partially
deaf, his uncle was partially mute; neither his grandmother
nor his mother could read. There were no books in their
home, no newspapers, no radio, no talk of the past or
future.
"Poor people's memory," Jacques thinks, "is less
nourished than that of the rich; it has fewer landmarks in
space because they seldom leave the place where they live,
and fewer reference points in time." Of course, he adds,
"there is the memory of the heart that they say is the
surest kind, but the heart wears out with sorrow and labor,
it forgets sooner under the weight of fatigue."
From this anonymous world of the poor, Jacques - again,
like Camus - is transported to the glittering world of books
and ideas, by a gifted teacher, who recognizes the young
boy's intelligence and fervor. Jacques wins a scholarship to
the local lycee, which, in time, will lead to university and
a brilliant career in France. His hunger for knowledge,
however, will also exile him from his past and from his
family: his beloved mother will never read any of his books;
she will never understand the magnitude of his achievements
abroad. Small wonder then that Jacques (and Camus) would
grow up as outsiders - to their families, to their wealthy
classmates, to themselves. It is an outlook that would
inform all of Camus's writing, from his famous debut novel,
"The Stranger," through such later masterworks as "The
Fall."
The reader of "The First Man" will be inclined to echo
the sentiments of Camus's biographer Patrick McCarthy, who
has argued (with only a little hyperbole) that the author's
"life and writing were shaped by a few images of his
childhood - the Mediterranean, the sudden silence of the
Algiers evening and, above all, his mother."
Having grown up without a father, Jacques (and Camus)
were forced to invent themselves, a fact that explains
Camus's lifelong preoccupation with questions of morality,
with questions of "how we should act" and how we should live
if we do "not believe in God or in reason." Jacques, he
writes, "was 16, then he was 20, and no one had spoken to
him, and he had to learn by himself, to grow alone, in
fortitude, in strength, find his own morality and truth, at
=============== Reply 50 of Note 31 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 11/20
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:21 PM
(Cont.)
last to be born as a man and then to be born in a harder
childbirth, which consists of being born in relation to
others."
The premature death of Jacques's (and Camus's) fathers,
the omnipresence of illness and misfortune in their
families' worlds, the constant threat of violence from
insurgent Arabs - all combined to reinforce Camus's sense of
mortality, his awareness of man's precarious position in an
indifferent universe, just as his own family's poverty and
the gross injustices he witnessed between the French and
Arab populations helped galvanize his sensitivity to
society's injustices.
The other dominant emotion in "The First Man" is
Jacques's (and Camus's) enduring love for their native
Algeria, a beautiful but unforgiving land that would occupy
a place in their hearts forever. That country is movingly
memorialized in this book, its brilliant colors, spectral
light and lush scents conjured up for the reader in
luxuriant and minute detail. Indeed, the love for Algeria
that Camus communicates in these pages goes far in
explaining just why - for all his sympathy with the Arab
cause - he was unable to commit to Algerian independence, a
development that would have meant the permanent loss, in his
mind, of his childhood home.
It was the Algeria of his youth, then, that shaped Camus
the writer, and the Algeria he could not forget that helped
determine his political fate. Or, as T.S. Eliot might have
put it: In his beginning was his end. In his end was his
beginning.
Copyright 1995 The New York Times
=============== Reply 51 of Note 31 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 11/20
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:27 PM
Yes, Barbara, I have it and am reading it.
Will get back to you when I am further into it.
Sherry
=============== Reply 52 of Note 31 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 11/20
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 9:59 PM
Sherry, Wonderfully enlightening article! Thanks for posting
it.
>>Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 53 of Note 31 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 11/20
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 10:02 PM
Barbara: An excellent desciption of Camus/Ward's writing:
"clean". So sharp and hard-edged; reminded me visually of
another warm, desert climate: New Mexico, where the colors
are so well defined.
I do wonder how we tell where the sharpness of Camus ends
and the edge of Ward picks up. Jane, could you possibly,
pretty please, give us a French paragraph (the ulimate or
penultimate would be interesting to me, but anything would
do), and then give us the translation with some commentary
and inserts on possible alternative translation schemes? I
know that's a lot of work to ask of you, but, after all
it would be a kind of sharing -- with those of us who took
bowling four times instead of sticking with those language
sessions. Even a sentence would be good....
Dick in Alaska who's feeling his lack of education
=============== Reply 54 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/20
From: KWWP63A SARA SAUERS Time: 10:46 PM
Okay, consigliere: So, it seems there are two sides to
this absurdity recognition deal. Side one is observing the
"gentle indifference of the world" and side other is the
view that "To stay or go, it amounted to the same thing".
It is the former you see as liberating, it is the latter I
see as paralyzing.
And it is his recognition of the former that makes me
feel some sympathy for Mersault and his inability to get
out ot the mire of the latter that made me want to throttle
him.
And why did I want Mersault, in his defense, to be
able to do what I couldn't stand OJ Simpson doing in his?
-Divina
=============== Reply 55 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/20
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:49 PM
Steve, Richard, Dale, and all,
I have been thoroughly enjoying your posts! But Sir R., I
need to correct you on one thing. The French do not refer
to
the Algerians as "pied noir". This term is used to describe
a
French person who was born in Africa, and such a person
uses the name with pride. I have several "pied noir"
friends,
and one of them wears a necklace that has a black foot
dangling from it.
Secondly, I still disagree about the heat. In the French
version the description of the heat at the mother's funeral,
on
the beach, and during the trial comes across so strongly
that
I have my students marks all of the passages pertaining to
heat. To give a few examples from the beach scene, I will
quote in French and then give my pitiful translation. When
the three men take a walk right after lunch, C. says, "Le
soleil tombait presque d'aplomb sur le sable et son eclat
sur
la mer etait insoutenable." (The sun was falling almost
straight down on the sand and its glare was almost
unbearable). Later when M. returns to the beach by himself,
C. describes, "Mais la chaleur etait telle qu'il m'etait
penible
aussi de rester immobile sous la pluie aveuglante qui
tombait
du ciel." (But the heat was such that it was painful also
for
me to remain immobile under the blinding rain which was
falling from the sky.) There is adjective after adjective
building up the heat sensation and the resulting confusion
of
M. When M. approaches the spring and sees the Arab, he
says that all he would have to do is turn around, but an
entire
beach vibrating in the sun is pushing him. The spring seems
so inviting. Heat is an extenuating circumstance!! Oui,
Oui!!
Jane who is glad to be discussing this great work with you.
Dick, I wrote this off line, so there is some French. Is
there a particular section you would like me to post.
P.S.S. The final scene with the cries of hatred, I think,
means that it is much easier to leave the world with no
attachments. The hatred makes M. much stronger.
=============== Reply 56 of Note 31 =================
To: KWWP63A SARA SAUERS Date: 11/20
From: BUYS59A BARBARA HILL Time: 11:18 PM
A few comments after reading Part One of The Stranger.
Mersault is alienation personified maybe anomie and apathy
would fit too. Because of his alienation his mothers death
is like a non-happening. He is attached only to transitory
sensory experiences. The reference to things "official" by
one of the CRs seemed to reflect the meaninglessness of
rituals and the travel-time thing showed him as often being
in a void.
I know very little about sociopaths but my dictionary
describes them as aggressively antisocial and this doesn't
quite fit Mersault's M.O. "The absurd man (and I'm quoting
here) sees his actions as purposeless and mechanical. They
take on a comical, nonsensical aspect."
The line "it wasn't my fault" appears a number of times in
Part One and I'm wondering why M. even thinks of fault when
nothing makes sense in his absurd world, and why he often is
apologizing for his remarks, or embarrassed, in that same
world?
Barb Hill
=============== Reply 57 of Note 31 =================
To: BUYS59A BARBARA HILL Date: 11/20
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 11:57 PM
This has been the best discussion in a long time. I hope to
start rereading this book soon, but in the meantime DICK AND
STEVE, your discussion has been will be a wonderful
background for a book I really didn't understand the first
time around. You two are certainly two of the most
intelligent members of CR. (Of course we're ALL
intelligent.) And GAIL (pardon the caps) thanks so much for
the interesting background info. And everybody else, I have
been SO IMPRESSED with this discussion.
Ruth, who thanks you all for your wonderful support
=============== Reply 58 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/21
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 0:04 AM
Dale,
Your comment about Camus's "passionate unbelief" brings to
mind one of Judge Holden's comments from BLOOD MERIDIAN:
Your heart longs to be told some mystery. The mystery is
that there is no mystery.
Or something like that. I'm paraphrasing.
--DJP, who's glad that Edwin T. Arnold has just written a
piece asserting that the voice of the narrator in BLOOD
MERIDIAN isn't Judge Holden but rather Tobin, the so-called
ex-priest. I'm sleeping better nights.
And yes, Strunk and White do say always use the "'s" as the
possessive of singular names, with a few notable
exceptions. Like "Christ," which they assert should never
be used in the possessive...best to rephrase.
=============== Reply 59 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/21
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 0:04 AM
Steve,
Just guessing, since I haven't read THE STRANGER, but could
M's wish to have people hootin' and hollerin' at his
execution indicate that he wishes for a SIGN that he
a) is not alone in the world, and
b) that his actions DO matter, at least to someone.
Wouldn't he wish for his life not to be absurd, even if he
knows logically that it is?
--DJP
=============== Reply 60 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/21
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 0:04 AM
Steve old chap!
Long time no see...still waiting for you (and a few others,
BTW) to give your commentary on my alleged fictional piece.
But my query here is different...how does TEH STRANGER
relate with/compare to/alter etc. Percy's THE MOVIEGOER?
Just thought I'd ask you assuming you've read the
thing...anyone else, jump in.
DJP, who is STILL having modem problems and has decided
it's the phone company's fault. BTW, you guys have been
busy this evening (mistyped that last and said you had been
"busty" this evening--now THAT would be shocking).
=============== Reply 61 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/21
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 0:35 AM
Mlle. Jeanne: You are quite right that 'pied noir' is a term
applicable to French colonial North Africans (as opposed to
Arabs or Blacks), and I have no doubt that now-a-days (and
even formerly) the term is something of a badge of honor
among survivng and ex-colonialists. However, in the bad old
days, before the cease fire negotiated at Evian-les-Bains
(and for some time thereafter) it was a derogatory term in
Metropolitan France, sort of "cou rouge" if you will (the
perils of a translating with your dictionary become
apparent...) And MANY thanks for the translations; please
give us some more if you're up to it; this casts more light
(and heat) on the heat issue. Have you ever been truly
scrod-faced with red wine on a hot, burning day? I remember
once on the shores of the Chesapeake, 4th of July give or
take a day, where the tannin and alcohol, plus Bre'r Sun,
had me heaved up close to the edge. You will recall
Meursault's alcohol consumption over lunch, and, further how
he was not particulary steady as a drinker (for example, his
tiddly evening with Raymond). Not a defense to murder,
exactly, but possibly a mitigator. Problem was, the poor sod
was so inarticulate. If only Camus could have spoken for
him, but put his heart in it....
Dick in Alaska, where the pups are getting fat, sassy
and delightful; if the scanner machine works, I'll post a
picture soon
=============== Reply 62 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/21
From: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Time: 1:42 AM
Jane, that "tombaint" really did something for me, too; I
know it as the Italian "tomba", which in addition to meaning
tomb is also a form of the verb for falling, apparently
falling catastrophically or devastatingly from the way it is
always used in opera. Yes, seeing the thing in French,
though I have but imperfect knowledge of the language, did
make a difference to me.
On the main theme, I see I'm going to have to contact the
hopefully not too grieving widow about getting more copies
of THE RED LION. This book is a further treatment of how do
you deal with the inevitability of death, or other ill
consequences, no matter what you do. The protagonist as a
youth in his first life asks "Can't they see that death
spoils life?" (Thus I rendered the clumsy Hungarian-into-
English.) This is the lure that leads him first to find a
magus and then to kill him to obtain the Elixir of Life.
His description of the "astral" demons this plunges him
amongst rival Dale's Tibetan devil visions. Eventually, by
much suffering, etc. to himself and others he works his way
through to a conclusion that is to me totally unacceptable.
Others might feel differently. Anyway, it would be an
interesting Eastern European counterpart to Camus. I
suppose Maria Orsi would be more or less Camus's
contemporary, though she has managed thus far to avoid both
auto accidents and Stalin. I begin to appreciate more the
fact that she actually liked and approved of the work I had
done on her book.
Cathy
=============== Reply 63 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/21
From: KEXT98A TONYA PRESLEY Time: 2:49 AM
ABOUT THE HEAT.....
I was particularly struck by one thing in M's description of
events leading to the murder - - he was wearing a jacket.
After 2 or 3 pages of detailing how oppresively hot it was
he says, "I gripped Raymond's gun inside my jacket". Then
he continues about the heat. For some reason I couldn't
forget the absurdity of wearing a JACKET on a beach in
weather that sounded hot as coals.
Tonya
=============== Reply 64 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/21
From: UPDQ58A PEGGY RAMSEY Time: 6:27 AM
Steve,
In the interest of holiday spirit, I'll keep what I know
about Santa to myself....
Peggy
=============== Reply 65 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/21
From: LQYA01B HUNTEROSE SANDMAN Time: 9:43 PM
Dick, Steve, and all:
Wow! What a load of great notes on this thread . . . please
pardon my still being in the note jotting stage.
Here is an odd thing --- on pg.6 of chapter one I was
shocked at Camus's use (or non-use) of specific colors in
his descriptions --- example: most of the page M describes
things as bright, white-washed,etc . . . also these bits; "
. . .(on the coffin?) all you could see were some shiny
screws." and, another reference is made to a "brightly
colored scarf" the closest thing to a vivid description here
are the walnut-stained planks . . . still seems to be
avoiding simple/direct notation re what color something is,
eh? Why?
The kicker is at the bottom of the page when M slaps the
technicolor switch on for one brief but potent second--- "He
had nice pale blue eyes, and a reddish complexion." BAM!
Like a tab of purple-micro dot kicking in. (That's a hit of
acid, yes?) Is this a deliberate thing that Camus
does? Still jotting, and searching for the little things .
. . pale blue and/or reddish are still rather
wimpy re impact, but put them together, and something almost
chemical occurs. (Steve, Dick, and all . . . don't worry
about spoiling my read (read it once awhile back). I would
appreciate your thoughts/theories on any of these
nit-pickings of mine.)
Something else that leaps out at me (yes, sorry . . . still
chapter.1) --- M seems to make quite a bit of concrete
statements re how people REALLY feel, and what they REALLY
are thinking. Remember when M states that everybody feels
sorry for him,
and Celeste says, "You only have one mother." ? I do not
think M interprets accurately . . . perhaps, Celeste's true
sympathy lies with M's mother, and she is simply expressing
what a lousy son she feels M is? More statements: "She
(maman) was use to it." and later, "While not an atheist,
maman had never in her life given a thought to religion."
Meursault knows for sure, eh? HOW? Perpective seems very
significant . . . any thoughts?
Hope to find fifty more notes again when I return! more
later . . .
Morpheus
=============== Reply 66 of Note 31 =================
To: KEXT98A TONYA PRESLEY Date: 11/21
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:54 PM
Tonya,
Thanks for pointing out the jacket. Even though I have read
this book many times, I hadn't noticed the jacket which is
"veston" in the French version. This can also be translated
as a lounge jacket. Maybe it is a beach jacket??
I also want to mention M.'s two neighbors and how they
ressemble each other. Both are men of violence who mistreat
the ones they love or should love. It is amazing that they
both really seem to like M. in spite of his indifference to
them. M.'s favorite expression is "Cela m'etait egal",
which translates as "It was all the same to me". What is
the English translation of this in your edition?
Jane who is practically a "pied noir" herself after spending
ten summers in French speaking Gabon, Africa.
=============== Reply 67 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/21
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 10:36 PM
Jane & Tonya: This is all so interesting to the language
impaired. A lounge jacket, eh? I visualized it as a burnt
linen sports number, two button and quel wrinquelled.
Suffused with auberge de odor de bodie Franceis ete.
(translation: French elevator smell in the summertime).
Anyway, powerful. And the neighbors -- the old man with the
dog. That was such a poignant, and powerful little piece of
writing. Showing the tenderness and love that can be
inherent in a supercially rough (even brutal) relationship.
Of course, where do you draw the line; always the question.
Dick in Alaska, still fascinated to distraction by this
small book
=============== Reply 68 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/21
From: VRCH78A ALLEN CROCKER Time: 10:53 PM
Madame Jane d'CR: In an effort to atone for my sluggish
performance with the reading group of late, I've acquired
both the first translation by Stewart Gilbert and the
recent version by Matthew Ward. I read the latter and have
been comparing it at various point to the former and am
quite struck by the remarkable divergence between them.
One thing that quite surprised me is that they differ even
in where paragraphs break, and in some places, the order of
sentences within paragraphs. I had no idea that translators
are wont to take such liberties, and wonder how much else
may be going on that I can't pick up on by side-by-side
readings of the two English texts.
To give those who have only one or the other translat-
ions at hand an idea of the way the two differ, here are
the opening paragraphs from each:
Stewart Gilbert:
Mother died today. Or, maybe, yesterday; I can't be
sure. The telegram from the Home says: YOUR MOTHER
PASSED AWAY. FUNERAL TOMORROW. DEEP SYMPATHY. Which
leaves the matter doubtful; it could have been
yesterday.
Matthew Ward:
Maman died today. Or yesterday maybe, I don't know.
I got a telegram from the home: "Mother deceased.
Funeral tomorrow. Faithfully yours." That doesn't mean
anything. Maybe it was yesterday.
And that's just for starters; even a cursory comparison
shows whole sentences that appear in one version and not
the other. I knew there'd be significant differences, but
that they occur to such a degree took me rather aback. Any-
way, I'd be grateful for any enlightenment you can give us
on the process of translation, what the above excerpts may
reveal about the two translator's approaches, and what
qualities *no* translation can ever communicate. After all,
it's not often we have an expert on an original text handy
to explain such subtleties, and I want to make the most of
this opportunity!
I'll have more to say soon about the book and some of the
comments that have already appeared here. Let me just put
in this reaction to the book's narrator -- he seems to me
like a human equivalent of a negative number: even if you
added something to him, you'd still have nothing. <>
=============== Reply 69 of Note 31 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 11/22
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 7:51 PM
greetings BARBARA...
oh yes..THE FIRST MAN is hot on the book selves...there was
a review in THE NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW a week or two
ago.......
gail..a passionate reader in a stunning day in SAN FRANCISCO
68-70.....HAPPY THANKSGIVING
=============== Reply 70 of Note 31 =================
To: VRCH78A ALLEN CROCKER Date: 11/22
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:03 PM
Allen,
Ward's translation is much closer to the French. If I were
to translate this passage I would say:
Today, Mom died. Or maybe yesterday, I don't know. I
received a telegram from the home: 'Mother deceased. Burial
tomorrow. Distinguished feelings.' It means nothing. It
was maybe yesterday.
This is an extremely literal translation, seeing as howe
don't say "distinguished feelings" to close a letter. We
would probably say "Faithfully yours" as Ward translate.
Here is the French text:
Aujourd'hui, maman est morte. Ou peut-etre hier, je ne sais
pas. J'ai recu un telegramme de l'asile:"Mere decedee.
Enterrement demain. Sentiments distigues." Cela ne veut
rien dire. C'etait peut-etre hier.
I did a little more research on "veston". I think that
Camus meant suit jacket. Another dictionary that I checked
said that "veston" meant suit jacket in American English and
lounge jacket in English English. So, Dick, I think you
might be right about the stinky linen jacket.
Jane who is busy cooking for Thanksgiving. Happy
Thanksgiving , dear CR friends!!
=============== Reply 71 of Note 31 =================
To: VRCH78A ALLEN CROCKER Date: 11/23
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 9:39 AM
Allen, thank you for taking the trouble to post
excerpts from these two translations side by side. And
thank you also, Jane, for your efforts. This is amazing!
Troubling, as a matter of fact. One can't help but wonder
how much of the Dostoyevski one has read was lost in
translation, for example. In this case I am going to see
if I can find a copy of THE STRANGER in French and see if I
can struggle through a few chapters to try to get the feel
of the original. There is certainly no question in my mind
which of these English translations that I prefer.
From the Bunker. 11/23/95 8:08AM CT
=============== Reply 72 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/23
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 5:44 PM
Steve, there is a book company here in Denver that you can
order foreign language books from. It is called Western
Continental Book Co. If you want the address and phone, let
me know. I would send you one of my copies, but they belong
to the school. Jane who is enjoying the smell of the turkey
cooking as it wafts through the house. (This is the only
group that I dare use the word waft to)
=============== Reply 73 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/23
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 7:14 PM
greetings MADEMOISELLE JANE...
good word..wafts...HAVEN'T HEARD IT ..IN AGES....keep those
beauties coming...
finished THE STRANGER...now i am reading all the notes...
gail..a passionate reader in warm..no fog..no wind..SAN
FRANCISCO..
=============== Reply 74 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/23
From: VRCH78A ALLEN CROCKER Time: 10:48 PM
Herewith, a few comments on THE STRANGER and the many
fine posts that have already appeared:
First, on the distinction between absurdism and exist-
entialism: as I understand it, they both begin with the
premise that life, the universe, and everything have no
purpose that is at all discernable to man. The essential
difference is in how they react to this: the existentialist
acknowledges that the only meaning in life is that which we
create, and believes thatit's *worth* doing so -- you must
fight the good fight. The absurdist, on the other hand,
merely says. "Why bother? We're all going to wind up dead
anyway." The former approach is active, positive, and
courageous; the latter merely lazy and cowardly. You might
illustrate it this way: an absurdist and an existentialist
each come across a book with THE MEANING OF LIFE on the
cover, and open it to find that all the pages blank. The
absurdist tosses the book aside and wanders aimlessly on,
while the existentialist says, "Ah! Here's my chance to
write my own book!"
I think Steve was spot on when he said that Mersault is
an example of precisely the wrong way to respond to the
lack of obvious meaning in existence. The character strikes
me as someone to whom absurdism is a way of life, rather
than a mere intellectual pose -- and he's a virtual
cipher, a hollow being, a blank page of a man. To actually
make absurdism your life's philosophy, you'd have to be
missing an awful lot of what it takes to be human, which
causes me to conclude that no one, really, is a deep-down
absurdist. Do you think that M, faced with the hypothetical
choice between a short, painful life and a long, happy one
would say, "Makes no difference to me."? If he's to be
consistent to his "philosopy," that has to be his response,
but it's obviously a mad one. So I don't find Mersault at
all sympathetic, or even a believable character. To me
he's more of a literary construct than someone you can
imagine as really existing.
On the question of why M. killed the Arab: I'm not
even going to try to puzzle this one out, becuase I think
Camus's purpose was to leave it a mystery. Mersault him-
self doen't know why he did it, and AC (as far as I can
tell) doesn't put in enough clues for us to fit together
to find an answer. Indeed, if there was any explanation of
"why" of the murder, the book would fall apart. In a novel
whose theme is pointlessness, the central act about which
everything revolves, to be effective, must be the absolute
epitome of pointlessness.
Since Morpheus found all these little bits and pieces
of interest embedded in the text that I totally missed, I
thought I should try and find at least one. Well, how
about this: In the cafe, and later at his trial, Mersault
observes someone he descibes as the "little robot woman"
busily scribbling notes to some unknown purpose. Who is
she, and what's her reason for being in the novel? As far
as the plot goes, there is none; no connection between her
two appearances, or anything else about her, is given.
A non-absurdist novelist couldn't get away with this --in
"regular" novles you don't just go putting in peculiar
characters for no reason. She just seems to be there, as
the universe itself is "just there." It also serves as an
example of M's way of attending to everything with about
the same degree of interest; he has no particular reason
to tell us about this woman, but no reason not to, either.
To Mersault, all things are of equal value, which is about
the same as saying that nothing is of value at all.
Thanks for all the fine notes we've had in this thread,
and also to Steve for nominating THE STRANGER. The perfect
book for a BB discussion -- easy to find and quick to read,
but not so easy to fathom, and with much meaning to be
mined from it!
Allen
=============== Reply 75 of Note 31 =================
To: VRCH78A ALLEN CROCKER Date: 11/24
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 4:25 PM
Allen: Enjoyed your note on the distinctions between
existentialism and absurdity; the life-as-blank-book analogy
makes wonderful sense and will stick with me a long time, I
believe.
I'm looking forward to starting ANGLE OF REPOSE,
>>Dale, finally reposing thankfully at a very slack angle
after the rounds of Family Thanksgiving II in Ala.
=============== Reply 76 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/24
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 4:29 PM
Jane: Great word, "waft." I'll have to find an excuse to use
it in a manuscript, soon.
Before the Camus thread begins winding down in preparation
for Stegner, I'd appreciate it if you could give me a
"literal" translation, if such a request makes sense, of
Meursault's line from the ending of THE STRANGER that Ward
renders as "For the first time, in that night alive with
signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference
of the world."
Thanks!
>>Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 77 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/24
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 4:45 PM
I read THE STRANGER last Wednesday afternoon. It was much
easier going than I remember the first go round to have
been. Perhaps the new translation? I had a great
fascination with the existentialists when I was younger, and
some of it still lingers. However, this is a disturbing
book, and left me feeling disoriented for the rest of the
day. Mersault seems to me to be more numb than callous.
Unable to feel, rather than unwilling. But I'm not sure how
this works into the scheme of things.
About the trial, am I the only one to have felt I stepped
right into Alice in Wonderland?
Ruth, who needs to mull over this for a while
=============== Reply 78 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/24
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:44 PM
Dale,
I am oh so glad to oblige. Here is the French "Comme si
cette grande colere m'avait purge du mal, vide d'espoir,
devant cette nuit chargee de signes et d'etoiles, je
m'ouvrais pour la premiere fois a la tendre indifference du
monde." Literal English - " As if this great anger had
purged me of evil, emptied me of hope, before this night
loaded with signs and stars, I opened myself for the first
time to the tender indifference of the world." I find the
sentence just before this one to be significant, "Et moi
aussi, je me suis senti pret a tout revivre." And myself
also, I felt ready to relive everything. M. felt liberated
by his approaching death.
Allen, I feel that the scene with the robotic woman was put
there to show M.'s powers of observation. I guess I am more
sympathic to his character than the first few times that I
read this book. Perhaps you should read THE MYTH OF
SYSIPHUS in order to understand C.'s view of existentialism.
Sartre believed in being "engaged" in one's life, and C.
believed that just being alive was enough.
Jane who is a big fan of CR discussions.
=============== Reply 79 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/24
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 11:02 PM
Jane: Many thanks for the translation. A beautiful line, in
either language. One more question: I guess the word "signs"
is what throws me a bit, because I assume it's in the sense
of "portents," which seems to be something that would more
aptly occur to a person who's either religious or
superstitious, neither of which Mersault strikes me as
being. Is there another context for "signs" I'm missing, or
do you think this was actually a "sign" that he was
paradoxically opening himself to a broader, perhaps even
spiritual, view of the world?
>>Dale, fascinated by THE STRANGER in Ala.
=============== Reply 80 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/25
From: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Time: 0:48 AM
I confess I approach this subject from a different slant
altogether. When you tell me of a person speaking and
responding as Mersault did, the first thing I think is
"serious mental health problem" - not what philosophy he
came from. I've known enough disturbed people one way and
another to have seen some with similar symptoms. For
instance, I knew a young man who seemed to enjoy being hated
and reviled, as Mersault wanted to be at his execution. Self
hatred, or a feeling that hatred is better than indifference
? I can't say which, but both may be mixed in there
somewhere.
Cathy
=============== Reply 81 of Note 31 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 11/25
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 9:49 AM
Ruth: I, too, felt THE STRANGER took on a definite surreal
edge when Meursault hit the court system. (But then, I've
had more than one court experience myself where I actually
glanced around to see if Mr. Funt's Candid Camera was
present for the proceedings.)
I was most unprepared when Meursault's seemingly low-key
magistrate, in exasperation, grabs the crucifix from his
filing cabinet and shakes it at the interviewee. Odd echoes
of old vampire movies there, I think.
One part that really sticks with me is when the judge
shouts at him, "Do you want my life to be meaningless?" Very
illuminating of a certain "religious" mindset that still
exists (flourishes, actually, but don't get me started)
nowadays.
So many well-meaning people undertake the onstensibly
unselfish goal of encouraging right behavior or converting
the heathen, or whatever, when underneath there's a
terrifyingly rabid self-interest involved, i.e. protecting
one's view of the universe's "meaning," and hence once's
ego, from becoming unraveled. Small wonder that reasonable
debate is out of the question at that point, or that so many
folks go off the deep end in the face of the world's "gentle
indifference."
>>Dale, for whom all this strikes a real nerve, in Ala.
=============== Reply 82 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/25
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 10:38 AM
Dale: It may be fully apparent to everyone, but I wanted to
add a comment about Meursault's trial in terms of the French
justice system. They view the role of judge and attorney
rather differently than do we -- with the objective being to
ascertain "the truth" and not merely avoid conviction of the
innocent or the achievement of "justice" on the societal
level. To this end (viz., "truth") the magistrates make
endless preliminary investigations of the crime -- as was
the case here. Although we aren't given many details, it
seemed to me that Meursault had already, by the time of
trial, given the court chapter and verse on his sweaty, sun
drenched trudge down the beach as well as whatever
additional light he could shed on the shooting itself. That
this information was singularly unhelpful to the magistrates
and to the lawyers is evidenced by the fact that they
waunder through the peripheral issues at trial, examining
Meursault's character via a review of his funeral conduct,
and of his personal life (they sure seemed upset at a little
hanky-panky for a bunch of French guys, didn't they? Is it
possible there are conservative, keep it in your pants
Frenchmen, or are there just more aggressive hypocrites?)
Anyway, to me Camus's point here was twofold: the justice
system was doing as it was intended, looking for causation
and truth, under every rock and in every corner, while
Meursault is setting there saying, in effect, "There is no
truth or causuation in these events, they merely ARE." In
the end, since the system demands causation and truth in
some form, they are created out of the bits and pieces of
Meursault's former life, and used as the justification for
his execution, even if, when viewed in isolation such bits
and pieces are an absurd basis for the taking of a life.
Dick in a frigid Alaska
=============== Reply 83 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/25
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 11:53 AM
Dick: Wonderful note on the mechanics of M's trial; very
enlightening to me. The authorities WILL have their
causation and truth, won't they?
I loved the, pardon the expression, gallows humor when
Meursault is listening to the judge and attorneys doing
their jobs and keeps thinking, "Hey, I'm the criminal, here;
when do I get to talk?" But even then, he's realist enough
to know that "Whatever interest you can get people to take
in you doesn't last very long." Heavy, heavy book.
>>Dale in clear and chilly Ala.
=============== Reply 84 of Note 31 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 11/25
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:40 PM
Dale,
Here are the definitions of "signe" fr my HARRAPS dictionary
(a British English dictionary). "sign 1. Indication (of
rain, grief); symptom (of illness); mark, token (of
friendship) Ne pas donner signe de sa vie, to show no sign
of life. 2. Symbol, mark. S. algebrique, algebraical sign.
S.a.croix I. 3.(Distinctive) mark (on the body). Adm:
signesparticuliers, special peculiarities (of a person). 4.
Gesture, motion. Signe de tete, nod Signe des yeux, wink.
Faire sign a quelqu'un, (i) to motion s.o., make a sign to
s.o.; (ii) to beckon to s.o., faire s. a qn de faire qch.,
to sign s.o. to do sth. faire s. que oui. to make an affirm.
sign. En sign de respect, as a token of respect.
Dick, You forgot to mention that in the French judicial
system, people are considered guilty until proven innocent
which is the opposite of our system.
Jane who is having a heck of a time typing today.
=============== Reply 85 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/26
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 10:39 AM
Mlle. Jeanne: The reason there is no presumption of
innocence under the Code d'Instruction Criminelle or the
Penal Code, is that the by the time you are charged in
France the magistrates, prosecutors and police (all working
hand in glove) have gathered sufficient evidence to convict
you; while that evidence is rebuttable at trial by the
defendant, it is not deemed 'potential' evidence as it might
be here in the states -- it's solid proof in the hands of
the state that you are guilty. If the state is going to the
trouble of putting you to a public trial (no jury in France
or indeed in most continental criminal systems) they're not
going to leave much to chance. My impression is that
acquittals are rather rare in France....
Anyway, I just wanted to clarify that while continental
systems are pretty harsh by American standards, it's not
quite correct that people are presumed guilty -- there has
to be proof, but once there is proof, you're in a world of
mal.
Dick in Alaska at 5 below
=============== Reply 86 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/26
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 4:00 PM
Actually, Dick, wouldn't one be in le monde de (or is it
du) merde?
Vulgarly from Memphis,
--DJP
=============== Reply 87 of Note 31 =================
To: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Date: 11/26
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 4:49 PM
Marty: that sure captures the spirit of my comment; how
about le merde profond? I'm at the mercy of my tattered copy
of Cassell's French-English in these matters, heretofor used
exclusively for the Times crossword and the odd gallicism in
my reading material. Now of course, I'm exposed to all the
francophiles on this board, and I practically sleep with the
thing. Anyway, you get my tendance? And please feel free to
jump in here -- I'm doing an awful job explaining French
criminal law and any add-ons would be appreciated.
Dick in Alaska where the Christmas stuff has been hauled out
by the kis, according to the wife, but I think she put 'em
up to it.
=============== Reply 88 of Note 31 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 11/26
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 9:45 PM
Dear All,
I'd like to hear some discussion about the issue I raised in
my previous post, that of what I saw as Meursalt's emotional
numbness, his inability to feel anything. It takes
impending death to breath through this barrier. How does
this emotional desert relate to existentialist/absurdist
theory or is it just something I, alone, read into the book?
Reading, I was completely unable to care what happened to
Meursalt. How could I empathize with someone who has no
feelings? But I couldn't hate him either. Do you think
this is the reaction that Camus wanted from the reader?
Dick? Steve? Jane?
Ruth, in Redlands, who, even though she speaks no French, is
in heaven with the new Edith Piaf CD she bought today (Piaf
is so FRENCH)and wonders if Jane is also a fan
=============== Reply 89 of Note 31 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 11/26
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 11:27 PM
Now Ruthie, nobody is ignoring you. In fact I just
checked in here rather late simply to read the posts with
no intention whatsoever of writing anything myself . I
really should be packing in anticipation of a VERY early
Monday morning departure for Chicago to try to earn a buck.
However, I can't bear this plaintive plea I read here:
"Dick? Steve? Jane?"
I really don't think that Mersault inspires a lot of
sympathy or even empathy in any reader, Ruthie. Nor do I
think that Camus had any conscious intention to portray
anything through Mersault other than the absurdity and
irrationality of this world, although far be it from me to
attempt to read the mind of a twenty-eight year old Albert
Camus. I do still feel that given a little more reading of
his later work, one can only conclude that Camus himself
ended by campaigning against just the sort of impassivity
and unemotional "acceptance" of the absurd that Mersault
displayed.
As for Edith Piaf, "The Voice of the Sparrow," you
display rare good taste, Ruthie. Mine is entitled THE VERY
BEST OF EDITH PIAF, and it gets a lot of play around
here--not just for show by a long shot. I must admit that
I am part of the masses in the sense that my favorite still
is and probably always will be "La Vie en Rose." What a
tune, and what a perfect voice for it!
By the way amid my extra credit reading in connection
with THE STRANGER thread, I ran across a short essay by an
old favorite of mine, Morris Bishop, commenting on the role
of literature in French society and contrasting that with
the role of literature in American society. I know you
would find it thought provoking and interesting. I am
taking the liberty of transcribing it and sending it to you
via e-mail as soon as I return in about six days.
Certainly, if anyone else is interested, I will be happy to
add others to the distribution list if they will just drop
me a brief e-mail note in the meantime.
To be honest with you, Ruthie, this is all just a cheap
attempt to curry favor with you in the hope that you will
help me get my hands on a copy of your volume of poetry.
You have given me a tiny sip, and now I am cut off and
desperate. La belle dame sans merci, if ever there was one!
From the Bunker. 11/26/95 10:26PM CT
=============== Reply 90 of Note 31 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 11/27
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:50 PM
Ruth,
I don't know if I feel that M. is actually numb. To me he
is an observer of life and a very objective one at that.
Remember that Camus wrote THE MYTH OF SYSIPHUS at the same
time as he did L'ETRANGER. Sysiphus had the horrendous job
of pushing the stone up the hill each day and watching it
roll back each night. For Camus at this time in his life, t
this was enough. To be alive was enough. M. is kind of
like Sysiphus in that 'to be alive is enough'. He did love
the physical side of life - making love to Marie and
swimming and laughing at movies. But you are right. It
wouldn't be enough for me. My students and I always
discuss M.'s talking about being stuck in a tree with only
the sky to look at, and how reading the same article over
and over, and how remembering each detail of his room at
home wouldn't be enough for us. It was enough for M. and
for Sysiphus as well. Perhaps it was C.'s way of rejecting
Sartre's idea, that life must be given meaning by becoming
engaged in it. I do feel a certain sympathy for M. Jane in
Colorado where it has been snowing all day.
=============== Reply 91 of Note 31 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 11/29
From: GGTZ54D HUNTEROSE SANDMAN Time: 8:25 PM
Dear CR's:
For the kitty of criticism I found a few bits Re: L'
ETRANGER . . .
"Camus's thought did not stop with the absurd treatise, THE
MYTH OF SISPHUS. In the post war years he moved away from
the atomistic veiw of man (the individual in independant
revolt, as in THE STRANGER) toward an emphasis on human
solidarity in the revolt against the irrational (represented
as suffering in THE PLAGUE) We might say that Camus became
"socialized," or at any rate more humanistic, in the *modern
sense . Although few could accept the Absurd equilibrium as
a pattern for living, and although Camus's solution is
perhaps too tainted by his own personality to have universal
validity, his insight into the basic problems of
being human is very keen, and its literary expression is
undeniably beautiful."
Robert S. Tate, Jr., "The Concept of Absurd Equilibrium in
the early essays of Albert Camus," in The South Atlantic
Quarterly (1971 Duke University) summer pp. 377-85
Good stuff, yes?
Morpheus in Atlanta
*copyright 1973 Gale research company
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Albert Camus
When I teach the absurd I use the works of Ionesco, because
he depicts the world as an absurd place, where nothing has
any meaning. I suppose that Camus carries this thought
somewhat further, but I really think he is an
existentialist. To me there seems to be a lot more humor in
absurd literature than in existentialism.
Jane
It is apparent that the actual facts surrounding the
murder of the Arab, played no part in the determination of
Mersault's fate in those judicial proceedings. Rather his
perceived attitude toward the death of his mother
determined his fate.
Steve
The line "it wasn't my fault" appears a number of times in
Part One and I'm wondering why M. even thinks of fault when
nothing makes sense in his absurd world, and why he often is
apologizing for his remarks, or embarrassed, in that same
world?
Barb Hill
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