Synopsis:
Joe Allston is a retired literary agent whose parents and only son are dead, and who feels that he has been a mere spectator through life. Then a postcard from a friend causes him to return to the journals of a trip he took to his mother's birthplace to search for his roots; memories of that journey reveal that he is not quite spectator enough. Winner of the National Book Award.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (1 of 37), Read 37 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 13, 2000 07:55 AM
This is one of my favorite books this year. Boy, Stegner is smooth.
His powers of description are as clear and as evocative as any
writer I have come across. I still remember a section of Angle of
Repose that described a western mountain scene. His characters
zing with life. They are as real to me as my next-door neighbor.
And his description of Joe and Ruth’s long relationship is absolutely
believable. I don’t usually underline in my books, but I couldn’t
resist. And I started right away with "I had been … forced to
choose whether I would be a talent broker or a broke talent." And
"It is hard to be relaxed around a man who at any moment might
examine your prostrate." And not all funny. "Do I hate the thought
of Curt’s death more because he never fulfilled himself, or more
because he never fulfilled me?" How succinct he is about some of
life’s darkest questions. I’m so glad to find he has written other
books about Joe and Ruth.
Sherry
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (2 of 37), Read 32 times
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From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 13, 2000 08:25 AM
Sherry, I agree totally about the naturalness of the characters.
It's hard to believe that this book isn't autobiographical.
David
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (3 of 37), Read 29 times
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From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 13, 2000 08:37 PM
Sherry,
Here is a quote that I love from the first page. Joe is talking about
their move to California.
"Maybe because the bush tits are doing what I thought we would
be doing out here, just messing around, paying no attention to
time or duty, kicking up leaves and playing hide-and-seek up and
down the oak trunks and generally enjoying themselves."
Don't we all want retirement to be like that?
I think it will be interesting to discuss the loss that Joe expresses
when he talks about their son Curt.
Jane
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (4 of 37), Read 32 times
Conf:
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, July 14, 2000 09:06 AM
I stayed up late to finish ALL THE LITTLE LIVE THINGS( sheepishly,
I admit this book's ending had me in tears...it is so incredibly
moving..) In this book, is a 23 page letter Joe wrote to a friend,
describing so much of Curtis' life and beliefs and what sort of
relationship they had with one another. It might be something that
would clarify what Joe and Ruth went though with this adult "kid".
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (5 of 37), Read 27 times
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From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 14, 2000 09:16 AM
I enjoyed the landscapes Stegnor is so adept at presenting. The
rainstorm that the Italian writer visited during was so deftly
described that later in the text I had difficulty stopping the rain
from falling on anyone who was outside.
In fact, Stegnor almost paints with the weather, using it to
heighten atmosphere or provide a counterpoint to the main action.
The symbolic significance of the landscape is not overly done--it
seems natural that the weather would do what it does within this
novel.
Stegnor's artistry is amazing. He makes it all seem just
natural--almost like an entry in one of the pages of Allston's
journal.
Dan
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (6 of 37), Read 36 times
Conf:
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From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Friday, July 14, 2000 11:12 AM
I'm about halfway through this gem. It was wonderful to find an
intimate friendship with Joe and Ruth beginning to develop
somewhere between the hours of one and five A.M. when I
couldn't sleep last night. (This is not a bid for sympathy, by the
way. Insomnia's another friend, almost, and in summer it's almost
pleasant to be the only one awake for hours and hours, and just
read, knowing I can sleep all day if I want.)
The quote that gave me the spiritual pricking down the back of my
neck that I get when I stumble upon something I think is sort of
mine alone (a lonely feeling) was this one:
"You expect some revelation? You think you may recognize
something? You expect that closing a link with your mother's past
will make you feel safer in some way?"
This because it put me back two summers ago when I went up the
east coast to Massachusets, to a tiny town called Interlaken,
hunting for the house my mother grew up in, my great
grandmother's house. I found it, and due to a vivid imagination or
an otherworldly experience, I did "close a link," and I did "feel
safer."
The passage made me yearn for something similar to happen to
Joe. I think my "reality" and Joe's "fictional" experience might really
be reversed as fact and fiction, in some ways. . .Anyway, I relived
my experience through the wonderful cynicism of Karen Blixen's
character. I don't know how clear this all is. I had to share it.
Janet
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (7 of 37), Read 39 times
Conf:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, July 14, 2000 12:32 PM
That passage resonated with me, too,Janet. And I thought of my
recent visits to a couple of my childhood homes, and toyed with
the idea of trying to find my mother's childhood home near
Stamford, Conn. while we're back east for the Boston confab.
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (8 of 37), Read 28 times
Conf:
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 07:13 AM
I am half way through as well, and am
really charmed by his descriptions. He
really is smooth. That storm on the way to
Denmark was so freaky and the waves so
detailed that I felt afraid and sick to my
stomach by the idea of people out on the
deck! Oddly, this is similar to the third
book in The Deptford Trilogy in some
ways that someone has said they are
reading. I am also intrigued because my
father went on such a trip to Denmark to
tramp around where his father grew up
and to visit his aunts grave etc. I am
definately going to get him a copy for his
birthday!
I am somewhat depressed at the ideas of
him not feeling a past, or that so many
people in general see their past as such
a short time period and their familys
sense of sucess or failure as their
own...but I jump the gun, as I'm only half
way through...
back to it then!
Candy
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (9 of 37), Read 28 times
Conf:
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 08:51 AM
Candy: Good to have you on CR!
I'm also enthralled by Stegner, having made it past the ocean
crossing section. Way too real for comfort, particularly since I'm so
prone to motion sickness I can't even do porch swings.
I was a little wary of Joe at first because most crusty old
characters get on my nerves pretty quickly--probably because
they hit too close to home--but now I love the guy.
So many great asides: "Crucifixion can be discussed philosophically
until they start to drive the nails in."
I also agree with whoever said above (Steve?) that Stegner is the
master of the one-sentence character description. As in their
rakish buddy Caesare: "He loves himself so much you have to love
him too."
Good, good writing. Can't wait to get back to it.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (10 of 37), Read 28 times
Conf:
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 09:42 AM
'Tweren't me, Dale. I'm right on top of this one though and couldn't
agree more with the very favorable comments about this book
above. Joe's voice is a very real one and nicely conveys a bright,
good man in the midst of a quiet crisis. One feels comfortable with
Joe.
I am learned previously here to be cautious in comments about a
book that I am only half through. Whatever happens, I will say at
this point that I am envious of this marriage between Joe and
Ruth. I really do like this marriage and the way it works.
There aren't many great books with an aged character at the
center, are there? It just so happens that one of my all time
favorite novels, The Old Man and the Sea, is one. You would think
that as we boomers descend into old age, the market for a
literature of aging would heat up, wouldn't you?
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (11 of 37), Read 28 times
Conf:
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 10:33 AM
Steve: I agree, re: the Alstons' marriage. I suspect this is about
as good as it gets.
Somebody mentioned that the novel has an autobiographical feel,
and I'm sure there are elements of that here. But I also know that
Stegner is so good at writing other people's realities that it's very
hard to tell the difference.
For instance, I once read that people who met the Stegners after
reading CROSSING TO SAFETY were quietly aghast that his wife
wasn't in a wheelchair. Every emotional detail of that experience
had been so convincing in the novel that they assumed it had to
be autobiographical.
The same is true of a (very under-rated, I think) novelist named
Hilma Wolitzer, who wrote ENDING, about a woman whose husband
dies prematurely and leaves her to raise two young sons. The book
is so emotionally overpowering that readers who meet her in
person inquire delicately about the circumstances of her husband's
death, only to find he's much alive and kicking.
As I writer, I would think such incorrect assumptions are one of
the highest compliments that can be afforded a piece of work.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (12 of 37), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 10:58 AM
Dale and Steve,
What I've been curious about is whether Stegner really had a
friendship with Karen Blixen or not. I was imagining him grinning
mischievously as he wrote about her "withchlike" character and the
impression Joe has of her own image of her "pseudo" life after her
"real" life in Africa. He must have know her well, don't you think? I
wonder what she thought of herself as portrayed. That is probably
my favorite part so far. I've read some excerpts from OUT OF
AFRICA and will go back eventually to fill in the gaps.
Janet
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (13 of 37), Read 31 times
Conf:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 11:33 AM
Funny, I wasn't as enamored of Crossing to Safety and Angle of
Repose (which I thought went on for way too long) as some here,
but I loved SB.
I'm a complete sucker for graceful prose and a witty phrase (hence
my love for Cheever and Updike). I'm a sucker for Karen Blixen and
for descriptions of California landscape. And I had fun with the
Danish, which is enough like Norwegian that I could read it and
congratulate myself for having done so.
Rather than write something new (I'm feeling lazy this fine
Saturday morning), now I'll just paste in what I wrote to Pres
about this book:
But more than that, with my 65th birthday (which is a milestone of
sorts) looming next month, and Leif having just had his 72nd, the
book addresses themes that are much in our thoughts nowadays.
To wit, what it's like as life gets to speeding by, faster and faster,
and the vista ahead is shorter and shorter, while the physical plant
is giving out mysterious shakes, rattles and rolls, and we become
unwilling experts on a variety of ailments we'd rather not know
about. The book engendered much thought on my part. Altho some
of it wasn't cheerful thought, it was good, serious thought.
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (14 of 37), Read 33 times
Conf:
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 12:10 PM
I think you should go back and fill in the gaps of Out of Africa,
Janet. . .and join our forthcoming discussion of it this November in
Classics Corner.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (15 of 37), Read 31 times
Conf:
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From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 01:31 PM
Ruth-
I also read with interest Joe's comments on aging. And as much as
I love this book now, I want to read it again when I am closer to
his age. As it is now, I read SB more as a spectator, though I have
heard many of the same sorts of comments from my mother, who
just turned a lively 75. I find myself identifying strongly with Joe,
as my baby boomer body is starting to show signs of aging. It's
just that I think I will have a more complete understanding as I
age.
I think what strikes me most about Stegner, besides his stunning
one sentence character summaries, is the manner he uses to
convey the sense of what it means to be alive and relatively
insignificant in the grand scheme of life. His characters' struggles
to make sense of their everyday existences ring a bell of
recognition in my heart.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (16 of 37), Read 23 times
Conf:
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 09:54 PM
There is something about old Joe that leaves me sad and
unsettled. I tend to think it is because there is a sort of "learned
helplessness" about him, mostly over the death of his son. I had to
return this book to the library, and someone else had reserved it
so I don't have it on hand to refer to, but wasn't there a question
of whether or not Curtis' death was an accident or a suicide? At
least in his parent's mind? I know this was spoken of in the book
ALL THE LITTLE LIVE THINGS... (posted this in the middle of the
thread by accident..oops..sorry guys...)
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (17 of 37), Read 27 times
Conf:
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 03:23 PM
Wow, there are so many things to think
about in this book. At first I didn't like Joe or
Ruth, I thought they seemed awful with
each other, but by the end I saw that they
really were lovely and not all naggy and
stuff. In fact any naggy stuff they both
seemed to ultimately take it as signs of
'love' and it is compared to birds taking
care of each other. I felt very disturbed by
his opinions of his sons life, and felt this
didnt get reconciled by the end of the
novel. I found it weird that he didnt notice
that his stage in life was very similar to
how his son had chosen to live, just at a
younger age. Also the experimentation
and dis-satisfaction of the bizarre Danes
with their 'breeding' practices seemed to
mirror his dissatisfaction with Curts life. I
just found that really sad, and as I also
always kinda wondered "Is that what old
people think of us?". That was weird to
see a character from the inside who is
judgemental of 'the younger set'.
I also laughed aout loud at some of his
grumblings and ultimately thought he
was an incredible character. I didnt think
he was an 'outsider' because I loved his
involvement with nature and his
surroundings. I thought that showed how
he had an involvement deeper and
sensitive than he thought. So the part
where the Italian art star visits and
doesnt understand how they could live in
California or a quiet rural life, made me
think of how he couldnt understand how
his son could live that way.
Bennyway, I'm not sure what all this
means I'm saying and its just my initial
response to finishing book, but over all I
thought he was a fantastic character.
Candy
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (18 of 37), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 04:17 PM
All: There's a neat site hosted by San Jose State called "Literary
Locales," which has photos of writers' homes. I'm still trying to find
more info about Stegner and Blixen's relationship, but in the
meantime here is Blixen's place...
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (19 of 37), Read 28 times
Conf:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 06:55 PM
I can't make the link work, Dale.
I kept trying to pinpoint exactly where Joe and Ruth lived. Or
rather, where Stegner had them planted in his authorial eye.
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (20 of 37), Read 32 times
Conf:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 07:11 PM
Me neither, Ruth, but I got a nice offer to buy a car.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (21 of 37), Read 32 times
Conf:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 08:18 PM
Me, too.
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (22 of 37), Read 32 times
Conf:
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 15, 2000 10:06 PM
And what is going on with Joe and his little landlady there in
Denmark? There was something almost ethereal about her, and Joe
seems to be so frustrated that she has accepted her lot in life. But
there is more there...why have a 20 year case of the guilts over
one little kiss? One postcard from her, and he drags out all these
journals...
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (23 of 37), Read 28 times
Conf:
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From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 07:05 AM
Beej-
I got the impression that though nothing more than the kiss
happened, Joe is torn with guilt because he chose not to "rescue"
Astrid. I think he knows he could have had a very different kind of
love with her and regrets the lost opportunity.
However, he also understands that he and Ruth are meant to be,
and wouldn't change that for the world.
He tells Ruth, "...I mean there just was never any real choice.
There was no question.....I would have liked her company the rest
of my life...and eventually I forgot her...I couldn't have forgotten
you that way. I'd have regretted you the rest of my life." p. 212 in
my Penguin edition.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (24 of 37), Read 29 times
Conf:
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From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 07:08 AM
I like the quiet solidity Joe and Ruth have for each other. They
may get irritated with each other and have it out, but each knows
that the foundation of their love is rock solid.
How does Stegner write his characters and their relationships so
vividly? I feel a personal connection with both Joe and Ruth.
Stegner has moved into my top 10 authors list.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (25 of 37), Read 27 times
Conf:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 10:16 AM
One thing that I've been wondering about is the Adventure in the
Castle (including the bit about selective breeding). What was that
all about? Why did Stegner include this in his tale? What function
do you think it served?
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (26 of 37), Read 22 times
Conf:
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From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 01:45 PM
All,
I wondered about the kiss as well and
why that haunted him for all those years. I
guess it was about losing that kind of a
friendship or the road not taken.
Oh that crazy castle family!! I too
wondered about that. As I said in a post
yesterday I wondered if we aren't
supposed to kind of compare joes
dis-satisfaction with his son to the
genetics mad men in that castle family...
As I've thought about this overnight and
from a lot of the posts here, I too share a
joy about these two and their great
friendship. It sure points to the idea that
the best romantic relationships are
rooted in friendship.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (27 of 37), Read 21 times
Conf:
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 02:24 PM
It appears to me, that a lot of what is significant in this book
centers around control. Joe was merely a "spectator bird" in his
son's life. Astrid seemed to surrender any control in her situation.
And yet, the ultimate control here..superior breeding, is horrendous
and negatively impacts many lives, including Joe's mother's.
Perhaps any parallel that can be formed between the selective
breeding and Joe's dealings with his son (and his son's death),
centers around the control issue...
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (28 of 37), Read 18 times
Conf:
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 02:35 PM
All: Still can't locate a picture of Stegner's home, but at least here
are a couple from his hometown of Los Altos Hills, south of San
Francisco...
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (29 of 37), Read 23 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 02:05 PM
Ruth & All: Doggone it. I still can't get the link to the photo of
Stegner's homeplace to work. And nobody even tries to sell me
anything...{G}
I did, however, find out that he was a resident of Los Altos Hills for
the last 40 years or so of his life. Here's a reference to him in a
1998 newspaper article:
Wealthy Head for the 'Hills'
But can town accommodate them without compromising its rural
environment?
By Carol Tiegs
Town Crier Staff Writer
In the mid-1950s, threatened by encroaching development and
wanting "to hang on to an image," residents of what today is Los
Altos Hills reluctantly banded together and incorporated as a
township.
Summing up the incorporation cause at a pre-incorporation
meeting, resident and noted author Wallace Stegner said, "After
all, ladies and gentlemen, we are only trying to save God's little
acre."
"We want the sun and air and quiet of a community which has
given itself enough space to breathe in; the relaxed pace of
country life and rural pursuits - rabbits, dogs, chickens, sheep,
cattle, horses..." an incorporation campaign leaflet said.
Not long before Stegner's 1993 accidental death in a car accident,
Ramona Chown, a resident of the town since 1965, spoke with him
about the town. "He was very disappointed and discouraged about
how things had developed," Chown said.
Town residents love the peaceful life in Los Altos Hills. It's
attracting new residents daily.
Planning Director Curtis Williams said the town has received 35-40
building permit applications annually over the last three years,
double the number for the early 1990s.
And yet disappointment, discouragement and dissension are
palpable.
"Los Altos Hills is losing its soul," said Chown and her
daughter-in-law Valerie Chown in a Town Crier interview.
At issue is how the town can preserve its rural environment while
accommodating residents' property rights and their changing
desires and concerns.
It plays out in debates over house size and details of design,
predictability of planning review and value of off-road pathways...
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (30 of 37), Read 18 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 05:11 PM
Beej-
Thinking out loud here.
Interesting point about "control" as a theme in SB. Perhaps the
relationship between control and Joe's deceased son has to do
with being able to accept an "aberration." I am thinking of the stag
with the deformed antler which Eigil wants to kill off.
Joe understands that the stag is not perfect, yet he is shocked at
the idea of simply doing away with anything that does not
conform. He realizes there is intrinsic value, even in the imperfect
relationship he had with his son?
Joe has spent much of his life trying to come to terms with his
attempt to control his relationship with his son. Perhaps it's not
until he meets Eigil and learns of his cold scientific approach to
breeding the perfect line that Joe begins to accept his relationship
with his son, imperfections and all? No, that's not quite it, either.
His struggle is more complex than that.
This is a vague idea for me right now. I'll ruminate and get back to
it.
Meanwhile, help me out here. We're on to something.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (31 of 37), Read 17 times
Conf:
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 07:22 PM
Kay, I've been trying to tie it together myself.maybe he sees his
son, and the stag, as having redemptive qualities beyond the
flaws. His son died before these qualities surpassed his "flaws". and
what about the tennis match between these 2 men?
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (32 of 37), Read 16 times
Conf:
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 07:37 PM
Kay, do you suppose, especially in the light of the idea that Curtis'
death might have been a suicide, that Joe was simply furious ,all
those years ,with Curtis for dying before he realized that "Father
knows Best?"...Like you, simply thinking out loud here...
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (33 of 37), Read 15 times
Conf:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 08:18 PM
Was Joe really furious with Curtis, or was he just furious with fate,
or the situation, or why he couldn't understand his son?
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (34 of 37), Read 16 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 08:31 PM
Ruth-
Good question. What parent hasn't had to struggle with the "you
can't tell me how to live my life" rebellion of her children? I think
you're right - Curtis died before the conflict could be resolved. No
parent should have to be denied the enjoyment that comes from
having an adult to adult relationship with her child. It's one of life's
ultimate pleasures.
Joe could have dealt with Curtis' death easier, I think, if there was
no question of whether it was suicide or not.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (35 of 37), Read 16 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 08:31 PM
Eigil most certainly have believed in "survival of the fittest", and
Curt probably didn't fit into what most people would consider "the
fittest" with his beach bum lifestyle. Perhaps, the buck that Joe
saw made him see that there is value in keeping those who are not
the fittest and he saw some value in his son's short life. Maybe,
this is a stretch. I am not a parent, but I can imagine that a
suicide would be a parent's worst nightmare.
Jane
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (36 of 37), Read 14 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 09:23 PM
Perhaps Joe saw a side of himself that had little appeal to him,
when he saw Eigel intended to kill a "nonconforming" being.
I think Joe was furious because he had no control over Curtis.
Curtis disturbed Joe's simple order of things.
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (37 of 37), Read 12 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 16, 2000 09:38 PM
I think a line from the front jacket flap says so much...JOE WAS
KILLING TIME UNTIL TIME KILLED HIM.."
(or on that line..)
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (38 of 69), Read 48 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, July 17, 2000 05:21 PM
Beej, Jane, Kay, Ruth & All: I very much agree that the issue of
emotional control is at the heart of the strange and wonderful
animal that is THE SPECTATOR BIRD, as was also true--albeit in a
very different context--of Stegner's novel CROSSING TO SAFETY.
Just thinking out loud, here, but it seems to me that of all the
professions that would require a genetic passion for control, the
insane dog-eat-dog crapshoot that is agenting/publishing (at
which Joe apparently had more than average success) would be
near the head of them.
That said, I think it's not accidental that the area of Joe's personal
life in which he's arguably had the most success is his
marriage--precisely for the reason that he's long ago accepted the
fact he can't control it.
Case in point: early on, with the flamboyant Caesare and his new
sweetie arriving early for lunch during a monsoon and power
failure, and Ruth understandably bouncing off the walls, Joe says
"Relax. We'll make it."
To which Ruth responds, "Oh, relax!" and bounces a notch higher.
To which Joe says to himself, "When she gets into one of those
states she resents any attempt to soothe her. Only last-ditch
desperation is permissible."
I know couples who have been together 50+ years and have not
figured out this equation. (It only took me 25 {G}). I believe that
part of Joe's wisdom and grief, which are often inseparable, is the
thought of "what if" he had applied this same technique to the
other parts of his life, most specifically his son.
But then, this is the kind of book that makes one want to think out
loud. God bless Stegner and his characters.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (39 of 69), Read 43 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 17, 2000 08:23 PM
Dale,
That was a very good post, as usual. The fact that Joe and Ruth
still have problems and arguments after all these years make them
seem like a real couple.
I need to read more Stegner!
Jane
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (40 of 69), Read 46 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, July 17, 2000 10:20 PM
Stegner is one of my favorite American authors and this book
didn't disappoint me.
I didn't think that Joe ever reconciled himself to his son's
premature death. I expected Stegner to provide some sense of
resolution regarding this issue since it seemed to be at the heart
of Joe's sense of a wasted life. Instead he left it hanging, which
struck me as very realistic. A man like Joe would never get over
the lost possibilities his son's death represented.
I really enjoyed the discussion of the role of control in this novel.
At the end, Joe finds personal satisfaction in his own sense of
self-control. Attracted as he was to Astrid, he chose to remain
faithful to his wife. He recognizes that his marriage was the main
accomplishment of his life. Not too many people can say that.
As for Karen Blixen, I have seen pictures of her after she returned
to Denmark and she really did look like an old crone or witch. Her
husband had infected her with syphilis early in their marriage and
she was never completely cured. In her later years, she had very
painful syphilis of the spine, which also caused crippling abdominal
pains, extreme thinness, and heavy facial wrinkles. She was not a
pretty sight.
Ruth, I agree that the genetic experiment part of the story
seemed pretty far out. I wonder what made Stegner come up with
this.
I do have one question for everyone. Why oh why didn't Astrid
leave Denmark in all those years? Did she feel a sense of guilt that
compelled her to stay and take her punishment? If so, why?
Ann
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (41 of 69), Read 45 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, July 17, 2000 10:36 PM
Would leaving Denmark have changed anything tho? Maybe she
was comfortable with her misery just as it was...
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (42 of 69), Read 44 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 07:39 AM
Ann,
I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt
disturbed by the lack of resolution of Joe
and his feelings for his son, the
disappointment and the loss. This has
been bothering me for a couple of days
just how unresolved that aspect of the
book was, but I think you made a good
point that that is one of those realistic
parts of life added to book. It made me
very sad some of the things he said about
his son. The Italian novelist who judges
Joe and Ruths 'new' lifestyle was a little
like how Joe felt about his own sons
lifestyle. Joe seemed to feel that living a
life enjoying the outdoors and friends was
not a good life goal, yet there he was by
the end of his life living very similar even
same State as his son.
Candy
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (43 of 69), Read 42 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 08:01 AM
When I first read the synopsis on the back cover for The
Spectator Bird, I was afraid it was going to be one of the usual
Madison Avenue stories. "A literary agent trying to find meaning
late in life", I thought...not my cuppa, as Ruth says. However, I
trusted Stegner after the other two books I'd read of his. Also,
Dale said that this was Stegner's book closest in style to those
two: Crossing to Safety and Angle of Repose. And, hooray, I'm
glad I did. Have been recommending this to everyone in the past
week.
In a subheading under that broader issue of "control", I kept
thinking about the difference in attitude between my expectations
for life at age 21 and the age 53. Most people assume at the
outset of their adult life that they will be able to mold the major
events of their life: spouse, children, job, lifestyle, etc. At age 53,
I'm realizing that I influenced things that I never expected and had
little or not control over what I thought would be so important.
Joe, I thought, was coming to those realizations, as well. What
disdain he would have felt for a man who became a literary agent
instead of an author when he was in his 20's. Would he ever have
thought when he was 21 that it was possible to love two women,
maybe even equally? And, doesn't everyone think that they will be
able to raise a child with the "right" attitudes and priorities,
according to their definition? The hard won realities range across a
continuum from bitter to sweet, I think.
I thought that the story of the genetic engineering fit in quite well,
actually. It's an interesting rumination on what happens if this
desire to make things turn out the way we want them to is taken
to ultimate steps. We want to think that it's ridiculous. However,
I've always thought that the important lesson of some of the
horrors of our history, such as Hitler, is that they are a part of the
human condition. There are elements of them in all of us, giving us
warnings to be even that much more on guard.
Barb
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (44 of 69), Read 45 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 09:34 AM
Barb writes:
Most people assume at the outset of their adult life that they will
be able to mold the major events of their life: spouse, children,
job, lifestyle, etc. At age 53, I'm realizing that I influenced things
that I never expected and had little or no control over what I
thought would be so important... The hard won realities range
across a continuum from bitter to sweet, I think.
Barb: If ever one of life's truths was put in a nutshell, you sure
nailed this one, I think.
One of my favorite quotations from the New Testament is from my
main man, St. Paul. He says, "That which I would do, I do not.
That which I would not do, it I do."
The man sure knew--as did Stegner--the human condition.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (45 of 69), Read 35 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 10:01 AM
All--
Just finished this book last night. Ann, I think that the Countess
could not leave Denmark any more than Joe could have stayed.
Her sense of responsibility, loyalty to the Family and in a strange
way, her father's memory was a mirror to Joe's commitment to
Ruth, but also a foil to his love for her (Ruth). The ironic thread
running thoughout this novel seems pervasive and a huge part of
thematic thread weaving the complexities of character together.
Joe feels his son has been disloyal by leaving; the countess cannot
leave. Ruth can accept her son's refusal to conform and even his
death; Joe cannot. The Countess's father's bizarre lack of
conformity to society in the name of "science" is approved by the
brother who wants to reject imperfection in humans and stags, but
who conforms to his father's experimentation, an experimentation
considered by "normal" society to bring out the very worst in the
human animal, ethically speaking. But Joe is capable of pondering
his own revulsion with the incest: is it
sin, a crime, sickness, or a biological taboo(?)
Joe proves himself capable of self-analysis to this degree, thus
perhaps proving he also has the POTENTIAL for accepting his son's
choices and perhaps even his suicide, eventually. Great points
made in the earlier posts; I'm attepting to piece together some
puzzle parts, but not sure it's all fitting. I also see problems ahead
with my own stepchildren and the choices we already seem to be
trying to make FOR them--I think I have learned valuable stuff
from Stegner and from CR's. . .
Janet
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (46 of 69), Read 36 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 10:42 AM
I have just finished reading SB, and read through all the posts
here.
Like Dan, I was taken with the force of the weather Stegner
depicts, both in California and on his trip to Denmark. If there is
any constant aspect of our lives that demonstrates our lack of
control, it's the weather.
Then there is the aging process. Joe is saddled with arthritis, and
sharing his angst all the way. At the same time, he know the
alternative because his friend Tom Patterson has a death
sentence. He has some regrets about some of his life choices, or
non-choices, and he is crabby about it. I think this depiction is
written close to the bone for many of us, or perhaps all of us, and
it makes us squirm.
When this book was written in the 70s, it was hip to think that all
of your problems could be solved if you just "talk it out". So Ruth
urges Joe to get it all off his chest. But it turns out that the
journals don't quite go to the end of the story, and getting to the
heart of the matter doesn't always solve the problem.
I too, love so many of the depictions. One of my favorites is Joe's
rant about how you can't cure arthritis, just stave it off as in a
battle.
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (47 of 69), Read 41 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 11:26 AM
Just a small quibble, MAP. Joe has a death sentence, too--as do
all of us--and is very well aware of it.
As I indicated earlier, this is clearly great fiction on the subject of
aging. I certainly have not changed my mind as I near the end of
it. Certainly, you are absolutely correct in your observations about
our discomfort with all this. I found Joe's observations about the
dwindling opportunities to improve one's life to be painfully
accurate and very poignant.
Barb's comments about inventorying one's life are very apt, also.
One progressively looks back more than one looks forward in spite
of one's best efforts. It apparently is an inevitable part of the
aging process. The spirit with which one does it is what counts, I
guess. Joe and Ruth undertake this with quite different spirits. I
need to finish the last part before addressing that any further
though.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (48 of 69), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 04:11 PM
Here's a gem of a paragraph, from p. 177:
"And how about the effect I produced at the table by mentioning
the name Sverdrup? Everybody there except Ruth and the little
baron reacted as if to hydrogen sulphide. I may even have brought
on the old lady's attack, though Ruth tries to assure me that
nobody can take any blame for the strokes and heart attacks of a
person nearly a hundred years old. Still how do you read it? Here
she comes out tottering, propped up by pride and will to do her
matriarch's duty to her granddaughter and her granddaughter's
friends, and pow, said friend utters the forbidden name, smoke
rises, there is a stink of brimstone, beautiful ladies turn into
snouted beasts, the plates slither with live eels, the family
portraits reel on the walls, and the offending one saves himself
only by laying his knife and fork crosswise. The matriarch holds
herself together long enough to be helped out, and drops dead."
I love this, and so many other wonderful passages.
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (49 of 69), Read 38 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 05:07 PM
Mary Ann-
I found myself laughing out loud several times during my read.
Joe's take on things is quite whimsical at times.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (50 of 69), Read 37 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 08:46 PM
I have been enjoying all of these notes.
I picked up my book just now, and it opened to page 186. On this
page, the countess tells Ruth and Joe that both of her parents had
committed suicide. This is before Joe realizes that the countess is
not the daughter that the father slept with.
Joe must have admired the countess for continuing on. She is most
definitely a survivor, and Joe and Ruth learned from her example.
In spite of all the gossip about her family and her husband, she
soldiered on as best she could.
I also love this scene: p. 101 Joe, Ruth and the countess are
driving to the home of Karen Blixen.
"Then we came to a stretch of beechwoods, and the light
changed. Everything went palely green and gold. Between the
smooth gray trunks the grass was starred with white anemones or
hepaticas. The leaves passing over our heads were tiny, delicate,
tender as pale green flowers, a tinted mist that in a couple of days
would be a green roof. Fairies must have been invented in a spring
beechwood. The ladies exclaimed and fell silent. At the far edge I
made a quick U-turn and came back through. We rolled slowly with
our heads tipped back, and at the edge turned again and came
through a third time. Druidical magic"
No wonder both Ruth and the countess were in love with Joe.
Jane
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (51 of 69), Read 41 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 11:03 PM
Stegner wrote his greatest books when he was over 60: Angle of
Repose at the age of 62, The Spectator Bird at 67, and Crossing
to Safety at 78. He had accumulated a lot of wisdom and insight
into human nature by then and it shows in his work. What do you
think? Is it unusual to be writing so successfully this late in life?
Regarding the theme of control, it is interesting that Joe felt he
would be ceding control to Ruth if he opened up to her about his
true feelings.
"Catching me with my feelings showing would give her power over
me as surely as if she had collected my nail parings and tufts of
my hair.
It is always risky to speak in generalities, but I think that most
women are helped by verbalizing things and talking them out. Men
avoid this like the plague. As far as I can determine (help me here,
guys) they seem to see it as a weakness. I enjoyed Stegner's
insight into these male/female differences.
Candy, I do think that it is ironic that Joe's life in California,
centered on nature and friends, ended up very similar to that of
his son's --with legal drugs substituted for illegal ones, of course.
However, he seems to have judged his own life there to be just as
meaningless as that of his son.
As for Astrid, I am still puzzled by the fact that she didn't escape
from her tormented life in Denmark. Mixed in with her horror at her
father's actions, there must have been some love. She did go to
visit his grave. When she left, she curtsied. Surely, this was a sign
of respect. (That curtsey was a perfect touch, wasn't it?)
Maybe the ties to home were so strong that she couldn't break
them. The story opens, after all, with an immigrant returning to
the village of his birth. It's not so easy after all to cut loose from
our origins.
Ann
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (52 of 69), Read 47 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 18, 2000 11:24 PM
One chiming in. Yes. Men avoid this like the plague. And it is the
plague.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (53 of 69), Read 46 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 19, 2000 07:32 AM
Jane, I'm not so sure Astrid was not the daughter her father was
obsessed with. She was barren, remember? So he could have slept
with more than one daughter. I think this obsession is the reason
the town ostracized her.
I have a question, which I think may have been answered in the
book, but I'm still not quite sure. Why did Joe's mother really leave
Denmark? The speculation that the father wanted to get all the
non-relatives out of the way seems rather weak.
BTW, don't you love the word "quisling"? I just looked it up and it
turns out much more specific than I had imagined. "Vidkun Quisling,
died 1945, Norwegian politician who collaborated with the Nazis."
Sherry
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (54 of 69), Read 50 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 19, 2000 07:52 AM
Sherry, In ALL THE LITTLE LIVE THINGS, it goes into Joe's mother's
background, and apparently the young girls who lived and worked
on this estate were also subjected to this genetic breeding thing.
She left to avoid being a part of this. And she suffered great
hardships for the remainder of her life,moving from area to area in
the States, hoping to make a bit more money here or there(mostly
cleaning houses) with which to support herself and her son.
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (55 of 69), Read 48 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 19, 2000 09:37 AM
Ann: As to subject of male/female verbalizing, I think you're
exactly right as to the gender differences, but I don't think men
necessarily regard talking about feelings as a sign of weakness.
In fact, Steve and I have had an ongoing colloquy about this very
subject, lo these years, and though it's always dangerous to
generalize, we have found (correct me if I'm wrong, Steve) our
own experiences in this regard to have been virtually identical.
Indeed, it's our feeling that males could be spared much angst and
misunderstanding if they could have tattooed at birth, on wrist or
hand, the simple advice: "Never volunteer information."
I'm not being cynical or misogynist about this. It's just been my
experience that women, in general, are FAR more verbal and
mentally agile in discussing feelings, opinions, and preferences than
men are, and far LESS prone than men to saying really stupid
stuff, off-the-cuff, without thinking it through. When talking to
any female about feelings, I feel totally out of my league.
A good nine times out of ten, revelations that I make about myself
lead to (a) an argument and/or hard feelings, or (b) being used as
evidence for the prosecution in some future discussion months,
even years, down the road.
Whereas, the worst charge I've ever drawn for keeping my mouth
shut is that I don't talk enough about my feelings. Guilty as
charged, I can say, and go on. Could be a lot worse.
On a side note...even at times when in-depth discussions of
spousal feelings are inevitable, or even healing, I find them to be a
tremendous emotional drain from which I don't recover for days. As
a fiction writer, I know that I have a finite quantity of emotional
energy during any 24-hour period, and I can either put it into my
life or into my characters. Life is short, art is long.
OK. That said, how deep a hole did I dig for myself just now? {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (56 of 69), Read 46 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 19, 2000 10:14 AM
Actually, Dale, I think Stegner does a wonderful job of portraying
in part what you are talking about. Ruth sits there watching Joe
intently as he reads and picks up on things that he does not think
he is revealing. Perhaps, that is in part what he is referring to in
this quotation that Ann has set out about power. Frankly, the only
problem I have with this novel is the premise that Joe would ever
consent to read his journal aloud to Ruth in the first place. He
seems to me a more sane man than that would indicate him to be.
I shall risk some generalizations, too. First, women are much more
intuitive and much better than men at interpreting non-verbal
things. This is the reason that it is so much easier simply to
conceal things from women (read, "keep your mouth shut") than it
is to lie to them.
Second, men and women are many times working at cross
purposes during these discussions of "feelings." When a man is ill
advised enough to enter into one of these colloquies, he does so
with the thought of solving a problem. The woman, on the other
hand, is concerned with talking about the problem. These are two
quite different objectives.
Again, I think Stegner does a wonderful job with these kinds of
things.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (57 of 69), Read 42 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 19, 2000 11:52 AM
Actually, I agree with Steve & Dale here. In fact, Joe says it well
at one point (I forget the circumstance) when he notes that Ruth
wants the information, but sometimes the information can be too
rough for her to take. In my experience, this kind of sharing is only
wise if it is going to lead to mutual problem-solving.
Also, I believe Stegner exposes Ruth's (and perhaps women's, in
general) real motives in having the journals read: she wants to get
to the part she thinks is there, Joe having an affair with Astrid.
I also have to say that I was surprised that Ruth was surprised
that Joe never got over Curtis' death. Did she? And if it were her
journal being read, could she read that part 20 years later without
having an emotional reaction? I expect not.
I think the reader, male or female, is meant to identify more with
Joe in this novel.
On another note: I loved the commentary on Walter Cronkite made
in SB. Does anyone here think that Stegner is saying anything by
the fact that life works of Joyce Carol Oats, Edwin O'Conner,
Eugene O'Neill and Katherine Ann Porter got wet during the storm?
Cesare gets to be dismissive of these works, which makes me
wonder what Stegner thought of them.
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (58 of 69), Read 39 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 19, 2000 12:19 PM
MAP, thank you for understanding that I did not intend to imply
any value judgment on the different approaches of men and
women, most particularly married couples, to these discussions. I
simply intended to describe how this all seems to work based solely
upon what older, more experienced men have told me.
Some wise person opined--and I am paraphrasing here--that a
little dishonesty is necessary in any successful marriage. It is
uncompromising honesty that blows 'em up.
A related converse situation arises in The Dubliners. I cannot
remember the characters' names, but you will recall that after the
dinner party, the husband learns for the first time of his wife's
young love who died. He also learns that she still thinks of that
young man and continues to mourn her loss. The whole thing
comes as a tremendous shock to him.
You pose a fascinating question concerning the books that
Stegner chose to get soaked, one that didn't occur to me. I'm not
sure we can know what Stegner intended to convey by this, but
we can be darned sure he didn't chose these authors at random
and with no conscious purpose.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (59 of 69), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 19, 2000 05:35 PM
All,
Thanks for the comments on the male/female attitudes about
discussing "feelings." I think you're onto something when you say
that men generally expect the discussion to result in solutions,
whereas women are often comforted by the mere verbalization.
Although I can talk to my sister and my friends ad infinitum about
feelings and relationships, I realize that I am very careful how I
phrase my responses to what they tell me. I figure my role is one
of support and I more or less expect the same from them. Maybe
men get burned by being too honest? I don't know, but since my
husband makes Joe look like a compulsive confider I have always
wondered about this.
Sherry, it also occurred to me too that Astrid may well have been
sexually abused by her father. But wouldn't that have been even a
stronger reason for her to leave? Unless, of course, she was
psychologically damaged and felt compelled to suffer for her own
acts and those of her relatives.
Beej, how interesting that this genetic experimentation theme
appeared in a book published 9 years earlier. I'm glad I didn't know
that was coming because I really enjoyed the surprises in this
novel.
Ann
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (60 of 69), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 19, 2000 06:04 PM
Ann, it was really interesting how these two books went together
like a hand and a glove. He not only mentioned his trip to Denmark
several times, but there were so many little facts that are in both
books! Its almost as if he mentioned tidbits in the first, and then
went back, picked up on some, and wrote the SPECTATOR BIRD.
Obviously, Joe is either partly autobiographical or Stegner is a
genius at character development. My guess is that its a little of
both.
As I read ALL THE LITTLE LIVE THINGS, the two novels became
"blended" in my mind. I am not sure if this earlier novel outright
told of the selective breeding, or merely mentioned there were
some "evil doings" going on with the Lord of the manor...but I'm
pretty sure it actually told of the selective breeding.
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (61 of 69), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 19, 2000 09:53 PM
Beej,
Stegner absolutely excels at character development. Like Joe, the
characters in his other books that I have read (Angel of Repose
and Crossing to Safety) ring so true to life I feel like they could
step off the page and shake my hand at any minute. All three of
these books deal with marriage. Angel of Repose also has a
parent's guilt at the loss of a child as one of its themes.
Ann
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (62 of 69), Read 26 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 20, 2000 09:11 AM
In addition to Stegner's insights into marriage, I think he's done a
pretty spectacular job with the father/son relationship and a
parent's reaction to a child's death. In my experience of it (not my
own child, but my sister's oldest adolescent son), it's truly a
wound that never heals. I tried to think of a less soap
opera-sounding description, but nothing else fits just now. And,
unfortunately, death comes when relationships are far from being
resolved. In this case, it was Joe's only child, his only reflection of
himself as a parent. I think that the pain is probably unimaginable.
And, Joe's need to fix things and make them "right" would make it
even worse. If Stegner had brought Joe to acceptance on this
point, I would have thought less of the story as a whole.
Ann, I thought that Astrid couldn't leave Denmark because of how
enmeshed (is that a word?) she was in its history and her family.
She seemed both ashamed and in love with her family in particular.
The curtsy was a perfect moment, I thought, very poignant. Also,
I don't think she could make up her mind to finally abandon her
husband, leaving the country would do that.
On the relationship thing, Dale and Steve, it took me about 20
years and 3 marriages to realize that total honesty is a
prescription for disaster! But, in our case, believe it or not, my
husband wants to talk more than I do...usually late at night, not
right after he gets home from work. And, if you're thinking that
there must then be a lot of talking going on in our house, you're
right!
Barb
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (63 of 69), Read 20 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 20, 2000 09:23 AM
Ann's comment that Stegner did some of his best work after the
age of 60 interests me. I picked up his collection of short stories
(in Denver with CRs!) and only made it through the first few. They
were good but just didn't grab me. However, they were placed
chronologically and I'm thinking now that I should read the later
ones.
After we read Angle of Repose and Crossing to Safety on CR, I
asked for other Stegner recommendations and Dale said that a
friend told him that The Spectator Bird was most like those two.
Makes sense since it was written between them. There's also
another book between Spectator Bird and Crossing to Safety
entitled Recapitulation. Any comments on that one? Also, has
anyone here read his earlier writing? I've always wondered about
The Big Rock Candy Mountain and that was written in 1943.
Barb
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (64 of 69), Read 22 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 20, 2000 09:33 AM
Barb: I haven't read BIG ROCK CANDY MOUNTAIN or
RECAPITULATION, but a glance at some reviews tells me that the
first is based in Stegner's rough upbringing on the frontier, with a
sometimes cruel bootlegger father, and RECAPITULATION is a
follow-up with many of the same characters.
I do remember reading a book of essays by Stegner, most of them
about the landscapes of the West, that were absolutely stunning.
For my money, they were in the class of Edward Abbey's naturalist
writing, which is about as good as it gets. Wish I could remember
the title.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (65 of 69), Read 18 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 20, 2000 09:48 AM
Barb: Ah-hah! I found the title of the Stegner essays I was talking
about...
WHERE THE BLUEBIRD SINGS TO THE LEMONADE SPRINGS: Living
and Writing in the West
Beautiful, beautiful stuff.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (66 of 69), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 20, 2000 10:42 AM
Was that the last thing he published, Dale? I've been curious about
it before. Thanks for the recommendation.
Looking in my Collected Stories edition, I found the following
dedication:
For Mary, in gratitude for fifty-three years of close collaboration
and for patience beyond the call of duty
After reading The Spectator Bird, this is not a dedication that I
just breeze by.
Barb
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (67 of 69), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 20, 2000 10:46 AM
Barb: I'm thinking you're right; WHERE THE BLUEBIRD SINGS has a
publication date of 1993, which was the year of his death. May
even have been posthumous, for all I know.
I noticed in his bibliography that he and Mary co-edited a
collection called GREAT AMERICAN SHORT STORIES. Sounds like,
opposites that they were in many ways, they had a great working
relationship, as well.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (68 of 69), Read 16 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 20, 2000 01:16 PM
Dale: I'm finding that "Where the Bluebird Sings" actually came out
in 1992, a year before Stegner's death from complications due to
an automobile accident.
Wallace and Mary had one son, Page Stegner, who also
collaborated on several works with them. Apparently, the family
that writes together...
A question for those who have also read Crossing to Safety:
Stegner often throughout SB to "finding a safe place". Is that
expanded upon in Crossing to Safety?
David, now checking to see if his library has a biography of
Stegner
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (69 of 69), Read 12 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 20, 2000 06:39 PM
Gosh, I liked this novel. A lot. Those two final chapters coming in
tandem as they do are splendid.
In the penultimate one certainly the kiss and the curtsy are high
points. The image that got to me most, however, was this one:
At the last second, as the door was closing, I saw her put her
hands to her head and bend over from the waist in a wild,
abandoned movement as purely physical as if she were vomiting.
She straightened, and I closed the door.
A quick glimpse of real anguish that.
I mentioned earlier the difference in the spirits of Joe and Ruth.
Didn't this ending perfectly capture that? Ruth wants to go to the
other side of the house optimistically confident that they may be
able to see another lunar rainbow, something for which they have
already used up their once-in-a-lifetime chance. Joe consents and
goes, pessimistically confident there will not be one. Of course Joe
is right, but this is a marvelous pairing, this couple.
Oh, MAP, I have that other thing sorted out in my own mind.
Clearly, these authors who get soaked are ones whom Joe admires
very much and undoubtedly Stegner, too. Neither admires the work
of authors who traffick in graphic sex, the very stuff which Césare
Rulli apparently writes. So these books were put there simply to
allow Césare the opportunity of sniffing at them contemptuously
and thus give us another snippet of insight into him, insight that is
not intended to be flattering.
This became clear to me when I ran into this in the chapters I
spoke of above:
I could imagine how the Danish adventures of Joseph Allston would
be written up by Césare Rulli, or by any of the machismo brigade,
or by the Pleasure Principle seminar, or by any of those
romantics, male and female, who live by the twitch. . . .
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (70 of 100), Read 69 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Teresa Hess (tbrowninghess@utah-inter.net)
Date:
Friday, July 21, 2000 09:21 AM
I've been on vacation, and return to see you've collectively said
beautifully what I felt upon reading SB. I can't recall having read
anything that approached Stegner's skill in describing the aging
process (he nails it, time after time) or his explorations of the
intricacies of the marital relationship.
That said, I'm going to play the devil's advocate and say that the
sections of the book that took place in Denmark did not resonate
with me the way the "Joe and Ruth" sections did. Perhaps, picking
up on Steve and Dale's thread, it is because I am a woman and
am more interested in the relationship aspect of Joe's thoughts.
And maybe it's because parts of the Denmark parts seemed
artificial and contrived to me.
A couple of thoughts...despite having been acquainted with Astrid
for some time before learning of the genetic experimentation, Joe
was for a brief period very quick to believe that she had been a
willing participant with her father. His repugnance fairly dripped off
the pages, and it struck me he was awfully quick to judge before
knowing all the facts. How much did this aspect of his personality
come into play in his relationship with his son? Coupled with the
control issues you've already expressed so beautifully, I had to
think that hairtrigger judgment and an unbending desire for control
are a pretty deadly cocktail when dealing with one's children.
Also, was anyone else struck by how much Ruth and Joe's
relationship seemed to revolve around her need to nurture and his
need to be nurtured? I like to think that he opted not to choose
the Astrid path solely for the reasons he stated, his respect and
love and enduring partnership with Ruth, but is it also tied up in
his choosing the "safe" route over passion and the unknown? I'd
love to hear your thoughts, Teresa
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (71 of 100), Read 62 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, July 21, 2000 04:09 PM
Welcome back, Teresa! Enjoyed your comments on TSB. As part
of the LCO (Loyal Chromosomal Opposition) here, I have to add
that all of the Denmark sections, no matter how bizarre, had the
total ring of truth to me. (Maybe the Danish are the Southerners
of Europe when it comes to bizarre and shameful family
happenings being taken for granted.{G})
And one of the most exhilirating (and vicariously, physically
painful) of the Denmark sections to me is when Joe, full well
knowing better, takes Eilig up on his offer of a tennis game. Hard
as I've tried not to, throughout my life, I've been there. And not
even with as rewarding a pyrrhic victory as Joe's.
So much rich stuff of life, and of honesty, in this book, for people
of whatever age and gender.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (72 of 100), Read 57 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, July 21, 2000 06:39 PM
What a great string of notes. I've only been away from a
computer for a few days, and what a treat I find now. There are
so many comments I'd like to make in response to so many
well-worded notes, that I don't know where to begin.
So I guess I won't begin, but will just address one thing---the
title. I think that Joe himself is the Spectator Bird. It's not so
much that he looks back on his life and regrets his choices, but
that he looks back and realizes that he had choices, but he wasn't
aware that he had them--that he just kind of rolled along with life,
ad-libbing and reacting to what came, instead of taking charge,
full steam ahead, of his own destiny. A spectator of his own life,
more than a participant.
Ruth, who also tends to be a Spectator Bird
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (73 of 100), Read 61 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, July 21, 2000 08:25 PM
Steve, Thank you. I'm sure you're right about those authors. But
now I have another question: I Cesare supposed to be any author
we'd know? Or is he just a type?
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (74 of 100), Read 57 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 22, 2000 02:27 PM
Teresa,
I enjoyed your note about Joe and Ruth's relationship. You
mentioned that Joe stayed with Ruth because it was safer than
going with passion and the unknown. It fits right in with the
Spectator Bird part of Joe that Ruth mentioned also. Joe is one of
those people who doesn't react well to change.
At the risk of starting a full-scale war of the sexes here, I want to
say that it is kind of nice that Joe chose to stay with his "safe"
wife. How many of us know men who have dumped their wives of
many years for some cute young thing (not that the countess is a
cute young thing)?
Jane
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (75 of 100), Read 60 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 22, 2000 02:37 PM
Jane: I agree Joe made the right choice, but not just because
Ruth was "safe"--though I'm sure that was part of it. He may have
been judgmental and set in his ways, but throughout the book I
see hints of an unusually rare kind of wisdom in Joe, as well. I
think he knew and accepted that the grass was, is, and will
always be greener on the other etc.
I have seen many otherwise seemingly good marriages go down
the tubes because one spouse or the other didn't realize, in the
flush of whatever moment, that no flesh-and-blood relationship
can ever live up to an untested fantasy. Joe seemed to know that
intuitively. Good for him.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (76 of 100), Read 55 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 22, 2000 10:19 PM
I think Joe chose to stay with Ruth because he knew it was the
"right" thing to do. He wouldn't have been able to live with himself
had he left her for Astrid. He was wise enough to know that.
Integrity is very important to Stegner's characters. I like that
about them.
Joe was indeed a spectator bird but he recognized at the end how
very lucky he was to find another bird to share his life with:
It is something-it can be everything-to have found a fellow bird
with whom you can sit among the rafters while drinking and
boasting and reciting and fighting go on below; a fellow bird whom
you can look after and find bugs and seeds for; one who will
patch your bruises and straighten you ruffled feathers and mourn
over your hurts when you accidentally fly into something you
can't handle."
Ann
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (77 of 100), Read 56 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 23, 2000 01:23 PM
Ann: That's a beautiful paragraph, isn't it? I think Joe and Ruth are
the most appealing characters I've met in many a year.
For anybody who (like myself) craved some more of Stegner's wit
and wisdom after SPECTATOR BIRD was over, I found a gem of a
book by him on Amazon, ON THE TEACHING OF CREATIVE
WRITING. It's basically an extended conversation, just 72 pages
(and only $10), and I finished it in one gulp. Very satisfying, and
gives some insight into his writing (and reading) life.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (78 of 100), Read 59 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 23, 2000 01:37 PM
Interesting observations, Teresa. I agree completely that Joe's
willingness to judge Astrid before knowing all of the facts was
pretty symbolic of the personality qualities that caused him
problems as a parent. Excellent point...I'm a little surprised that I
missed it!
Joe and Ruth's marriage was certainly a traditional one. There
were times when I felt myself recoiling a bit from her fussing over
him, but then remembered how reciprocal it was the morning that
the author was coming. It was one of those marriages that
wouldn't work for me but it certainly worked for them. However, I
don't think that Stegner was trying to imply that Ruth's care of
Joe was his reason for not leaving for Astrid. If anything, Astrid
was probably more of the same in that department. I think his
decision had more to do with Stegner's theme of integrity that
Dale mentioned. Personally, it took me a while to understand the
rewards of a long marital relationship but I do think that Stegner
wanted to celebrate that theme.
Dale, thanks for mentioning the tennis game. Wasn't that a terrific
scene? I loved watching the interaction of those two men. It
caught the nature of competition as well as anything I've read in a
long time.
Barb
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (79 of 100), Read 56 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 23, 2000 06:16 PM
I think Stegner is also celebrating the quiet respect Joe and Ruth
have for each other and the life they have made together. That
kind of marital appreciation and understanding is a rare bird.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (80 of 100), Read 47 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 23, 2000 06:59 PM
Kay: Amen, I say!
When we were in our wild-eyed, hormonal teens and 20s, the
notion of "quiet respect, appreciation, and understanding" being
qualities of an ideal relationship would have struck most of us as
ludicrous. But, I submit, from the very day we start to grasp our
true mortality (and thereby, humanity), those qualities steadily
become, to cop a line from Shakespeare, "a consummation
devoutly to be wished."
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (81 of 100), Read 30 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Teresa Hess (tbrowninghess@utah-inter.net)
Date:
Monday, July 24, 2000 07:23 PM
I didn't mean to imply in my post that Joe didn't make the right
choice in staying with Ruth. Au contraire, it was refreshing to see
a marital relationship treated with such respect and integrity. It's
sad that that sort of commitment is rarely examined in modern
literature, but it's also testament to Stegner's skill as a writer that
we as Constant Readers are drawn to these characters and their
relationship.
Another question...I have been married to my second husband for
20 years now, and I know that many of you have longtime
marriages. Does it seem strange to you that Ruth believed that
Joe and Astrid may have had an affair all that time and never
asked him directly about it? Perhaps I'm putting too personal a
spin on this, but my husband is also my best friend and confidant.
If there were a suspicion like that lurking in the back of my mind,
the idea would ultimately affect our relationship whether I
expressed it or not. I can't imagine not talking with him about it
out in the open. Could it be that this is a generational thing, too?
I know my parents don't discuss "personal stuff" the same way we
do. Any thoughts on this? Teresa, sweltering in Salt Lake City at
103 degrees
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (82 of 100), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, July 24, 2000 07:37 PM
I can't imagine not asking either, Teresa. I can only guess that
Ruth thought they probably had an affair, but didn't want it
confirmed.
On the other hand, many in their generation were pretty good at
keeping skeletons in the closet.
Ann
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (83 of 100), Read 27 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Monday, July 24, 2000 11:55 PM
MAP, I have given your last question some thought, too. I am sure
Stegner had someone in mind after whom he modeled Cesare, but
I really cannot think of who that might be.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (84 of 100), Read 29 times
Conf:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:17 AM
This Ruth would have asked. Even if she thought it would be
better if she shut up about it, she wouldn't be able to control
herself.
Ruth, who celebrated her 27th anniversary last Friday
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (85 of 100), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 06:02 AM
Perhaps Ruth trusted Joe's integrity and knew him well enough to
know he wouldn't betray her or their marriage. That allowed her to
carry on in the marriage.
And yet, she was intelligent, knew that such things do happen,
wanted a "Yea" or "Nay" answer, and faced Joe with it when the
opportunity arose.
Her question to Joe actually allowed them to deepen their already
rock solid foundation.
Ruth's niggling of doubt was assuaged and Joe was able to close
the door on his regret about the woman not taken.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (86 of 100), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 06:13 AM
I really think that it may have been a generational difference,
Teresa. Also, though, they both were recovering from the death
of their son at the time. Perhaps, Stegner thought that she
wouldn't want to rock the emotional boat any more at that point.
She sort of loved Astrid too. Maybe, that would make it easier for
a character like Ruth to save her questions.
Personally, I would have talked about it. Even if I'd tried to keep it
to myself, a few glasses of wine would have loosened my tongue
within a few months.
Barb
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (87 of 100), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 08:39 AM
Teresa's question about Ruth not asking about Astrid is very
interesting--but it does seem the tip of the iceberg here. For
example--all this time passes and Ruth never knew these journals
existed? They spend all that time in Denmark and Joe must of
been scribbling something fierce--but Ruth sleeps through it all?
Try to keep a journal from your spouse. Go ahead. Try to write
while they snore and never, ever have them suddenly wake up,
walk out to the area you are and question just what the heck are
you doing at 3 in the morning.
I mean--Ruth is one heavy sleeper, considering. And Joe is one
secretive man.
That's the one thing that really bothered me about this novel--the
sudden introduction of Joe's "journals" into Ruth's cognizance. I'm
not knocking this novel--not by a long shot--but I did find this
"plot device" a little too convenient.
Dan
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (88 of 100), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Teresa Hess (tbrowninghess@utah-inter.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 09:08 AM
Good point, Dan. Maybe this was part of what made some of the
Denmark sequences seem contrived to me. If one's husband is
scribbling furiously away in a journal all the time, would you be a
teensy weensy bit curious as to the content? And to be totally
unaware of their existence, she would have had to be not just a
heavy sleeper, but semi-comatose.
Barb, your comment about Ruth being sort of in love with Astrid,
too, is certainly thought-provoking, and makes a lot of sense to
me. Maybe she was providing them both with something they
needed at that point in time (still recovering from Curtis' death)
and Ruth had an innate understanding of Joe's attraction to her.
Teresa
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (89 of 100), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 08:57 AM
I have already said that I like Joe and Ruth, and obviously
everyone else here does, too. However, that may be a function in
part of having gotten so well acquainted with them that we
understand them.
Actually, I don't think it would be much of a pleasure being around
Joe. He is not aging gracefully. He is subject to depression. He is
isolating himself. He is a whiner and a grumbler increasingly closed
off from anything new. He is clearly dissatisfied and unhappy with
his life. He fell into his profession but did not love it. He fell into
everything else, too, and has done nothing but meet his resulting
"obligations." He has been a spectator in life, as the title implies
and as he himself says so often. No, I don't think Joe would be
pleasurable company at this stage.
All the rightness of his staying with Ruth aside, I think it was
entirely out of character for him to make a U-turn and drive
through that beautiful tunnel of trees a second time. It was
spontaneous and impulsive. I don't think he would have done it if
only Ruth had been with him. It was Astrid's company that inspired
him to do that, and it was Astrid who appreciated it the most.
It's entirely possible that he would have become a better man
with Astrid in contrast to the man is. Ruth is simply a caretaker.
She is unable to inspire him to undertake any of the things he has
missed, and she always has been that way. Ruth is another
obligation he fell into, and the "two old birds" quotation means
nothing more than that she has been an amiable if uninspiring
companion.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (90 of 100), Read 24 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 09:14 AM
A scene that troubles me. This from Ruth:
"I decided that even if I was only your obligation I'd rather be
your obligation than your ex-wife."
That's unsettling enough even without Joe's response, but what is
his response?
It seemed a good idea to kiss her. . . .
Even a kiss is an obligation for Joe, except for that one time
twenty years ago.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (91 of 100), Read 25 times
Conf:
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 09:22 AM
Well, there's no "maybe" about it, Teresa. Ruth:
"No. She was remarkable. I'm not. If you hadn't fallen at least a
little bit in love with her I'd have thought there was something
wrong with you." She laughed, a little breathy puff of sound.
"Then when I saw you were doing it, I couldn't stand it."
Of course, Ruth is absolutely right. Joe passed up a remarkable
woman to stay with an unremarkable one. Astrid was by no means
simply a young bimbo. This is exactly what Joe did in every other
aspect of his life, too. And he is not a happy man now.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (92 of 100), Read 17 times
Conf:
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From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 10:09 AM
Forgive my seams bursting. I couldn't take it any longer.
To say, "Good ole Joe didn't run off with the other woman; he
stuck it out; and everyone was the better for it" is to ignore the
real complexity of this novel. What exactly does "integrity" mean?
It is one of the most difficult words in the English language to get
a handle on, and I agree that the meaning of this word has
everything to do with the meaning of this novel.
Moreover, to say, "the grass is always greener on the other side"
in the sense that is usually offered is to ignore the simple fact
that many times the grass is greener over there, as many, many
here present have discovered in the marital context.
I wonder whether another of Aesop's fables isn't more apt when
considering this novel--the one about the fox and the sour
grapes.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (93 of 100), Read 14 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 10:39 AM
Steve: Many excellent points, I think, about the dark underside of
a relationship such as Ruth's and Joe's.
I think that spin in the car under the tunnel of trees was the
happiest moment of Joe's life, and in some senses it was all
downhill from there:
It is a fine thing to be admired by two attractive women on a
spring day, with the top down. I felt like boxing my ankles.
Shucks, girls, it was nothing. Velkommen, countess. Glad to do it.
I think that almost anybody, of a certain age and with a full
emotional life, has a "what if," road-not-taken scenario that would
make them bitter, or crazy, or both, if they dwelled on it. I know I
do. Joe is a dweller.
Of whatever emotional growth I've managed to eke out, in almost
a half century, I think the most valuable is that (at least most of
the time) I'm able to compartmentalize my "dwelling" into my
fiction, and thus stay relatively sane and pleasant.
Dan'l: I have to be a dissenter, here, on the journal business. Lots
of people, writers and non-writers alike, keep a journal. Jo Lynn
keeps a daily one, I keep a sporadic one. I would never think to
read hers, or vice versa. I'm not a principled person in some
contexts, but that one's an ironclad to me. Also, I think there's
the common sense to know that--even with the subject of
infidelity aside--any surprises would likely not be pleasant ones.
Make any sense?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (94 of 100), Read 11 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 11:38 AM
Really interesting points here, Steve. What makes it even more
fascinating to me is that I truly think Stegner was celebrating long
marriages. I don't mean that I think that The Spectator Bird was
autobiographical. However, my little bit of reading of Stegner's
essays makes me think that he was fairly conservative in his
beliefs, wasn't favorably disposed toward some aspects of the
60's, opposed progress where it disturbed the land and valued
integrity enormously.
However, he also seems to have been a student of life and I
absolutely agree with you that Joe would have been a pain in the
ass to live with and that Ruth did far too much ineffectual
fluttering around him. Stegner certainly does seem to be playing
with the "What if?" idea of how different stimulation would have
effected Joe, then returns him to the status quo...but was it the
status quo then?
Can you tell that I'm thinking out loud here? There's basically this
question of what is added and what is taken away from a life by
committing to one relationship. In my youth, I felt very disdainful
of couples who stayed together just to be staying together. They
still bother me if they just grow into a blob or lead two separate
lives united only by their marriage license. However, I must say
that I like the results of sticking with a relationship that
challenges me for 23 years.
And, that leads me meandering on to the next point...did Stegner
think that this long marriage was worth celebrating only for its
longevity? Did he think they actually were challenging each other
a bit? Or was it good enough for him that they took care of each
other, provided a safe haven? Or, am I wrong in my initial
supposition, was he actually celebrating it at all?
Barb
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (95 of 100), Read 9 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:10 PM
I have kept a daybook/journal/sketchbook for almost 30 years.
Leif has never picked it up. The kids were never interested enough
to poke. Who cares what the old fogeys of the house scribble.
But what bothers me about journals in novels, is not their
existence, but their perfection. It bothered me in SB, and also it's
bothering me in The Manticore, which I'm now reading. I mean, my
journal is a mess. Crossings out, awkward sentences where I start
one thought and get waylaid into another. Repetitions. Sentences
left hanging when the teakettle boiled. I think if we can swallow
the perfection of the journal, swallowing that Ruth didn't know it
existed is a mere tidbit.
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (96 of 100), Read 9 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:14 PM
Having had a 16 year marriage where we (I love that phrase Barb)
ended up united only by the marriage license, and a 27 year
marriage which is still going strong. I'd say there's a lot of merit in
the idea of longevity as a positive thing in and of itself. You grow
into each other. You complement each other. The togetherness
feeds upon itself and increases the joy of togetherness. Joe would
be giving this up if he went with Astrid. And maybe at this point in
his life, altho he may regret having been a spectator bird, he
realizes it may be too late for him to change, and maybe, under all
his posturing, he really doesn't want to change.
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (97 of 100), Read 7 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:16 PM
Dale: Right--but you know the existence of such journals and your
spouse knows you keep some. You don't have to read them--you
just know they are being kept. My point is that Ruth has no idea
at all that Joe kept a journal of his time in Denmark. She's able to
keenly discern his interest in Astrid, but she does not even notice
he's spending entire nights (and let's face it--some of that "journal
writing" would take quite a while to get it so smooth and natural
and literate)scribbling furiously.
So years later, she "discovers" Joe kept a journal of the whole
Denmark ordeal. She is pleasantly surprised, but geeze...
If Ruth sleeps that hard, then Joe and Astrid could have shared
the bed with her without Ruth ever knowing.
I think Ruth has a sleep-disorder.
Dan
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (98 of 100), Read 10 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:24 PM
It took a minute, but now I'm pondering Steve's take on this
novel.
Joe as a tragic figure--a tale told well after the action and meant
to illustrate the dangers of passivity when it comes to passion.
Look, Dear Reader, look what has become of Joe.
I'm looking--and it don't seem so bad or pathetic. Joe does not
bear Ruth any latent hostility, seems to rather enjoy the way his
life turned out as well as the company he is with. What bothers
him the most is that there is no one after him. He's the last of the
family line, because of Curtis's death. Here is my life, these are my
journals, but death is imminent.
Joe is just going through the stages of a dying man. He looks back
on his career, he looks back on the "roads not taken," he looks at
where and who he is now. I think this is what Stegnor was really
aiming for and not some sort of tragic or pathetic portrayal of a
man too stupid to carpe diem and who must bear the pain of the
difference it could have made.
Dan
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (99 of 100), Read 14 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:16 PM
Barb: Your questions remind me of Faulkner's great Nobel speech,
that the human spirit "not only will endure, but will prevail."
I think that's what Joe and Ruth have done, but I believe Stegner
leaves it up to us to decide whether the trade-off is worth
it...every form of refuge, after all, having its price.
I'm saddened by the few older couples I know who are united only
in their bitterness. On the other hand, with every passing day the
safe haven approach looks better and better to me. I think one of
the main impacts of THE SPECTATOR BIRD, aside from its beauty
as a story, is to make us look in our own mirror regarding that
question.
But then, I'm thinking out loud too. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (100 of 100), Read 14 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 12:20 PM
Dan: Ah! Excellent point. I'd forgotten that particular detail. I
want to get a prescription for Ruth's sleep medication. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (101 of 115), Read 62 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 04:28 PM
Barb: Yes, the tennis game! My closest equivalent of Joe's and
Eilig's match was many years ago when I played racquetball.
I had to interview the new Alabama racquetball champ (a teaching
pro, and at least 10 years younger than me) for a newspaper
article, and after our talk he asked if I wanted to play a short
game. I figured it would be good experience for the article (I told
myself) and agreed.
He beat me 15 to 1, and I was more proud of my one point than
anything I'd done in a long time. Afterward, he asked if I'd like a
critique of my game. I said sure, and that I wanted him to be
totally honest.
"You're hell off the front wall," he said. "Your front court game is
excellent. Your back court game leaves a lot to be desired. And
your knowledge of strategy is virtually nonexistent."
Brilliant kid. Not only did he peg my racquetball game, but the
whole story of my life. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (102 of 115), Read 55 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 05:28 PM
Steve,
Good point about Joe being a difficult person to live with. Chronic
depressives usually are, and he definitely had those tendencies.
However, do you really think he would have been happier with
Astrid, considering all all the baggage she carried?
Here is a woman whose father's hobby was tracking the results of
his incestuous relationships in a stud book. Her brother was just
as bad or worse, producing children with his half-sister and then
having sex with one of their daughters. By almost any standards,
this was a very sick family. Astrid could not have emerged
unscathed.
Then there is the little matter of her being married to a quisling
and the fact that she was completely ostracized by her fellow
townspeople.
No, Astrid might have been beautiful and pure as the driven snow,
but she undoubtedly had many "issues" (as my kids like to say),
which would complicate any relationship.
But, for the sake of argument, let's say Astrid did offer Joe an
opportunity for greater happiness. Would that justify ditching
Ruth, who seems to have been an exemplary spouse?
Ann, who loves it when you drop these bombs
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (103 of 115), Read 59 times
Conf:
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From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 06:48 PM
Which of the following is correct ?
a) Joe and Ruth have an active companionship
or
b) Joe and Ruth have a not-so-comfortable relationship based on
their shared past.
pres, fictional marriage counselor
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (104 of 115), Read 54 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 07:51 PM
Joe and Ruth have a sometimes companionship, with
not-so-comfortable moments, based on their shared past.
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (105 of 115), Read 61 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 08:08 PM
Pres: Woh! Cutting to the chase, here, are you?
Not trying to waffle (well, somewhat), but it seems to me that
your A and B are points on a continuum between which Joe and
Ruth live their lives, which could be (a) a lot worse, (b) a lot
better.
I would like to think (a giveaway phrase, that) that on good days
Joe and Ruth achieve A, and at their worst B. The rest is in
between, I think, with blessed "epiphanies" at various points,
which are, when they are given, very instructive. (Not only in this
novel, but in real life.)
Could they both have done better? Well, maybe. But that's the
whole question of why we're here, isn't it? I salute them, and I
salute the continuum.
And most of all, I thank all these people on CR who have
contributed to possibly the most complex and invigorating
exchange I've participated in since the Book of Job--which, as I
recall, lasted maybe half a year and took no prisoners. {g}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (106 of 115), Read 56 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 07:59 PM
I fall on the "Joe and Ruth have an active companionship " side.
Whether we approve or disapprove of them as individuals or as a
couple, the fact is, THEY are very contented with their marriage.
Whatever the relationship is, it has worked for them, and neither
would want it any different.
Joe is a tad cranky, but he handles his perspective with humor. He
has a good self understanding. Prime examples: When Joe is
talking with the dr., he says, "I have never needed many people
around. I always had more than I wanted. A few friends are
enough. There are lots of perfectly pleasant people whom I like,
but if I don't see them I don't miss them....When the work ended,
most of the people ended, all but the handful that meant
something. Maybe that's alarming, but that's the way I am."
He's working hard "to quit being a sissy about growing old," and
jokingly refers to the "symptoms of retirementitis."
I also think his depth is reflected in his empathy for Edith and Tom
Patterson.
He also is "...tempted to pass on to breathless posterity ...that
anything is possible at any time."
These are not the musings of a lifeless, confused man. I
understand why Ruth loves him so much, and why he loves her.
He may be a spectator of most of the world, but the parts of it he
engages with make for a rich inner life.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (107 of 115), Read 56 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 08:36 PM
Dan,
I don't agree about the journals. I have been married 30 years,
and my husband and I have such different schedules that he could
be writing entire novels when he gets up at 2:45 in the morning,
and I wouldn't know the difference. I know that Joe started the
journal when Ruth was flat on her back on the ship. He also talked
about writing when she was out with Astrid or when she was
asleep. If a person has those habits, the other spouse thinks
nothing of it.
Steve,
I don't agree with you about Astrid. Ann said what I want to say,
about Astrid probably not being such a prize. I think that if Joe
had gotten to know her very well, he wouldn't have wanted to
deal with all of her "issues" as Ann said.
I don't know that Joe was that depressed. Kay made a good point
about his sense of humor. He said some pretty funny things that
upset Ruth. I think that is just his way of facing life. As I said, he
reminds me a lot of my own husband. Joe has a very dark sense of
humor.
Jane
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (108 of 115), Read 57 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 25, 2000 10:21 PM
I liked what you said about the continuum in Joe and Ruth's
relationship, Dale.
What I especially appreciate about Stegner's perspective on
marriage is that he doesn't go for the good guy/bad guy scenario
when he describes the partners. Neither spouse is perfect, but
each tries to do the best he or she can within the limitations
imposed by his or her personality. In ANGLE OF REPOSE, my
personal favorite, the result may be tragedy, but the author
leaves me with a sense of understanding, as opposed to blame.
In SPECTATOR BIRD, a book with a happier ending, Joe also has
his failings. As Kay pointed out, these are mitigated by the fact
that he has considerable insight into them. But Ruth isn't perfect
either. At times she is such a nag I just want to shake her and tell
her to give it a rest.
And yet both husband and wife do the best they can. In their
case, the best is pretty darn good.
Ann
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (109 of 115), Read 46 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 05:42 AM
I was just trying to express this ambivalence I have developed
after pondering this book and even going back and rereading
passages. I haven't really completely come off my initial reaction,
which was that Joe and Ruth are good people and I envy their
long term marriage. I do think this is a celebration of a long term
marriage, but it is a reserved celebration--or a realistic one.
But let me list some things that trouble me about them.
1. Joe has a great deal of trouble simply being happy and always
has.
The symptoms of failing vigor, the oncoming of age, have put me
right back to where I was in 1954--which--come to think of it,
was about where I was in 1924. Young, middle aged, or getting
old, Joe Allston has always been full of himself, uncertain,
dismayed, dissatisfied with his life, his country, his civilization, his
profession, and himself.
2. Ruth did not wish to hear the journal read to share
reminiscences. She had only one objective.
She caught me by surprise. Normally she isn't much interested in
all these papers she keeps me working at. So long as I disappear
after breakfast, she can feel that she has done her duty and
propped me up so that I can hold my own against deterioration.
Bur of course she would be interested in any diary I kept in
Denmark, and of course, for related reasons, I was not eager to
read it to her, at least not until I had gone through it myself.
* * *
"Of course, I see, you wouldn't have put that down."
"Put what down?"
"What we were finally going to talk out."
3. Conversely, Joe is clearly not interested in anything that
interests Ruth.
4. One must get a little tired of Joe's "crumbling cookie." When we
laboriously went through the Britannica article on rheumatoid
arthritis, I started to get fatigued with that aspect of his
personality. Of course getting old is not for sissies, but. . .but. .
.this is not a healthy approach to it.
I really am not advocating that Joe should have dumped Ruth and
ran off with Astrid, Jane. I just wish he had met and married Astrid
first because they seem better equipped to deal constructively
with each others' issues instead of perpetuating them. Our last
view of Astrid bending over as if vomiting strikes me as the
reaction of a person who has met the one (the one we all look
for) and is dealing with the fact they will never be together. Joe's
reaction to the memory of her indicates to me that he had met
the one, too. However, timing is everything in this life.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (110 of 115), Read 48 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 06:14 AM
But Steve, when Joe was reading that article about arthritis, he
was making an attempt to meet life head on, armed with whatever
knowledge he could find. It was a "just the facts, ma'am" kind of
approach.
As far as Astrid goes, is it possible that though she was the one
she wasn't the right one for him? A marriage is more than passion
and fervent desire to be with each other. For me, the real gems of
a relationship are found in the quiet solidity that comes from
knowing you are loved and cared deeply for, and that you feel the
same for your spouse.
I think I would enjoy being one of Joe's few true friends.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (111 of 115), Read 36 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 08:52 AM
Kay,
Maybe. Anything's possible.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (112 of 115), Read 33 times
Conf:
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From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 08:58 AM
I was of the impression it was Astrid who refused to go with
Joe...not the other way around.
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (113 of 115), Read 27 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 09:08 AM
Okay, I am going to be the catalyst here...I see Joe as a very
nice man who is so totally afraid of any sort of passion that he is
willing to die having a life of obligations on which to reflect. he is a
creature of comfort and says, himself, his life with Ruth has no
(emotional) mountains, but only knolls. it is easier for him to
remain a "spectator bird" than to scale those mountains. I admire
his fortitude in this marriage, but is obligation enough to make it all
worth it? I dont know...
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (114 of 115), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 09:49 AM
That's kinda what I was saying, Beej. If that's what you have
opted for, then quit bitching about it.
Still, back to what Kay was saying, I am not so sure it's so great
to find the one. Certainly, it ain't good if the timing is bad, as it
was here.
All in all, I think Joe is sincere in his statement that he would have
regretted the loss of Ruth every day of his life but only thinks of
Astrid now and again. Maybe. Then again maybe he was just
saying what was called for in the circumstances. That's what I
would have done.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (115 of 115), Read 11 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 12:13 PM
(I was bitching? I was? Whoops, certainly didn't mean to bitch
LOL)
After reading the journals, Joe says:
"The performance I had just put on left me alarmed about my own
unacknowledged possibilities. If the truth were told, and I suppose
it had better be, I wanted to be alone for awhile with that
possibility I had renounced, or had been made to renounce,
twenty years before and carried around with me like a cyst ever
since."
A cyst? Hardly something you only think of every now and then.
Sounds to me like Astrid got in a little deeper than that. .
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (116 of 150), Read 69 times
Conf:
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 02:01 PM
Beej: Ahem. I think Steve was referring to Joe's bitching about
his lot in life. I haven't noticed any CR bitching on this thread at
all... {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (117 of 150), Read 73 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 02:06 PM
(Oh! I guess I hear the word "bitch" and automatically think its
referring to me!LOLOL)
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (118 of 150), Read 67 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 04:38 PM
Beej, you actually think I would refer to you as a bitch or accuse
you of bitching? This hurt me, Beej, that you would even for a
second think such a thing! My eyes have wet up as a matter of
fact.
Let me add a disclaimer to my previous remarks that may go a
long way toward explaining why my impressions of the novel
differed a bit. I am a complete cipher when it comes to the
subject of marriage. I don't know what makes a good one or a bad
one. I have no idea how couples manage it even half way
successfully for a few months let alone for like decades! The
whole idea of the thing bewilders me. I know nothing reliable
about the subject.
Let me get this straight. The idea is that one takes a solemn vow
forever to cherish the other one no matter how much of an ass
the other one turns out to be? Moreover, this solemn vow also
includes a promise that each will only have sex with the other one
and nobody else until one of them dies???? Is that the gist of the
basics of it?
Take all of my remarks on Joe and Ruth's marriage with that grain
of salt.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (119 of 150), Read 64 times
Conf:
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 05:23 PM
Steve & All: Thinking out loud again, here...
One reason I look upon Joe's and Ruth's very imperfect union less
negatively than I would otherwise is the fact that they both bring
many crucial pieces to this massive puzzle of staying together for
so long a time. In other words, in a variety of social situations,
they both have invaluable skills and can give one another tit for
tat.
Unlike several elderly couples I know, in which one partner is SO
outspoken, garrulous, verbal, controlling, etc., that his/her mate
becomes in effect a mere shadow in social situations, expected
only to smile/frown/shrug at the proper moment, if that much.
I have never heard that phenomenon so well put as by a
comedian who called it the "Ventriloquist Syndrome." To roughly
paraphrase:
On the rare occasions when somebody asks him a question, she
jumps in to answer before he has a chance. And at that point,
I'm thinking, Why doesn't she just practice putting her arm up his
a** and working him like a ventroliquist, so at least his mouth is
moving during the answer?
A somewhat extreme example, I know, but it sure had relevance
for me.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (120 of 150), Read 65 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 07:09 PM
All,
this last bunch of entries really has me thinking. I am completely
blown away by your posts Steve. I did not not like the 'care-giver
aspects of Ruth. I thought they were controlling. But I also was
thinking of the posts from many here who appreciated the care
and conversations ruth and Joe shared. I was not enamoured by
Astrid, I found her kinda scary but then when you find out about
her past she comes out a little more accessible. I have aterrible
feeling you might be onto something here about these people. I
wish I had my copy with me because I remember there was a clue
to the tone the novle was going to take and I forgot to clip it out.
I'll look next week when I can get to a library and I'm off the road.
I am really getting the feeling that this novel is a subtle criticsm
of this kind of passivity in many marriages and worse in many
lives. I was fairly disturbed by his attitude to his son and this
aspect distracted me from taking much interest in the marriage
angle on the story. In fact 'the marriage' ezaminations I didnto
find that interesting(perhaps because I'm single partly because I
believe one should get hooked up with THE ONE not anyone else).
The act of Astrids buckling over was one of the most realistic
moments I thought. And I forgotten about him referring to the
cyst. I am definately going to have to read this again and I think
Stegner might have been making a stand against the kind of
relationship and definition of marriage as a 'safe place' that many
of us are raised and conditioned to think is 'enough'. You've really
freaked me out with these ideas and insights. I am totally
re-thinking this book.
I don't think he had to go with Astrid per say but I did think at
times maybe his life needed some kind of change. I still like it that
he was involved with nature, but if I can move beyond how much
I felt bummed by his bad attitude with his kid I shall be able to
think a bit differently about Stegners opinion of this marriage.
Very insightful posts Steve.
Candy
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (121 of 150), Read 71 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 09:40 PM
Candy, please let me help you with your understanding of Joe and
Curtis..in the book ALL THE LITTLE LIVE THINGS, it explains that
Curtis was approaching middle age when he died. He was not a
"kid". He truly was a bum. He had total disregard for anything
good in his life, and the only thing he was truly proficient at, was
not ever , ever finishing one constructive thing he started. He
was every bit the "mess" Joe implies. No exaggerations there.
Everything his parents attempted to do to help this man, were
scraped off the bottom of his emotional "shoe" and left on the
sidewalk without a backward glance.
As for marriage...you say you have never been married, well I
have(actually a couple times lol) and please let me assure you,
that even in a marriage that has grown lackluster at times, it is a
Godsend to go into the arms of somebody who loves you, no
matter what, when the rest of the world takes a big nasty crap
on you.
Beej
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (122 of 150), Read 70 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 26, 2000 09:51 PM
Having parented two children and survived the teen age years, I
can identify a little with Joe's dilemma. Most kids go through a
rebellious stage where they question everything you say, do, and
stand for. It's how they grow up and learn where they stand.
They have to pull away before they can understand what kind of
people they are.
That is not an easy time for any parent, at least it wasn't for me.
Part of the time I was hurt. Part of the time I was worried. Part of
the time I was flat out angry. But I always, always, always, loved
them. I'm guessing Joe experienced many of the same emotions.
But he and his son never got the chance to work things through.
Plus, Joe is nagged with the question of whether his child hated
him and the world Joe lived in so much that his son may have
executed the ultimate revenge, and killed himself.
I am sure Joe didn't handle his son's rebellion well. But how many
of us do? I think Joe did the best he knew how.
, who wants to cut Joe a little slack.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (123 of 150), Read 37 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 06:48 AM
Kay, if I know nothing about marriage, I know less than nothing
about parenting. In fact whenever I hear the word "parenting," I
get this vague, queasy feeling of being disoriented in time and
space. You'll get no argument from me. I am willing to cut
anybody slack in this area.
Candy, isn't the psycho-babble word for Ruth "enabling?" (Gosh, I
found a way to use the word "parenting" and the word "enabling"
in one post!)
Still and again, I am not really disagreeing with others' assessment
of this marriage. I am just saying that this novel is much more
complex than it first appears. While I am in my idiot savant mode,
let me iterate Warbassian lame literary theory No. 13. Stegner's
intentions have nothing to do with this. If he were still around,
God rest his soul, he would be the last person to have any idea
what we're talking about.
Great writers have this talent for tapping into their own
subconscious and then stringing words together beautifully
describing what bubbles up. However, they are nearly invariably
totally ignorant of the meaning of what they have written. This is
one reason they are so boring and disappointing when one sees
them speak in person. This is not Stegner's novel anymore. He
gave it to us, and therefore, it's ours to make of it what we will.
In the meantime please be careful on the road, Candy. It's a
jungle out there. Return safely and tell me more about how
insightful I am.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (124 of 150), Read 38 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@mindspring.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 08:17 AM
Steve-
I just think we have different takes on Joe's personality and his
marriage.
When you describe Ruth as an "enabler," do you mean she allowed
Joe to mope, whine, and be generally unhappy? I do see those
traits in him. It's just that I also see a healthy humor from Joe
that provides a balance. I see a lot of give and take in their
marriage, and a genuine love and affection for each other.
Isn't it interesting how each reader can project his/her own
perspectives onto the characters in this novel? You're so right
about how a novel becomes the reader's.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (125 of 150), Read 37 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 08:26 AM
Steve,
I think your Warbassian Theory #13 hits the nail on the head. I
found TSB a moving, realistic portrait of a long marriage. But
that's my take on it, and one that validates my own personal
experience of a long marriage. There will always be "what ifs" in
any long-term engagement, whether it's a job, living in the same
house, a marriage. That you could find a different kind of truth in
TSB demonstrates the greatness of Stegner's writing.
Sherry
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (126 of 150), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 06:48 AM
Just pulling the thread over to the left.
Seeing how Joe and Ruth interact has helped me understand how
my parents could stay together for 53 years despite what seems
to my peaceable mind to be constant squabbling.
David
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (127 of 150), Read 25 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 08:24 AM
That's exactly what I meant,Kay, but that's not entirely fair
either. She did try to get him to go discuss books with the folks
at the care center.
Isn't that the truth, David! Mine have been married for some 55
years, and my puzzled view of it is much the same as your.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (128 of 150), Read 26 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 08:44 AM
Steve's theory #13 (interesting number) is what truly knocks me
out about this whole discussion. I am positive that Stegner, the
man, had infinite respect for long, enduring marriages. It
fascinates me that this story has such a life of its own, apart
from anything Stegner might have intended.
Beej, I really appreciate your note about All the Little Live Things,
Stegner's earlier book about Joe and Ruth. I need to somehow
squeeze that one in this summer. The information about the son
makes things clearer in that department. I think one of the most
difficult factors in a parent/child relationship occurs when one of
them dies before they at least address those kinds of "issues"
(sorry, couldn't think of another word). Everyone sort of trails
along in an unfinished state.
Barb
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (129 of 150), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 10:01 AM
Hmm, all kinds of challenging things are here today with this book.
I agree that the intent and the model that an author gives in a
book becomes its own identity, for sure Steve and you make a
good point. Thanks Beej, for pointing out some other aspects of
the family life from previous stories, believe me I will look up more
Stegner in the next few weeks. I will even look up a person to fall
into arms with ha ha on your vivid description of how it helps
when the world craps on you, maybe I better get hooked up huh?
Sounds like a good deal.
I could be projecting my ideals on these characters for sure, I try
not to but you know we just do. I like to look at the book and
books in general without trying to forcefeed my ideals of life onto
it and see what is there to be learned.
I am a parent and maybe thats what bothered me about Joes
attitudes and disappointments. I havent read the 'history'
provided by Stegner in his other stories about Curtis. But this still
offers a way to think about children and life and how we choose
to live it. From The Spectator Bird, I would say that I actually
LIKED the sound of Curtiss life. I am guessing that he must have
bee a real mess from other stories and did some unforgivable
things was it drugs? was it cruelty to others I am imagining from
Beejs post)In Spectator Bird, Curtis sounds very interesting,
athletic, nature loving, socialble and a person who liked the simple
pleasures in life. Not carreer ambitious like his parents. He sounds
like the kind of person who was 'counter culture. Who was
displaced from mainstream culture, a flanuer a hippie/punkmaybe
even a failed artsy type. We all know those kinds of people where
the status quo just never felt right to them. And I think what we
see in Spectator Bird is that kind of 'generation gap' that existed
in those years in North America. I have known a lot of people like
the Cirtis character and they always felt like their parents hated
them, and it was interesting to read a book that came from the
parents side of things rather than the famous novels like On The
Road or KenKesey books of that era that reflected life from a
Curtis type of character.
I don't know during those parent parts of Spectator Bird I kept
thinking 'wow the paranoia of the counter culture was real, their
parents DID hate them!'. The Curtis generation had a really hard
time finding their place in a world they were never ever happy
with and no guidance from their elders or values they could
believe in as they didnt believe in the idea of money makes the
world go around, or consummerism or a slave to the
establishment. On a personal and even funny note my dad retired
a couple years ago and we have had some laughs because he
now lives like I do. I have always lived a hard working sure but
still an artists life. I wasn't as exciting as a hippie but I definately
live like an artist and enjoy a different way of living than my
parents have. Now he has more time and tries to be a little
creative and spends his day oddly like I do. I think he may have
come to understand some of the decisions I made of how to live
when I was young and he wanted me to be ambitious in a way he
could understand rather than ambitious in the way I worked as an
artist. A professional decision my parents could not grasp when I
was 22 or 23. Art school!!! How are you going to pay the rent ha
ah!
I have tried to cut Joe some slack, and I did think he was funny
and charming at times.
I just think if we expect our kids to be grown ups by the time
they are 21 then shouldn't we be grown ups and come to terms
with how they live by the time they are 21 too?! If Curtis was
middle aged when he died Joe sure held a grudge for 15 years
after he turned 21 then!!!! At least according to the info we get
in Spectator Bird.
Some one made a good point about the 'road not taken' earlier
sorry I can't remember who that was, and I agree that is a real
part of life and it doesn't mean we have to beat ourselves up over
that exercise. It's a good exercise and helps us understand where
we are today. I really don't think Joe would have been 'happier' if
he had hooked up with Astrid. I think the point really is how happy
and full filled was he by HOW HE CHOSE TO live, his values in
general. His definition of love and marriage in general. I think we
are to question that and I think the writer intended us to question
that, by the mere fact he called the bookwhat he did. In many
ways that is a negative assessment of the character and defines
the writers intent. Even if we agree that the writers intent and
success is left up to the evaluation of the readers. The term
Spectator is an anti-life term. It is not involved it is restrained
from passion and action. Action is what defines us. We have to
take into account the idea that the writer has already labeled him
before we start the story.
I don't know, I am thinking out loud. TOL.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (130 of 150), Read 32 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 10:21 AM
Hey,
someone mentioned the story Damage on another thread and I
just thought hey, Steve this in some ways would be a good
comparrison
for TSB and some of your posts. It's like the story Damage is the
worst case scenario for what can happen if one follows ones
heart or the path not taken. In fact Damage is all the reasons to
stay in a safe place!!!ha ha it's almost like a horror story.
There is a dead son, there is another woman there is a struggle to
understand passion.
Just another thought.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (131 of 150), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 10:49 AM
Candy: Interesting contrast, THE SPECTATOR BIRD and DAMAGE.
I'd also throw into the mix FATAL ATTRACTION, one of my all-time
favorite movies. I have a friend who says his wife makes their
videotape of it required viewing before he or she goes out of town
on business. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (132 of 150), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 10:54 AM
I haven't had a chance to read this one, but have been following
the thread anyway. I think "spectator bird" would be a good
description of most writers, wouldn't it?
Theresa
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (133 of 150), Read 26 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 11:20 AM
Theresa, the title character is a writer's agent, not a writer. I
think if Joe had been a writer, he would have considered his life
more of a success. As it is, he fell into his profession and he was
not particularly pleased about it.
Candy, I haven't read the other book explaining the Curtis/Joe
relationship, but from what Beej said, Curtis didn't seem like a free
spirit who was particularly happy with his life. Beej, was he
self-supporting? That makes a big difference.
Sherry
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (134 of 150), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 11:38 AM
And another "take" on the book:
This is a powerful moral story. Joe is a tragic figure, both
commanding our pity and warning us.
Everything we learn, we learn through Joe’s eyes and mind.
Events happen and Joe observes them, but always as things
noted, at one remove, at a distance. He sees life, but he doesn’t
live it, except for possibly a few moments driving down an avenue
of trees. He is as if contained in a block of plastic, in the world
but forbidden it. The other characters, including his son, are
figures that perform on the screen of how things are, they are not
really tied to him by their reality.
I am unwilling to believe that this is Stegner autobiographical; I
think rather that Stegner has created a classical tragedy, the
story of a flaw that is allowed to devour its host. In this context I
think the book is a knockout.
And believe you me, I hope to God I am not reading my own ideas
into the story.
pres
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (135 of 150), Read 37 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 11:45 AM
What a delightful addition to this group you are, Candy! I must
admit that my mouth dropped open while I read these last two of
yours, and I ended up a little. . .ah. . .well, out of breath. Such a
different voice. A truly youthful one. Please don't think I
condescend. I do not. Very refreshing actually. What an
adventure being your father must be! I hope he appreciates it. As
for me, I will just see if I can score a little speed and try to keep
up.
"Flaneur." Absolutely great word and one I had quite forgotten.
Of course Joe was not content and happy with how he HAD
CHOSEN TO LIVE his life, was he? That's the point of the whole
thing, isn't it? That is precisely the reason I started to circle back
around for another look after all my early lauding of the marriage.
I presume you speak of Damage by Josephine Hart. Yes, that
would be a good exercise in contrast, wouldn't it? Have you read
it? Does not the son commit suicide in that one, too? I think I'm
right there. If I am, it just goes to show you can't win in the
parenting game regardless of which path you take. Or did the son
accidentally fall down a stairwell? You know, we have a truly
great one on a father/daughter relationship coming up on the list
in the form of Disgrace by Coetzee. Don't miss that one.
Yes, there was a very real generation gap way back then, but
you're not going to suck me into pontificating about it. Nothing
gets more boring more quickly than some old goof running off at
the mouth about the sixties. Joe's expression of his disgust with
that granny dress captured it all pretty succinctly anyway. Talk
about an old goof!
What else is here in this grab bag? Oh, yes. Kerouac and Ken
Kesey. You've read these guys? In addition to Terry Southern?
I do hope this place is entertaining enough for you to stick around
for awhile. Would you consider découpaging other peoples' shoe
boxes? On a commission basis, of course. Not asking for freebies
here. Maybe we could make your advent a modestly paying
proposition for you. I know several people here whose shoe boxes
could use a little découpage.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (136 of 150), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 11:50 AM
Theresa: Despite Joe not being a writer, I think your premise is a
very apt one. Sure true for me, anyway. It's not that I don't live
life (at least I hope it's not), but there's always a large part of me
that is merely spectating, rather than entering into the spirit of
the thing viscerally. Truly a mixed blessing, and I've talked with
many writers over the years who are hard-wired the same way.
Likewise, it's very rare that I can enter 100% into the spirit of a
book and its characters, for much the same reason. One side of
me is assessing the structure, scoping out the competition,
wondering why he/she made some choices and not others, etc.
Just a hazard of the profession, I guess.
Pres: I love this line from your post...
The other characters, including his son, are figures that perform
on the screen of how things are, they are not really tied to him
by their reality.
I think you nailed this one squarely on the head, partner.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (137 of 150), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 12:35 PM
Steve's Literary Theory 13 is interesting, to say the least: The
author creates a work but has no control over the "meaning" of
the work. This is classic Stanley Fish, Is There a Text in this
Class? sort of thing.
But as beguiling as Fish's reader response is, I've always felt
Wolfgang Iser was closer to the actual truth--an author tries to
articulate his thoughts, his actions, his ideas using the tools and
method of grammar, context, and symbols. He erects roadsigns
throughout the work for the reader to notice the landscape and
stay on course. When a work becomes ambiguous--as is the case
here with Stegnor's illustration of marital longevity or marital hell
(take a side please, the fence can't hold everyone)--then Iser
would say that the ambiguity stems from two possibilities:
(1) The author failed to construct a decent roadmap
(2) The reader isn't paying enough attention to the roadmap and
is taking detours that the author never intended.
But I'll posit a third possibility: Stegner articulates a realistic
portrayal of a lengthy marriage and the immensity of the topic
takes each reader through a terrain in such a way that each
reader notices what THEY want to notice.
For example: after I had Zack, I was amazed at how many infants
and toddlers are out in public places. They didn't seem to be
there before I was a father.
The same is true with this novel: If you've had poor marriages of
real inconvenience, you're look at Stegnor's work and cry that
here is the articulation of the problems with marriage. On the
other hand, if you believe in the lengthy marriage, you'll see
confirmation of your belief in Joe and Ruth's relationship.
I think Stegnor knew which aspect of marriage he was writing
about--it is not something that escaped from his subconscious.
It's when his so-very realistic achievement is placed before us, his
readers, that our unconscious is settled or unsettled, as the case
may be.
Dan
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (138 of 150), Read 35 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 01:41 PM
Dan: Looks like I have to be the loyal opposition here and weigh in
on the side of Steve's Proposition #13. I can't claim to speak for
Stegner, of course, only for myself and, to a lesser degree, the
very few writers I am close to who occasionally confide in me and
one another about their process.
One of the chief miracles of fiction, to me, is that when it's
exceptionally good, it's not chemistry but alchemy. Which is to
say that it isn't the writer's thoughts, views, or focus that are
on display but rather those of his or her characters.
By this I certainly don't mean that writing fiction is some
equivalent of New Age channeling, but that reactions occasionally
come into the mix that surprise me, confuse me, even make me
apprehensive, because they're certainly not mine. If those parts
seem real and credible to me, I leave them in. If not, I leave them
out. But the ending of any piece of fiction is a far, far cry from
the place I was headed toward, starting out. (Maybe this is not
quite as rigidly the case for writing a short story, but I'd have to
give that some more thought.)
The most exhilarating thing to me about doing fiction readings
(other than getting to hog the microphone{G}) is that any
question-and-answer session that follows is almost invariably a
big education for me.
Somebody might ask if I intended to draw Inference A from
such-and-such a scene or dialogue, and I (foolishly) answer yes.
At which point another reader comments, "Yes, but, in Chapter 4
it appears exactly the opposite." Honest to God, I hadn't noticed
the contradiction. A novel is such a slow and many-tentacled
thing that all I can do is try to make sure the action is "of a
piece," but what that piece may "mean" to different people is way
beyond my ken and ability.
All of which is not to say that I consciously work to create
ambiguity, though maybe some writers can. As for me, it's just
that I can't not do it.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (139 of 150), Read 36 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 02:23 PM
Dan, you are citing Wolfgang Iser in rebuttal of Warbassian lame
literary theory No. 13? The man who has single-handedly shifted
the focus of literary theorists from the author to the reader and
the reader's response? The man who came up with the reception
theory? Really? This guy is the primary published authority in
support of No. 13. In fact, the rascal stole it from me because I
was so slow in getting it down on paper myself!
There must be some misunderstanding here. At the risk of being a
pain in the ass, let me try it this way. To the extent that we
believe that there is some objective meaning to a novel out there
outside of us, we then tend to believe that the author is in
possession of that meaning. So then we read biographies of the
author, we might attend a lecture by the author, or we might
read an author's interview about the meaning of his own work or
watch him on "Book Talk," all a completely simplistic waste of
time. It is precisely the error of many "literary" scholars in
academia who write dissertations on what Eliot "meant" when she
wrote Middlemarch and therefore what it means to us.
Iser has also studied the manner in which the reader fills in the
gaps in a text--the unsaid and the ambiguous. He does focus on
text but for the most part his focus is on what is not there and
therefore preeminently in the reader's domain. However, the last
thing Iser would focus on is the author's intentions. The author
through his agents sold us the book after all (or in this case, sold
it to the library from which I borrowed it) and in a very real sense
is out of the picture. The text is now ours.
Iser's reference to an ideal reader rather than any particular
reader is where he gets very, very dense. This is the area to
which I think you refer when you say that each of us individually
derives what he or she wants to derive from a text, based upon
his or her own experience. You raise a very valid question.
My only response is that during my rethinking of this novel, all I
did was go back and look closely at what Joe did and what Joe
said and filled in the gaps with my own imagination. The whole
thing was much, much more complex than a simple paean to
marital longevity and loyalty and the never-failing bliss to be
derived therefrom. And it's a great novel as a result. That seems
to me to be a valid conclusion, and I don't give a damn what Mr.
Stegner intended. Couldn't care less.
You have far too much faith in great authors, Dan. I'm telling you.
Those dummies haven't the faintest idea what they created or
how they created it. The honest ones will tell you that, too.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (140 of 150), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 03:37 PM
I think we're all hung up here on whether Joe & Ruth's marriage
was good or bad, autobiographical or not, and so on. Just what
do you expect a 50 year marriage to look like? Sweet nothings at
every turn? Or is one party complaining about his aches and pains
and the other is solicitous? Do they bicker? Do they walk arm in
arm around the other side of the house? All of the above?
IMHO, Stegner has presented a realistic view of what such a
relationship might look like. It has been noted that Stegner was
happily married himself and had a son who was nothing like Curtis.
To me, Stegner has deftly drawn a depiction that has struck such
a real chord with all of us.
Having passed the 30 year milestone, I hope I am so fortunate
that I will be able to answer the questions above. Maybe I'll be
Ruth to my husband's Joe. I don't think I'd mind it at all.
Metaphors be with you... MAP
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (141 of 150), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 03:54 PM
I hear you, MAP! At the risk of being autobiographical myself, I
must mention that during my first divorce--I had married at 18,
and it lasted almost 11 years, with a wonderful son then in
elementary school--I went totally bananas and, while crying on
the shoulder of my therapist, said that my favorite part of Paul
Harvey's radio broadcast was his salute to a couple somewhere in
the U.S. who had been married 50, 60 years or more. I told the
therapist that being married that long to the same person had
always been one of my dreams.
To which, to his everlasting credit, he replied: "Well, now that this
one's ended, Dale, I think you may very well have a good chance
at your wish."
Talk about random acts of kindness and wisdom. Of course, it
hasn't worked out that way. But hope springs eternal. And at
least, it was a beautiful closing line. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (142 of 150), Read 23 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 27, 2000 09:24 PM
MAP, I would expect a 50-year marriage to look exactly like this
one looked to me. Complex. Not simple. With good things and
some very not so good things. That's my only point. The test is,
does it work? In this sense: On balance are the two people both
happier together than they would be apart or perhaps with
someone else, marriage vows aside? I have serious doubts here
based upon what I read of Joe. Joe needed a little help to break
out, and he didn't get it.
Nor do I mean to demean others' aspirations in this regard. I have
no doubts about your situation. It's undoubtedly great! My own
aspirations would be to avoid at all costs some woman rubbing my
aged bald head, telling me I am cold, and directing me to get
inside. However, my own aspirations are irrelevant to the subject
at hand, and I have tried to take that into account from the
get-go here.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (143 of 150), Read 23 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 12:40 AM
I think in all this discussion about what marriage should, would,
could be, we’ve forgotten that each couple, and each person
within that couple, lives within and needs and expects and wants
and experiences a different marriage. A successful marriage is
whatever kind of marriage works for both parties, no matter what
it is.
I saw in Joe and Ruth, the longtime give and take and comfort of
a stable marriage. The glow of whatever rockets and bells went
off when they first fell in love, has long since faded and they have
reached an equilibrium that works most of the time. Not bad, in a
world where we seldom find perfection.
And some of us need rockets and bells more than others.
Astrid and Joe never got beyond the rockets and bells stage. Who
knows whether it would have lasted or what it would have turned
into.
As for finding THE ONE. It’s a big world out there. There’s always
more than one possibility, thank goodness. Besides, the person
who is THE ONE for you when you’re 18, may not be the person
who’s THE ONE when you’re 35, or 65.
I agree that Joe has a healthy sense of humor, and the ability to
laugh at himself and his own grumbles and mumbles. That’s one
reason they make delightful reading. How many of us wouldn’t
have thrown the book away in disgust if the POV character had
been merely a whiner?
“Do not go humble into that dark night. Rage, rage against the
dying of the light.” Most of the time Joe was just indulging in a
some good healthy raging.
I wrote all of the above before reading Pres’s note. Now I’m not
as sure as I was. Perhaps Joe is more tragic than I perceived him.
As for what Stegner meant, and what we’re reading into it
here—Marcel Duchamp said that a work of art is completed in the
eye of the beholder. Seems to me that’s just as true of literature
as of visual art.
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (144 of 150), Read 17 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 08:44 AM
Well, said, Ruth. Stegner wrote this book when he was 67 and by
then he had a pretty good idea of the way long term relationships
work.
When I was young, I believed in a fairy tale version of true love,
but age gave me a more realistic view.
Ann
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (145 of 150), Read 15 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 09:07 AM
Let me reiterate: There's a continuum between Iser and Fish. Iser
allows the author some control over the content of the text, but
he also notes that it is the reader who must inevitably wrestle
with the text and try to understand the author's works. Iser
allows the author "intention"--but he allows the careful reader the
freedom to understand the intention in any way that is in accord
to what is expressly within the text.
Fish says the author has no control whatever over the text. Total
meaning arises from the reader and the school of thought the
reader has attended. With Fish, there is no authorial
intention--it's all unconscious mumble-jumble that readers will
make a classic or a dud. The reader is everything--there's no
authors, there's no books, there's only readers. A pleasant CR
notion, n'est-ce pas?
Notice Dale (who probably didn't notice because he's the author
of the post) noted that he just writes and writes and all he can
do is take it out or leave it in. Ahhh-that's the authorial control
I'm driving at.
I get uncomfortable with this notion of writing as some form of
"automatic writing from the great beyond." I concede that
characters can take on a new life and that authors tend to create
great symbols or literary devices without any planning, but I don't
buy this "It's all out of my hands" kind of idea.
It's like the musician who spent hours and hours practicing. One
day someone asks how they accomplished some difficult
sequence. The musician shrugs and says, "It just came to me." No
it didn't--that's the wonderful euphoria after the years and years
of struggle.
Stegnor and Dale have spent their time writing and writing,
pounding away at the keyboard. They don't need literary maps or
pre-planned strategies--the ability to create meaning with words
is ingrained. In fact, with Dale, it is so deeply ingrained he doesn't
even know where its coming from anymore. Even he is pleasantly
surprised and will give a "I'll be damned" when someone notes how
something actually "works well" within something he has written.
I may be the lone wolf here, but I'm telling you--the authors are
still in control for a good reason. Let's not swim with Fish
completely yet.
Dan
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (146 of 150), Read 17 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 10:10 AM
Steve,
yes Damage is the book where the son falls down the stairs in
shock after finding his father in bed with his fiance. (the son's
finace yuck)And I have read it and seen the movie.. Damage is
about the hazards of acting on passion but also once one realizes
one has avoided passion the worse pain that causes. Sadly the
main character acts on his desire in an escapist kind of way
instead of just changing his life with positive action, he does it
with hurtful and uncontrolled action. But his life HAD to change in
all ways. The character had to seize passion but had no idea how
to do it without it being destructive to everyone in his life. I think
it's a fantastic take on things.
I did not like Astrid. I don't think he should have left his wife for
her. Just to clear that up. BUT> She is a catalyst for him to admit
to realize his approach to life. It never once occurred to me to
think of this novel as autobiographical. Actually I don't think of
any book as autobiographical.
I wouldn't even accept that notion if the writer themselves told
me their book was autobiographical. I can't see why anyone would
write about themselves when art is about imagination, as many
have sort of said here anyway. There would be no interest or
challenge for a writer to write of themselves in fiction. I'm
rambling, sorry back to some kind of topic here...
With contrasting TSB with it, we see a man who can control his
actions in regards to acting on his passion hurtfully. Joe gets
points for that. But, the book suggests to me that perhaps there
are other ways to reach out and feel and live with passion...but
he doesn't. Do all us humans really believe that its a choice in
life1) wild fun passion life or2) the middle road not as racy or fun,
but at least we have safety? Because right now thats what it
sounds like here.
In some ways it seems like Joe might be the study of a sore loser.
Yes, he and his wife are friends and thats cool. She's whats called
a care-giver(I too find that whole bit icky, like women are so
powerfully moved by mother hood and its duties and passion that
they bring that into their marriage after awhile it's like THAT
becomes the way they know how to love, yawn). In some ways
since Joe couldn't get what he wanted in his life he chose 'the
right thing' sure but now he's gonna punish himself and his wife
with his secret unhappiness. It's pretty subtle in this story but I
think whats going on.
I guess considering the things that were sad and unresolved in
their lives it is a good thing they could stay friends with each
other and they did have good things betwen each other. Some
people would have been outwardly bitter and probably broken up
with those very similar events but in a way ruth and Joe are
passive agressive bitter. She with her mothering sexuality and he
with his I'm a good guy because I didn't dump you.
Meanwhile back at the ranch, they suit each other and they are
at least friendly, polite and have company and share retirement.
So I guess that is cool and a long spectator marriage is 'worth it'.
Dan, I got off the fence okay!? ha ha.
(p.s. Steve
Yes, I have read Ken Kesey and Keroauc I was also a huge William
Burroughs fan, I just read Cities of The Red Night this month.
William Kotzwinkle and Bukowski I should add to that era and have
read and loved too. I have fairly broad reading habits not always
likeing everything but I like to know a variety of whats out there.
I try to keep up with lists like NYTs and read it too although I
haven't enjoyed a lot of what they recommended last year.
Seems there is a trend in what I call self-help fiction or survivor
fiction and I find it soap operaish.
I prefer big rocking action and nature novels as opposed to urban
angst and intellectualism)
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (147 of 150), Read 15 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 10:23 AM
Dale, I laughed so hard at your therapists closing line, that was so
cool!!!
Hey, one other thing...what about American Beauty. I was not a
huge fan of that movie I thought it was okay. A little too
charicature for me, but I loved how Kevin Spaceys character
came to see himself and he acted YET he didn't rry to change any
one else around him. He wanted them to allow him to change but
he didn't expect anyone else to. I thought that was the fresest
part of that script because there are so many people out there
who have a 'life change' and try to forcefeed change onto
everyone around them. Armchair psychobabble or whatever. He
din't even try to end his marriage, but he found his way to be
himself and in some ways
he proposed just let me be and I'll let you be but I need to be
happy here in this house.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (148 of 150), Read 8 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 11:37 AM
Dan, I'm with you. I think. Of course the author has the ultimate
sayso as to what appears in the book. It's ridiculous to think not.
But every reader brings a different life and a different experience
to bear, and will interpret and experience and fill in the gaps
differently. Most of us see a movie in our heads when we read. I
know I do. My movie is not going to look like your movie. The
characters are going to look different. The sets will be different.
The tone of voice of the characters will be different.
Candy, writing autobiographically is one of the most difficult
things there is. It's far more threatening to expose yourself,
rather than an imaginary character. It's far more difficult to know
the absolute truth about yourself, than it is to create someone
from the whole cloth.
I write poetry. Most poets write from autobiography. Surely you
can't be saying poetry is not creative. I find it's almost impossible
to write without bits and pieces of my life and thoughts falling
into it. But the bits and pieces get assembled along with other
bits and pieces which I think are imaginary. (One never knows.)
You say you're an artist? So am I. Everything that goes on that
canvas is bits of me. Even if it's just the choice of subject matter.
Why did Stegner choose to write about a Joe in that stage of life?
Stegner was 67. He knew something about that stage of life.
I didn't see that passive agressive bitterness you described. Or at
least not much of it. Few marriages are made in heaven.
There are always some rough edges. I saw a longtime couple
whose marriage has generally worked, picking at a few scabs.
Ruth
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (149 of 150), Read 5 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 12:18 PM
Ruth: That's exactly what I believe as well. The author possesses
a a say-so in the construction of the work, the reader possesses
a say-so in the reception of the work.
Dan
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (150 of 150), Read 5 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 12:29 PM
I have moved far enough to meet you in the middle, Dan. I agree
with that.
Sorry to be so slow in responding to your initial note on Fish and
Iser yesterday. Until I read your post, I had never heard of either
of these guys in my life. I had to bone up quickly in order to
sound authoritative.
In my opinion this is certainly something worth thinking about and
discussing. Thanks to you, Dale, Ruthie, and all for taking the
time.
For the umpteenth time, I really do like this novel. These
characters are great creations. Very real. I could pick them out of
a room full of people, I think.
Steve
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (151 of 158), Read 27 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 01:05 PM
Ruth,
Yes I am an artist and I write poetry too.
Sometimes someone comes up to me after reading a poem and
says I never knew you did this or that in your life and quotes a
line from a poem. I have to let them down and say, no I didn't do
that. It's a form of fiction, it's a poem not a diary. Yes, I put in
some 'real' anecdotes or the odd event is used to give it a real
feel. If I use the device of reality in a poem or story it is to help
deliver a stretch of the imagination. Some of my poems are
character based and I may use something from myself to develop
a character but they are not autobiographical. My life is not
interesting enough to be the sole content of a poem or story,
alas. I enjoy making people up out of nothing. Or with bits and
pieces.
Ruth, Steve and all,
I really love this novel. I am so impressed by it. The fact that I
am analyzing these characters and frustrated by them doesn't
mean I don't like the book. I even feel I could be friends with
them. I think it is brilliant that so many big issues have been
addressed in a novel set within a marriage. Not many writers can
do that and keep me interested.(see my scary harsh post under
The Archivist)
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (152 of 158), Read 32 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 01:25 PM
Candy: I've had the kinds of experiences you report, with people
assuming that a poem or novel is autobiographical. I choose to
take it as a compliment, because at least it means (I hope) the
reader found it believable.
I especially love your line:
My life is not interesting enough to be the sole content of a poem
or story, alas. I enjoy making people up out of nothing. Or with
bits and pieces.
I often tell classes that the most depressing part of attending
creative workshops, for me, was being told in most of them,
"Write what you know." The stuff I know is not even interesting
to me, and I'm darn sure nobody's going to lay out good money to
read it. {G}
(PS: IMHO, your post about THE ARCHIVIST is not harsh, it's
passionate. Big difference. You go, Candy.)
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (153 of 158), Read 27 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 01:56 PM
Thank you.
The wonderful thing for me with reading or writing or nature(I
associate these sensations as all the same kind of pleasure)
is to be relieved of the tyranny of my own mind or ideas. It's
reaching out to a community rather than my own limitations. It's
about expanding bigger than my own world and it's beliefs and
dis-beliefs.
Can I ask a dum question, what does IhMO mean? Or that group
of letters. I'm not down with on-line lingo. I know what LOL means
or LMAO, but thats about it.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (154 of 158), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 02:24 PM
Candy, that's all right. I don't know what LMAO means. IMHO
means "in my humble opinion." Very civilized, doncha think?
Sherry
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (155 of 158), Read 35 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 28, 2000 04:12 PM
thanks, thats pretty cool. LMAO is laughing my *** off. Not quite
as classy as the former.
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (156 of 158), Read 15 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 29, 2000 10:50 PM
Ruth,
In your post number 143 (I think??), you mentioned just what I
wanted to say about marriage.
I don't know if I agree about someone being "THE ONE" for you for
your whole life. Like you said, the one who is right for you at 20
may not be right for you at 50. If you find someone that you
believe is right for you, you have to work your whole life to keep
it that way. And that is what Ruth and Joe did. They are still
working at it in this book.
Jane
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (157 of 158), Read 18 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 30, 2000 06:38 AM
David, before this terrific thread dies out, could you tell me again
the name of the short story by Stegner that includes Ruth and
Joe? I have his book of Collected Stories and, for far, haven't
been able to find that one. However, I've been known to miss
these kinds of things before (-:
Barb
Topic:
The Spectator Bird by Wallace Stegner (158 of 158), Read 11 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, July 30, 2000 09:29 AM
Barb:
It was "Field Guide to the Western Birds".
David
|
Wallace Stegner
Here is a related discussion, about Stegner's On
the Teaching of Creative Writing..., that coincided with this topic.
|
