A Sentimental Educationwas published in 1869, a quarter of a century after Flaubert first drafted a very different novel with the same title. The final, painstakingly written and meticulously accurate version depicts undistinguished people in the extraordinary context of a crucial period in European history: the confrontation between militant capitalism and militant labour which boiled over in France in the Revolution of 1848.

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (1 of 2), Read 18
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 01, 2002 02:09 PM 


It’s September 1st so I’ll start the discussion. I’ve only read half
of SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION and it is my first reading of any
Flaubert. Monsieur Flaubert most definitely has a deft hand with
descriptions, an artist’s eye with details (with a special interest in
décor and lighting,) but methinks he likes the settings more than
the people he puts in them. At least up to this point the Parisians
of the novel are not all that appealing to me. I get a sense of the
social critic at play orchestrating social spheres that operate with
myopia and self-interest. Frederic has not yet won me over; I
want to like him but I don’t. There is something about the novel
that keeps me involved but I’m not sure what that element is.
Perhaps it’s Flaubert’s descriptive power, or his subtlety that feels
like real life, or the unexpectedness of the narrative progression.
Regardless, I am hooked.

Robt


 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (2 of 2), Read 13
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 01, 2002 08:36 PM 


Robert, I think Frederic is a higher class, male Emma Bovary in
many ways. But, where I did like Emma, I do not care for
Frederic. He's a snobbish opportunist who thinks women should
fall at his feet. 

(Speaking of feet, Flaubert's foot fetish is obvious in this one, too.)

Beej

 

 Topic: 
      SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (3 of 8),
      Read 18 times  
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Monday, September 02, 2002 05:08 PM 


I finished Sentimental Education today. I liked this book too,
Robt, even though its hard to explain exactly why. It doesn't
have any strong, sympathetic characters to really pull the
reader in, nor does it have any terrible villains. Frederic
seems more intelligent than Madame Bovary, but only just.
He is good natured, but exceptionally weak willed and all
too inclined to go with the flow. Few of the minor characters
even seem like nice people. Overall, this strikes me as a
cynical novel of disillusionment.

And yet, it did keep me reading. What most appealed to me
was the sensation that Flaubert was presenting me with a
true slice of life in the mid-nineteenth century. A lot of the
descriptive detail was downright fascinating. I don't know if
you've gotten to the costume ball yet, but he gives the
reader an enthralling picture of decadence. I was also
amused by all of the political discussions and posturing. It
was interesting to see how the political viewpoints of the
young men changed as they actually came in contact with
the common people or personally felt the lure of money or
power. Some things never change.

The major female characters can be divided into saint,
whore, and bitch -- not a very attractive lineup. I found it
difficult to understand Frederic's passion for Madame
Arnoux.

Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
      SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (4 of 8),
      Read 22 times  
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net 
 Date: 
      Monday, September 02, 2002 09:56 PM 


I often find it difficult to understand these literary passions.
I'm less than a hundred pages in, but was pretty surprised
to find him obsessed with her almost from the first, just from
a look at her on that boat. It seems to me that obsessions
of that kind have very little to do with the object of the
obsession and more to do with the needs, preconceptions
and fantasies of the obsessee. 


Sherry

 
 

 Topic: 
      SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (5 of 8),
      Read 21 times  
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, September 03, 2002 12:11 AM 


Bingo, Sherry.

Ruth 

 
 

 Topic: 
      SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (6 of 8),
      Read 19 times  
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, September 03, 2002 09:27 AM 


I agree, Sherry. Frederic seemed to have had a need for an
ideal woman whom he could put on a pedestal, but never
"debase" with a real physical relationship. Although he
wanted to make love to her, she would not have been true
to her character had she given in to him and her attraction
would have evaporated if she had stepped down from that
pedestal. In the meantime, he could have sexual
relationships with lesser women.

This kind of thinking is beyond me, but it does seem to
reflect male views of women from earlier eras. From what I
have read, this part of the story was autobiographical.
Flaubert himself was for many years in love with an older
woman married to a man quite similar to Arnoux.

Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
      SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (7 of 8),
      Read 1 times  
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, September 04, 2002 08:43 PM 


Hasn't Flaubert said that Sentimental Education was
somewhat autobiographical or am I wrong about that? I'm
about halfway through and am finding that I like it more
than Madame Bovary. That's probably because I love the
descriptions of all the decadent situations, the costume ball
that Ann mentioned, the promenade in the carriages. I also
keep coming across mentions of some of my favorite places
in Paris. However, this is not reading for people who need
to like a character in their novels. What an unsympathetic
lot they are!

Barb 


 Topic: 
      SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (8 of 8),
      Read 1 times  
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, September 04, 2002 08:44 PM 


And, Sherry, you did truly nail the quality of romantic
obsession with your description. Excellent.

Barb


 Topic: 
      SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (9 of 10),
      Read 13 times  
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:30 PM 


I liked it better than Madame Bovary too, Barb. Frederic isn't
exactly sympathetic, but I far preferred him to Madame B,
probably because I saw him as fundamentally weak rather
than selfish. Mostly, I just wanted to shake him by the collar
and say "Get a job!" Obviously the guy needed something
to occupy his mind and his time besides romantic fantasies.

Have you gotten to the part where they describe some of
the political meetings after the revolution of 1848? There is
really some very funny political satire in this part of the
novel.

Ann


 Topic: 
      SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (10 of 10),
      Read 9 times  
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Thursday, September 05, 2002 07:36 AM 


I felt the same way about Frederic, Ann. Having 2 sons
approaching that age probably made me want to shake him
more.

I am just at the part in which the revolutionary has been
arrested (sorry, I don't have the book here and I can't
remember his name) and just starting to read more about
that side of it. Is that going into the part that you are
talking about?

Also, I have a lot of trouble keeping the names straight. It
reminds me of my predicament when I first started reading
the Russian novelists. Eventually, those names got more
familiar and I had a lot less difficulty.

Barb

 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (11 of 20), Read 22
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Friday, September 06, 2002 01:07 AM 


Hi sentimental readers,
I will join you after all. While my library in town could not get a
hold one, the Barnes and Nobel people took care of me. They just
had one copy left. Read the introduction and it seems very
complex and I only hope I will be able to keep the names straight.

Ernie

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (12 of 20), Read 26
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Theresa Simpson theresa.a.simpson@gte.net 
 Date: 
     Friday, September 06, 2002 01:59 AM 


Ernie, it's worth the read. I got started on my re-read of this, but
then was side-tracked by True History of the Kelly Gang. What a
fantastic book; I know it got some discussion here a while back,
and I second the recommendation. But I'll be back to SE this
week-end.

I think it was a characteristic of certain French writers of the period
to show humans, warts and all, the dawn of social realism, death
of the moral fable, what hey? Think of Balzac. Think of Zola
(believe he was a bit later, but still).

Theresa
Life breaks in on philosophy like morning. Herman Melville

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (13 of 20), Read 22
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, September 10, 2002 09:07 AM 


I finished reading SE last night. It seems to me I'd get a great deal
out of it if I just started right over, since even at the end I had
trouble with sorting characters out. But I know I won't do that,
since I have too many things I want to read. 

I ended up liking Frederic better than I thought I would, given how
he started out. I admired his dismissal of Madame Dambreuse for
her cruelty. I wonder, though, how he would have reacted had she
inherited all her husband's money. I must have missed something
big, because Cecile seemed to appear out of nowhere, but I know
she must have been there before -- just more of my trouble
keeping characters straight. 

Was there a character here who was an interesting, noble "good"
character? 



Sherry

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (14 of 20), Read 19
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:45 AM 


I have made some progress with The Sentimental Education. Well,
Sherry you are not alone having trouble keeping characters
straight. I am unwilling at this point to start over again and take
notes like "Frederic is....." From other French novels that I have
read these people act similar in some ways and there is some
European flavor to it when I make comparisons. The British are
different. The boy-male friendships bond while existing to a lesser
extent in other countries as well is more pronounced in France.
The idealizing of a total stranger and falling in love with her, is also
something one finds in the European literature - at least in the
past. People have turned out to be out to be more realistic- even
in Europe. I should be honest at this point, having only read
perhaps 100 pages that this book makes me uncomfortable the
way people act and the way they are described. Hope this will
change as I continue reading. 

If you can do it, try to compare the spirit of the relationships with
Joyce's Ulysses. Well there is the matter of social status which
goes with (somewhat strange) behavior in Flaubert and I don't
remember anything like this in Joyce. Joyce made me feel more
comfortable...That Arnoux character gives me the creeps for some
reason. His wife has not been characterized but sight unseen (even
if good looking and all that) does not make much of an impression
on me. Well I have not met her at the Ball Masque at the Salon....

Ernie

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (15 of 20), Read 20
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, September 11, 2002 07:04 AM 


Ernie, I doubt that your comfort level will get a whole lot better.
The characters don't change much. They do change in subtle ways,
but there is never an epiphany where Frederic says: "I must
change my life for the better." Well, he has several changes of
heart, mostly regarding whether he's in love with a certain woman,
but generally these changes don't last for long. He also changes
his "life's work" at a moment's notice, but no life's work ever
seems to get him totally involved and interested. He dabbles in
painting, writing, law, but never seems to make a living at any of
it. It makes you wonder how anything ever gets done when people
inherit money. I was amazed his money lasted him through to the
end of the book, since he seemed to give it away (and spend it) so
freely.

Even though the book is entitled Sentimental Education, it's not at
all sentimental (even though it's main character certainly is). As
someone said up thread, it shows people warts and all. There are
a lot of warts here. 

Sherry

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (16 of 20), Read 22
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:56 AM 


>>It makes you wonder how anything ever gets done when
people inherit money. 

That's good, Sherry. Puts me in mind of all those other novels
where nobody seems to have a visible means of support.

Ruth 

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (17 of 20), Read 22
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, September 11, 2002 07:49 PM 


I'm still working my way through this one, and have less than a
hundred pages to go. So far, I'm just trying to figure out where the
plot is....or if there even is a plot.

As far as I can determine, this is the story of a young man with too
much time on his hands, who spends an extraordinarily huge
amount of effort on trying to find different ways to impress various
women. Maybe something will happen in the remaining pages that
will change my mind, tho. 

Beej

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (18 of 20), Read 19
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Thursday, September 12, 2002 07:32 AM 


I'm getting to the end too and actually find that I'm liking it better.
I love these descriptions of the revolution. It so perfectly fits with
political groups that I watched or participated in during the late
60's and early 70's. He captures that sense of constantly whirling
agendas with individuals able to grab control of the podium and
send the group off in a different direction at a moment's notice. Of
course, this period was more dangerous to those involved in
France but the similarities are eery.

I've decided that this book is much less a story of characters than
a description of a time in history. When it is read with that in mind,
it is far more enjoyable.

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (19 of 20), Read 19
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net 
 Date: 
     Thursday, September 12, 2002 07:45 AM 


Since I know absolutely nothing about that time in history, it was
both fascinating and confusing (I'm a complete history idiot -- the
opposite of Cathy Hill). How many French Revolutions were there?
The footnotes didn't really help me, since they seemed to
pre-suppose some knowledge. But I just went with the flow. I
imagine being there might have been just as confusing. The
political alliances of the characters (who themselves hadn't totally
etched themselves in my mind) seemed to keep swaying back and
forth. And that poor rich guy, Dambreuse. I think he died of
political confusion. He worked so hard trying to play toady to the
factions in power, it finally did him in.


Sherry


 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (20 of 20), Read 17
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Thursday, September 12, 2002 03:52 PM 


From just reading other posting the book becomes more
interesting as it goes on. I am especially interested in the French
Revolution and, if I remember correctly it went on for ever. It was
a cruel and very bloody but eventually produced Napoleon. Yet the
revolution brought at least the beginning of democracy to the rest
of Europe. 

As to people who inherit money. It's a tempting idea but somehow
I felt left out. Well, I would not have it distributed to the various
charities. It's just not my nature. But to be serious for a moment,
the people I know who have received large inheritances turned out
to be tight wads. They hang on to every penny. Of course there
must be others who are big spenders. Old money people are the
ones who are tight. Did anyone read the fairly recent book: The
Millionaire Next Door? That's another very large but tight group
who drive old jalopies, and go on camping vacations at
inexpensive camp grounds.

Anyone read Balzac's Pere Gooriot? It has a bit of bearing on this
discussion. 

Ernie

 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (21 of 34), Read 16
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, September 17, 2002 01:49 AM 


I am making good progress with S.E. and I find it a much more
interesting read than when I first started out. Also all the negative
feelings I had initially pretty much disappeared. But, I have to
admit that I am not crazy about any of the characters. 

I believe either Ann or Barb said they felt like Shaking Frederic.
May I join you? His aimless inactivity enrages me. He can't stick to
a thing, law, art,available girls. He does stick to one fantasy
however up to where I am in this book. The other thing that
irritates me no end is his absence of true libido (as we
psychologists call it). I am about half way through and there are
all these opportunities he has to have a close, satisfying romantic
relationship (also he got money) yet he has not taken any positive
steps in this direction - so far that is. Instead he prefers to
fantasize about a woman he once saw on a ship for perhaps 5
minutes and so far has been unavailable to him. Well he manages
to be near her by making friends with the husband and listens as
she complains about the guy who is obviously -to put it mildly-
questionable.

Yes, its up to now a story of what life was like in these good old
days (?). How people behaved what they thought and did and what
life was like in these good old days. That makes it interesting and
this is what I like best about the book. Also it is very well written
and readable.

If I would have found myself in Frederic's shoes at that time, I
would not have found a number of interesting things to do instead
of running around aimlessly in circles.

Ernie

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (22 of 34), Read 17
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, September 18, 2002 08:06 PM 


Ernie,
Eventually, Frederic's libido does kick in, but I agree that it
seemed to take an unusually long time. I ended up really liking the
book because it was such an interesting slice of life in the
mid-nineteenth century.

Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (23 of 34), Read 15
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Mary Anne Papale papcons@earthlink.net 
 Date: 
     Friday, September 20, 2002 08:30 PM 


I have to say that the reading of SE was greatly enhance by my
actually being in Paris while reading it. Thank you for making it our
September book!
With that, I can add to Barb's point about SE being about a time in
history, it is certainly also a book about a place and the prevailing
culture of that time. Flaubert's description of the siege of Paris is
probably quite accurate. When touring Paris today, you don't get
the full flavor of this history unless you can imagine all of the
bloody wounded lain out in front of the Pantheon, as Flaubert
described.
The name confusion was a problem for me because there were too
many characters with "D" names: Dambreuse, Deslauriers,
Dussardier. And just about everyone is self-serving. 

MAP

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (24 of 34), Read 17
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
     Saturday, September 21, 2002 11:13 AM 


It presents a pretty cynical view of human nature, doesn't it MAP?
After the revolutions in the earlier part of the 19th century, the
French finally widened the streets to make the beautiful
boulevards you can see today. It made putting up barricades and
fighting behind them much more difficult. I think that took place
around the 1870's.

Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (25 of 34), Read 18
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Theresa Simpson theresa.a.simpson@gte.net 
 Date: 
     Saturday, September 21, 2002 03:41 PM 


Funny, how practical French solutions to social unrest can be;
maybe that's a result of a civil law system? 

When Sorbonne students organized and almost took over Paris in
the late 1960s, the response was to split Sorbonne up into 10
different institutions - makes mass organization more difficult.

Theresa
Life breaks in on philosophy like morning. Herman Melville

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (26 of 34), Read 21
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Saturday, September 21, 2002 05:16 PM 


And, we don't think of the French as practical, do we? 

I have been inching through Sentimental Education and finally
finished it last night. I think the cause for the slowness was my
life, not the book. Robert Baldick in my introduction describes it as
a novel of disillusionment. I can see that as a description of the
French people during this time period. However, I certainly never
saw Frederic as idealistic. Naive might be a better description.

I thought this was an interesting quote from Flaubert (also from
my intro):

'...this book is doomed to failure, because it doesn't do this.' He
put his long, powerful hands together in the shape of a pyramid.
'The public,' he explained, 'wants works which exalt its illusions,
whereas Sentimental Education...' And here he turned his big
hands upside down and opened them as if to let his dreams fall
into a bottomless pit...

Barb 

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (27 of 34), Read 19
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 22, 2002 11:42 AM 


Barb,
That quote pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

Perhaps as a society we have grown so much more cynical that
the whole concept of a worshipful love from afar strikes us as
ridiculous from the get go. I know we all had trouble with
Frederic's passion for the practically perfect Madame Arnoux. I
enjoyed the irony of her last meeting with Frederic. At this point,
she may have finally been ready to offer herself to Frederic, but
he is turned off by how much she has aged.

The lamp, standing on a console table, lit up her white hair. It was
like a blow full in the chest.

To conceal his disappointment, he went down on his knees, took
her hands, and started murmuring endearments to her.

At least he had the decency to conceal his revulsion from her,
although a minute later he catches sight of her foot, and almost
swoons again. What is this about Flaubert and feet? Didn't you
mention he had a foot fetish, Beej?

Ann



 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (28 of 34), Read 21
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 22, 2002 11:53 AM 


I mentioned earlier that I was amused by the political satire in this
book, particularly that involving the plans of the temporarily
successful revolutionaries. I was struck by the fact that many of
their supposedly "wild" schemes have actually come to pass. For
example, when Frederic gave his speech as a potential political
candidate, He demanded a tax on income, graduated taxation, a
European federation, education for the masses, and the greatest
possible encouragement for fine arts. All but the last have come to
pass.

Even that wild eyed feminist Mademoiselle Vatnaz had some pretty
modern ideas. She wanted the admission of women to all types of
employment, investigation into the paternity of illegitimate
children, a new legal code, and either the abolition of marriage or
at the very least 'a more intelligent regulation of the institution.'

These ideas may have seemed as radical to Flaubert's
contemporaries as some of her other proposals seem to us, such
as the idea that every Frenchwoman should be obliged to marry a
Frenchman or to adopt and old man.

Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (29 of 34), Read 20
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 22, 2002 01:43 PM 


Excellent points about what they were proposing, Ann. I've always
been under the impression that the French were some of the most
progressive thinking people about democratic ideals. However,
they had a hard time instituting them without so much revolution
that it set the entire process back. Is that totally inaccurate
thought on my part?

I liked Madame Vatnaz, not surprisingly. About the only other
character in the book that I liked was Roque's daughter. I kept
wishing that her character would be developed a bit more. 

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (30 of 34), Read 21
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Theresa Simpson theresa.a.simpson@gte.net 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 22, 2002 03:27 PM 


My guess is that Flaubert was poking fun at Vatnaz as to all of her
beliefs - admitting women to employment seemed just as absurd
to him as requiring marriage to a Frenchman. It's our own outlook
that now sees these ideas as quite logical.

I'm only on page 150 of SE; life has gotten in the way of my
reading time. And I have to go read some cases on tortious
interference this afternoon (with a break at 3:00 to go see Gabe
read, Barb); so I don't know that I'll make much progress this
week-end.

Theresa
Life breaks in on philosophy like morning. Herman Melville

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (31 of 34), Read 17
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 22, 2002 07:41 PM 


Barb,
Well the French certainly had more revolutions than the average
country - from 1789 through 1799, and then much smaller ones in
1830 and 1848. The English handled the implementation of
democratic ideals much more gradually and successfully.

I rather liked Vatnaz too. She was at least an enterprising woman
in a time when it was extremely difficult for a woman to make it on
her own. I really expected Frederic to marry Roque's daughter,
who seemed preferable to the other women he was involved with.

Theresa, I completely agree that Flaubert was making fun of all
these "liberal" ideas, including the ones we take for granted today.

What did you all think of Frederic's best friend, Deslauriers? At first
I was sympathetic, but then when he started going after Frederic's
women just for the challenge of it I decided he was complete
scum.

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (32 of 34), Read 18
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, September 23, 2002 07:19 AM 


I know very little about Flaubert's political beliefs. However, I'm
fairly sure he was making fun of Vatnaz's. That makes the irony of
some of it coming true today even more delicious. As to some of
the other beliefs, I had the sense that he might have had some
sympathy. But, as in any political movement, the everyday
workings under the ideals are directed by mere mortals and are
full of all of our flaws: vanity, greed, etc. I must say that, the
more I ponder this book, the more it makes me think of the
political movements in the U.S. in the 60's and early 70's.

Ann, when I think of Deslauriers, I remember that Frederic
actually may have been idealistic at one time. Remember that
they had agreed in school to share and share alike in all that life
brought them. At least, that's the impression I had in the
beginning. I could understand Deslaurers' bitterness that, when
Frederic came into his fortune, these ideals were largely forgotten.
I liked his character a bit, but I thought that Flaubert did a good
job of painting a realistic picture of what would happen in the
reality of time. I did think that there were great leaps in his
development though which weren't painted in quite enough.


Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (33 of 34), Read 14
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Monday, September 23, 2002 05:36 PM 


I am now reading the fascinating part about the French revolution
and a bit of activity in Frederics love life. I did no expect either of
these when I started out. So perhaps he is being educated all right
in a sentimental way as the title of the book promised. 

But mainly I am increasingly enjoying the the book as it deals with
a broader range of events and activities. Still can't understand the
main character as I have never run into someone like it. But he
seems to make an effort to "take part", "participate" and I give
him credit for that. 

This book is very well written and has become increasingly
interesting. Just the same Madame B ovary, as I remember,
seemed more dynamic and continued to hold my interest. Are
there some similarities between Frederic and Madame Bovary's
husband (passivity, lack of involvement)?
Ernie


 Topic: 
     SENTIMENTAL EDUCATION by Gustave Flaubert (34 of 34), Read 11
     times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, September 23, 2002 09:08 PM 


Ernie, I had seen similarities between Emma B. and Frederic, but
your question concerning similarities between Charles B. and
Frederic is quite interesting. Now that you mention it, I can see
where Frederic has characteristics of both Bovarys.

Beej


From: Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date: Thursday, October 17, 2002 02:31 AM

I am totally ashamed of myself for just having finished the Sentimental Education. I became very interesting in the cultural events taking place in France at that time. Sherry is entirely correct when she can see warts and all. What's impressive about Flaubert and Zola is that they write history and events as they are. They don't glorify them or make heros out of people who are obviously are mediocre.

What bothered me as Frederic gets involved with women he once more shows his weakness. He can't make up his mind who is his first choice, he goes back and forth - but - he clearly sees them more realistically as practical and aggressively trying to further their lives. He sees the Marshall as she is and that is a bit disappointing. His idealistic admiration of females seems to slowly but surely decline so that he sees them as not too different from men in their own ways.

He does seem to avoid serious involvements at all cost because he is not willing to pay the price in his indecisiveness. Just the same I like him better than I would like a determined radical with fixed ideas one way or the other. I feel I would enjoy sitting down and chatting with Frederic about a number of things. He is intellectual no doubt and likeable in most ways. I don't admire people who desperately pursue one course or another, the wild goose chasers. And hesitate to admit that there are a few of view and characteristics that I share with
Frederic.

Ernie


From: Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date: Thursday, October 17, 2002 07:34 AM

Flaubert certainly was an early realist, wasn't he, Ernie? I find it so ironic that he entitles this book with the word sentimental and the proceeds to present characters stripped of all artifice. I can relate to the part of Frederic that couldn't commit wholeheartedly to any of these causes in the end, that always began to see the less idealistic parts of them. He also is a realistic character to me in that his own self was far too central to him to be abandoned to a philosophy. It's interesting that his illusions about women were the last to go. I think many have commented that Flaubert saw a lot of himself in Frederic.

Barb