From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, April 14, 1999 02:38 PM
The Reader by Bernhard Schlink
I did read this after all, so all my worry about not being able to begin the
discussion was unnecessary. I broke into The Idiot to do it, and I don't like
reading more than one book at a time, but The Reader was worth it. I want to
encourage you all to read it. There is much to discuss in this slim book (I
suppose 218 pages is slim after hunkering down with my 600+ page
Dostoesvski). One moral dilemma after another. The erotic beginning has its own
moral dilemma. The boy is 15, the woman is 35 (or thereabout). His emotional
and physical bonding with her have grave consequences. She has secrets. After
he grows up he finds her again, in surprising circumstances. There are no blacks
and whites here, but ever-changing shades of gray. I have many questions I
would like to pose, but I will wait until I know there are others out there who have
finished the book.
Sherry
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (2 of 51), Read 53 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Wednesday, April 14, 1999 03:44 PM
I just started the third section, Sherry. Moral dilemmas indeed. I keep wondering
how this is all going to turn out, and if there are going to be answers given or
suggested, or if we're just going to be forced to think for ourselves. Not a bad
thing, actually.
Ruth
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (3 of 51), Read 55 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, April 14, 1999 03:50 PM
Sherry and Ruth -- Jim is in CA until a week from today but he told me that he
had picked up my copy of this book -- it was in the stack to buy in Dec but I put it
back -- sheesh, how silly can I be? BUT here is the REAL news -- my non-reading
husband -- had already read half of it when he called me at midnight last night
and he had just bought it that afternoon when he and his Dutch and Belgian
colleagues had gone to the local shopping mall in San Jose! He has also read
TWO books since January when our things were all unpacked! He MIGHT have
potential yet for CR -- what do you think????
Dottie -- who cannot wait to gulp down The Reader and jump into the discussion!
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (4 of 51), Read 57 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Wednesday, April 14, 1999 04:01 PM
I finished THE READER about the time Oprah did her show on it. The audience
perspective shocked me, but I was delighted with Schlink's comments and
defense. I'll go into it more as the discussion gets under way. I liked this book a
lot, mainly for those "shades of gray" which make for meaty dialogues. But I did
not feel satisfied with the end, though I can understand it...
Anne
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (5 of 51), Read 59 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Maralyn Fairberg (fairmara@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, April 14, 1999 04:44 PM
I finished THE READER last week and I am also eager for the dialogue to begin.
Morality. Truth. Love. Meaty topics indeed.
Maralyn
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (6 of 51), Read 62 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ian Marks (cybergoose@kdee67.freeserve.co.uk)
Date:
Wednesday, April 14, 1999 05:18 PM
Ready when you are with The Reader! (I think it benefits - like a lot of books -
from a second reading, but don't let that put first-timers off!)
Ian
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (7 of 51), Read 48 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@jeffco.k12.co.us)
Date:
Wednesday, April 14, 1999 08:53 PM
I was very disappointed by this book. Yes, it was 218 pages, but with the size of
its margins being twice the usual size, the book could have fit into 100 normal
pages. There is a lot to discuss, but I felt like Schlink just touched the surface
with his book. I wanted more, more! It is interesting that my mother-in-law just
finished THE READER as well, and her first comment was, "I found that book to be
very disappointing."
One part that I found fascinating was Michael's trip to Le Struthof, because I
visited that camp when I was studying at the University of Strasbourg. It is in the
Vosges mountains out in the middle of nowhere. The people who were sent there
must have frozen to death in the winter.
Jane
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (8 of 51), Read 49 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Thursday, April 15, 1999 06:44 AM
Interesting, Jane. I guess that after reading a couple of really long books, I was
looking forward to the shortness of this. I had no expectations, so I was not
disappointed. In fact I really liked it.
I'm going to pose a moral dilemma for everyone. There are so many in this
book, I think the a good way to talk about them is to place yourself squarely in
the middle of the quandary.
SPOILERS ABOUND
Imagine you are Hanna. You find that you are a guard at the camp because you
don't want the promotion that would uncover your secret. What would you do?
What moral obligations do you have? You don't have the luxury of hindsight or
historical perspective. You don't have any power. You see what happens to
troublemakers. You see cruelty up close. Would you chose death over doing the
right thing?
Sherry
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (9 of 51), Read 53 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Katie Kleczka (knp@execpc.com)
Date:
Thursday, April 15, 1999 07:40 PM
BEWARE....SPOILERS, HOWEVER SUBTLE, DO EXIST BELOW!!!!!
__________________________
__________________________
During a most trying time in my life, my Grandmother told me that the
split-second decisions we make in times of great crisis, are the moments that
define our true character. Until I made one of those lightening-fast decisions and
came to know a shadowy part of my own existence during my deliberations, I
hadn't the faintest idea what she meant. Well, I do now, and you have reminded
me again of her words.
Like many other people, I see myself as a basically good, morally well-developed
individual. And so, when faced with a question such as you have posed, Sherry, I
like to think that I would have the courage to stand up and resist that evil with all
the moral conviction and strength of character I possess, even if it meant my life.
Based solely upon who I am at this point in my existence, and attempting to
conjure up life back then sans the knowledge of the horrifying outcome that I now
possess, I can't imagine that I would ever have chosen to work as a camp guard,
and I can't even begin to imagine that I would EVER leave that church door
locked.
But deep inside, there was a part of me that followed Hanna's wartime actions
with some modicum of compassion and empathy. Were I faced with her
struggles, would I have reacted as she did? I don't know. I am further
handicapped by knowing little to nothing of her world view, her prejudices, her
politics, or her religion. Without her frame of reference, it is hard to visualize
myself in her shoes. Thinking only of Hanna and the limitations and challenges
of her life, her initial choice to work in the camps is not unimaginable. Her
concept of "mercy" which governs her actions in the camp is misguided and
distasteful (in my opinion), but not utterly impossible to comprehend. It is when
a locked door and a burning church confront Hanna, I think to myself that there is
NO "choice" required. The only "right" thing to do was to unlock that door, and I
would like to believe that I would have died attempting to do so.
Whew!
That was TOUGH, Sherry! :)
Katie
"Everything in moderation, EXCEPT for reading."
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (10 of 51), Read 54 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@jeffco.k12.co.us)
Date:
Thursday, April 15, 1999 08:04 PM
Sherry and Katie,
I have always hoped that I would have given up my life to stop the Holocaust, but
I am not so sure. Would I have been too afraid to be different from everyone
else? Hannah was not educated and had a limited number of jobs that she could
take that would not require some sort of reading. To her, it may have been a
matter of survival, and perhaps it was more important for her to survive than to
do the right thing. She was in the habit of ignoring what was going on in the
camp, so it would have been easy to ignore the burning church. What she did is
horrible, but it is understandable. I can't condone it, and I hope that I would have
unlocked the church.
Jane
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (11 of 51), Read 55 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Thursday, April 15, 1999 08:08 PM
I'm not sure the moral issue was even acknowledged by Hanna. She was a guard
who followed orders. That generation of Germans took pride in their ability to
follow any order from authority. There was no question about right and wrong, to
me...Her orders were to keep the door locked. It's again that notion of black &
white. We Americans agonize over doing the right thing. Everyday people in the
SS simply did what they were told. That, in essence, becomes part of the guilt the
2nd generation must begin to understand and accept.
Anne
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (12 of 51), Read 55 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Friday, April 16, 1999 12:12 AM
I know that in any discussion, I stand up for my belief in what's right. I also know
that there is a side of me that is a coward. I probably would have been very
careful NOT to take a job like Hanna did. But if somehow I did find myself in her
position, it shames me to admit that I might have been too frightened to do
other than obey orders.
In considering Hanna's guilt, as Anne has pointed out, we have to consider that
this was a time and a place where obeying orders was what you did.
That said, we have to think about the fact that Hanna's superiors were not around
during the burning of the church. Perhaps the question is---did she or did she not
realize they were not coming back? How much did she think she would risk by
unlocking the church? Or did she even THINK of unlocking it?
Ruth
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (13 of 51), Read 54 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Mary Anne Papale (fdlx59b@prodigy.com)
Date:
Friday, April 16, 1999 07:26 AM
There are any number of examples in history when keeping order among the
masses, not just following orders, is what is done. Those who are charged with
keeping order, do it quite well, at all costs. An example that comes to mind is the
incident in American labor history of the shirtwaist factory fire, when the female
workers who were sewing shirtwaist dresses were locked in the building for their
shift, and thus perished in a fire. As Katie points out, being able to make that
quick decision that will change the order of things is what is needed. But what if
an individual does not have the ability to make that decision to change
something? Was Hanna capable of it?
I am also fascinated by the premise that Hanna was more shamed by her
illiteracy than by her bad decision. We could have an interesting discussion here
about the perceived difference in valuation.
Did anyone else feel that this was two books in one? I had the sensation that I
was reading along, la dee dah, and then bam! The book went a direction I didn't
expect. I definitely felt the need to re-read the first section.
MAP
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (14 of 51), Read 48 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Maralyn Fairberg (fairmara@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, April 16, 1999 12:05 PM
I come to this discussion with a very firmly held belief that every human being is
capable of moral judgment and independent decision making and that the
Holocaust occurred because individual Germans made a decision to act or not to
act. I do not accept at face value the usual defenses offered that the Germans
were coerced to participate in the killing, or that they were just following orders or
that they were psychologically incapable of saying “no”. I believe these
“explanations” ignore the extraordinary nature of the deed –the mass killing of 6
million innocent Jews. The Germans did this to other human beings, not to
animals or things.
We have no evidence whatsoever that Hanna was forced to carry out the killings.
We have no evidence that if she had refused to kill Jews she would have been
killed, or sent to a concentration camp or severely punished. I believe that Hanna
had the capacity to know and to judge and to understand the significance and
morality of her actions, and she chose to act inhumanely. She did not want to say
no.
Maralyn
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (15 of 51), Read 50 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Susan Horning (silverymoon@mindspring.com)
Date:
Friday, April 16, 1999 12:19 PM
I receive Constate Reader by email and don't know if I can post this way ..
however .. I'll try ..
I don't think Hanna was capable of thinking that change was possible. Had
she thought change was possible or something she could accomplish for
herself ... she would not have remained illiterate.
Suzz
-------------------------
But what if an individual does not have the ability to make that decision
to change something? Was Hanna capable of it?
>
>MAP
>
=====================
Current reads:
To Begin Again by Rabbi Naomi Levy
King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschild
Just finished:
Replacing Dad by Shelley Fraser Mickle
=====================
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (16 of 51), Read 48 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, April 16, 1999 08:09 PM
PLOT SPOILERS FOLLOW:
I just finished this book tonight -- most interesting. I think Anne is right. At the
time she was a guard and during the trial at least, Hana did not even recognize
that she was confronted by a moral dilemma. She was just doing her job and she
did not question it. If she had unlocked the church doors, the prisoners could not
have been controlled and they would have escaped. On page 127, she says:
We couldn't just let them escape! We were responsible for them...I mean, we had
guarded them the whole time, in the camp and on the march, that was the point, that we
had to guard them and not let them escape...
Later, when she started reading concentration camp literature, she may have felt
differently.
We would all like to feel that we are braver than we are. I can also understand
that human beings can numb themselves to the horror of their job and carry on
with a certain routine, refusing to recognize the pain they are causing. But coward
that I am, I do not think that I could leave screaming women locked in a church
to burn to death. Because Hana had a personal relationship with the young girls
who reader to her, it is also very difficult for me to understand how she could
have picked them to go to Auschwitz.
There is another moral problem in this book that bothers me a lot, and that is
the thought of a 36 year old woman having a sexual relationship with a 15 year
old boy. Keep in mind that I am the mother of 18 and 16 year old boys, so the
subject seems close to home. A 15 year old is still a child in many ways and is
just not emotionally equipped to handle a relationship with an adult women. 15
year old girls are their speed and that's about it. Michael never had a successful
adult relationship with a woman and I think Hana was the cause.
Hana interested me, but I never liked her or felt much sympathy for her. She
used "the kid," whom she could never even manage to call by name.
Still, this is a most interesting book, and I'm glad I read it.
So how did Oprah's audience react, Anne?
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (17 of 51), Read 43 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Barbara Moors (ncsh82b@prodigy.com)
Date:
Saturday, April 17, 1999 08:22 AM
I had the same sensation of being jerked into another book when I came to Part
Two of The Reader. Part One seemed a more realistic version of "The Summer of
'42" though there was a little niggling wonder about Hanna's background which
allowed her to be so immersed in a relationship with a 15 year old boy for so long
a time.
During Part Two, there were times that I thought Schlink started to let his political
message distract from the novel, when he bordered on preaching. I know we've
discussed this factor with other novels, particularly Kingsolver's, and I'm always
interested in how novelists blend the two.
Particularly on pg. 104, I felt that he started to depart from his character (a
college student) and become the adult author.
What did everyone else think about this?
Regarding Hanna's blame for being a concentration camp guard, I always have
trouble assigning too much blame to those in the lower ranks of these monstrous
situations. I can't think of too horrible a punishment for Hitler or the others at the
top, but I can't summon up a lot of hate for an illiterate camp guard. Like all of
the rest of you, I can't imagine not unlocking those church doors, but Ann and
Anne's notes on it make a lot of sense.
{SPOILER ALERT}
I didn't suspect that Hanna was illiterate until she decided to confess to writing
the report after hearing that she might be asked to give a sample of her writing.
When did everyone else suspect it? I'm surprised that I didn't pick up on it during
Part One, particularly when she exploded after Michael left her the note during
their bike trip.
Barb
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (18 of 51), Read 43 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, April 17, 1999 09:48 AM
Barb,
I didn't guess that Hana was illiterate until the narrator revealed it either.
You compared the first part of the book to THE SUMMER OF 42. I take it that
means you weren't as bothered about the older woman/young boy relationship as
I was?
Also, did you other readers think that the author was using Hana as a symbol of
the older generation, while the narrator's love/disgust relationship with her
symbolized their attitude to their parents?
Ann
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (19 of 51), Read 44 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Saturday, April 17, 1999 10:19 AM
Let me get this straight. A sensitive young boy has an affair with an older woman
who has a sordid past in the concentration camps. Does William Styron get
royalties on this? Or would they have had to call it Hanna's Choice?
Actually, I'm stuck on page 60 trying to get interested in sensitive young boys
coming to terms with their sexuality and wondering how "coming to terms with
your sexuality" differs from "getting lucky". Back to Mickey Spillane.
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (20 of 51), Read 41 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Saturday, April 17, 1999 04:24 PM
I realized Hana was illiterate when she slapped Michael. She could not admit her
inability to read it, so she acted as if it never existed. That really spooked me.
The OPRAH audience, as a whole, was aghast about the age difference and the
affair. It was almost all they could talk about, and those who hated the book
blamed this aspect of it. Schlink was amazed--he never got that response
anywhere in Europe, where folks seem less tortured by sex and age differences.
And he did use this age difference as a metaphor for the generational gap; if
Michael was to begin questioning his parents' role in the holocaust, then Hana
had to trigger that by being a part of it, his catalyst.
We've never had to reconcile, as a generation, the errors of our parents'
generation. This part of the book held me for a long time. It's easy to sit in
judgment, but how do you come to terms with such atrocities? How do you--or DO
you-- rationalize the behavior?
Anne
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (21 of 51), Read 38 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, April 17, 1999 04:24 PM
Well, I figured males would react differently to the sex than I did, Jim, so thanks
for posting. In THE SUMMER OF 42 even I thought the kid kid got lucky. How
many guys ever get a shot at Jennifer O'Neill? A once in a lifetime opportunity, no
doubt, even if it did arrive prematurely.
Of course, if the main character were a 15 year old girl with a much older man,
how would reactions differ?
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (22 of 51), Read 43 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@jeffco.k12.co.us)
Date:
Saturday, April 17, 1999 09:29 PM
When we are talking about Hannah and the church scene, I keep thinking about
that rule of inertia in physics that states, "Bodies that are in motion tend to stay
in motion and bodies that are at rest tend to stay at rest". I am paraphrasing
here. Anyway, I always think of that when I think of the guards at concentration
camp. It must have been much easier to go along with the crowd and do nothing
than to start moving and act. It is very existential as well.
I understood that Hannah couldn't read when the narrator was talking about the
note during the bicycle trip.
Jane
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (23 of 51), Read 44 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Barbara Moors (ncsh82b@prodigy.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 18, 1999 09:24 AM
Wouldn't it be wonderful to have the power that Oprah has, choose a book and
be able to bring the author to the discussion? Do I understand correctly, Anne,
that Schlink was there for the program?
Ann, I've been thinking a lot in the past day about my feelings about the
relationship between Hanna and Michael, in terms of the age issue. I don't think
it bothers me (even if it had been a young girl and an older man) because it is so
incredibly common. American culture has spent a lot of time in the past 20 years
trying to draw these lines concerning what will be allowed. However, I don't think
the new laws have impacted actual occurrence much. Does that make sense? I
don't think that this kind of relationship is necessarily a good thing or a bad
thing. I don't think I'd want it for either of my sons. And, I certainly believe in
laws concerning it for young children. But, among adolescents, I don't think it is as
simple an issue.
And, associated with that, the one part I wasn't sure I "bought" was how
obsessional Michael became about his relationship with Hanna after she left and
the implication that he could never have a successful relationship with anyone
else because of it. The daughter from the concentration camp implied that this
was all due to his relationship with an older woman as a teenager. I have a hard
time accepting that given all of the other normalcy in Michael's life. And, I also
wondered if it had to do with Hanna as a symbol for the older generation of
Germans, that what they had done handicapped the younger generation
emotionally. What did the rest of you think?
Barb
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (24 of 51), Read 44 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Barbara Moors (ncsh82b@prodigy.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 18, 1999 09:28 AM
Jim,
You should have payed attention to the SPOILER ALERTS. Knowing the ending
takes away part of the impact of the book. I agree with you that this topic has
been done before at a couple of different levels. However, I think Schlink brings a
new twist to it. Come back and tell me if you think I'm all wet if you make it to
the end.
Barb
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (25 of 51), Read 49 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 18, 1999 10:02 AM
Barb, If it hadn't been for the Spoilers, I would never have gotten to page 100. At
this point I really dislike the narrator. We'll see what happens next.
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (26 of 51), Read 50 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 18, 1999 11:01 AM
It's a strange little book, but I had no trouble keeping interested. I kept
wondering how he was going to tie all this together, and it seems to me he didn't.
It stubbornly remains tripartite.
It's obvious why Michael is unable to achieve a healthy relationship with a woman.
In fact, it may be TOO obvious. But the other connections were tenuous for me.
And I never understood why Michael would send those tapes to Hanna.
Ruth
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (27 of 51), Read 37 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 18, 1999 09:08 PM
Guilt, Ruth -- the gift that keeps on giving.
Ann
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (28 of 51), Read 38 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Monday, April 19, 1999 01:00 AM
Ann, what do you think his guilt towards Hanna was? Not telling the judge that she
was illiterate? But didn't the author make quite a case of the fact that if Hanna
had wanted the judge to know, she would have told him?
Ruth
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (29 of 51), Read 35 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, April 19, 1999 08:52 AM
Well, it didn't make a lot of sense to me, Ruth, but the author says several times
that Michael felt he had "betrayed" Hana. He felt a sense of betrayal that he
didn't tell his friends about her (which seemed like the smart thing to me), and
he felt that he betrayed her by not acknowledging her at the swimming pool right
before she skipped town.
I don't know about the incident with the judge. I thought Michael's father made a
good point that it was wrong to do something for someone that they didn't want,
just because you felt you knew better. Michael obviously felt conflicted about this,
since he never revealed her secret, but I could see how he might feel responsible
that she was locked away for 18 years, while others got off much easier.
Ann
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (30 of 51), Read 37 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Monday, April 19, 1999 08:02 PM
Ruth,
I wonder if the guilt Michael felt toward Hanna mirrored the guilt he/his
generation felt toward their parents generation regarding war crimes. Is it a
survivor's guilt or something more ambiguous? If he felt guilty about her
illiteracy, he could not have prevented it nor corrected it. He could only feel badly
about it and wish it weren't so...
Anne
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (31 of 51), Read 41 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@jeffco.k12.co.us)
Date:
Monday, April 19, 1999 08:22 PM
Anne, Ann, Ruth and all,
If Michael felt guilty for not acknowledging Hanna at the swimming pool and for
not telling the judge about Hanna's illiteracy, imagine the guilt that he felt at the
end. Anne, I think that you are right that it mirrors the guilt of the father's
generation. Just last night on the History Channel, they were showing actual films
of people who lived near the concentration camps being forced to visit the camps
when they were liberated. This was an order made by General Eisenhower. He
wanted the local people to know exactly what they had been ignoring all of those
years.
Jane
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (32 of 51), Read 42 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, April 19, 1999 10:09 PM
I agree that the author wanted Hana to stand for the older generation, but that
strikes me as an unfair analogy. How about the rest of you?
Ann
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (33 of 51), Read 41 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Katie Kleczka (knp@execpc.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 05:55 AM
Ann,
What do you mean by an "unfair analogy"? I started to think about this in several
ways, and so I just want to get a better sense of what you meant by the question.
:)
Katie
"Everything in moderation, EXCEPT for reading."
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (34 of 51), Read 39 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 10:26 AM
I'm in the home stretch of reading THE READER, and so far, for me, it's one of
those rare novels (like Josephine Hart's DAMAGE) that's as immediate and
inevitable as a dream...or nightmare. One of my many soapboxes (as those
posting here for a while know) is the concept of "authority of narrative," author
being the root word of authority, and I think the voice that Schlink creates on the
page has that quality in spades.
I didn't see the Oprah interview, but on hearing it described I'm disappointed that
so many in the audience fixated on the improper sexual relationship at the
expense of so many profound, life/death questions that the book raises. I
wonder if shifting the focus to Hanna and Michael in bed is a sort of defense
mechanism--though maybe not at a conscious level--for avoiding the more
significant and troubling subject matter that comes afterward? To me, the
moral/ethical issues of THE READER are like an infinite hall of mirrors, created to
defy any easy answers or categorizations.
I think we all have a tremendous psychological stake in believing that we are at
heart good and moral people who could never be capable of the kinds of acts we
see again and again in human history. But hindsight is a different world...I ran
across a quote last week (from G.B. Shaw, maybe?) that said, "Custom can inure
us to any atrocity," and I think there's a lot of truth there.
I know for a fact that I am a well-intentioned, generally thoughtful, humane
person in most circumstances. But when it comes down to the crunch of sacrificing
my own life or well-being for another person--particularly someone who is a
stranger to me--my lesser experiences in that realm (particularly when I was
drafted into the totalitarian regime known as the Army) certainly don't bode well
for any hope of Dale as hero.
Fortunately, that type of decision is something the vast majority of us in our
civilized and relatively peaceful society will never have to make, though we read,
with equal parts fascination and horror, of entire races or populations throughout
the world who have to make those fatal choices on a daily basis, sometimes for
years or decades at a stretch, and find it totally incomprehensible.
And while there's no excusing evil or brutality, I think that if we polarize ourselves
in that regard we become blinded to all that we can learn about human nature,
including our own, by minutely examining the gray areas of the factual evidence.
Some philosopher said "Nothing human can be alien to me," and another
observed that "No human behavior has a single motivation." Put those two
together, and any shying away from the troubling issues of THE READER is a
disservice both to ourselves and others.
Whew. End of speech. Opposing viewpoints welcomed...
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (35 of 51), Read 40 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 12:01 PM
Good speech, Dale. I've long ago come to the conclusion that I don't know what
I'm capable of at either end of the spectrum. Neither, I suspect, do the rest of
us. Ay, there's the rub. And then there's the question of how much any single
person is to blame for a society gone wrong.
Schlink has bitten off a handful (or should I say mouthful) here.
Ruth
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (36 of 51), Read 38 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Barbara Moors (ncsh82b@prodigy.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 04:57 PM
Ruth, when you said that you didn't think that the book came together in the
end, do you think it was because Schlink couldn't unite the message that he was
trying to deliver and the novel he was writing? That was my impression. During
the last half of the book, I was too often aware of the author talking to me,
standing off from the story. However, apart from that criticism, I'm glad I read it.
It's made me do a lot of thinking and it was enough of a good story to make me
finish it in 24 hours.
Jim, have you finished yet or did you give up?
Dale, I absolutely agree with you. In my early 20's, I was so sure of what I would
do in these kinds of situations. The older I get, the less sure I am of anything,
particularly of how I would react when my own well-being is in jeopardy.
Barb
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (37 of 51), Read 42 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 06:09 PM
Katie,
Let me try again to explain what I meant by "unfair analogy." It seemed to me
(and I could be wrong) that the author was making Hanna a symbol of the World
War II generation of Germans who made Hitler's atrocities possible. (See
especially Part Three, Chapter I). Michael's feelings towards her were very
conflicted, just as the post-war generation had a serious problems dealing with
their parents' responsibility for Nazi crimes. He says (p. 157, Book 2, Chapter 15)
that he both wanted to understand Hanna and wanted to condemn her, but it was
impossible to do both. Later (p. 170), he says that he had to point the finger of
guilt at Hanna, "But the finger I pointed at her turned back to me. I had loved
her." He ties his feelings for Hanna to his generations' attitude towards their
parents: "How could it be a comfort that the pain I went through because of my
love for Hanna was, in a way, the fate of my generation, a German fate, and that
it was only more difficult for me to evade, more difficult for me to manage than
for others."(p. 171)
My problem with this is that I consider Hanna much worse than the average
citizen in Nazi Germany who preferred to look the other way, rather than take an
active role in the Nazi crimes. She was, after all, a guard in a slave labor camp. I
seem to be in a minority here, but I also think that her love affair with a 15 year
old boy was immoral.
So Katie, do you agree that the author intended this symbolism? And, if so, do
you think it is a fair analogy?
I think a book which explores this issue of the collective German responsibility for
Nazi crimes is Ursula Hegi's STONES FROM THE RIVER. It gives you a real
understanding of how ordinary people chose to close their eyes to what was
happening or made small compromises which, multiplied by thousands,
eventually allowed the Nazis to assume complete control.
Dale,I am not surprised the Oprah's audience chose to focus on the sex issue.
Recently she has concentrated on the self-improvement theme, but her shows
used to bear a much closer resemblance to those of Jenny Jones or Jerry
Springer. One thing the audiences of all these shows have in common is the
desire to be titillated by and simultaneously condemn sexual behavior. They
seem to have this overwhelming need to feel superior to someone, no matter
how low on the scale of humanity that person is. Hey, I may have my faults, but
at least I am not having a lesbian relationship with my son's wife.
Topic:
Re: THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (38 of 51), Read 46 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 06:38 PM
Ann: I agree, I don't think Hanna's experience was typical for Germans of that
era, though maybe a common one in the camps themselves.
I saw a piece on the History Channel recently about the last days of the Nazis and
one of the people interviewed was the son of General Rommel. He said, very
thoughtfully but without obvious emotion, that he was grateful to the Allies for
defeating Hitler, even though it meant his father's downfall, because "otherwise,
there would have been no stopping them. They would have taken over the world."
Also, it's not that I approve of Hanna's affair with a teenager--it strikes me as at
least irresponsible, and quite possibly immoral depending on the standards one
applies. It's just that among other transgressions in the novel, that one pales in
comparison.
I think you hit the nail on the head, about people's "overwhelming need to feel
superior to someone else" that fuels the so-called talk shows, and much political
correctness in general. Very human, but very sad.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (39 of 51), Read 46 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 06:40 PM
Dale, wonderful post. I was thinking along very similar lines (maybe that's why I
liked your post so much {G}). Oprah's audience getting stuck on the sexual
issues seems very American and PC to me. It keeps them from thinking about
the larger issues. One of which is: how can I possibly identify with a guard in a
concentration camp? Aren't all those people, evil, evil, evil? I identified with
Hanna very much. I tried to imagine why she would be drawn to a young boy. In
some of the early dialogue it seemed that she thought he was a college kid first,
which I doesn't suppose is much of an excuse since she didn't end the affair
when she found out his age. She probably didn't dare have a relationship with
someone her own age, with someone who would make demands and want
explanations. The kid (I can't think of his real name) was malleable. He would
take the blame for any fight or disagreement. She was able to have someone to
love (and someone to read to her) who was totally innocent of what she herself
was guilty of. She did not want to be reminded in any way of what she did. But of
course that wasn't possible, and when the time came for taking responsibility--the
trial--she took more than her share. She wanted punishment, atonement. There
was a kind of pride in taking total responsibility and not using the excuse of her
illiteracy to soften the blow.
Now the big question: VERY LARGE SPOILER
Why do you think she killed herself? My theory is that the atonement didn't work.
Eighteen years of punishment still did not allow her to be free of her guilt.
Sherry
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (40 of 51), Read 48 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Katie Kleczka (knp@execpc.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 07:12 PM
Thank you for the clarification, Ann. I wanted to respond but was afraid of not
addressing the question as you stated it. :)
Ann, I agree that the analogy which portrays Hanna as a symbol of the collective
guilt of the German people was intended and is indeed inadequate. It cannot
possibly address the wide range of behaviours that were prevalent across many
peoples during that time. But if the purpose of the analogy is to bring attention
to the interaction of the wartime generation and the the post-war generation in
terms of such elements as guilt, blame, shame and forgiveness, then I think that
the analogy is very effective. It makes you look hard at the questions raised, and
that is the success of the analogy.
I am unable to call immoral the relationship between Hanna and Michael, but do
feel it to be both irresponsible and misguided. I would have to apply standards
that I am not sure that, personally, I believe in. However, note that I in no way
question or judge your feelings on this issue.
MAJOR SPOILER ALERT
Having participated in a discussion of The Reader elsewhere, as well, the question
of Hanna's suicide has come up before. Although I did not see the Oprah
segment with Schlink, I have been told that he felt "the movement of Hanna's
life was toward 'withdrawal' and killing herself was the final 'withdrawal'. (1)
This was my response to that statement:
"How very interesting. This may be precisely what made her suicide seem
so totally removed from the story, so incongruous with what was
happening. I very much viewed her time in prison, actually, as an
opening up of her life. She was well-liked at the prison and formed
relationships of a sort with those around her. She learned how to
read. She became a "social" creature. I was totally shocked by her
last act. Schlink's statement of "final withdrawal" just doesn't gel
for me, but at least knowing the author's take on the ending does away
with the confusion: he and I were imposing two totally different
mindsets on her.
I would have been more accepting of Schlink's mode of closure in The
Reader if she had chosen to end her life in a response to overwhelming
guilt, or even an inability to face life outside of prison after being
institutionalized for so many years. However, for me, the "withdrawal"
idea just doesn't have validity."
(1) From a participant in a discussion elsewhere of The Reader.
Katie
"Everything in moderation, EXCEPT for reading."
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (41 of 51), Read 40 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 09:45 PM
Sherry,
In her relationship with the young boy, whom she never called by name, I saw
Hanna strictly as a user. There were no signs that she cared for the "kid" as an
individual. Be that as it may, Schlink did make me identify with her later in the
story. During the church fire, her reaction of standing by and letting events take
their course is a very human one. Although I like to think I could never do that,
as many people have said here, we never know what we would do when faced with
a true moral crisis until it happens. There have been many times in my own life
when I know I should have done or said something, and I took the easy way out
by letting the moment pass.
Well, said, Katie, and don't ever worry about offending me by disagreeing with
me. I love a good discussion.
I don't think Hanna was trying to atone for her sins by failing to adequately
defend herself at the trial. This was due to her shame about her illiteracy. (Think
what awful learning disabilities she must have had to be so interested in books
and unable to read them for so many years.) But the fact that she ordered all
those books about the Holocaust in prison showed that she learned to accept the
responsibility and guilt. SPOILER ALERT Did she kill herself because of this guilt?
I don't think so. I understand what the author meant about her increasing
withdrawal. One sign of this was the fact that in her final years she completely let
herself go, becoming fat and dirty. She also stopped associating with the other
prisoners. For someone so isolated from the normal world, life outside of prison
would have been torture.
Here's a question of everyone -- should Michael have written to her along with the
tapes? The matron told him how much it would have meant to her. Why didn't
he?
Ann
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (42 of 51), Read 34 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 12:49 AM
I MUST talk here -- I have read this thread though not the book -- not yet. It is
going to be here tomorrow when Jim arrives back from the US business trip. I
believe he will have finished it by then and I plan to talk with him about some of
the points raised here and get his reactions/responses and post them. I know my
own reading may well be 'tainted' having read the discussion ahead of time but I
think it will also be of interest to see what I find in this complicated story having
some prior input.
Having said all of that -- I wouldn't be talking about the book itself except for the
mention of Hegi's Stones From The River -- I had been waiting for that to surface
in this thread and had already thought of the comparisons which could be made
between these two. Hegi's book was powerful and also raised the issue of what
would we REALLY do under such circumstances. I think there was some consensus
that given the fact that no one person has lived the exact life that another person
has lived -- judgement of the behavior becomes pretty much impossible. Even
two siblings raised in one house by the same set of parents will have individual
views of incidents in their lives which were shared -- the reaction/response of
these individuals will be different in the same way.
Can hardly wait to get this book in my hands and like several of you, I am certain
it will be a single gulp -- or very close to it.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (43 of 51), Read 25 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 07:51 AM
Ann,
I don't think we can know whether Hanna cared for "the kid" or not. All we have to
go on is what the kid himself said and felt. We really know very little to nothing of
what Hanna was thinking or feeling. I admit that I projected a lot of what I might
feel into what I thought Hanna might feel. But since we weren't given anything to
go on, I think that is only natural. Since you have boys of that age, I can
understand your being so upset with this aspect of the story.
Regarding the issue of whether she allowed herself to be the main one to blame;
I think she was feeling guilty and wanted atonement. Remember she gave (I'm
forgetting what) something of value to the daughter and survivor of the fire? I
don't think it was a simple as not wanting anyone to know about her illiteracy. I
think it was a mixture of fear, guilt, shame and misplaced pride.
Sherry
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (44 of 51), Read 28 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 09:10 AM
Sherry & All: I'm not to the end of THE READER yet, but like some others here I'm
finding the final third of the book to be very different in tone from the first two
sections: a kind of distant paraphrasing of events in Michael's life, more about
ideas than emotions, and somewhat of a letdown from the intensity that went
before.
But one paragraph in this section really grabbed me:
***
I wanted simultaneously to understand Hanna's crime and to condemn it. But it
was too terrible for that. When I tried to understand it, I had the feeling I was
failing to condemn it as it must be condemned. When I condemned it as it must
be condemned, there was no room for understanding. But even as I wanted to
understand Hanna, failing to understand her meant betraying her all over again.
I could not resolve this. I wanted to pose myself both tasks--understanding and
condemnation. But it was impossible to do both.
***
I suspect these conflicting motivations are why people react as they do upon
hearing of any tragedy, such as the school killings of yesterday, and why
something about the tone of most people interviewed on the news after such
events makes me kind of angry, deep down.
It's easy to say, "Oh, my, how can something like this happen?" but I think this
type of response is nearly always rhetorical, which to me makes the questioner
either hypocritical or disingenuous or both. Because when somebody starts trying
to explain to them some of the influences that may have brought the atrocity
about, they quickly become indignant and accuse the other person of trying to
"excuse" or "explain away" what is a blatantly indefensible act. The more we
understand, the harder it is to totally condemn the offender (as opposed to
condemning the act), and I believe many people see it is a slippery slope leading
to chaos.
I believe that's one reason that fiction writers like Bernhard Schlink, Russell
Banks, Larry Watson, Pete Dexter, and others strike such a chord with us,
because they create a landscape where things have reasons--as opposed to
excuses--for happening, reasons that are based in human (and therefore our
own) nature. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but maybe easier to do so in an
"imaginary" world.
>>Dale in Ala., who needs more coffee as an anti-rambling medication
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (45 of 51), Read 28 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 09:58 AM
Dale, my friend, you keep on with those caffeine-induced ramblings, okay? I
think you've got a good point comparing this to the shooting tragedy in Denver
yesterday. We can never really know, much less understand, what's in a killer's
heart, or how it got there, or why it made him/her act it out. What we have left
are a bunch of rhetorical questions and finger-pointing, much like at Hanna's
trial.
The guilt is left for the survivors, not the perpetrators. I think Hanna's last act is
not out of guilt or remorse for deeds done, despite her interest in the
Holocaust...I think she was overwhelmed at the thought of having to now DO
something with her life, out of the protective confines of the prison. ***SPOILER
ALERT**** I know we've touched on this in past discussions, but suicide is a
desperate act, the ultimate act of selfishness, and while I expected more from
Hanna, perhaps that was an unfair expectation on my part. I don't think she
could've done anything else.
Anne
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (46 of 51), Read 29 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 10:42 AM
Anne, I agree with you on why Hanna committed suicide. It's the ultimate excuse
for not having to do anything.
And Dale, two minutes after writing on the Denver shooting thread and posing
one of those rhetorical questions you mentioned, I come here and read your
comments. Took me aback and made me think. Thanks.
Ruth
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (47 of 51), Read 18 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 05:22 PM
Dale,
Very perceptive comments as usual.
Sherry, I agree that Hanna felt guilt at the end, just not at the trial. Sorry is I
didn't make that clear -- if it makes any difference.
Anne, in what way was Hanna's suicide selfish? Who did it hurt? The prison
warden, maybe, but I don't think she had any real obligation to her. I suspect
"the reader" was relieved.
Ann
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (48 of 51), Read 18 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 06:12 PM
Ann,
I regard suicide as the ultimate act of selfishness. It's an incredibly ego-centric
act. There's no regard to anyone else's feelings, no attempt to change...It's a
response to a pain so deep within the soul that the victim feels there's no way out
but death. So it's selfish. Or self-centered, if you will. That's all.
And with thoughts toward the Denver shootings, the suicides really tick me off
because these selfish kids will never have to account for themselves and for why
they committed such carnage. (okay, I'll try to save it for the Salon...)
Anne
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (49 of 51), Read 15 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@jeffco.k12.co.us)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 08:55 PM
I have enjoyed reading this discussion. I know that the counselors at school have
always told us that suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness. It is a way to get
back at someone or, in the case of the Columbine shootings, everyone. I had the
feeling that when Michael finally came to visit Hanna in the prison, she was
expecting more from him. She seemed disappointed in his response to her, and
from that point on, I expected her suicide. She was getting back at Michael for
not really being there for her. Yes, he did make the tapes and he was trying to
help her start a new life, but I think that she expected more.
Jane
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (50 of 51), Read 13 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 09:39 PM
Jane, what do you think there was about either Michael or Michael and Hanna's
relationship that might have led Hanna to expect more? How could Hanna have
felt he owed her anything?
I know that Michael seemed wracked with inexplicable guilt, but that was his take
on things. I don't remember if we had an indication that Hanna felt he owed her
something.
Ruth
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (51 of 51), Read 12 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, April 21, 1999 10:50 PM
Anne,
I feel angry too that the kids who killed their classmates "escaped" retribution by
killing themselves. I don't know what happened there -- it is so far outside the
realm of my experience, I can't fathom that kind of behavior. My guess is that
they were playing out some kind of sick game and that deep down they didn't
comprehend that it was all permanent, including their own exit.
However, I feel differently about suicides in general. I have a very deep
sympathy for any family member whose relative has committed suicide. They
suffer a terrible burden. However, I think that in the vast majority of cases,
suicides are not trying to punish someone, but only attempting to end their own
unendurable pain. Of course, they are self-centered; people who are suicidally
depressed are not able to relate to anything outside of themselves. It is part of
their illness. That doesn't mean we should blame them.
I am probably in the minority here, but I thought that if Hanna chose to end her
life, that was her right. Because you are a medical professional, I can understand
that you look at this very differently.
Ann
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Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (52 of 85), Read 92 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Mary Anne Papale (fdlx59b@prodigy.com)
Date:
Thursday, April 22, 1999 07:28 AM
All,
I was discussing this book with my husband, who has just started it, and I was
startled to be reminded of something that had slipped my memory. And I don't
think it was discussed here. It occurs when the young Michael is so obsessed with
Hanna, that he gets on her bus, and she ignores him. He is devastated by her
betrayal. But I think that this had slipped my mind because it didn't seem all that
important at the time. Just one of life's disappointments. But now...
I am struck by the fact that Schlink has laid out a spectrum of betrayals for us.
There's the little every day slights that we are probably all capable of, all the way
to the hideous betrayal, for which Hanna is responsible. I think it is too narrow a
focus to say this book is about the collective guilt of the German people, but
rather all people, regarding all things -- not just the Holocaust. Knowing that as a
human, I would fall somewhere on that scale of betrayal, even though I would
hope that my guilt might be for some minor thing, the finger of shame could still
point back at me, the reader. And yes, I think there could be a dual reason for
Schlink's choice of the title.
MAP
Post New Topic | Reply to: "THE READER by Bernhard Schlink"
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (53 of 85), Read 91 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, April 22, 1999 07:07 AM
I'm lagging a bit behind on The Reader, having just finished part one which
concludes with the break-up of Michael and Hanna.
At this point, Michael certainly feels guilty about causing the break-up by his
betrayal, his inability to acknowledge his relationship with Hanna to others. What
I can't judge yet is whether this betrayal was Hanna's reason for splitting, or if
she was actually making a very loving, caring decision by ending a relationship
that she felt would lead nowhere and letting Michael get on with his life.
Hanna seems to be seeking power and control throughout the first part of the
book. She is capable of loving actions, but generally seems to be seeking first
her own fulfillment. Michael, at fifteen, is still molding.
It all seems very complex, and it's hard to pinpoint exact motivation or types. A
lot like real life, I guess.
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (54 of 85), Read 98 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, April 22, 1999 09:01 AM
Jane & All: I don't think Hanna necessarily felt that Michael "owed" her anything
after prison, but it's clear that she expected a lot more than she got. As
withdrawn as Hanna was, the only evidence of this is in a very brief scene (Page
196 in my paperback) when he meets her in the prison garden the day before
her release...
***
Her hands lay in her lap holding a book. She wasn't reading it. Over the top of
her half-glasses, she was watching a woman throwing bread crumbs to a couple of
sparrows. Then she realized that she was being watched, and turned her face to
me.
I saw the expectation in her face, saw it light up with joy when she recognized
me, watched her eyes scan my face as I approached, saw them seek, inquire,
then look uncertain and hurt, and saw the light go out of her face. When I
reached her, she smiled a friendly, weary smile. "You've grown up, kid." I sat
down beside her and she took my hand.
***
She may not have been expecting him to run into her arms and whisk her away
to live happily ever after, but I don't think a little emotion and display of
affection would have killed "the kid" or gotten her hopes up unfairly. Instead he
reacts with formal politeness...and as most people who have been through a
broken relationship know, that can hurt far worse than anger or abandonment...a
sort of "so near, and yet so far" syndrome.
I don't recall any place in the book where Hanna mentions a boyfriend, an
ex-husband, or for that matter any friends at all. As problematic and
manipulative as her relationship with Michael was, it was probably the closest
thing to normalcy she'd ever had. And his faithful sending of the audiotapes
would lead any reasonable person, I believe, to expect involvement with him at
some level after being released from jail.
Do you think his relative coolness toward her was an unselfish case of not wanting
to raise unreasonable expectations in her, or just a cop-out of being afraid to be
in her life again?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (55 of 85), Read 102 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Mary Anne Papale (fdlx59b@prodigy.com)
Date:
Thursday, April 22, 1999 10:35 AM
Dale, I see Michael's behavior when visiting Hanna as just another form of
betrayal. Not as bad as her betrayal of the women prisoners, but it certainly took
the life out of Hanna.
MAP
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (56 of 85), Read 53 times
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From:
Barbara Moors (ncsh82b@prodigy.com)
Date:
Thursday, April 22, 1999 04:57 PM
I believe that the prison warden said that Hanna had no one outside the prison
except Michael. No one had written or communicated with her, no friends, no
family. The warden was worried about her release because she had spent such a
long time in prison and had no one for support in the transition. Looking back,
that was probably a foreshadowing. Michael couldn't overcome his protective shell
that he'd build to truly make contact with her. I think that withdrawal and,
ultimately, suicide was the only logical response from Hanna's mindset.
I often think that suicide is a selfish act, but, in this case, I don't. She had no
one to mourn her except the warden and Michael.
There was hope in her efforts to learn to read. However, what she learned from
her reading probably made thoughts of life outside the protected prison
environment untenable, particularly when she would be so alone.
Barb
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (57 of 85), Read 55 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, April 22, 1999 05:24 PM
Barb: I hadn't thought of Hanna's fate in quite those terms, but it makes a lot of
sense. How ironic, that the reading which was her salvation during the very worst
times ended up by giving her such a vision of life's possibilities she knew she
could never have, and as a result she just gave up on life.
>>Dale in Ala.
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (58 of 85), Read 63 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Thursday, April 22, 1999 06:09 PM
Dale, remember that a large part of Hanna's reading material was about the Nazi
camps, etc. Maybe her reading not only gave her a sense of life's possibilities,
but also made her aware of the enormity of what she had done.
Ruth
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (59 of 85), Read 66 times
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From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@jeffco.k12.co.us)
Date:
Thursday, April 22, 1999 08:28 PM
Ruth,
I was going to answer your post, but Dale has done all of the work for me.
Mary Anne, you mentioned the scene when Michael tried to surprise Hanna on the
tramway. Her explanation of this meeting was that Hanna thought that Michael
was trying to ignore her, because he got into the back of the tramway without
acknowledging her.
Jane
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (60 of 85), Read 65 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Thursday, April 22, 1999 10:44 PM
Jane, now that you mention that tramway scene, doesn't it strike you as
completely adolescent, just the sort of thing two teenagers would do? Of course,
Michael was a teenager. But Hanna was not. Or was she actually emotionally a
teenager? Could this have been one of the reasons she was attracted to Michael,
because she could only relate at this level?
On another tack, I don't remember the author's ever giving an explanation as to
why Hanna was illiterate. We are told nothing of her background. Do any of you
have any thoughts as to why this is?
Ruth
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (61 of 85), Read 63 times
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From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, April 23, 1999 02:07 AM
RUTH
My guess is that Hana is just plain dumb. The Nazis never picked guards for their
intellect. I also doubt if their was an IQ test for street car conductors.
Having a fling with the kid; maybe she doesn't have a lot of opportunities. And
why not? Intellectual equals or close to it. But then he will grow up and she won't.
At least not by much.
EDD
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (62 of 85), Read 57 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, April 23, 1999 09:32 AM
Ruth & All: Good point, that Hanna's reading about the camps showed her the
magnitude of what she and so many others had done in the name of "following
orders." That, plus the novels about normal people leading adventurous lives,
must have been a double wallop for her emotionally.
MAP: I agree that Michael's coolness toward Hanna at the end was a betrayal,
particularly from her point of view. But throughout the book he seems like a
basically good person, pretty self-aware, and not gratuitously cruel except for his
relationship with the girl in the short period of time after Hanna left, and which
made him feel guilty.
But I don't think any of us do anything without some justification in our mind at
the time, whether accurate or not. How do you think Michael justified, to himself,
his behavior in the prison garden?
Also...I'd forgotten that both of them judged the hurtful tram scene from
different angles--he thought she was snubbing him, and vice versa. Juvenile
though it might be, it's something I don't believe most of us ever truly outgrow.
It's frightening to think of how many friendships, marriages, careers, etc. break
up because of some mutual misunderstanding--which seems trivial in hindsight,
but escalates until the damage is irreparable.
>>Dale in Ala.
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (63 of 85), Read 43 times
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From:
Anne Wilfong (annewilfong@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Friday, April 23, 1999 09:13 PM
Ann,
Getting back to the issue of suicide (I've been off line for a day or two & have
some catching up to do!)...I DO agree with you wholeheartedly about an
individual's right to suicide, whether by his own hand or through the help of a
physician. Self-inflicted suicide does involve, most often, a depressed person.
And what a deeply personal choice, no matter how the decision is brought about.
And, yes, the families do suffer so much.
I didn't want to sound cold or clinical about this issue. I have alot of compassion
for people who must really agonize over their lives, their pain that they feel no
one else can (or should have to) understand.
Maybe it's more the "murder-suicide" issue I'm struggling with.
Anne, happy the snow stopped at 28 inches...
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (64 of 85), Read 45 times
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, April 23, 1999 11:25 PM
Anne,
It seems we are pretty much in agreement after all.
Ann
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (65 of 85), Read 38 times
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From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, April 23, 1999 09:17 PM
What I found most interesting in The Reader was the calm, detached, almost
numb tone of the narration. Even when describing love-making, the colors that
came to my mind were warm, solid, neutral, rather than passionate and
uncontrolled.
Mention was made of the numbness of concentration camp survivors, as well as
of the perpetrators of the crimes. Michael slipped into this numbness when his
relationship with Hanna ended, and never seemed able to escape it.
The tapes were merely therapeutic for him, but they seemed to be a release for
Hanna. She may have thought that she was still loved, that she hadn't totally
ruined Michael's life. But while she was able to overcome her emotional blocks
and become literate, Michael was never able to.
That seems to be when Hanna became despondent. When they met in the prison
yard, this was confirmed.
Hanna never seemed to be able to understand the consequences of her actions
outside of her own inner world. But, in that chamber, I think she had
extraordinary insight and sensitivity. She may not have been able to comprehend
the suffering of hundreds of strangers, but could not bear the thought that she
had so badly hurt the one person she truly loved.
Michael's betrayals, his real or perceived slights and refusal to acknowledge her,
crushed Hanna. But the final blow was the realization that she had helped to
create a man who was capable of such betrayal.
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (66 of 85), Read 45 times
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From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Saturday, April 24, 1999 01:42 AM
I have only begun the book -- but I have read this thread as it developed and I
HAVE to say to your note -- you say she didn't recognize the suffering of
hundreds of strangers but couldn't bear the thought of having hurt the one
person she loved -- and the final blow was that she realized she had helped to
create a man who was capable of such betrayal -- do you think it is possible that
she saw him as capable of being a person who could be blind to hundreds of
people being slaughtered ? Do you think she equated what she felt as his
withdrawal and coldness and betrayal with the coldness and betrayal of humanity
in general which she had learned of in her reading about the events in which she
herself had been embroiled? Do you think the suicide may have been for her own
guilt in the burning building and the overall work she had done guarding the
prisoners AND for her guilt in creating another UNCARING or INHUMANE human
being (Michael)?
Don't know what I will think once I have finished the book but this was my
immediate connection with your analysis!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (67 of 85), Read 45 times
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From:
Barbara Moors (ncsh82b@prodigy.com)
Date:
Saturday, April 24, 1999 08:59 AM
David,
I hope you're planning on staying around Constant Reader and Classics Corner
for a good long time. I am enjoying your take on the books I'm reading with you.
Michael's numbness equated with Hanna's and both of them with the whole
German Nazi era attitude is on target from my perception and I didn't think of it.
I don't think I agree about your final statement though. I still think that she
simply saw that, in the end, the younger German could not reach beyond the gap
of her behavior. And, he was her only connection with the world.
Also, when you think of it, be sure and reply to the last note on the thread. I
almost missed your note because I was scrolling down the notes and not looking
back at the left side of the screen.
Barb
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (68 of 85), Read 35 times
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From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, April 24, 1999 08:05 PM
Dottie: Hanna's suicide may have been the result of many factors; I simply think
the final straw was Michael's inability to provide the emotional warmth and
acceptance she could get nowhere else and her own belief that her desertion of
him had helped make him that kind of person. At least, that is what the timing of
the suicide suggests to me, coming the very day before a release from prison
which she herself had been seeking.
That she put more stock in one person she loved than the lives of a hundred
people to whom she had no attachment is tragic, but this is a guilt based on
subjective emotion, not on mere numbers.
Barb: Thanks for the kind words and the reminder. I'm finding CR a wonderful
place for thoughtful discussion where I can learn from others instead of just
reading these things in a vacuum.
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (69 of 85), Read 35 times
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From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@jeffco.k12.co.us)
Date:
Saturday, April 24, 1999 09:15 PM
David and all,
I think that Hanna saw that in Michael's eyes she had grown old and unattractive.
That may seem a bit shallow to all of you, but I think that it was important to
Hanna and to most women. She saw in his eyes that she was old and didn't have
much to offer and that she would be a burden to him. That was my impression.
Let me know what you think.
Jane
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (70 of 85), Read 37 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 25, 1999 01:20 AM
I'm curious as to what makes any of you think that Hanna felt guilt for what she
had done to Michael. We are given very few clues as to her character and
background in the book, but it seems to me that during her years in prison, while
he was sending her the tapes, she built up in her mind expectations that had
little to do with reality.
Then when she saw him when he came to visit her, she suddenly realized she was
not going to receive the emotional/psychological support she had imagined.
Couldn't it be possible that she was just frightened, that when push came to
shove she couldn't face being on her own with little or no support from Michael,
and that's why she killed herself?
Ruth
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (71 of 85), Read 37 times
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 25, 1999 01:57 AM
Jane and Ruth,
Good observations. I agree.
Ann
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THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (72 of 85), Read 39 times
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From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 25, 1999 04:21 AM
Jane, Ruth, and Ann -- Good thoughts all -- I have read it finally -- my husband
said I read it in one day just to show him up.
I asked his thoughts after I had finished -- his main response to it was that it
was a story built around Hanna's illiteracy to create a sympathetic character which
would allow one to excuse the behavior of the Germans during the war and the
actions of the Holocaust. The author/story is saying --'see, these were just little
people and some of them were just people with things in their own lives with
which they had to cope and they were following orders, trying to make their way --
none of this was because they were evil' -- kind of an allowance for a group
excuse. I asked some other questions but I won't add anything else here except
that it was interesting to get to talk about this one with my husband.
Here are some of my own thoughts and connections with this story as it unfolded:
Michael's description of his sick room and the unreality of familiar space and so
forth -- I was struck that there is that in the confinement process -- for illness, for
crimes or for whatever reasons in wartimes -- and that prolonged confinement
does lead to this crossover of reality and unreality -- my note to myself begins
"the unreality of reality and the reality of unreality" and goes on "comparative
to/with confinement within a "box" defined by the person or by society;
confinement within one's own mind, ones life/life circumstances,one's own
culture/society, confinement of both thought and body". I was thinking that
individuals are each a 'confined' being within expanding confines. Within each of
these confines there are different influences on that individual's behavior and
where there are overlaps there are also overlapping influences. Michael has been
shaped by his confinement -- Hanna by hers -- though I do agree with those who
have been saying we don't know her -- we don't know anything at all about her --
I think this may have been deliberate in order to give us as readers no outs/no
excuse hooks for Hanna's behavior when it is revealed -- we have to think only of
what MIGHT have been or what WE would do.
In the second part -- I thought about memory -- accurate or influenced or simply
reconstructed? It is the story of history as well. Individuals adapt their behavior to
memories which may or may not be accurate -- build facades -- societies do the
same thing in many ways.
I also think this part is meant to get us into the generational divide -- not only
the one which always exists but this different version which the Germans have
experienced in unique relation to the Holocaust and which the survivors and
children of the survivors and victims have also experienced in a unique fashion.
The things which were done/the things which were experienced are part of the
lives of every individual who participated or experienced these events -- on both
sides -- and are part of the lives of every individual since who hears and sees
and studies or reads of this time. For those of the war generation and the
following generation -- there is a difference in proximity and context. Each
generation down -- there are new influences -- changes in memory/changes in
facades.
Then there is the question of what the events played out in those generation
influence in the lives of the following generation -- how did each person who was
involved pass this along within the family -- within the normal processes of
families?
Another thing which is of interest is the numbness and lack of feeling which
Michael describes -- the psychology of avoidance -- disaffection -- allows one to
do things when staying connected would NOT allow one to do them. Michael's
doing this in order to stay with the trial and study it and so on -- extend this
avoidance/disaffection to Hanna or any participants in the camps -- then ask the
question Hanna asks. Is the author giving readers a window to see where such
things could have been/were behind the actions of many who were involved? And
the 'what would you do?' question is a textbook one for ethics/philosophical and
moral dilemma discussions.
I liked the line in Part Three - Chapter Four -- 'Now escape involves not just
running away, but arriving somewhere.' Individuals escape -- into research like
Michael does, into books?, Hanna escapes into prison (a refuge where she
learned to conquer the problem which caused her so much pain in her life before
prison), --- into drugs, alcohol,
into hate groups (where an individual finds bonds that have been lost in his own
family life or were never there to begin with).
Those are the meat of my response -- I found some of the events less than
complete -- the money and the restitution between Hanna and the
daughter/author of the book. I enjoyed the book but I am not sure it changed or
added to my thinking on the historical events -- I DO think there may be an
underlying implication of 'if we/people do not know how to read -- things can
happen which might otherwise not' -- where are our reading skills as a society
and where are the reading levels of other countries?
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (73 of 85), Read 41 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, April 25, 1999 06:54 AM
David,
Your reason for Hanna's suicide, her understanding of what she had done to
Michael, was the first reaction I had, too. But I think everyone else is also right. I
don't think there can be too many reasons. I mean suicide is a pretty big step.
Maybe any one reason wouldn't have been enough, but all the reasons combined
would make life unbearable. Her fear of being on her own without the emotional
support of Michael, her realization that she was old in his eyes, her withdrawing,
her guilt.
Sherry
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (74 of 85), Read 42 times
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 25, 1999 11:22 AM
Jane: I don't think it's shallow at all to say that Hanna's realization of her age,
physical appearance, and emotional distance from Michael was the impetus for
her taking the final step she did.
Sure, there are her earlier mistakes to deal with--her behavior in the camp, and
her first seduction of "the kid"--but I don't think guilt was foremost in her mind
by the time of her release from prison.
I believe there comes a magnitude of guilt and regret beyond which we can no
longer function without either ending our own life or somehow distancing ourself
emotionally--whether it's the pragmatic realization that what's done is done and
our own internal suffering can't change it, or the route of religious faith with its
message of forgiveness and atonement, that there's no offense beyond the
capacity of a supreme being to erase from our spiritual "record."
I don't know which path of reconciliation Hanna took...maybe some of each...but
I think what was foremost on her mind was, "What now?" She saw the answer,
very understandably, as Michael, and when that fell through she couldn't see any
other avenue for trying to rebuild a normal life.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (75 of 85), Read 40 times
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From:
Elaine Walsh (elainewalsh@usa.net)
Date:
Sunday, April 25, 1999 01:19 PM
I'm hopping into the discussion pretty late, but it's taken me some time to digest
all of these postings at once. I pretty much read this entire discussion in one
sitting.
Dale, I was also struck by the section you quoted from Part 3: "I wanted
simultaneously to understand Hanna crime and to condemn it . . ." I found
myself sympathizing with Hanna, and then feeling guilty for sympathizing with
her, like it was somehow a betrayal on my part to the millions of people who died
in the Holocaust. But if we are to learn from our society's mistakes, then don't we
need to try to understand all perspectives on the situation? Can't I try to
understand, without condoning?
This is also relates back to the Littleton shooting for me, because I am living in
Denver right now. I discussed the tragedy with my third graders, and I was
heartened to see how many expressed a need to forgive the killers, and to try to
understand how they would reach this point. They said that the kids didn't know
how to express their anger, that it was too bad that they couldn't talk to their
parents, and one child said she hoped that God would forgive them. I fear that
many people think this kind of attitude is a betrayal of the victims. I have
sympathy for all sides of this tragedy, and I think that you do need to let go of
the anger eventually in order to move forward. At the same time, I do not want to
appear judgmental towards the families of the victims who are feeling angry right
now. They have every right to be angry, and I of course have no concept
whatsoever of what it is like to be in this position. It is a slippery slope.
Regarding Michael's avoidance: this is part of why I love the first-person
narrative, when done right. It's interesting to think about how the character's own
telling of the story shapes our perceptions of what "really" happened, and how his
narrative voice reveals aspects of his character. The narrative seems so
detached, and void of feeling and imagery. And yet it makes sense in terms of
his character that he would describe the events in this way.
--Elaine in Denver
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (76 of 85), Read 40 times
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 25, 1999 07:05 PM
Dottie,
I enjoyed your note. It was interesting reading your husband's reactions. (I sure
wish I could talk mine into reading one of these books.) I hadn't really thought
about Hanna's illiteracy as a method of gaining the reader's sympathy for her
and those guilty of Nazi crimes. Your husband's approach made me look at the
book in a different way, and I liked that.
Also, I liked the parallel you drew between Michael's confinement and Hanna's,
and the confusion between reality and unreality that can result.
Elaine, do you consider Michael a somewhat unreliable narrator? Generally, I tend
to accept the narrator's interpretation as gospel, but you are right, of course, that
the personality of the character will influence it. It cannot always be identified with
the ideas of the author.
Incidentally, this has been a great book for discussion because the author leaves
so many unanswered questions. Who nominated it?
Ann
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (77 of 85), Read 38 times
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From:
S Thomsen (susant3@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 25, 1999 08:06 PM
Greetings, everyone. Your comments on "The Reader," which I just finished, have
provided me with some great insights as well as wonderful fodder for
discussion--and clarifying my own thoughts. I'm still not sure what I really think
about the novel, which I did find fascinating. It struck me as very European.
There's another book by a German author about people who survived the war in
Germany and are now in exile, and "The Reader" reminded me of that one
(whose name I cannot recall at the moment. Anyone?)
Of course every "reader" (clever title, that one) of any novel brings his own take
and finds his or her own resonances and dissonances. Someone above said that
perhaps we have not had to deal with the errors of our parents' generation, but I
think that white Southerners probably have. I kept being reminded of that--and
of the enormous consequences of action/inaction--in "The Reader." I won't go on
and on about this, but I will say that I was only able to put together what
happened in the South---the lynchings, the violence, the murder, the
African-American struggle for the right to vote (to vote!)--only after reading book
after book after book. Previously I had known scraps of information that were
hard to put together: The horrible history was not considered a topic for polite
conversation. Anyway, I think Shlink's novel, like most good novels, addresses
something universal.
I was irritated by the end, which struck me as a writer's all-powerful
fantasy---having someone learn to read along with tapes you send and then
going on to read your (the author's) work. Gag. A little overworking of the old ego
on Schlink's part. BUT I didn't think that Hanna killed herself because of her
meeting with the narrator. Essentially she went into jail with tenuous ties to the
outside world, and that must have been quite disturbing to ponder when she was
supposed to return. The "kid's" re-appearance may have been a reminder of how
little she had, but that was surely something she knew all along.
Susan
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (78 of 85), Read 34 times
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From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Monday, April 26, 1999 12:01 AM
Obviously a great book for discussion with all kinds of interesting issues. The
nominator should indeed be complimented.
Unfortunately, this one didn't do as much for me as it did for many of the rest of
you. I finally finished but never managed to get in tune with the characters. I
heartily disliked Michael, and Hanna's reformation and suicide seemed unlikely to
me. When you start out on the wrong foot with a book, as I did, it's hard to
recover.
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (79 of 85), Read 35 times
Conf:
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From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, April 26, 1999 12:24 AM
Ann -- I was taken with Jim's response to this one also -- it isn't often I get the
pleasure of finding out what he thinks of a book which we both have read -- he
usually doesn't read the same material I read.
Susan -- Oh, I AM glad that you brought up that remark on our not having had to
deal with our parent's generations mistakes. I wanted to say -- as you did that
yes, we have -- the Civil Rights actions and the need for those goes back and
forward over several generations -- and cast a shadow as far as I can see into
the future. It is one of those things which will continue to be dealt with for the
long haul. The Universal things as you put it -- humanitarian things, spiritual
things, philosophical and religious things.
Jim -- Yes, one can get off on the wrong foot -- but fortunately that is okay, too.
I think the person who suggested this one should be thanked also BUT I have
another suggestion, too. "I" think this would be a PERFECT -- absolutely perfect
-- time to throw in a second book -- A Blessing On The Moon by Skibbell. There
couldn't be a more radically different approach to some of the same subject
matter -- anyone who has read ABOTM want to jump in and make any comment
on it in relationship to the notes here on The Reader? I had not even given this
one thought as I read The Reader and this thread as it was developing but just
now it 'hit' me! Dottie -- waiting to hear from ABOTM readers who also read this
one!
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (80 of 85), Read 36 times
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From:
R Bavetta (rbav@prodigy.com)
Date:
Monday, April 26, 1999 01:03 AM
Dottie, I consider A Blessing on the Moon a far better book, certainly in terms of
the writing. I was quite enchanted by it. The Reader, while provocative, never came
together for me. The three parts were too disassociated with one another, the
characters, especially Hanna, were too sketchily drawn, the character's motives
too unsupported.
That said, however, I'm not sure I see what these books have in common except
that they both deal with the Holocaust. It may be that ABOTM has faded too
much from my memory.
Ruth
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (81 of 85), Read 29 times
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, April 26, 1999 06:45 AM
Gail recommended THE READER. I think I remember that right. She must be
playing lots of bridge because she hasn't made much of an appearance lately.
I read A BLESSING ON THE MOON and I agree with Ruth. It had the Holocaust in
common with THE READER but the themes were extremely different. I liked
ABOTM better, too. Maybe we can tell Oprah. Skibell is such a nice guy.
Sherry
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (82 of 85), Read 26 times
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From:
S Thomsen (susant3@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, April 26, 1999 08:58 AM
All,
the other German novel I was thinking of is "The Emigrants," by W.G. Sebald.
According to a phrase I lifted from Amazon, it's about four exiles "uprooted by
war and prejudice" and about memory, loss, and both the past and the present.
From what I recall of the novel, it's not as specifically about the Holocaust as
"The Reader," but both share a stillness that, to me, seems European. A
profound subject related in a fairly simple manner. Iain McEwen's "Black Dogs"
struck me this way, too.
Susan
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (83 of 85), Read 25 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, April 26, 1999 10:11 AM
Susan: Excellent point, about Southerners still paying for the sins of the past. As
egregious as those were, our region has never had a monopoly on bigotry or
hatred, as so many recent examples in the news make clear. But we're still often
portrayed by the media as somehow unique in this respect. They say "history is
written by the victors," and I certainly think it's true in this case.
Speaking of which, I don't think most people realize that Southerners, and the
native Americans before them, are the only groups in the country who have
experienced defeat--indeed, decimation--in a war fought on their own soil. That
perspective doesn't go away in just a few generations, if ever.
Preachers here often use the text (Jeremiah 31:29, I believe) "The fathers have
eaten a sour grape and the children's teeth are set on edge." How true.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (84 of 85), Read 20 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
S Thomsen (susant3@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, April 26, 1999 11:48 AM
Dale, you're absolutely right about the South not having a monopoly on bigotry
and racism; nearby NYC has been occasionally racked with racial problems over
the last ten years or so, the most recent of which was the police killing of the
young Guinean immigrant Amadou Diallo. And the New Jersey governor has
admitted that racial profiling was indeed used by state troopers on the NJ
Turnpike--some people were stopped only because of the color of their skin.
Back to the novel. I did sense a lot of numbness in "The Reader," the kind of
numbness that the narrator himself talks about. It was somewhat distancing.
It was interesting to hear that the Oprah audience was outraged by the affair
between the 15-year-old boy and the woman of 35. I wasn't, though it was
inappropriate. I doubt I'd be as accepting if the genders were reversed and the
guy was 35 and the woman(?) 15. A double standard on my part? I have to think
about this one.
Susan
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (85 of 85), Read 20 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, April 26, 1999 03:14 PM
Ruth and Sherry -- I agree -- ABOTM is a much more readable book -- I just
thought of the contrast in styles -- the three parts of The Reader didn't really flow
for me either but I began to think they weren't supposed to do so. Then there is
the writing in the Skibell book -- outstanding and riveting. It was the contrast in
the writing and my own reactions to these that struck me and I decided to check
out what others thought -- I agree with Sherry -- we should send Skibell to Oprah
for consideration as a selection! It would be interesting to see what her audience
would do with that discussion.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (22 of 27), Read 74 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Tuesday, April 27, 1999 12:49 AM
Dale - how about the Mexicans in Texas? I'm sure I could think of other
examples. I've heard that before - "Southerners are the only . . ." I think it is
one of those flip and convenient sayings that won't stand up to much scrutiny.
Theresa
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (23 of 27), Read 74 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 27, 1999 08:13 AM
Theresa: But I've always thought Mexicans and Texans are Southerners... {G}
Seriously, good point.
By the way, I've just secured my copy of Denis Johnson's ALREADY DEAD and am
looking forward to reading it. Didn't you nominate this one?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
THE READER by Bernhard Schlink (24 of 27), Read 72 times
Conf:
CONSTANT READER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Wednesday, April 28, 1999 12:59 AM
I think Already Dead was nominated by Lynn, Dale. And by the way, where is
Lynn anyway?
My nomination that made this year's list is Milan Kundera's The Book of
Laughter and Forgetting.
I'm reading his latest, Identity, now. This is his second novel written in French.
Doesn't live up to Laughter and Forgetting, but Kundera is always good.
Theresa
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