This is the story of a young man in search of himself. It is set in Paris, the Riviera and the East, all areas the author knows well. As the record of a journey of human spirit, it stands with OF HUMAN BONDAGE as one of the great English novels of our time.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (1 of 6), Read 22 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Friday, February 01, 2002 10:33 PM
From Robert Armstrong: This was a great read. Peter, my
partner, read THE RAZOR'S EDGE as a teenager and it remains
his favorite book. I told him that I feel like this novel influenced
the course of my life even though I just read it for the first time.
What I mean to say, so as not to indulge in the kind of mysticism
that so attracted Larry (and myself,) is that the novel's theme of
the seeker on his individual path to find truth, is alive in our
culture in part due to the influence of this book, and it is this
cultural theme that has so influenced me.
SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT
Don't you adore the death scene of Elliott Templeton? I love how
Maugham was able to be simultaneously wicked and loving about
Elliott who was so pathetic in his aloneness and yet visited by the
Bishop himself. Elliott was splendidly himself to the very end. His
death reminded me of de Lampedusa's "Death of a Prince"
chapter in THE LEOPARD, espite the many differences. Both
novels had a wealthy man dying in a room overlooking the
Mediterranean Sea, each was visited by a procession of priests
giving last rite blessings and both accounts were vividly evoked.
Larry was the soul of the novel and my identification with him is
extensive. Of course, I have not achieved Larry's otherworldly
stature, his grace, and the extent of his intellectual inquiry, but I
aspire to find the truth, too. Maugham captured in Larry an entire
movement of the
future, a direction that a segment of western culture has taken.
In the introduction to the Penguin edition Anthony Curtis
discusses the
likelihood that Larry was developed more from Maugham's
imagination than based upon an actual friend of his. Curtis also
points out that Maugham was a seeker who had studied many
spiritual traditions from around the world. I find it interesting that
Maugham portrays himself in the novel as a very secular
personality. He is both Larry's admirer and foil who at one point
expresses a fairly strong reaction against Christian
doctrine and indicates little awareness of Hinduism or other
mystical traditions. It's as though Maugham split his personality
in two and expressed his ongoing internal debate through a
fictional relationship with Larry.
Please forgive me for mentioning this again, but for one year, in
1962-63,when I was eleven years old, I lived in -Jean-Cap-Ferrat
in a small rented villa with my family-- an unforgettable
experience. I remember my mother showing me where
Somerset Maugham lived, which was several streets away,
behind large closed gates through which you could see lovely
gardens but nothing of the villa itself. She told me he was the
most famous living writer in the world. He died a few years later.
Who nominated this book? Thank you!
Robt
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (2 of 6), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Friday, February 01, 2002 10:53 PM
Ann & Robt: This was my first reading of THE RAZOR'S EDGE,
and it completely blew me away. What a hell of a love story,
what wonderful characters, and what a beautiful rendition of a
spiritual search.
I'll have more to say, specifically, later, but in the meantime I'm
floored by the absolute authority, solidity, etc., of Maugham's
narrative. I've experienced such total control very rarely,
namely in the fiction of Graham Greene, etc. Whatever my
cerebral quibbles, it feels as though I'm riding in a narrative
Rolls-Royce, and I am along for the ride, big-time. Why is this a
quality I never quite feel in fiction of the past 30 or so years?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (3 of 6), Read 20 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Friday, February 01, 2002 11:57 PM
Hi Ann, Robert and Dale,
Like Ruth, I read this book eons ago but fortunately or not, I
can't remember a thing about it. My thoughts:
It makes for fantastic reading and I love the book. While I may
have expressed similar sentiments regarding other books, but
nothing can compare with this one. For some reason everything I
read appeals to me. It is smooth writing and I am very attracted
by the setting, the social milieu and the characters. Perhaps it
makes a difference that I have lived for years in Chicago and
visited both Paris and London. But the focus of the book on both
a genuine love affaire and mysticism does it for me.
Of course Larry, Elliott, Isabell and even Kosti are lifelike,
interesting and mostly good people. Maugham portrays himself
as a genuine and gentle person.
I may be alone in this, but the social milieu fascinates me as
well. It feels as if I am participating the life of the elite which
makes it interesting even if some of these socialites are mired in
their love of money and need for recognition. Few are genuine
intellectuals but flatter themselves to be such.
Well, as I said before reading this book is a wonderful
experience and it gives me a chance to learn more about
mysticism and perhaps oriental spiritualism and religion, all
things of which I know so little.
Ernie
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (4 of 6), Read 17 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Saturday, February 02, 2002 09:15 AM
"A narrative Rolls Royce", I love that description, Dale. I also
loved reading this book. The social milieu described was very
much that of an earlier time, but the philosophical questions
raised are so contemporary, probably because they are timeless.
I am impressed by Maugham's ability to weave all of these
characters together in a story so effectively. This is a relatively
short book and yet I thought we had fairly complete pictures of
Elliott, Gray, Suzanne, Sophie, Isabel and the narrator.
Somehow, I had the sense that I knew Larry the least. I'm
wondering if it was because he was evolving throughout the
story. Did anyone else have that reaction?
And, Robt, yes, I loved Elliott's dying scene! Actually, I loved all
of the sections having to do with Elliott but everything having to
do with his death was perfect. That whole process of wangling an
invitation to Edna Novemali's party was poignant and yet such an
illustration of Elliott's values. He was dying and this was still
important to him! And, having himself buried in his Count de
Lauria costume, sword at his side and the order of the Golden
Fleece on his breast! Can you imagine a more perfect contrast to
the character of Larry and his quest?
From what I've read, I think that Maugham had a lot of Elliott in
him as well. It seems that he put part of himself in Elliott, part in
Larry and part in his narrator self.
Great book! I also want to thank the person who nominated it.
Who was it, Ann?
Barb
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (5 of 6), Read 8 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Saturday, February 02, 2002 07:21 PM
Robert, I was moved to tears by Elliott's death scene, which is a
rare thing for me. There was such a reverence about it. And so
perfect were the bishop's comment that Elliott's faults are all on
the surface and at his core he was generous and kind. Of course
it didn't hurt that he was so generous with the Church.
I loved Elliott's RSVP: "Mr. Elliott Templeton regrets that he
cannot accept Princess Novemali's kind invitation owing to a
previous engagement with his Blessed Lord."
Dale, I am curious about your "total control" comment. The word
I was thinking of while reading was taut. For 2/3 of the book, I
could barely move, I was so taken with the reading.
I've been thinking about the title as having something to do with
the razor that killed Sophie. But also, Maugham gets the truth out
of Isabel about how she sabotaged Sophie with the temptation of
alcohol. Maugham implicates Isabel in Sophie's death, so Isabel
must have a grip on that razor.
Here's one of my favorite passages, when Maugham is trying to
explain to Isabel why Larry wants to marry Sophie (p.168 of my
book):
I only wanted to suggest to you that self-sacrifice is a passion so
overwhelming that beside it even lust and hunger are trifling. It
whirls its victim to destruction in the highest affirmation of his
personality. The object doesn't matter; it may be worth while or
it may be worthless. No wine is so intoxicating, no love so
shattering, no vice so compelling. When he sacrifices himself
man for a moment is greater than God, for how can God, infinite
and omnipotent, sacrifice himself? At best he can only sacrifice
his only begotten son.
Wow!
Strike now, or else the iron cools. - W. Shakespeare
MAP
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (6 of 6), Read 7 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Saturday, February 02, 2002 08:08 PM
MAP -- your passage follows upon the heels of the one I believe
Robert referred to in his post the two together were thus far a
standout section of this work for me. Isabel's reaction to what
the narrator says to her "Where on earth did you get that?" and
his response "Nowhere. I've invented it on the spur of the
moment." and again her response"I think it's idiotic and
blasphemous." -- an interesting bridge.
This page (p209) took me back to Crace's Quarantine with the
references to the devil's temptations of Jesus -- I am left
pondering how WSM's 'But it wasn't. The devil was sly and he
came to Jesus once more and said: If thou wilt accept shame
and disgrace, scourging, a crown of thorns and death on the
cross, thou shalt save the human race, for greater love has no
man than this , that a man lay down his life for his friends. Jesus
fell. The devil laughed till his sides ached, for he knew the evil
men would commit in the name of their redeemer.' is similar or
dissimilar to the underlying thinking behind Musa and his dealing
with Gally and the others in the desert caves?
I have about a hundred pages to go to finish this one but am
thoroughly enjoying it as I always do when I visit with Maugham.
Dottie
Solitude is a human presumption. Every quiet step is thunder to
beetle life underfoot, a tug of impalpable thread on the web
pulling mate to mate and predator to prey, a beginning or an
end. Every choice is a world made new for the chosen. Prodigal
Summer, Barbara Kingsolver
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (7 of 23), Read 46 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Sunday, February 03, 2002 02:45 PM
Excellent notes, folks. MAP, I did say Maugham was in
"total control" but probably a better choice of words would
be "sure-handed." Taut prose, yes, and with an underlying
confidence that the story is proceeding, detours and all,
exactly the way it should.
For instance, when Maugham starts off on the long tale
about his friend the artist's model (sorry, I don't have the
book at hand to check her name), I would ordinarily have
been impatient, wondering what the heck this had to do
with anything, even though it was interesting in itself.
With Maugham at the wheel, though, I had faith that this
woman would turn out to be yet another F.O.L. (Friend of
Larry), and I was right.{G}
Another thing Maugham does, especially at the beginning,
is the authorial-voice preliminaries that workshops warn
us writers against, as being intrusive, and which I nearly
always find irritating in contemporary fiction. There were
writers of Maugham's generation, though, who could pull it
off with absolute grace and style. Which makes me wonder
whether it's the technique itself that makes the "intrusion"
work, or whether I subconsciously cut the authors extra
slack because I know the intrusive-author tack was much
more accepted and proper back then.
>>Dale in Ala.
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (8 of 23), Read 40 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Sunday, February 03, 2002 06:34 PM
Well - I just got to the martini and I think we need to have
Steve try this out{G}. Is he reading this book? If not I
vote no one passes on this recipe to him -- make him find
it himself{G}. Just kidding but Steve was the first person I
thought of when I read that "secret" ingredient -- of
course, not knowing much about drinking generally and
less about martinis -- this may be news only to me! I am
almost done -- almost done -- I want to stop reading so I
can stay in this book longer.
Dottie
Solitude is a human presumption. Every quiet step is
thunder to beetle life underfoot, a tug of impalpable
thread on the web pulling mate to mate and predator to
prey, a beginning or an end. Every choice is a world made
new for the chosen. Prodigal Summer, Barbara Kingsolver
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (9 of 23), Read 36 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Monday, February 04, 2002 12:30 PM
Well -- of course I couldn't stop reading and so I am
finished with this wonderful book. The writing and the
authorial asides -- which I relate to the breaking the fourth
wall in theatre -- whether or not that is a fit connection --
are perhaps a matter of the time in which the authors
worked. And yet -- this 'time' feeling is precisely why I
think today's readers need to read books from all decades
-- not revised versions but as they were. So they aren't
politically correct -- what we can learn from what is written
AS it was written is both the story told by an author and
the story told by the usage of terms and the thoughts
which shine through the story. We get to find a few warts
along with the beauty of past decades. It has always been
part of my fascination with reading to pick out these little
points -- to have my brain trip over a now not so proper
idea or term and to think of it in relation to the time -- why
has it changed and how has it change -- and even that
really hard question of has it REALLY changed?
I was interested here in the mysticism and the searching
of Larry on the level of the character of Larry but also in
relation to why he did or did not do certain things relative
to the other characters -- the effect of his decisions on
each of them. I would certainly say that some of Isabel's
bitter and vengeful layer had been sparked or enhanced
by her interactions early on with Larry. So many
wonderfully complex characters and so many crossed ties
to examine.
Such a juxtaposition of the levels of society -- and the
levels of self-delusion -- Elliot is fascinating. One begins to
wonder at some points what the paths of his nephews
and niece (Isabel) might have been if Uncle E. had been
present in their lives in America rather than a distant figure
over there across an ocean. Would he have been the
laughing stock or would his very social-climbing sillinesses
have taught the group -- particularly I. a different way of
viewing what is valued. Would she have reacted by
wanting to be less conventional and thus gone off with
Larry to search for the more "real" life which he wished to
explore.
And DID he -- I think it comes back to not better or worse
but different -- each of these young people had high
points and low ones -- whatever level of society they were
in at that moment there were always pros and cons.
Dottie
Solitude is a human presumption. Every quiet step is
thunder to beetle life underfoot, a tug of impalpable
thread on the web pulling mate to mate and predator to
prey, a beginning or an end. Every choice is a world made
new for the chosen. Prodigal Summer, Barbara Kingsolver
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (10 of 23), Read 34 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Monday, February 04, 2002 02:55 PM
Dottie writes,
So many wonderfully complex characters and so many
crossed ties to examine.
Amen, I say. That gets to the heart of what makes this
novel so intriguing and satisfying for me. "What if..." and
"If only..." are the real eternal questions, aren't they?
Speaking of which, here's a question that's probably
unanswerable but I can't keep from pondering it anyhow.
If Isabel (at least, the character she's become by the end
of the book) had it all to do over again, would she have
chosen to go on the road with Larry and take life
come-what-may? And if so, do you think their pairing
would have lasted through the years?
>>Dale in Ala.
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (11 of 23), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net
Date:
Monday, February 04, 2002 05:15 PM
I was floored by The Razor's Edge. Partly, I suppose,
because I had absolutely no expectations going in. You've
already covered what I think -- smooth writing, engaging
characters. They were all so complex, real and
multidimensional. But most of all, it's ideas are profound.
Larry's search is so heart-felt. I love his conversation with
the Maugham character about God. Why would God want
to be worshipped? I remember thinking those same exact
things years ago. (Maybe why I like it so much is that
Larry's questions mimic many of my own. My
fundamentalist father would hate RE.)
What do you all think about Maugham putting himself in
the narrator role? It made the book seem like a memoir,
and naive person that I am, if I had not read the Curtis
introduction, I would have probably thought the whole
thing was true.
Sherry
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (12 of 23), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Monday, February 04, 2002 06:14 PM
That "reality" element is something which really helped set
the whole into place for me -- Maugham lays out the whole
as though he is basing these people on real persons and
taking great care NOT to reveal too much. The kiss and tell
without the tell -- come to think of it that is what is wrong
with many modern day attempts at such writing -- they
aim to tell a serious story based in reality or on some
general aspects of that perception but inevitably there is
either too little or too much somehow. Does this make any
sense?
I could sit and take RE and lay out each bit and somehow
feel I should be able to locate identify and further explore
these characters -- it feels that real -- that complete and
full.
Dottie
Solitude is a human presumption. Every quiet step is
thunder to beetle life underfoot, a tug of impalpable
thread on the web pulling mate to mate and predator to
prey, a beginning or an end. Every choice is a world made
new for the chosen. Prodigal Summer, Barbara Kingsolver
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (13 of 23), Read 33 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Monday, February 04, 2002 08:24 PM
There's plenty of political incorrectness in Razor's Edge:
Maugham tells us that Elliott hates Jews (in 1944, no less).
And then there's Gray's "nigger in a woodpile" comment at
the end. These things tend to stop me in my tracks as I
read them in 2002. But, by contrast, Larry seems so free
from such bigotries. It seems like Larry could be happy in
any company, and doesn't need to make himself better
than someone else.
Strike now, or else the iron cools. - W. Shakespeare
MAP
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (14 of 23), Read 32 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:26 PM
Barb, your comment that Elliott and Larry are as opposite
as you can get is right on. I like the idea that these two
characters are two opposing aspects of Maugham's
personality, making THE RAZOR'S EDGE not so much a
roman a clef as a roman a moi (probably terrible French
but it's a joke.)
Maugham's narrator persona is one who spans the social
spectrum, who is friends with Suzanne and Princess
Novemali alike, free of the social divisions of his time,
affording him the necessary experience to write more fully
about life around him. Larry mirrors this in his spiritual
quest, recognizing that wisdom can be found anywhere in
the social and cultural diversity of the world. Larry's habit
of not giving out his address made sense because it freed
him from the social obligations of his strata. Being
unreachable and telling Elliott that he doesn't do lunch
was his way of saying: "I don't do society."
MAP, I loved the passage you quoted about sacrifice. And
like Sherry, I also had objections to the beliefs that
Maugham so shrewdly questions. The whole
Larry/Maugham cosmological discussion is fascinating.
And such deliciously wicked wit:
"Elliott had always felt that nature was an impediment to
the social life, and he had no patience with people who
could bother to go to see a lake or a mountain when they
had before their eyes a Regency commode or a painting by
Watteau."
"In the library, which was to be Gray's den, [the interior
designer] had been inspired by a room in the Amalienberg
Palace at Munich, and except that there was no place in it
for books it was perfect."
And at a tea party in Paris, Maugham describes the chic
Anti-Larry guests: "They talked with inanity in a loud,
metallic voice without a moment's pause, as though afraid
that if they were silent for an instant the machine would
run down and the artificial construction which was all they
were would fall to pieces……..'Charming women,' said
Elliott when he came back from seeing the two poor
painted drabs to the door. 'I knew them when they first
settled in Paris. I never dreamt they'd turn out as well as
they have.'"
Robt
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (15 of 23), Read 31 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:45 PM
Robt: I had forgotten the great description you quote,
They talked with inanity in a loud, metallic voice without a
moment's pause, as though afraid that if they were silent for
an instant the machine would run down...
but it gave me chills when I read it. That's exactly the way
most social situations have always seemed to me. How
can people talk for hours at a time, without ever stopping
to think, reflect, or just let their brain rest?
Maybe that's why I tend to lean toward Thoreau's dictum,
"There is no companion so companionable as silence."
CRs excepted, of course...{G}
>>Dale in Ala.
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (16 of 23), Read 27 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Jody Richael
Date:
Tuesday, February 05, 2002 05:19 PM
I logged on to quickly read some comments and post some
thoughts but it seems that once you start thinking about
this book you just can’t stop! I am still trying to pull all my
thoughts together on this book. I have read other WSM
books but I don’t know how I managed never to read this
one until now.
The main reason I enjoyed this book is that it touches on
so many issues that are still relevant today (and probably
will always be relevant). In this book I think WSM poses
questions dealing with a person’s duty in this world, each
person’s purpose in life, the balance between selfishness
and self-sacrifice and more. Each character seems to have
a different answer to these questions and the narrator is
so non-judgmental about them. I wonder if Larry is so
fascinating to the narrator because the narrator likes the
answers Larry seems to find or just because Larry is so
different from mainstream humanity? I loved the
full-development of so many different characters as it
helped you to get to know Larry through comparison.
Regarding the title, this quote was in the front of my copy:
"The sharp edge of a razor is difficult to pass over; thus
the wise say the path to Salvation is hard."
Katha-Upanishad
I'll have to think about that some more.
Jody (I hope this doesn't post twice - my first try
disappeared somehow).
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (17 of 23), Read 25 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Tuesday, February 05, 2002 06:00 PM
I nominated this book. As it turned out, the other
nominations were so good that this is the only one of my
own for which I voted.
This was a bit of a shot in the dark. I knew that the story
had some interesting subject matter but I had never read
Maugham. Like the rest of you, I was very pleased by the
quality of the writing.
Mary Ann in note 5 wrote: I've been thinking about the
title as having something to do with the razor that killed
Sophie.
The title refers to the first words of the novel, the quote
from the Katha-Upanishad, “The sharp edge of the razor is
difficult to pass over; thus the wise say [that] the path to
Salvation is hard.”
This says that it is difficult to walk along the path to
“salvation” because it is so thin. It is difficult to find a
balance in life and it is uncomfortable when we do. It is far
easier to take an extreme position than to maintain a
balance.
For me, the most balanced people in the book were
Suzanne and Maugham. Elliot and Larry represented
opposite extremes.
Robert in note 14 wrote: Larry… in his spiritual quest,
recogniz[ed] that wisdom can be found anywhere in the
social and cultural diversity of the world.
I don’t agree with this because if it were true Larry could
have found it exactly where he was and would not have
left Isabel. Throughout all his searching Larry found no
“purpose” but he did find what he was really after: a
solace to his anxieties of mortality and survivor guilt.
Dale in note 10 wrote: If Isabel had it all to do over again,
would she have chosen to go on the road with Larry and
take life come-what-may? And if so, do you think their
pairing would have lasted through the years?
When Isabel was trying to make the decision whether to
stay with Larry or not, I was routing for her to leave him. I
think that she made the right choice. Their values were
never reconciled. Larry’s search was extremely
self-centred. It was best for Isabel not to form a
relationship with someone who could not find fulfillment in
relationships.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (18 of 23), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Tuesday, February 05, 2002 09:09 PM
Robert, you've reminded me, by quoting the passage on
the "metallic voices" that while reading I was thinking
about the x-ray socialites in Bonfire of the Vanities.
Maugham captures the shallowness of the social scene,
what it means to get invited, and then stay on the list
indefinitely, all while being of the process himself. He
writes it so it is not out-and-out ridicule, so he probably
still got invitations to all the best parties after this book
was published.
Also, the passage about Gray's den not having any books
reminded me that Elliott's den did have books. But they
were pornographic, and thus behind locked grills. Books
are pretty much off limits to this set. Imagine the
narrator's surprise at seeing Larry absorbed in reading for
10 hours.
Nothing that can be can come between me and the full
prospect of my hopes. - W. Shakespeare
MAP
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (19 of 23), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Tuesday, February 05, 2002 09:21 PM
Jody: Thanks for clarifying where the "razor's edge" of the
title comes from. My library copy, which is literally falling to
pieces from much use, didn't include that reference. Or,
maybe that piece just fell out.{G}
Funny, but a similar concept is in the Judeo-Christian
scriptures too, just in different metaphors: "It is easier for
a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich
man to enter heaven," and "Straight is the gate and
narrow is the way that leadeth to salvation..."
The idea of making one's way toward the truth across a
straight-and-narrow razor blade is a whole 'nother image,
though, and as you say it merits some extra thought.
Good point, I think, about Maugham being so
non-judgmental of these bizarrely different types of
people. Yet another triumph of his wonderful writing.
>>Dale in Ala.
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (20 of 23), Read 18 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Wednesday, February 06, 2002 01:03 PM
Here is the complete poem whose first line Maugham
inscribed in the copy of his novel which he gave to Sophie.
My translation follows.
Ode à Cassandre
Pierre De Ronsard
Odes, livre premier, XV11
Mignonne, allons voir si la rose
Qui ce matin avait déclose
Sa robe de pourpre au soleil,
A point perdu cette vesprée
Les plis de sa robe pourprée,
Et son teint au vôtre pareil.
Las ! voyez comme en peu d'espace,
Mignonne, elle a dessus la place,
Las, las ses beautés laissé choir !
O vraiment marâtre nature,
Puisqu'une telle fleur ne dure
Que du matin jusques au soir !
Donc, si vous me croyez, mignonne,
Tandis que votre âge fleuronne
En sa plus verte nouveauté,
Cueillez, cueillez votre jeunesse :
Comme à cette fleur, la vieillesse
Fera ternir votre beauté.
Ode to Cassandra
Sweet little one, let us see if the rose,
Which this morning revealed
Her crimson dress to the sun,
Has not lost this evening
The folds of her regal gown
And her tint so like yours.
Alas, look how in a short time,
Sweet little one, she has over the place beneath,
Alas, alas, let her beauty fall!
O truly cruel mother nature,
Since a flower such as this lasts
But from morning until evening!
And so, if you have faith in me, sweet little one,
While your youth blossoms
In its most verdant newness,
Gather, gather your youth:
As with this flower, old age
Will tarnish your beauty.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (21 of 23), Read 17 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Wednesday, February 06, 2002 07:42 PM
Dean & Jody, Thanks for the Razor's Edge quote. My library
book was falling apart as I read it, and the quote was not
part of it.
Nothing that can be can come between me and the full
prospect of my hopes. - W. Shakespeare
MAP
TOP |
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (22 of 23), Read 16 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Thursday, February 07, 2002 12:05 AM
Dean,
So glad that you nominated this superb novel.
Regarding Larry's quest: I don't think Larry recognized
that wisdom could be found anywhere in the diversity of
the world until after he had searched for years. After much
experience he realized that he had gathered insight from
all his encounters and had gained tremendous value from
not confining his exploration to any single social sphere in
the manner of Elliott Templeton. What Larry understood
after the war was that he had no desire to live his life
according the the expectations of his social setting and
this led to his moving onto something else. What he was
looking for he didn't exactly know, but he was true to his
desire to pursue something different. I also don't see this
as "extremely self-centred" but rather as being honest
and authentic. He was following an inner lead instead of
an outer one and he was forthright about this with Isabel.
Larry was too aware and considerate of those around him
to be characterized as self-centered. Also, I feel that Larry
did find purpose, and that was to live his life on his own
terms, in harmony with others.
Robt
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (23 of 23), Read 12 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Thursday, February 07, 2002 02:20 AM
Thanks, Robert and Mary Ann.
You make a good point, Robert. Larry was honest and
considerate. What I meant was a less negative
connotation of self-centred in the sense that Larry's
search for self-realization emphasised self more than
relationships. I think that Elliott was very similar to Larry in
this way but within a different sphere.
Nor do I mean to imply that entering a relationship to
which one is not completely committed is any better. I felt
that Larry was about to do just that with Sophie. Did
anyone else get this feeling?
The result is that I think that Larry was not balanced in the
sense implied by the opening quote. I don't begrudge
Larry his chosen life style but I don't begrudge Elliott his
either. Each sought fulfillment on his own terms. Nor can I
extol the choice of one over the choice of the other. I
equate them and place each at opposite ends far from the
razor's edge: a perfect balance.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (24 of 24), Read 1 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Jody Richael
Date:
Thursday, February 07, 2002 12:04 PM
Dean - very interesting idea about the razor's edge
representing the balance that is difficult to find in life. I'll
have to think some more about that one. It could apply to
many different aspects of the characters. I would also
agree that Larry is selfish as is every other character in
the book. This doesn't have to be negative -it just
depends on where you think the right balance (or razor's
edge) is with selfishness/selflessness.
I liked the way the book is summed up in the end with the
following:
"For all the persons with whom I have been concerned got
what they wanted: Elliot social eminence; Isabel an
assured position backed by a substantial fortune in an
active and cultured community; Gray a steady and lucrative
job, with an office to go to from nine till six every day;
Suzanne Rouvier security; Sophie death; and Larry
happiness."
When I read that it made me wonder if the true measure
of a man(woman) is his success in achieving his life’s
purpose (whatever that may be) or if the true measure of
a man is what he chooses for his life's purpose?
Jody
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (25 of 52), Read 56 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Thursday, February 07, 2002 07:47 PM
I have avoided reading these notes until I finished the
book, which I did this afternoon. Thanks, Dean, for
nominating it. I like this the best of anything I have read
by Maugham, including OF HUMAN BONDAGE, A MOON AND
SIXPENCE, THE PAINTED VEIL, and various short stories.
Maugham certainly knew how to tell a tale and draw a
character, didn't he? Like many of you, I also found Larry's
search for religious meaning fascinating.
Great notes, everyone.
Dale, Isabel and Larry would have made each other totally
miserable and she was wise to break the engagement.
Isabel is my favorite character in the book, not because
she is likable, but because she is so well drawn. What
about Larry and Sophie? Could they ever have made each
other happy? Or was Isabel right about them?
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (26 of 52), Read 55 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:31 PM
Thanks, Ann. It was a toss up between RE and "Of Human
Bondage." Having read neither, I'm glad that this one
found favour with you and the others.
Jody, Maugahm's quote shows a definite detachment. He
cared for and was accessible to all the others. He never
passed judgment or tried to influence others. I thought
that he was the most balanced character in the book.
Your question is very interesting.
The idea of a successful life implies a value system by
which we can evaluate a life. Your question bases this
value system on:
- The existence of a purpose which implies
pre-determination.
- The purpose chosen by a person which implies free will.
Can we be sure that a person has a pre-determined
purpose? If so how does a person know it?
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (27 of 52), Read 56 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Friday, February 08, 2002 01:11 AM
Dean,
I like to congratulate you for your choice as well. Often,
after reading a book, I will be emotionally moved to the
point when I think it was the finest book I ever read. But
with time I arrive at a more realistic appraisal. Now this
time I am more certain that it is one of the best I ever
read perhaps because the book that appeals to me
personally the most.
I am within a few pages of the end and have a few
comments. In a way I see Larry and Elliott both striving for
the ultimate and only in this respect they are similar. But
they were striving in opposite directions. Elliott's goal was
the ultimate in social success, to be on top of the heap so
to say. Larry also wanted the ultimate and achieved it by
finding peace within himself. I see Maugham as the
ultimate kindly spectator and somewhat in between and
more of the average person with all the flaws and virtues
of mankind. He just watched, listened and occasional
commented with common sense. Robert, when you
described Elliott's quarters designed by the ultimate
interior decorator you noted there was no room for books
and it would follow that Elliott never gave reading a
thought. Well he did read, in a way. He had a collection of
18h and 19th Century Pornography books. So he did have
an education but of a special sort.
Now I must deal with lovely Isabel and plain Sophie. Could
Isabel ever forgive Sophie for being loved by Larry?
Certainly not, but she eventually was "so helpful" taking
her to the best dressmaker and leaving her at her house
with a bottle of the most refined liqueur? Did Isabel do her
in on purpose? Was it an unconscious act? Was it the
ultimate meanness Isabel could come with?
Gray is a fine man who has taken a serious fall due to the
1929 economic depression. Would he ever overcome
having lost his money and letting his customers down? He
must have realized that his wife was in love with Larry but
up to the point where I am now, this has not been an
issue in their marriage.
Incidentally the arm levitation thing is real and well known.
Most anyone can learn to induce levitation as part of
partial hypnosis. One of our local professors of surgery
(UCSF) used this routinely prior to surgery to reduce the
level of anesthetics. He was teaching this technique to his
students. I am making the point that this act is not the
result of ultimate enlightenment.
Ernie
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (28 of 52), Read 53 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Friday, February 08, 2002 02:11 AM
Thanks, Ernie. I'm beginning to feel that I may have
returned the favour of all the great reading experiences
which I have had since coming here.
Also, I'm pleased that you reminded me of the dedication
of Gray and his father to the welfare of their clients. What
Gray's father did for his customers was genuinely virtuous.
I thought that Maugham was showing that the distinction
between "material" and "spiritual" was essentially
meaningless. This was mirrored when Elliott received
financial advice from the Vatican.
What Isabel did to Sophie seems less evil if one considers
that her motive was to test Sophie in order to protect
Larry. That Sophie failed the test, however, was irrelevant
to their future happiness as a couple. Although, as Mary
Ann said, Isabel had her hand on the razor, Sophie's
decision not to go back to Larry was a factor in her
eventual death.
I'm still not sure of Larry's love for Sophie. I remember
thinking that they were together because of their
respective encounters with death. I'm not sure how long
they would have lasted or how happy they would have
been together.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (29 of 52), Read 52 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net
Date:
Friday, February 08, 2002 07:05 AM
Thank you, Dean, for your serendipitous nomination of The
Razor's Edge. It has become one of my favorite books, and
I am sure I will reread it. I don't think I would have ever
read it, had it not been on the CC list.
Ernie, I don't think Larry assumed that the hand levitation
thing was due to Enlightenment. He explained how he
learned that little hypnotic trick and it was way before his
"experience." But it's interesting to note that the method
works. I have heard of it before, too. The mind is such a
fascinating subject.
Sherry
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (30 of 52), Read 52 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Friday, February 08, 2002 11:26 AM
IMHO Isabel would have stopped at nothing to prevent
Sophie from marrying Larry. I don't think she was giving
her a "test" to see if she was worthy. That explanation
was simply an attempt to justify her behavior to Maugham.
Really it's too bad that Isabel didn't sleep with Larry a time
or two to get him out of her system. It was obvious the
two were temperamentally totally unsuited to each other.
Larry seemed to be able to take sex or leave it alone--
almost always the latter. The introduction to my copy
suggests that, like Maugham, he may have been a
homosexual, but I think it would be much more fair to
describe him as asexual.
I liked Maugham's technique of inserting himself into the
story. It made it seem much truer. Also, how convenient
for Maugham that the book paints him as such a kind and
generous friend. In real life, I think he was supposed to be
very difficult. Yet in the book, he is extremely attentive to
Elliot while he is dying and he is so generous to Sophie,
whom he hardly knows, that he not only identifies her
body but pays for her funeral. I wish I had more friends
like him.
I found Larry's explanations of the reincarnation and the
eventual merger with the Absolute extremely interesting. I
could really get attached to this idea of reincarnation,
were it not for the fact that even if it were true, you might
as well have ceased to exist if you have no conscious
memory of previous lives.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (31 of 52), Read 52 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Jody Richael
Date:
Friday, February 08, 2002 12:52 PM
Your response on purposes in life raises some interesting
issues again. I suppose my question implies that I believe
there are some purposes which are more worthy than
others. For example, I would not say Elliot had chosen a
worthy purpose for his life (achieving and maintaining
social eminence). What I find very interesting about this
book is that the author doesn’t seem to be promoting (or
discrediting) any given purpose or value. He finds value or
at least good in all the characters. The book seems to be
more about the search and the struggle and the many
similarities that run throughout humanity despite the
different answers people arrive at.
Also, I don’t know that each person’s purpose is
predetermined. I think we do have the ability to choose
our own purpose but I think that there is a value system
which those choices are judged by and therefore some
choices are better than others. I only had a minute to
write but I would like to get back to this later.
Ann - I also find the idea of reincarnation to be very
interesting and I can see how some can believe in it
although I personally don’t.
Jody
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (32 of 52), Read 53 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Friday, February 08, 2002 02:35 PM
Ernie,
It’s a pattern of mine as well to feel that the book I just
read is one of my favorites while I’m still in its thrall.
However, I am convinced that THE RAZOR’S EDGE will be
among my all time favorite novels. (Ask me next year how
I feel.) This book was a joy to read.
Ann and Jody,
The tradition in which I grew up reviles the notion of
reincarnation but over the years I have adopted it into my
belief system. The aspect of it that I don’t believe is that
we are making up for past behaviors in each lifetime, ever
reaching to opt out of the life cycle. In fact, I have trouble
with a lot of Eastern belief, but reincarnation itself makes
sense to me. What I related to about Larry was that he
was willing to adopt beliefs that were outside of his own
tradition and he allowed himself to be the final judge.
Robt
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (33 of 52), Read 41 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Saturday, February 09, 2002 02:56 AM
Thanks, Sherry.
Ann, it would be difficult for me to defend Isabel against
your view. I would have to hope for a sympathetic jury.
Jody, yes, it's a tricky subject. Here I would like to make
another distinction.
"Purpose" from the point of view of an individual means
the goals and aims which e chooses for erself. The degree
to which a person has the power to choose er purpose
depends on culture.
So, given the freedom which our culture allows each
individual, how do we establish a standard for valuing an
individual's life?
"Purpose" as in "the purpose of life" is a more tenuous
concept. It is meaningful only if there is some entity which
is benefiting from life or which has set a goal for life. In
other words, "god." To say that life must have a purpose
is to say that there must be a "god." This is circular
reasoning.
This leaves me with the idea that any specifically stated
purpose for life must be inadequate. This idea makes me
smile.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (34 of 52), Read 41 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Saturday, February 09, 2002 05:22 PM
Ann, I agree with you that Isabel should have slept with
Larry and gotten him out of her system. I think she felt the
same as she got older. She seemed to be so incredibly
sensual and he was more of an aesthetic, it seems to me.
I can't imagine them being very well matched in bed. Was
anyone else struck by that scene in which she almost
seems to be having an orgasm gazing at the fine hairs on
Larry's wrist during a car ride? As I read, I found it a very
erotic description until Maugham described the look on her
face:
It was a mask of lust. I should never have believed that her
beautiful features could assume an expression of such
unbridled sensuality. It was animal rather than human. The
beauty was stripped from her face; the look upon it made her
hideous and frightening. It horribly suggested the bitch in
heat and I felt rather sick.
It was the one place in the book when I thought Maugham
missed the mark, where his own private lack may have
interfered with his ability to write the character. Does
anyone think I'm wrong and that his reaction actually did
fit? I thought he had done an excellent job previously of
painting Isabel's sexuality and then suddenly he is
sickened by her obvious lust.
Dean, I do know what you and others here mean by Larry
being centered on a journey of the self. I've known people
who remind me a bit of Larry and they don't lead lives that
include other people, except for short periods. I think that
pairing with anyone would have been a disaster,
ultimately, for the other person. And, Sophie and Isabel
were the farthest thing from good prospective candidates.
Barb
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (35 of 52), Read 42 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Saturday, February 09, 2002 06:01 PM
Barb,
Well, I do remember thinking when I read the description
that I had never actually seen anyone's face disfigured by
lust--maybe some bad guy rapist in the movies, but never
in real life. I think it very possible that Maugham found
strong sexual feelings in women "inappropriate."
I was very interested in your comment that you had
known people somewhat like Larry and the observation
that their lives did not include other people. I wonder if
these intense, and quite exclusive spiritual journeys are
somewhat selfish. Do you suppose that at the end of a life
devoted to the search for spiritual significance, Larry felt
that it had all been rather empty?
Ann
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (36 of 52), Read 41 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Jody Richael
Date:
Saturday, February 09, 2002 06:43 PM
Dean - I agree that ‘purpose’ for an individual would be
the goals and aims which are chosen. Culture does impact
that to an extent but I think there are many purposes
which are cross-cultural including many of the ones
demonstrated in the novel (social eminence, security,
contribution to society, inner peace, material wealth
(however that is defined in each culture). Of course there
are also the standard values like dedication to family,
learning selflessness, obedience to one’s god, and so on.
Each person has to decide for themselves what standards
they will use to judge their life choices and others. We will
never all agree on one standard but every person comes
up with something (even if it is that life has no purpose).
I guess you have convinced me that to say that life must
have a purpose is to say that there must be a God or at
least a continuation of life after this one of some sort. I’m
not sure what you mean by, “any specifically stated
purpose for life must be inadequate“. I’m curious - can you
elaborate?
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (37 of 52), Read 37 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Sunday, February 10, 2002 12:20 AM
Looks like I was not the only one who was shocked by
Maugham's disgust when he noted Elisabeth's facial
expression of lust. I feel certain that this was due to his
own sexual identity problems. Hate to admit it but I
always had a difficult time understanding this matter of
re-incarnation which seems to be an essential part of
some Eastern religions. I think that it is due to man kind's
inability to accept death as final.
When I wrote my previous note I had not read the last 50
pages. They dealt in part with Maugham accusing
Elisabeth of killing Sophie. Elisabeth finally admits to
having created the powerful temptation for Sophie. But
there is another aspect to the story. Perhaps she had the
intuition that Sophie's marriage to Larry may have
destroyed the "seeker" in him. Larry as a married man
would not have been exposed to mysticism and achieved
what he wanted to achieve. So perhaps Elisabeth's
actions were not as contemptible as I had considered
them at one point and may have been protective of Larry
as well.
Larry had the courage of facing life in New York pennyless
during depression days without a penny in his pocket. I
would have avoided that at all cost.
Ernie
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (38 of 52), Read 34 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net
Date:
Sunday, February 10, 2002 08:03 AM
Barb and Ernie, I remember quite well being puzzled by
that description of lust on Isabel's face. I agree that it was
one of the only times that Maugham missed the mark. He
must have had some real fear of women's passion to have
come up with that distorted face image. I can't really
imagine what it must have looked like. That's not my idea
of what a face transported by longing and desire would
look like.
Sherry
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (39 of 52), Read 38 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Sunday, February 10, 2002 09:35 AM
Wow -- I am way out of the loop here it seems. I thought
Maugham had Isabel truly pegged there in that scene --
she seemed to me to be the ultimate consumer of men --
Gray only existed for her to satisfy her own desires. I don't
mean the family needs and the supporter of the life which
in those times was the way of it -- the man out working
and so on -- her cravings -- whatever they were. Think
Black Widow Spider here people. I thought that was the
most revelatory scene concerning Isabel's true being. That
scene gave a quick flash of the truth behind Isabel's
actions throughout the story I felt.
Dottie
Solitude is a human presumption. Every quiet step is
thunder to beetle life underfoot, a tug of impalpable
thread on the web pulling mate to mate and predator to
prey, a beginning or an end. Every choice is a world made
new for the chosen. Prodigal Summer, Barbara Kingsolver
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (40 of 52), Read 36 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:24 AM
Dottie,
Hmmm-- Black Widow Spider seems extreme to me. As
Ernie pointed out, marriage to Sophie would not exactly
have been a good thing for Larry, and Isabel obviously
managed to justify her behavior to herself on those
grounds. It's harder for me to understand how she
rationalized what she did to Sophie, although she
repeatedly stated her conviction that Sophie's addictions
and promiscuity only revealed that she was rotten at the
core and there was no hope of redemption. There goes
that old double standard applied to women again, which
certainly couldn't have persisted for so many centuries if
women had not adhered to it. Her reaction to Sophie
seems plausible to me, in the context of the culture of the
1930's.
Isabel was a loyal and supportive wife, an intelligent and
entertaining companion, a woman of great self control
who willed herself into becoming a beauty, and she was
strong enough to listen to Maugham's brutally honest
attacks on her behavior without severing the relationship.
All in all, I found Maugham's portrait of this character
convincing and even attractive.
Through his characters, Maugham makes comments about
American culture. What do you think about the assertion
that in the United States, your value is defined by your
work?
True?
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (41 of 52), Read 43 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:40 AM
My reaction to Isabel was similar to Dottie's. Unlike most
here, I didn't care for Isabel, and considered her to be an
emotional vulture. I don't think Maugham's description of
her lusting for Larry, was a reflection of his own
preferences, but as a brutally honest account of this
woman's basic nature. And, I think (the character)
Maugham was as stunned as the reader by this.
I thought she was highly manipulative from the get go.
Her refusal to marry Larry was not because she thought
them to be incompatible, but because she believed he
would alter his plans for her. It was in essence, an
ultimatum..and I truly believe this. She proceeds later to
provide alcohol to a woman who is trying to change her
life for the man she loves...more than Isabel ever thought
of doing..again, manipulative and completely self serving.
Beej
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (42 of 52), Read 29 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Sunday, February 10, 2002 10:10 PM
Thanks for your take on this, Beej and Dottie. I can see
how this might have been and, perhaps, that is what
Maugham was trying to convey. It would mean that he
was less off the mark than I thought. However, it doesn't
mesh with my sense of Isabel. I didn't find her terribly
admirable in some aspects though I was certainly
impressed with her support of Gray when he was down.
But, I did find her brutally honest most of the time. That
honesty helped her make the right decision about
marrying Larry. She knew that wasn't a life she could lead
and she was right.
Ann, I definitely think that the kind of search that Larry
was undertaking is essentially solitary. I don't think that is
a bad thing unless there are other people involved who
expect to have a more connected relationship.
Ernie, I had the same reaction that you did (and that
Maugham did) about Larry's willingness to go to New York
with no money. I kept rooting for him to put a little money
back...just in case.
Barb
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (43 of 52), Read 28 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Sunday, February 10, 2002 10:40 PM
Rather than thinking Maugham as asexual, I thought he
was quite smitten with Isabel. She was the only character
he describes physically so fully. And you know from his
description that she is a beauty. He has looked her up and
down as only as man can look at a woman, and liked what
he saw. My take on his revulsion by the mask of lust was
that it marred what he saw as her pure beauty and it was
not meant for him.
Dean, I imagine that Larry and Sophie's marriage would
have lasted as long as Larry could have made it last.
Sophie is the type who would have bolted before long.
Nothing that can be can come between me and the full
prospect of my hopes. - W. Shakespeare
MAP
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (44 of 52), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:48 PM
First of all my apologies for changing Isabel's name to
Elisabeth. This may have been due to, what may be called,
an extended Senior Moment.
Isn't it strange that a number of us zeroed in at Isabel's
facial expression of lust which as Maugham saw it,
distorted her pretty face?
Another focal point of this book pertains to the
Maugham-Isabel confrontation. He called a spade a spade
namely that Isabell in fact had killed Sophie. Isabel at first
hedged, then ended up admitting that she tempted
Sophie on purpose to prevent the marriage. But the most
amazing and unexpected happened:
Maugham and Isabel remained on speaking terms and
their relationship did not suffer.
Does "Work" define the people, their social status, etc. in
the U.S. I always believed that this was very much so both
in the US and Europe as well especially prior to WW II.
Having lived both in Central Europe and the US during this
period I can agree to that. But I would say that Europeans
were much more concerned with work-status than
Americans.
Once more, having lived through depression days both in
the US and Europe it is inconceivable that a person would
voluntarily give away whatever money they had.
Ernie
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (45 of 52), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, February 11, 2002 08:18 AM
How does the song go?..'Don't fall in love with a dreamer?'
I don't think any woman would have been suited to deal
with Larry. I take it he was searching for some sort of
meaning to life after witnessing the death of his friend, but
he devoted so much of his life to determine 'meaning,' that
he seemed to sacrifice any real, concrete purpose to his
own life.
He was too ethereal..too otherworldly, for such a practical
person as Isabel.
Beej
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (46 of 52), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Monday, February 11, 2002 09:22 AM
It's interesting that Larry didn't believe in reincarnation
either. He told Maugham that he neither believed or
disbelieved in it.
Regarding Isabel: I think she lost something of herself
when she turned down Larry's marriage proposal.
Regardless of whether or not her marriage to Larry would
have been a success, she did love him; but over the years
something hardened within her. She was not without
compassion, as evidenced by her loyalty and goodness to
Gray after their financial ruin, but there was a lack of
"tenderness" as Maugham told Isabel the last time he saw
her. I thought Isabel's actions toward Sophie to be more
motivated by jealousy rather than to save Larry as she
tells Maugham. If she wasn't going to have Larry then no
one was. Larry was such a resourceful guy that I'm not
ready to assume that his potential marriages to Isabel
and Sophie would have been disasters. Not every
alcoholic/addict is a lost cause and who knows what would
have happened. Sophie was presented as the potential
Mrs. Durrell during her most vulnerable stage of recovery.
Isabel betrayed her heartlessly. In the end Isabel would
have been an unsurpassable social force in her Texas
mansion with Elliott's Monets, money and mentoring.
Robt
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (47 of 52), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, February 11, 2002 09:46 AM
What a great note, Robert. Your insights are almost
always right on the mark, and make things so much
clearer.
I admired Larry. In fact, I fell a little bit in love with him.
But, I believe anybody this idealistic and this absorbed by
spiritual journey, would have been emotionally devastated
by all the realities of marriage and raising children.
Beej
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (48 of 52), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Monday, February 11, 2002 10:56 AM
Robert: Great note. When you say that "something
hardened in Isabel" after her breakup with Larry, I think
you really cut to the chase of her character. It was this
same hardness, I think, that Maugham was troubled by in
that wonderfully erotic scene with Larry in the car, sunlight
on arm hairs, etc. There can be a very fine line between
passion and hardness, and I think Maugham spotted it.
I know Isabel could be charming and even selfless at
times, but I could never really warm up to her, not even at
the beginning. "Willful" is another word that comes to my
mind. Even her relationship with her daughters was a
somewhat formal one; it was Gray they idolized.
I would not put Isabel completely in the class of the Alice
Munro character in the story "The Bear Went Over the
Mountain," who "would be useful in a disaster, taking
shoes from dead bodies in the street," but neither would I
ever want to be on Isabel's bad side for half a second.
There are some women who are almost like a force of
nature in that regard, as Sophie learned the hard way.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (49 of 52), Read 15 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Monday, February 11, 2002 03:15 PM
Dale,
Well I certainly wouldn't want Isabel for a close friend, but
I think I would enjoy socializing with her and watching her
in action from a discrete distance.
Ann
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (50 of 52), Read 15 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Monday, February 11, 2002 04:03 PM
Jody said, "I’m not sure what you mean by, 'any
specifically stated purpose for life must be inadequate'. I’m
curious - can you elaborate?
Here's how I came to it. Although an individual can find a
purpose in life, no one can find a purpose for life. We can
generate concepts only from our experience. Any purpose
which we could state for life would be merely a concept
generated from our experience. Life is always bigger than
our experience. So any purpose which we could name
would be inadequate.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (51 of 52), Read 15 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Monday, February 11, 2002 09:12 PM
This idea of Isabel losing something of herself after she
parted with Larry is interesting, Robt. I think you're right.
It makes sense that Maugham, as writer not narrator,
would have intended that. I had assumed that it was the
process of growing older that did it, but if she could have
maintained the relationship with someone like Larry, it
could have kept those edges softer. Maugham's emphasis
on her lack of tenderness and beauty, that was almost
willed to be so, fits with this.
Barb
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (52 of 52), Read 4 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Karen Slongwhite bookworm@greeneland.com
Date:
Tuesday, February 12, 2002 09:34 AM
As I was reading along in this book, I had a sudden start
when Larry and Isabel first came into the room. I thought,
her finance is Larry Darrell, the writer? So I hopped on
over to my shelf, picked up Justine and realized I was off
by a vowel. Still, Durrell was a contemporary of
Maugham's. The bio in the front of Justine says he was
born in India and lived there for his first 10 years. His first
book was published in 1938, although Justine wasn't
published until 1957. Does anyone know if the two knew
each other or see any similarities between the two? I
haven't actually read anything by Durrell.
I keep coming back to the end of TRE when Maugham
submits that everyone got what they wanted. Not so sure
I agree with him there. In the beginning of the book when
Maugham is speaking directly to the reader, he makes
some patently untrue observations about his book --
namely that it does not end with either a death or a
marriage when in fact we have both. I'm kind of thinking
he's making a neat little statement about them all getting
what they wanted, but not sure if he even believes that
himself.
If you asked any of these people if they had gotten what
they wanted, I think most of them (with the possible
exception of Suzanne) would say no. Gray didn't want the
depression to happen and go through so much struggle.
He just wanted to work continuously. Isabel may have
gotten the security she wanted, but she didn't get Larry
and I think she is more focused on that in many ways than
she is focused on what she does have. Sophie didn't really
want death -- she wanted an intact family and happy
family life. Elliott wanted the social status and I'm sure he
would say he got that, but he was bitterly disappointed at
the end of his life as he saw it all fall away. And Larry may
have been happy the last time Maugham saw him, but
that was prior to his crazy social experiment. Who knows
what really happened with him?
Really, who knows what happened with any of them?
When we leave these characters, most of them are in their
early 30s. They have a lot of life to live still. And how can
you judge a success story as a success story when you
only know about half the story? It seems a bit premature
to declare that these people have had successful lives.
I started reading Half a Life by V S Naipaul this morning.
The father of the main character claims to be Maugham's
inspiration for Larry's Indian spiritual leader. Pretty funny
story about how he came to be sitting in the temple when
Maugham came to India to do research for TRE. Puts a
whole new spin on just how 'real' a spiritual experience is
and how other people perceive the spiritual experience of
others.
Karen
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (53 of 54), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Jody Richael
Date:
Tuesday, February 12, 2002 05:02 PM
Karen - I remember having the same thought that it
seemed premature to state that each character had
succeeding in getting what they wanted out of life when
they were still in the middle of their lives. I also started
wondering if they really did get what they wanted out of
life (I still have a hard time believing Sophie wanted
death). However, I do think they each did get what they
wanted even if they didn't realize it themselves. Each also
had to go through some sort of struggle to achieve what
they really wanted in life. I think Elliot's dissatisfaction with
the social scene in the end was not remorse for his having
made social eminence his main focus in life but remorse
that he was losing it.
Jody
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (54 of 54), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Tuesday, February 12, 2002 05:07 PM
Jody writes:
I think Elliot's dissatisfaction with the social scene in the end
was not remorse for his having made social eminence his
main focus in life but remorse that he was losing it.
Good point, Jody. I agree. Incidentally, it reminds me of
possibly my favorite short-story title from Flannery
O'Connor:
"You Can't Be Any Poorer Than Dead."
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Razor's Edge Discussion (55 of 55), Read 16 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:06 AM
Dale,
I have been looking forward to your comments, your
wisdom and sense of humor. I almost always agree
with your opinion which is no surprise as we are not
strangers to each other.
Karen,
I have read a number of books by both Durrell and
Maugham. While the former is a fine and interesting
writer with a special style and a feel for the country he
writes about, Maugham seems way way superior to
him. His writing is smooth and connected and I feel
close to him. I feel I understand him as a writer and as
a person.
Ernie
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W. Somerset Maugham
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