To: ALL Date: 03/22
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 6:24 PM
POSSESSION by A.S. Byatt
Well, it seems as if people are finishing POSSESSION left
and right, so it seems like a good time to start this
thread. I didn't do a re-read, so anything I have to say
about the book is suspect. I do remembering it being very
different from any other book I had read up until that time.
It did plod a bit at first, at least if you compared it to
John Grisham, but I think the added effort to concentrate
and think paid off. I ended up loving the double story. My
lasting impression is that some people will go to great
lengths to find out any little crumb of information about
any literary figure. Is this to really further knowledge, or
it is to further one's own reputation? Okay, all you guys
who just read it. Ready, set......go.
Sherry
=============== Reply 1 of Note 56 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 03/22
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 8:40 PM
Sherry,
I'm hardly the person to begin these replies, because I
fought the book for weeks. Thanks to the encouragement of a
few CR's, I forced myself to keep going until suddenly the
book grabbed me and wouldn't let go.
I finished the book just today in fact, and when I
finally put it down, I felt enchanted. I need some time to
settle down and assimilate a lot of what I read. Meanwhile
I look forward to the insights I'm sure I'll gain from this
discussion. I know it'll be a good one!
Joy
=============== Reply 2 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/22
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 11:50 PM
This book was a tough one for me. I probably would have
done better with it 10 or 20 years ago, when I was reading
more 19th century novels. Even in some of the parts set in
the present, I felt like Byatt was writing in a consciously
19thcenturyish convoluted style. Whew! I spent one evening
conscientiously slogging through the first part of the book.
At that point I threw in the towel and finished the book by
the next evening. How? I will here admit barefacedly (is
there such a word) to having (whisper) skipped all the
poetry and those endless letters couched in high-falutin'
Victorian prose.
Now you're all gonna tell me I missed the entire essence of
the book. I shall pay close attention.
Ruth, in the west, where it's cooling off
=============== Reply 3 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/23
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 2:06 AM
Ruth,
Ah, well if you, who write poetry and know far more about it
than I do, skimmed the poetry, I don't feel nearly so bad
that I didn't like it. But even the poetry was better than
the fairy stories. I liked the parts of the novel set in the
present very much, and resented some of those long
digressions where the author wrote in different styles and
kept quoting from the work of both past and present
characters. I think Byatt is a brilliant woman and this book
was something of a tour de force for her, but I wished she
would have concentrated more on the plot in the first part
of the book.
I am guessing that there were lots of inside jokes for
academics who are more familiar with Victorian literature.
As Joy pointed out, Byatt's "Victorian" writing is a lot
more difficult to read than the actual Victorian novels I
have read.
By the time I had finished with this book, however, Byatt
had completely won me over. The female characters Christabel
and Ellen are really haunting. What a tragic, tragic
marriage. I think these sexless marriages were not that
uncommon in a time when women were divided into saints and
whores. Several of the literary marriages that Phyllis Rose
covered in PARALLEL LIVES were never consumated.
So what did you all think of the great poet Randolph Henry
Ash?
Ann
=============== Reply 4 of Note 56 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 03/23
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 2:08 AM
Sherry,
I was a history major in college and compounded the error by
going to graduate school. This obssessive concern with the
past and the details of other peoples lives, rather than
one's own, reminded me a lot of why I got disallusioned
with the field.
Ann
=============== Reply 5 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/23
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 2:36 AM
Ruth,
I too skipped the poetry. (Bob said I could.) When
the letters became opaque, I skimmed. The intelligible
letters were lovely, though, and conveyed the overpowering
feeling Ash & Christabel had for each other.
The book seemed a mystery within a romance, or a romance
within a mystery. SPOILER ALERT: I thought that finding out
what was in the unopened letter would resolve the mystery
and the story of Ash & Christabel would end there. When
Byatt took it that one beautiful, unexpected step further,
in the scene with Ash & his little daughter Maia, I was in
heaven. It was such a tender scene.
There was something so clever in the way Byatt had
arranged it so that neither of the final messages had
gotten thru between Ash & Christabel, and yet somehow Ash
had known all along about his daughter. Those final words
in the novel, "...was never delivered", left me hearing
echoes of the whole story over again.
Now I am left wondering how he found his daughter. Does
anyone remember any part of the book which tells us this?
Or did Ash just take a chance and visit Christabel's
sister? Can anyone add to this? -Joy
=============== Reply 6 of Note 56 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 03/23
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 2:37 AM
Sherry & all,
I thought the title of the book was a stroke of genius.
It had so many meanings: The possession of the letters. The
complete possession of a loved one. And the most
overpowering meaning, the state of possession as Ash
explained it to Ellen on p.492: "...I have been in love
with another woman. I could say it was a sort of madness. A
possession, as by daemons. A kind of blinding."
SPOILER ALERT:
I thought Ellen handled the whole thing as well as
could be expected. Her attitude was (p.494) "I don't want
to know anymore...Randolph - it is not BETWEEN US." I
thought this clever point of view was what gave her
strength. It was her way of blocking out the thought of
Ash & Christabel together. And I agreed with her reasoning
in not showing Ash the letter from Christabel. She thinks
on p.490: "I cannot give him your letter, he is calm and
almost happy, how can I disturb his peace of mind at this
time.?"
Does anyone feel Ellen should have shown the letter to
Ash? Would anyone have opened the letter and read it? I
don't know if I would have. I probably would. But Ellen was
smarter than I am. She knew she was better off not
knowing. -Joy
=============== Reply 7 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/23
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 2:28 PM
I would have immediately ripped open that letter. To hell
with principles. I couldn't have resisted my own overly
developed sense of curiosity.
Ruth, eternal nosy Parker
=============== Reply 8 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/23
From: BUYS59A BARBARA HILL Time: 7:28 PM
I would have did what Ellen did, going by the theory that
what you don't know can't hurt you.
Barb Hill
=============== Reply 9 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/23
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 8:32 PM
Ruth,
After you had opened the letter and read what Christabel
had to say, would you have regretted doing that? I think I
would have, because knowing the truth was more painful than
not knowing it.
Joy
=============== Reply 10 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/23
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:14 PM
Sherry, Joy, Ann, Ruth and all,
I mentioned in another note that I have decided not to
reread this novel, because I loved it so much that I am not
ready to reread it. I loved every bit of it, from the novel
that takes place in current time to the Victorian novel to
the poetry. When I first read this book, I at first thought
that the author of the poetry was a real person, and I kept
searching the beginning and end of POSSESSION for the
credits. It took me awhile to understand that Byatt had
written every word. I was so impressed! Shortly after I
finished the book, Byatt came to the TATTERED COVER for a
reading. She read the tale of the "Little Feet", and it
wasn't until I heard her reading that I realized that this
tale was the retelling of what happened to the main
character (the woman) in the Victorian novel. Byatt was
charming and unassuming and I bought an extra copy of this
novel, just so she could sign it for me. Jane who is a
major Byatt fan.
=============== Reply 11 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/23
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 9:30 PM
No, Joy, I don't think I would have regretted. I might
have wished the letter had never come. But I can't stand
being in ignorance of something that affects me. To me it's
worse not knowing and having to imagine.
Jane, I just couldn't read that poetry. Maybe it's because
I was in my novel-reading mode and plowing full speed ahead
and damn the torpedos. Poetry requires a different mindset,
or at least it does for me. Maybe if I met the poems in a
poetry book I would have had more patience.
Ruth, in dank, dreary, dismal California
=============== Reply 12 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/23
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 10:02 PM
Joy,
Well, we are probably hitting on a difference in temperament
here. Absolutely I would have ripped open that letter. I
hate to have ANYTHING unresolved, even though later I
sometimes realize that I should have let well enough alone.
No, I wouldn't have regretted it because for me opening the
letter would be the only option.
And you know, I thought it was cruel of Ellen not to give
that letter to Randolph, although I certainly understand her
not doing it. She seemed to realize at the end that her
whole life had been a lie. She pretended they were very
happy, but in reality her frigidity and the lack of children
must have been terrible for her husband. I think Randolph
had a number of "outside interests", such as the maid whom
he probably got pregnant. However, Christabel was the only
one who was ever a threat to Ellen because she could
challenge him on his own level.
And yeah, I really loved that scene at the end when Randolph
met his daughter. I think he told her that he had coming
looking for her mother. Otherwise, it wasn't really
explained how he came upon her.
Ann
=============== Reply 13 of Note 56 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 03/23
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 10:05 PM
Jane,
How interesting that you got to see Byatt in person. I
imagine that most of the poetry and the stories would be
more meaningful if they were reread with a knowledge of the
entire story. I'm not sure I'm up to rereading them right
now, however. ANTIGONE beckons on Classics Corner.
Ann
=============== Reply 14 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/24
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 9:01 AM
Ruth (and Ann),
Your reasoning is sound, that for you "it's worse not
knowing and having to imagine."
But there's another way to look at it. "Not knowing"
allows me to imagine a scenario more to my liking. I'll go
with THAT one, especially in a case where it makes no
PRACTICAL difference whether I know the truth or not.
Joy, seeing it both ways
=============== Reply 15 of Note 56 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 03/24
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 9:01 AM
Ann,
I agree, in a way it WAS cruel that Ellen didn't show
the letter to Randolph. But in another way, perhaps it
might have upset Randolph to see that the letter caused
Ellen further pain. He loved Ellen too in a way, since he
had shared his whole life with her. I'm sure he was in as
much pain over the way he had hurt Ellen, as he was for the
loss of Christabel. What did Mark Twain say about the fact
that our conscience takes all the joy out of sinning?
Anyway, Randolph was a tormented man, for sure.
I'm not sure the marriage of Ellen and Randolph was a
complete lie. He must have felt SOMETHING for Ellen.
Certainly it wasn't an ideal marriage. But how many
marriages ARE ideal? Sometimes when it's good "at night",
it's bad during the day.("A woman who marries a man without
money has happy nights and sorry days." Just a joke.)
And yes, I guess Randolph had come looking for
Christabel when he found Maia, but I've just reread thru
that part of the story and I don't see that it says that in
so many words. Perhaps I've missed it somehow.
Joy
=============== Reply 16 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/25
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 1:15 PM
To all:
I am wondering if any of you detected a double meaning
in the poem which Ash wrote to Ellen when he sent her the
jet brooch. The poem is on p. 249 (hardcover) and I'll
include it at the end of this post.
Ash starts out by saying in his poem, "I love a
parodox." That alerted me. The 4th line of the poem says,
"A life in death but not funereal yet." Is that a reference
to the nature of the brooch as well as the nature of their
marriage and their love? (not dead yet? still alive
even if seriously in danger?)("vanished light"-6th line)
In the second verse he says, "So may our love, safe in
your heart from harm Shine on, when we are gray, and make
us bright." Does he intimate that though he is endangering
their love, he hopes that she will keep it alive (in her
heart, safe from harm) despite him, and help him thru his
torment to brighten their lives as they grow old together?
Am I imagining things?
-Joy (The complete poem follows below.):
"I love a paradox and so I send
White Yorkshire roses carved in sombre jet
Their summeer frailty fixed here without end
A life in death but not funereal yet.
As ancient forests in their black deaths warm
Our modern hearths with primal vanished light
So may our love, safe in your heart from harm
Shine on, when we are grey, and make us bright."
i.e., Ash has created a metaphor for their love...petrified
wood, buried, but still able to create warmth. -J.
=============== Reply 17 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/25
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 7:42 PM
Joy,
Well, for some reason I don't see Randolph as that
conflicted about Ellen and Christabel. Ellen denied him sex
and I think he felt fully justified in seeking it from
Christabel, as long as he stayed married to Ellen. If he
felt guilty for something, I would like to think it was for
the effect of the affair on Christabel. He made it clear
from the start that he would never leave his wife.
And how about that maid? Don't you think he was her baby's
father?
Ann
=============== Reply 18 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/25
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 7:46 PM
Joy,
"A life in death" .. maybe being married to Ellen made him
feel like he might as well be dead.
Ann, sorry she is feeling so vindicative towards Ellen
tonight. I felt great pity for her while I was reading the
book, but overly passive people always frustrate me in the
end.
=============== Reply 19 of Note 56 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 03/25
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 10:07 PM
Ann,
I see your point about Randolph. Guess I'm just a
sentimental fool who thinks a man will love the woman he's
married to, in some way, no matter what, especially if she's
done the best she could. However, I guess enforced celibacy
in a marriage can have some drastic effects.
I think Randolph felt bad about Christabel's fate too.
As I said, he was a tormented man. But then again, to be
completely objective, Christabel knew what she was getting
into, being attracted to a married man. She was a victim of
her own weaknesses. She did try to end things before they
went too far, but Randolph was very persuasive. I feel
sorry for the position all three of them found themselves
in. That's what the story was all about.
Yes, I was suspicious about Randolph's being the
father of the maid's baby, but it was never confirmed.
Joy, who sounds as if she's from Missouri
=============== Reply 20 of Note 56 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 03/25
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 10:07 PM
Ann,
"So may our love...shine on..." doesn't sound like he
feels as if he might as well be dead. There's more to life
than sex. However, there's always that quote: "Sex is like
money. It only matters when you don't have any."
Joy
=============== Reply 21 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/25
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 10:45 PM
Okay, since I skipped almost all of the "inserts" in this
book, I'd like to hear from those of you who didn't. What
was the author's purpose in loading the book with these
lumps, like suet in a blood pudding? It certainly slowed
down the action. How does all this stuff relate to the
"primary" story line? Do you think the book would have
worked if a strong-willed editor had weeded out all this
secondary indulgence and insisted on only the one story?
Ruth, who spent too much money in the nursery today, instead
of the bookstore
=============== Reply 22 of Note 56 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 03/25
From: REZG40D KARIN HANCHER Time: 11:30 PM
Jane, I was so glad to read your post -- I felt very
unenlightened when I started POSSESSION and saw all this
wonderful poetry and had never heard of the poet! I even
went to the encyclopedia. Was Byatt really into the
Victorian poets to be able to create all that in such
realistic form and language? I remember the longish poem
about some insect, or microscopic bug thing ... that seemed
so typical. And in spite of the subject matter, it was a
compelling poem. Karin, who needs
to locate her copy up in the (shudder) attic so I can try to
participate in this thread
=============== Reply 23 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/26
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 0:26 AM
Ruth - Do you mean "weed out" the poems? What "one
story" did you suggest weeding out? What do you mean
by "secondary indulgence", the story within the story?
Maud & Roland's story wouldn't have worked without
Christabel & Randolph's story. The development of the
relationship between C & R was an integral part of Maud &
Roland's search for the letters. Each step in M & R's
search revealed more of C & R's story. And each step in C &
R's story, furthered the search M & R were making, and
furthered THEIR love story. One was dependent on the other.
As far as the long poems go, I didn't read them and
it worked fine for me that way. -Joy
=============== Reply 24 of Note 56 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 03/26
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 0:26 AM
Jane,
I've been meaning to ask you this. You mentioned the
tale of the "Little Feet". Where will we find this tale? I
searched thru the book (POSSESSION) and couldn't find it.
If it's in the book, could you give us the page number?
Does anyone know where this tale is?
Joy
=============== Reply 25 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/26
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 0:59 AM
Joy, but what if Byatt had merely presented the
Christabel/Randolph story as a series of interwoven
flashbacks? How would that have been different? Just
wondering what everyone's take on this is. I don't have an
ax or even and adze to grind, just interested.
BTW, did you notice how even the present day names had a
19th century Romantic bent. Maude and Roland, etc.
Ruth, whose library copy of this book has a fine
Pre-Raphaelite painting by Edward Burne-Jones
=============== Reply 26 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/26
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 2:34 AM
Ruth,
I think that the Christabel/Randolph story by itself
would have lacked the sense of mystery that Maud & Roland's
search gave it. Perhaps we would have concentrated more on
the yearning and painful ordeal of the lovers, and on
Ellen's dilemma.
What do you think? Did you mean that you wouldn't do it
with letters, but with flashbacks instead?
Any other opinions?
Joy, who has the same painting ("The Beguiling of Merlin")
on the cover of my library copy. I even looked up Merlin in
the encyclopedia in an effort to understand the painting.-J.
=============== Reply 27 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/26
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:08 AM
I'm jumping in here with very little remembrance of the
actual events. But I do have some memory of the way the book
was put together. Ruth, if it had just been flashbacks, the
reader would not have had a sense of discovery. I was
fascinated by the way the story unfolded. Double unfolded. I
remember getting the sense that I was the one doing the
research and that I was finding out all these interesting
details and reading between the lines. I was amazed that I
could be so swept away by something that at first seemed so
foreign to me. It made me stretch.
Sherry
=============== Reply 28 of Note 56 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 03/26
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 11:42 AM
Good point, Sherry. I never thought of that. The sense of
the reader doing the discoveries.
Ruth, who didn't do much discovering, because she cheated
=============== Reply 29 of Note 56 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 03/26
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 12:38 PM
Sherry,
I like your term, "sense of discovery"...and your
words "the way the story unfolded. Double unfolded". So
well put. And your words "Getting the sense that I was...
reading between the lines", also said it so well.
I always love it when someone expresses something I felt
but was unable to put into words. You always do it so
well. Thank you! Thank you!
Joy, who could only come up with the words, "sense of
mystery", good, but no cigar!
=============== Reply 30 of Note 56 =================
To: REZG40D KARIN HANCHER Date: 03/26
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:42 PM
Karin,
I think that Byatt is a wonder! BABEL TOWER, the book I am
reading has a novel within her main story, and it has a
completely different style from the main story. She is so
versatile.
Ruth, I can't believe you think that all of the poetry and
"inserts" should be taken out. That is part of the charm of
this novel. Jane in beautiful Colorado
=============== Reply 31 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/26
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:45 PM
Joy,
I will look up the story that she read and get back to you.
Jane who is enjoying BABEL TOWER.
=============== Reply 32 of Note 56 =================
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 03/26
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 10:20 PM
Jane, I never, ever said that all the poetry and inserts
should be taken out. I just posed a "what if" to get some
discussion going as to their contribution to the book.
Ruth
=============== Reply 33 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/27
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 12:52 PM
Ruth,
I thought your "what if" question was a good one. I
guess that as a teacher, you're very skilled at coming up
with questions which encourage thinking.
As an added benefit, the question you asked brought us
Sherry's insightful and articulate post relating to why
POSSESSION was such an enjoyable novel.
Joy, enjoying this thread
=============== Reply 34 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/27
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 12:52 PM
To all:
I'd like to quote some lines from the prologue of
"PARALLEL LIVES - Five Victorian Marriages", which I
borrowed from the library yesterday. The author, Phyllis
Rose, says:
P.12-I prefer to see the sexless marriages I discuss as
examples of flexibility rather than of abnormality. Some
people might say that they are not really marriages because
they are sexless; it's a point I'd want to argue. There
must be other models of marriage - of long-term association
between two people - than the very narrow one we are all
familiar with, beginning with a white wedding gown, leading
to children, and ending in death, or, these days
increasingly often, in divorce."
P.14-In general, the similarities between marriages then
and now seem to me greater than the differences. Then as
now certain problems of adjustment, focussing usually on
sex or relatives, seem typical of early stages of marriage,
and others, for example, absence of excitement, seem typical
of later stages. In good marriages, then as now, shared
experience forms a bond increasingly important with time,
making discontents seem minor. And then as now, love also
tends to walk out the door when poverty flies in the
window." I tend to agree. How about you? -Joy
=============== Reply 35 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/27
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:37 PM
Okay Ruth,
As usual, I was in a great hurry and only skimmed all of the
notes on this thread, so I must not have read yours
carefully enough. You know how it is with hurried school
teachers. Anyway, I can't answer your question because it
has been too long since I read the book.
Joy, I haven't had a chance to look up the section I meant,
but I will over the weekend.
Jane who wishes she had more time for CR.
=============== Reply 36 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/27
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 11:51 PM
Much of the discussion of POSSESSION so far has centered on
the lengthy excerpts of poetry, fairy tales, and critical
analysis purportedly written by Byatt's characters. Ruth and
Joy skipped over a lot of them, Jane felt they were
integral to the book, and I read them, but felt that they
often interfered with the flow of the story. Sometimes, it
almost seemed that Byatt was just showing off her ability to
write in a great variety of different voices, 19th century
ones as well as those of various schools of 20th century
literary criticism.
Awhile back when we were discussing ANGELS AND INSECTS, Dale
Short was kind enough to send me an interview from
Publisher's Weekly with A.S. BYATT. In this interview Byatt
talked about how difficult it was to get POSSESSION
published in the United States, in part because of these
long inserts. Editor Susan Kamil wanted the book if she
could "take out most of the poetry and many of the letters,
for a start." Byatt wasn't feeling very well anyway, and
when Kamil started talking about everything that would have
to go, she "fainted dead away"! The book was eventually
published uncut in the U.S. after Byatt won the Booker
prize. At any rate, I guess we can be certain that Byatt
considered these selections critical. I wouldn't begrudge
her any of the letters. I loved the way they built suspense
and led the reader on a journey of discovery, but I could
have done without a lot of the poetry, almost all of the
fairy tales, and the horrible (I guess that was the point)
biographical selections by Mortimer Cropper. Lenora's
feminist critique of Christabel's "Melusina" was so
absolutely awful that it was almost good, if you know what I
mean.
Since this book was my suggestion, I did a little extra
credit work and checked out the reviews of POSSESSION in
Contemporary Literary Criticism. I figured these poems were
imitating someone's style and I wanted to know whose. Almost
all of the reviews mentioned Christina Rosetti and Emily
Dickinson as models for Christabel's writing. Robert
Browning was most frequently mentioned as a model for Ash.
Just goes to show how little I know about Browning. I know
his narrative poem "My Last Duchess" and the poem "Home
Thoughts from Abroad", with the famous line "Oh, to be in
England now that April's there". However, they don't seem
nearly dense or obscure enough to be models for Randolph
Ash.
Byatt has been a professor of literature and has published
literary criticism of Victorian authors. She was a
contributor to THE MAJOR VICTORIAN POETS RECONSIDERED and
has edited the works of George Eliot and Robert Browning. I
imagine that someone who has an academic background in
Victorian literature would appreciate Byatt's
accomplishments in imitating it more than the ordinary
reader.
What did you all think of the ending? I loved it, outrageous
coincidences and all. A couple of reviewers said it reminded
them of Dickens, particularly BLEAK HOUSE. As those of us
know who recently read this on Classics Corner, Dickens
loved revealing cases of hidden identity and tying up all
those loose ends.
Ann
=============== Reply 37 of Note 56 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 03/28
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 1:18 AM
Well, mostly what all the letters, poetry, etc. stuff did
for me was make me feel guilty for not having the patience
to wade through it. I applaud those of you who did. I
especially hated the literary nit-pickers arguing as to
whether Ash had put on his right shoe before his left. Do
you think that ghastly "feminist" criticism was a put on?
I must say that the scene at the graveyard, reminded me of
nothing so much as a BBC television production. It had all
the elements, mystery, suspense, danger of being discovered,
mistaken identity and a nice conclusional tying up of loose
ends.
Ruth
=============== Reply 38 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/28
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 6:26 AM
Ruth,
What can you tell us about that painting, "The Beguiling
of Merlin" on the cover of "Possession"? Can you give us
some background?
Joy
=============== Reply 40 of Note 56 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 03/28
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 7:29 AM
Ann,
That was very interesting about the editor who wanted to
take out most of the poetry. As you say, it's there for
those who enjoy it. The reader can take it or leave it.
The ending of the book did tie up the loose ends nicely.
However, when I think of the end of the story, my mind goes
to Randolph's meeting with his daughter. That was the nice
surprise for me at the end. For me, the revealing of Maud's
identity was minor compared to the revealing of Maia's
existence and her meeting with her father.
Joy
=============== Reply 41 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/28
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 10:39 AM
Oh, Ruth, I absolutely feel that the feminist criticism was
a put on, but from what little feminist criticism I have
read it is all too easy to parody.
Ann
=============== Reply 42 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/28
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 10:40 AM
Joy,
I have a hard time thinking of an unconsumated marriage as
simply a more flexible arrangement. Of the relationships
covered in PARALLEL LIVES, the lack of sexual desire or
ability to perform seemed to be one-sided, if I remember
correctly. Kind of rough on the other partner, especially if
she wanted children.
However, I think you have rightly pointed out that there
are stages in marriage. Reminds me of those books I used to
read when my children were very young (I've given up now)
outlining the different stages of development during the
first year of life, second year of life, etc. etc. Maybe
someone should write one about the stages of marriage, if it
hasn't already been done.
Christabel would argue that intellectual compatibility
rather than passion is more important in the end. I thought
that the undelivered letter she wrote to Randolph when she
was an old woman was beautiful. In this she regretted not
those few days of passion "which might have been almost
anyone's passion, it seems", but the loss of our "trusting
minds which recognized each other." Randolph was an
intellectually stimulating equal who understood her passion
to write as no one else ever would or could. Looking back on
her life, that seemed the real loss. And then she went on to
say:
"I would rather have lived alone, so, if you would have the
truth. But since that might not be--and is granted to almost
none--I thank God for you--if there must be a Dragon--that
He was You."
What a beautiful letter of love and forgiveness--how sad
that Ellen kept it from Ash.
Ann, weighing in on the side of Christabel, all the way
here, as I think Byatt intended.
=============== Reply 43 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/28
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 1:20 PM
The painter, Edward Burne-Jones, whose painting is on the
cover of POSSESSION, was a member of the self-named
Pre-Raphaelite group of the mid 1800's. The Pre-Raphaelites
represented a Romantic reaction against Realism. Realism
(capital R) doesn't just mean realism, where things are
painted in a realistic way. It was a movement in which the
artists attempted to show life and things as they really
were. Courbet was an early proponent of Realism.
Especially striking is his famous "Stonebreakers", which is
anything but a pretty painting.
The Pre-Raphaelites wanted to return the look of painting to
the Late Medieval and early Rennaisance days prior to
Raphael, hence the name. They were heavily influenced by
Botticelli (Venus Rising from the Sea, Primavera). That's
where all those decorative curves come from. The forms of
the Pre-Raphaelites were echoed later in the Art Nouveau
movement of the early 20th century. The Pre-Raphaelites
wanted beauty and Romanticism as opposed to Realism, they
wanted art to elevate and instruct. Their work is filled
with symbols and often has a bit of a narrative twist.
I believe Burne-Jones illustrated some Tennyson. Another
member of group was Dante Gabriel Rosetti, who was either
the poet Christina Rosetti's father or her brother, I forget
which. So you can see that this cover painting has a real
tie-in to the book. As far as the story of this particular
painting goes, I don't really know. I poked around a bit in
my books, but I don't have much on the Pre-Raphaelites and
this painting is not mentioned in any of my sources.
Ruth, who hopes this isn't more than you wanted to know
=============== Reply 44 of Note 56 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 03/28
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 2:17 PM
Ann,
I understand your point of view on every point. How true
that intellectual compatiblility is so important, as well
as understanding of the other's emotions and passions, (in
this case for writing).
Yes, Christabel's letter to Ash was beautiful. Thanks
for the quotes. It IS sad that Ash never saw that letter.
As you say, Byatt probably felt more for Christabel's
situation than for Ellen's. That's a good point as well.
At the same time there IS something to be said for
Ellen's situation too. Reminds me of the old saying: "There
are three sides to every story, his side, her side, and the
truth." And then we're back to the oldest question of all:
"What is truth?"
My mom used to say, "You can't build happiness on
somebody else's sadness." I guess this book proves that.
Joy, wondering why they say that opposites attract when it
comes to romance.
=============== Reply 45 of Note 56 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 03/30
From: DHGK37A ERNEST BELDEN Time: 3:34 PM
Sherry, Ann, Barb, Joy, et all. I posted a note of comments
about 4 days ago and it looks to me it disappeared. I do
remember that when I touched the final key the phone line
failed. That's my luck. After reading a few of your
comments I would just be repeating things but I will do so
just the same. Fantastic book, fantastic writing, Byatt may
well be one of the greatest contemporary writers. She got
to a slow start, but, as Steve wrote, things were picking up
after a while and I got to the point when I could not put
the book down. I could understand the characters, they were
well thought out. I was somewhat puzzled about Christobel
but her last letter pretty much rectified that. Someone
commented about the intellectual vs the physical bond that
C. remarked about and how the former turned out to be more
important. (I don't know if I stated that this well
enough). I also liked Ellen and was rather amazed about the
unconsummated marriage - namely mentioned in a literary
work. I have seen a good deal of that in my work and
observed one such relationship among people I know
personally. All this is a rather sad state of affairs for a
number of reasons. I had to skip most of the poetry, it
would have taken me too long and somehow it did not touch
me. The ending was very well put together and - yes _ I do
like a happy ending. I was delighted that Ash saw his child
and that the child turned out to be a fine person. It is
hard for me to comment on the pain that Ellen and C. caused
each other, whithought their fault. I will never regret
having read this book, and hope that the other Slow Mo CR
readers feel the same way. Ernie
=============== Reply 46 of Note 56 =================
To: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Date: 03/31
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 0:14 AM
Joy,
I know that you like to take notes on the books you read, so
I couldn't resist posting my favorite lines from POSSESSION.
Number one favorite, regarding those literary sleuths Roland
and Maude : "He slept curled against her back, a dark comma
against her elegant phrase." (p. 458)
I also liked this description of the timid and tentative
Roland: "He thought of himself as an application form, for a
job, a degree, a life..." (p. 14) And the following really
struck a chord of recognition: "silence was also Roland's
only form of aggression." (p.16)
One more, and then I'd like to hear some of them you wrote
down:
"A beautiful woman, Simone Weil said, seeing herself in the
mirror, knows, 'This is I.' An ugly woman knows, with equal
certainty, "This is not I.'" (p.64)
I have also been thinking some more about the paradox poem
on p. 249 which you posted. Randolph was with Christabel
and sent Ellen a jet brooch. The following lines from the
poem describe it:
"White Yorkshire roses carved in sombre jet
Their summer frailty fixed here without end
A life in death but not funereal yet."
I think those white roses stood for Ellen. On p. 500, we
have Randoph's love letter to Ellen during their courtship,
in which he goes into raptures about the beautiful white
roses which Ellen gave him. They are many shades of white,
snow, cream, and ivory, but as yet they are still buds.
Randolph says that he is willing to wait patiently until
they unfold (i.e., until he can actually possess Ellen).
Later we are told that Ellen plans to carry a spray of those
white, scentless hothouse roses to his funeral (p. 502).
The white roses must symbolize purity, but I wonder if they
don't also convey the idea of sterility (they are scentless,
hothouse roses) and death ("A life in death.")
However, if these white roses symbolize Ellen, I wonder what
the significance is of that dead wreath of white rosebuds
which Christabel keeps (p. 420). I think this is the wreath
she got at the seance, supposedly from Blanche. Any
thoughts?
Ann
=============== Reply 47 of Note 56 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 03/31
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 5:05 PM
Ruth,
Thanks for taking the time to reply about the art
history. I always enjoy peeking into new worlds. Eventually
I become overwhelmed when I delve too far, but it's fun
just the same. Just takes a lot of energy, unless one is
suddenly engrossed.
It would be interesting to read a thread on the CR Salon
concerning all the different opinions about what art
should be. And how does one tell the real from the sham. I
heard someone say that the real value of art is established
by the price people will pay for it. -Joy, too un-
informed to have an opinion...but "I know what I like!"
=============== Reply 1 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/02
From: XJKD19F JOY HUOTT Time: 10:15 AM
Ann,
Interesting about the white roses. I haven't a clue
about what the white rosebuds symbolize.
I enjoyed reading all the quotes you chose. I've chosen
this one to post (from my notes):
p.198: "I may call myself your friend, may I not? For my
true thoughts have spent more time in your company than in
anyone else's, these last two or three months, and where my
thoughts are, there am I, in truth..."
Joy, late in replying because of the post-holiday
exhaustion.
=============== Reply 3 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/04
From: DHGK37A ERNEST BELDEN Time: 2:12 PM
Ann, just read your comments on Possession and pretty much
agree with what you said especially as pertains to the end
which reminded you of Dicken's Bleak House. Ernie
=============== Reply 4 of Note 5 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 04/06
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 9:49 AM
This is a maddening book to read when you can't read
sections of it at a time, instead of a few pages. When we
went to Florida, I could sit on the beach and immerse
myself in it...much better experience.
I love Byatt's attention to visual and tactile detail.
There's a very sensual feel to everything she writes, even
separate from the more traditional love scenes. I keep
remembering her comment about Eliot in the interview I
heard with her that "she gives you everything." I thought
her description of Maude's apartment was fascinating.
While giving you the sense of something very cold and
austere, which also gave you Maude's personality and
situation, it was also enjoyable to just visualize.
And bathrooms! I love all of her descriptions of
bathrooms, Maude's, Cropper's, the one at Sir George's
castle where they stayed. Everything on the Yorkshire trip
of both couples is so lovingly described. Roland and Maude
took a picnic of "Fresh brown bread, white Wensleydale
cheese, crimson radishes, yellow butter, scarlet tomatoes,
round bright green Granny Smiths and a bottle of mineral
water. They took no books....Neither of them had ever seen
or smelled such extravagance of wildflowers in so small a
space. The warm air brought the smell of the flowers in
great gusts and lingering intense canopies." Somehow, this
all contrasts with my image of Byatt with her precise,
intellectual British accent. My own stereotypes crumble.
I also found an excellent article about POSSESSION on
Homework Helper that was in New Republic in 1991 by Ann
Hulbert. One of the things she highlights is the wonderful
contrast between Maude/Roland and Christabel/Randolph.
We think of the Victorian age as so repressed and yet Maude
and Roland in their intellectual world are far more cold.
She says, "What better way to scrutinize the postmodern,
post-Freudian, "knowing" attitude than to compare it with
the doubting, inhibited Victorian spirt? Especially since
the juxtaposition offers an unexpected twist: lives in the
age of sexual ultrasophistication turn out to be frigid,
and passion thrives in the age of repression." Very
interesting observation, I thought, because that comparison
kept slamming into me throughout the last 3rd of the book.
Maude and Roland seem like deprived children discovering
timidly all the joy and pain that Randolph and Christabel
experience.
Hubbell also points out that Byatt is a literary critic,
expert on Eliot, the Romantics and Iris Murdoch, who is
partially using this forum to vent a mounting frustration
with modern critical rhetoric. Here, she gets to puncture
it with her almost caricatures of Cropper and Leonora Stern.
And, Hubbell highlights the exchange between Maude and
Roland in which they say that they've never been much
interested in the personal lives of the poets...he's a
textual scholar and she "can be psycholanalytical without
being personal." Yet, their discoveries about the poets
personal lives change much of what has been assumed about
their writing. Then, at the end, she still cautions
against too much of that.
Barb
=============== Reply 5 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/06
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 9:49 AM
Regarding the controversy about the poetry and fairy tales,
I don't think I can give a definite opinion either way.
They definitely made the reading go slower. But, they
seemed to get better as I went along...or else I got more
familiar with the style. The poetry was more difficult for
me than the fairy tales. I sort of like that fairy tale
style so, once I got into it, it was enjoyable. I liked
Christabels' "The Fairy Melusine" probably because of all
the sens=============== Note 56 ==========
last section:
"And she held out the cup, and he came down
And took it from her and drank deep therein.
All dazed with glamour was he, in her gaze.
She ministered unto his extreme need
And his face took the brightness of her glance
As dusty heather takes the tumbling rays
Of the sun's countenance and shines them back.
Now was he hers, if she should ask of him
Body or soul, he would have offered all.
And seeing this, at last, the Fairy smiled."
Hmmm...that's a pretty engulfing piece of writing for me.
Throughout the book, I vacillated between feeling that
Byatt had set up an intellectual exercise for herself which
could detract from the story as a whole, and being amazed
at the sensuality that she projects into these old
forms...where I, in my ignorance, don't expect it. Barb
=============== Reply 6 of Note 5 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/06
From: REZG40D KARIN HANCHER Time: 10:10 AM
Barbara, I also took this book to the beach and was able to
get into it rather quickly there. However, I wouldn't call
it your typical "beach book"! Someone posted earlier about
the characters' names (was it Ruth?) and I do remember
somewhere hearing or reading that all the names of the
characters were meaningful. The only analogy I remember was
that of Childe Roland on his Quest. Any other suggestions
out there?
Karin, always on her own
quests
=============== Reply 7 of Note 5 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/07
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 9:16 AM
Barb,
Excellent comments, as usual. And I foolishly asked on CC if
you had done any reading on your vacation.
I especially liked your comment that you vacillated between
feeling that Byatt had set up this book as an intellectual
exercise and being taken by surprise by its unexpected
sensuality. That sums up my reaction as well.
Barb, I was also interested to hear that you liked the
ending, as I think did all who have contributed to this
thread. One of the reviews in Contemporary Literary
Criticism was by Anita Brookner, who overall gave the book
an excellent review. However, she didn't like the ending,
writing, "..it is a Romance in the original sense of the
word, e.e. something fictive. The concept is applied to the
conclusion, which I found flurried and almost impertinently
unconvincing." Oh, Anita, lighten up! I guess the notion
of a happy ending is foreign to Ms. Brookner, whose books
have also been discussed here on CR.
You contrasted the romance of Roland and Maude with that of
Randolph and Christabel, and I agree with what you said. One
thing that both couples have in common, however, is a
terrible fear that by giving into passion they will lose
their self-possession, their control, their identity. This
seemed to me a pretty strong subtheme.
Christabel to Randolph: "I cannot let you burn me up."
Randolph, thinking of Christabel: "He would teach her that
she was not his possession, he would show her she was free."
Later -- "I was possessed."
And then there are the uniquely suited Randolph and Maude,
who take the need for separateness one step further and
both dream of "a clean bed in a clean empty room where
nothing is asked or to be asked." You can understand
Roland's attitude a bit. He has just come out of that
claustrophobic relationship with the bitter Val, but Maude
seems to be a regular ice princess. She comments about the
curse of being beautiful because people want to treat you as
a possession (poor, baby), and she has had that unfortunate
relationship with Fergus, a character so superficial it is
hard to see how he could make much of an impact on anyone.
But she never seems quite alive to me, perhaps because her
motivation is not that well developed. I prefer, Christabel,
whose face is "not kind", but "clear, sharp, and quick," who
goes off with Ash on that ill fated trip with a feeling of
compulsion, of necessity.
So, what did you think of Roland and Maude, Barb?
Jane, if you are still reading this thread, I would
appreciate your recommending another Byatt book. Although I
found parts of POSESSION dense and difficult, there was so
much that I liked that I want to continue reading her.
Ann
=============== Reply 8 of Note 5 =================
To: REZG40D KARIN HANCHER Date: 04/07
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 9:17 AM
Karin,
Well, the name Ash can be a symbol of either life, if we
think of the tree by that name, or of death if we think of
it in terms of ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The "Ash
Factory", where scholars study Randolph Ash, is jokingly
referred to as "the crematorium." I think this is Byatt's
way of calling attention to the way these characters bury
themselves in the past, as opposed to living in the present.
Ashes are also the remnants of fire, and perhaps, by
extension, of passion. Blackadder (adder = viper) seems
pretty obvious. In a review of this book, I read that
Tennyson wrote a poem about a Maude, but I don't know enough
to recognize the literary reference. Also, one of the
reviewers in CONTEMPORARY LITERARY CRITICISM pointed out
that there was a 19th century German poet, novelist, and
writer of fairy tales and Nordic epics named Baron de la
Motte Fouque, who was perhaps a model for the writing of
both Christabel and Ash.
I think that "cropper" is a British slang word, but I am not
sure. Anyone have any ideas about that? Roland's nickname is
"Mole," which seems fitting since he lives in a basement
apartment and lives such a reclusive life. And do you
suppose that Christabel was really a character in one of
Coleridge's poems, or did Byatt just make that up?
Ann
=============== Reply 9 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/07
From: UHUB31A D RANDALL Time: 12:45 PM
Ann -- I have been peeking in on this thread and contemplate
reading Possession before too long. Intriguing info here
(and I never concern myself with knowing too much about a
book -- once I'm into it, all I know of it gets locked
away). The 'cropper' reference you made -- there's an old
saying about 'coming a cropper' -- meaning coming up short
or coming to no good -- would that fit? I have my new
Tennyson somewhere here -- will check that reference and let
you know what I find on it. Enjoying these posts! Dottie,
still turning pages in The Turning Point!
=============== Reply 10 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/07
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 3:23 PM
Ann, there's a line of poetry that goes "Come into the
garden, Maud, sweet is the night air." I think it's
Tenneyson, but I'd have to look it up to be sure.
Ruth, writing while Sherry is napping in the guest room
=============== Reply 11 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/07
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 9:28 PM
Ann,
Christabel and Maude were kind of fun for me to compare.
Even though Christabel was afraid of being "burned up", she
has the capacity for fire. There's so much passion in her
about everything, her poetry, her independence, her ideals,
and her sexuality. I wonder about Maude's capacity for any
of this. I'm guessing that Byatt meant to show her as
imprisoned by the discipline of her academic life and by
her fear of the loss of her self to someone like Fergus.
Christabel tried to withdraw from the world too but still
retained that fire. Maude becomes an ice cube. I thought
her encounter with Fergus was interesting too. He
obviously woke up something within her, but she's sort of
attracted and repelled at the same time. Leonora has
somewhat the same effect on her. She seems slightly
attracted and yet afraid of being engulfed.
I liked Byatt's brand of feminism. She poked
affectionate fun at Leonora who saw relationships to
feminist issues in *everything* no matter how far she had
to stretch it. But, the efforts of the other women in the
story to define themselves were always articulated in
interesting ways. And, yet the men were just as
sympathetically presented.
In general, I much preferred Ash and Christabel to Roland
and Maude, but I kind of thought Byatt intended that.
There's so much more life in them. Even though Roland
(particularly) and Maude were in the process of "finding
themselves" at the end, I didn't think that either of them
were ever going to be passionate people. You know, the
more I think about this, the more I realize how much I
liked Christabel. BTW, Bruce (my brother) has been telling
me forever how much I would like this book. I need to
e-mail him and tell him my reaction.
Oh, and you really got me thinking with your comment
about Ash being responsible for the maid's pregnancy. I
didn't catch that at all, but I'll bet you're right. Why
else even introduce that fact to the story?
In Hubbell's article that I got from HH, she also implies
that POSSESSION is Byatt's effort to spring free from
doing literary criticism. I could see that interpretation
of a lot of what she says, but I had the impression that
she had been writing for quite some time prior to
this...maybe not anything that sold to this magnitude, but
writing. Do you know?
And, I liked the fun of that ending. Like Ruth said, it
reminded me of a show on the BBC, but I liked the way she
tied up the threads. My only question was that it sounded
like Cropper found that box *outside* the coffin.
Didn't you think that Ellen put the box inside the coffin?
Or, am I just reading one or the other of the situations
wrong? In the one Brookner book I read, her ending tended
to not really be an ending. It was one of those possibly
more realistic endings in which the main character is just
going to "keep on keepin' on." I don't mind that
sometimes, but Byatt's ending fit more with the mystery
quality of the story.
And, yes, I definitely read in Florida. Every morning
after my walk down the beach at 8:00 AM, I settled into a
beach chair and alternated chapters with long gazes out
into the waves and skyline. At noon, I left to meet Tom
after he finished a morning of golf and we did family
things together for the rest of the day...and, of course, I
read at night. It was truly heaven. I had a hard time
re-entering reality at work today. Barb
=============== Reply 12 of Note 5 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 04/07
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 11:59 PM
And there's another bit that goes "Come into the garden,
Maude, that black bat night has flown."
But I don't know who wrote it either.
Theresa
=============== Reply 13 of Note 5 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 04/08
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 0:40 AM
Theresa, I looked it up. Your quote is indeed Tennyson.
This leaves me wondering where my quote is from.
Ruth, who ought to know better than to quote stuff from the
sieve in her head
=============== Reply 14 of Note 5 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/08
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 10:43 AM
Yes, Barb, Christabel was a far more interesting character
than the frigid Maude. I had trouble envisioning all that
headgear Maude wore to conceal those lovely golden locks.
She must have presented quite a sight.
I had to return POSSESSION to the library, but I remember
all those knowing looks that the maid kept giving Ellen,
like she couldn't believe she didn't "get it."
That's why I thought Ash was the father. I wondered about
the box being buried outside the casket also. I just assumed
that when you bury something with someone, you put it next
to them. However, I was relieved that Byatt spared us the
gory details of decomposed bodies.
I agree completely with your remarks about Byatt's brand of
feminism. She is interested in showing strong women, but can
also present sympathetic males. (Although at one point in
POSSESSION, I did make a note to myself that Randolph was
something of a prig). I thoroughly enjoyed her making fun of
feminist criticism. I have run into this type of criticism
a few times when I have checked out books on Homework
Helper, and it is hard for me to believe it is written
seriously. Talk about writing with an agenda! It doesn't
surprise me that Bruce, with his love or poetry and
knowledge of literary criticism, liked this book. Glad you
did too.
Byatt's other fiction before POSSESSION includes THE SHADOW
OF THE SUN (1964), THE GAME (1967), THE VIRGIN IN THE GARDEN
(1978), STILL LIFE (1986), and SUGAR AND OTHER STORIES
(1987).
POSSESSION was published in 1990, ANGELS AND INSECTS in
1992, THE MATISSE STORIES in 1994, and THE DJINN IN THE
NIGHTENGALE'S EYE in 1995.
Ann
=============== Reply 15 of Note 5 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 04/08
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 10:43 AM
Dottie, Ruth, and Theresa,
Thanks for tracking down those references for me. I knew I
could count on Constant Readers to help me out.
Ann
=============== Reply 16 of Note 5 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 04/08
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 12:18 PM
Ruth: Your line is from Tennyson as well -- in fact it's the
line that immediately precedes the one quoted by Theresa.
"Come into the garden, Maud,
For the black bat night has flown,
Come into the garden, Maud,
I am here at the gate alone."
--"Maud", A. Tennyson (1835)
Dick in Alaska, where we must all pitch in on this poetry
thing since Jim Heath took French leave
=============== Reply 17 of Note 5 =================
To: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Date: 04/08
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 12:48 PM
Theresa gets the "black bat" credit, Dick. I said "sweet is
the night air" and it's not from that poem, which I have in
its entirety. I'm sure I didn't make that line up, but
where did it come from? My Bartlett's CD failed on it.
Haven't tried the book yet. I don't know if they have
exactly the same info in the book & CD.
Ruth, wondering how things get into her head sometimes
=============== Reply 18 of Note 5 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 04/08
From: UHUB31A D RANDALL Time: 2:25 PM
Oh Ruth -- Encouragement for me! I feel so out of my
league with the discussions here but if YOU have a sieve in
your head then there is hope for me yet!!! I HAVE to go
get this book! I looked at it Saturday evening when I
bought China Court but I didn't take it with me to the
register -- silly me! TTYL - Dottie
=============== Reply 19 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/09
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 7:11 PM
Ann,
Thanks for giving me the names of her other fiction. I
thought Hubbell was a bit off base there.
You know, I was somewhat sympathetic to Maude's plight
as a really pretty woman. I've never had that
problem myself, to say the least, but I've known women who
have. It's very tempting to take the easy way out. Good
looks can be such a short term ticket. And, people do act
very strange sometimes around a really beautiful person,
though I think women tend to be more discounted because of
it than men. Maude's headpieces were supposed to be some
sort of elaborate symbol of that, I suppose. Plus, I
thought it was interesting that she had shorn (word?) it
all off short and then got swayed by Fergus' view that this
was a cop-out. I kept wondering when she was going to
choose what felt best to her and just go with it. Maybe
that was the point...that she was so isolated from her real
thoughts and feelings that she didn't know what felt
best to her.
I noted one point when Roland was sort of reveling in the
bathroom at Sir George's. It said that, "He was rather
sorry for Maude. He had quite decided that she wouldn't
have been able to see the romance of the bathroom as he
could."
Also, I wondered if Val was really so bad. She seemed to
be reacting to what Roland was doing to himself in that
frigid academic world. Once she got involved with the
other man, she certainly seemed like a different person.
Do you think that Byatt was using her to reflect what the
academic world was doing to them all? I did want to shake
her a number of times before she moved out of the apartment
though. And, the repeated image of all that cat urine
soaking through the ceiling...it certainly had the affect
of letting you know how awful their life was!
BTW, did anyone understand what was going on with all
those cats that had been the old lady's lurking around on
the apartment doorstep...and Roland deciding to try and
take care of them? I couldn't understand why she would
include it if it didn't have some meaning. Barb
=============== Reply 20 of Note 5 =================
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 04/10
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 1:04 AM
Ruth: Sorry about the quotation mix-up. I didn't backdate
enough to pick up the earlier part of the discussion. How
about this:
"A rosebud set with little willful thorns,
and sweet as English air could make
her, she."
--"The Princess", A.Tennyson (1847)
Or, if you don't like that near-miss, how about:
"With thee conversing I forget all time,
"All seasons, and their change; all please
alike.
Sweet is the breath of morn, her rising
sweet,
With charm of earliest birds."
--Paradise Lost, Book IV, Milton (1667)
They're not your quote, but they're close!
Dick in Alaska who loves sifting those reference books
=============== Reply 21 of Note 5 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/10
From: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Time: 8:54 AM
POSSESSION: Regarding cats, Barbara, I thought it was
another indication of the sudden thawing of Roland's
indecisive, depressive personality, following the receipt
of three job offers. He had felt excluded from the latest
developments in the Randolph and Christabel mystery, and
wondered what was to become of him. He had always felt
oppressed by the cats, what with the dripping and all, so
his being able to look at them with kindness is another
sign of leaving his many years' funk behind.
Winding down my vacation on the mountain,
Felix Miller
=============== Reply 22 of Note 5 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/10
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 10:38 AM
Barb,
No, I didn't think Val was that bad either. Her own academic
work was never taken seriously, although she had some
talent, and then she was stuck supporting a failed
academic-- not a recipe for happiness. I thought it was
interesting that Byatt described both her and Blanche as
"superfluous" people, thus drawing attention to the fact
that they were both the odd-woman out in their respective
love triangles.
Felix covered the cat angle well. The only thing I have to
add is that it seemed so terribly ironic that those cats,
with their run of the garden and absolute freedom to relieve
themselves wherever they wanted, seemed to be enjoying
themselves far more than Val and Roland.
Ann
=============== Reply 23 of Note 5 =================
To: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Date: 04/12
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:42 PM
Felix,
I think you're right about the cats. But, your note is
tantalizing. What did you think about the rest of
POSSESSION? We need a male's opinion in this thread. Barb
=============== Reply 24 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/12
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:42 PM
You know, Ann, I liked Blanche too. I also thought that
Byatt painted her in a nicely sympathetic light when she
could have blasted her. Barb
=============== Reply 25 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/12
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:52 PM
One excerpt from POSSESSION that struck me was in an early
letter to Christabel from Randolph regarding the difference
between novels and poetry. It seemed to draw very bright
lines between them. I don't conclude that Byatt
necessarily has this opinion, only that it was appropriate
for the character, Randolph, to have it. However, I
wondered what you all thought about it:
"What makes me a Poet and not a novelist--is to do with
the singing of the Language itself. For the difference
between poets and novelists is this--that the former write
for the life of the language--and the latter write for the
betterment of the world."
I don't think he's talking just about the "agendists"
that we've discussed on other threads and on CC, but is he
completely off base? Barb
=============== Reply 26 of Note 5 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/12
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 8:24 PM
Barbara: Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think
Randolph's full of sh**.
Seems to me that for every example of a poet whose main
concern is beauty of the language and a novelist who's out
to change the world, you could find an example of exactly
the opposite.
One thing that's turned me off to a lot of poetry over the
years is some poets' presumption that their form is somehow
more pure, less tainted by mortal concerns than writers who
are slogging away in the vineyards of narrative.
But maybe I'm touchy..
Dale
=============== Reply 27 of Note 5 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/12
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 8:55 PM
Dale, I agree with you. Prose is not necessarily prosaic.
Poetry can be. Both can soar. They're just different,
but sometimes not as different as people think.
Ruth, glad to see a couple of penny's worth from Dale
=============== Reply 28 of Note 5 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/12
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:19 PM
So, Dale, I take it that you are saying Randolph *is*
completely off base? I think so too and am guessing
that Byatt had him saying that to illustrate the rather
stuffy, judgemental side of his nature. Is this a common
perception among poets? And, what about Byatt who seems to
aspire to both poetry and novel writing?
BTW, have you read POSSESSION, Dale? If so, what did you
think of it? God, it's good to have you back. Barb
=============== Reply 29 of Note 5 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/13
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 0:17 AM
Barb,
I think the idea of writing for the betterment of the world
is a Victorian idea. Makes me think of our friend George
Eliot.
Ann
=============== Reply 30 of Note 5 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/13
From: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Time: 12:12 PM
And how about Shelley on this subject: "Poets are the
unacknowleged legislators of the world." Not much distance
in time between Shelley and Ash, so the character is
speaking from his personal bias, I think. The purposes of
any art, or of any communication, may be to excite
either the esthetic or the political feelings of its
audience. Just a matter of which side of the street the
artist is working.(Or he/she may be working both sides of
the street, of course. Should be, if the work is worth
reading)
Regards from the mountain, Felix Miller
=============== Reply 31 of Note 5 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/13
From: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Time: 12:12 PM
Barbara,
You asked for it, so I will put in my abbreviated digest of
reactions to POSSESSION. But first, I must drag out my
battered, bullet-and-metaphor-riddled soapbox a moment. You
mention needing a "male's opinion" for this thread. Could
you define your terms? All books, I hope, were meant to be
read by people in general, and to this end have to be
grounded in human nature and its universal elements. Of
course, men and women are different (I have noticed this
with both satisfaction and dismay on many occasions),
so how the truths of existence are presented and appreciated
depend to some degree on the sex of the writer/reader. But
if there are some things in any book inaccessible to either
sex, I would say that such things could not be what is
really important about the book. Okay, I'm kicking the
soapbox back under the house with the rusting tricycles and
broken lawn furniture.
Now, I like POSSESSION a great deal. I read it first a few
years ago, and just finished re-reading it last week. I
delayed saying anything about it before finishing and
digesting the book. (burp). Like most of you, I just
dipped into the poetry and stories, mostly to get a flavor
of what Byatt was doing to establish her characters'
styles. I was really interested to see in the fairy story
of THE GLASS COFFIN a resemblance to Coleridge's
unfinished poem CHRISTABEL. I don't remember whether
Christabel had referred to her childhood encounter with
Coleridge by the time this tale appeared in the book, but
it interested me. The element of the spell which prevents
the woman from telling her brother what is happening seems
very important in both the tale and the poem. Important
also in POSSESSION, where silences abound.
Christabel's silence about Maia, and Ellen's silence about
Christabel's letter. These are more than plot devices, I
think. They have to do with the difficulties of
communication in literature and in Victorian society.
Women in that time had no voice outside of the home, unless
they were extraordinary artists in words, like George Eliot
or Christina Rossetti (I believe Rossetti is thought to be
a likely model for Christabel). But, like the spellbound
woman in the fairy story, they cannot tell all they know.
As far as men and women and their relationships are
concerned, there are few examples here of great
communication, do you think? For the duration of their
brief epistolary and briefer physical affair, Randolph and
Christabel achieve the most open dialogue. Followed,
however, by such complete silence. Merlin was enchanted by
Vivien, and put under glass forever, like the enchanted
princess in the fairy tale. As far as communication with
Christabel is concerned, Ash is as completely mute
following their idyll in Yorkshire. Christabel has
reversed the Merlin story, and encased herself in
glass-like silence in Seal Court.
Several have remarked on the ending, which has been
criticised. I like the ending of the story proper fine.
Byatt should have resisted putting the epilogue in, I
think. Probably she would be chagrined by my opinon.
I liked the parallel stories, the unfolding of the mystery
of Ash and Chistabel (I am a great fan of mystery novels),
and I laughed a lot at the skewering of academics Byatt
does throughout the book. When agenda dominates art, the
tail wags the dog. A very good book I did not mind reading
twice. May read again in a few years.
Regards from the mountain, Felix Miller
=============== Reply 32 of Note 5 =================
To: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Date: 04/13
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:01 PM
Ah, Felix, how ironic...your soapbox is much the same as
mine, but I sort of contradicted my own beliefs when I
asked for a male view. Actually, people have made slight
in-roads on making me question my former beliefs about
gender differences recently. I find myself doing casual
research again. And, also, I've been somewhat surprised at
the low number of participants in the POSSESSION
discussion...wanted to add to the group.
And, you've given me lots to think about...the silences
are definitely everywhere. Is this a function of British
stoicism as well? It certainly wasn't limited to the
part of the story set in the Victorian era. If anything,
there was even less communication between Roland, Val,
Maude, Blanche and Blackadder. But, I thought that had to
do with the emotional chains of academia, probably both.
I take it that you *didn't* think that agenda dominated
art in this one? Barb
=============== Reply 33 of Note 5 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/13
From: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Time: 9:15 PM
Barbara,
Contradicting one's own views is the sign of a mature mind,
I think. Anybody who is without contradictions is to be
viewed with suspicion. I seek out books by women writers to
find out more about how the other half (or more, according
to most census data) see life. So I recognize that there
is a difference.
As far as silences, British and otherwise, this seems to be
a central problem of human interaction. We are all locked
into our own little prisons, spending a lifetime trying to
link up with at least a few other people, and literature
provides a way to map the escape route.
It is ironic, as some others in this thread have noted,
that the relationship of Ash and Christabel is so much more
passionate than that of Roland and Maud. Such a
contradiction, the Victorians more passionate than the 90's
generation.
On the night before my vacation ends, on the mountain,
Felix Miller
=============== Reply 34 of Note 5 =================
To: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Date: 04/13
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 11:13 PM
You know, Felix, sometimes I think the Victorians wrote a
good passion, rather than living it.
Ruth, recalling that most of the evidence of the
Ash/Christabel passion takes the form of letters
|
A.S. Byatt
I thought the title of the book was a stroke of genius.
It had so many meanings: The possession of the letters. The
complete possession of a loved one. And the most
overpowering meaning, the state of possession as Ash
explained it to Ellen on p.492: "...I have been in love
with another woman. I could say it was a sort of madness. A
possession, as by daemons. A kind of blinding."
Joy Huott
I was really interested to see in the fairy story
of THE GLASS COFFIN a resemblance to Coleridge's
unfinished poem CHRISTABEL. I don't remember whether
Christabel had referred to her childhood encounter with
Coleridge by the time this tale appeared in the book, but
it interested me.
Felix Miller
|
