Synopsis:
Milton tells the story of Man's creation, fall and redemption--to "justify the ways of God to men."
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (1 of 83), Read
84 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Friday, June 23, 2000 08:04 AM
For a great internet guide to Milton try:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/research/milton/reading_room/contents/index.html
This is the Milton Reading Room,and has footnotes keyed to the
text of all of his work. It also links to related sites tracking down
the classical precedents for his forms.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (2 of 83), Read
85 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, June 23, 2000 08:25 AM
Thank you. It's added to my bookmarks, Jim. After some confusion
with the bookstore, I finally picked up my copy of the Norton
Critical Edition of Paradise Lost yesterday. 75 more pages to go in
The Name of the Rose and then I'll be starting on it.
Barb
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (3 of 83), Read
88 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, June 23, 2000 09:24 AM
Thanks, Jim. I'm bookmarking this one as well.
I'm still trying to catch up on my rest after returning from vacation
(I suspect something's wrong with the way we do vacations). I'm
plan to start Paradise Lost this weekend.
Ann
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (4 of 83), Read
73 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Sunday, June 25, 2000 01:03 AM
Finding the right edition is not easy. I do have The Norton
Anthology of English Literature revised 62. My wife Pat used it in
one of her English lit classes. Paradise Lost is in there. The problem
for me is the small print. Our local library does not have Milton but
I could order it from affiliated libraries which takes time. So I
walked into the book store around the corner and they The
Complete Poems of John Milton and yes the print is all right for my
ancient eyes, but it is not annotated but each chapter contains a
short summary.
I wonder if you people had the same experience I had reading the
first two chapters. My reading speed went down by 50% and there
were some mythological names and events that I could barely
remember.
Pat has taken a good deal of work in English literature and loves it.
So we ended up with her reading out loud while I was reading the
same stuff in my book. Then she went and offered annotations.
Great system! I started to understand and enjoy the poetry.
Just like Ann, I am intimidated by this kind of poetry and looking at
the number of pages my intimidation increased by leaps and
bounds. Well, I shall go on and try it just as I have tried other
challenging things in my lifetime and eventually benefit ted from
them.
I looked at the internet sources Tonya and other mentioned and
they will be most helpful.
Ernie
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (5 of 83), Read
77 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Monday, June 26, 2000 12:31 AM
My advice is to take it slow. PL is not that demanding once you
sort out the sentences, and the mythological references aren't all
that important. In fact, once you get used to the style of the
sentences, the book is kind of fanciful and wonderful.
My favorite spots so far are the building of Pandemonium starting
at line 678 in Book I and Satan's entry into Eden in Book IV where
he discovers this scene with Adam and Eve:
. . . About them frisking played
All beasts of th' earth, since wild, and of all chase
In wood or wilderness, forest or den;
Sporting the lion ramped, and in his paw
Dandled the kid; bears, tigers, ounces, pards
Gambolled before them, th' unwieldy elephant
To make them mirth used all his might, and wreathed
His lithe proboscis . . .
******
I have often wanted to wreathe my lithe proboscis.
The worst spot is the beginning of book III where God explains the
doctrines of predestination and free will. This is deadly, unless you
have a keen interest in 17th century theology, and the discourse
can be easily ignored as long as you're not too concerned about
the fate of your immortal soul.
If you are really having trouble with either the references or the
type size, go the the web site I cited earlier. It has a complete
text of PL with footnotes.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (6 of 83), Read
78 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, June 26, 2000 01:01 PM
Jim & All: I came across this capsule observation of the book, and
wanted to pass it along:
In scope, John Milton's monumental poem about the Fall of Man is
reminiscent of Michelangelo's painting on the walls and ceiling of
the Sistine Chapel. Paradise Lost (1667) tells of Satan's fall from
Heaven for the sin of pride, and his temptation of Adam and Eve
as revenge against God.
The work springs from deep religious faith, but its powerful
characterization of Satan as the supreme individualist hints at the
winds of intellectual ferment that were beginning to blow in
Milton's time.
Hmmmm.
By the way, a line from Book I is the source for the title of William
Styron's memoir about his experience with clinical depression,
Darkness Visible:
"..yet from these flames no light,
but rather darkness visible."
Quite an image, huh?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (7 of 83), Read
81 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, June 26, 2000 01:12 PM
PS: Here's a site that looks very promising. It has audio
commentary, articles, bios, and illustrations, such as the one
below, by Gustav Dore.
http://www.richmond.edu/~creamer/milton/index.html
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (8 of 83), Read
80 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, June 26, 2000 03:24 PM
I've just finished Book I. I've been reading it a few pages at a
time, reading some of the notations, but not worrying much about
the references unless they are absolutely integral to the story. So
far, I'm finding that Jim is absolutely right. Once I became
accustomed to the rhythm and style, it began to flow. Often it
helps to read a section, then read a few of the references, than
back to reread it.
This is all very surprising to me. I feel much like I felt after realizing
last year that Ulysses was actually a very good action story. Of
course, I still have to get through the beginning of Book III.
And, do I understand correctly that Milton created the word
Pandemonium? I think I would read the classics just for these little
nuggets alone.
Barb
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (9 of 83), Read
84 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Monday, June 26, 2000 07:30 PM
I was going to skip over this discussion. I attempted this book
years ago and had one heck of a time with it. But after reading
Daniel's suggestion to read it aloud, I decided to give it a try and
was very pleased to discover this actually works for me! I got a
late start, but hope to be finished by the 1st. Thanks Daniel!!
Beej
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (10 of 83), Read
82 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, June 26, 2000 08:21 PM
Dale,
How very interesting that "Darkness Visible" is from Paradise Lost.
It's a perfect title for Styron's book, don't you think?
Jim, I was hoping you'd come along to spearhead this discussion.
Beej, half the books I read here I'd never get through without the
impetus of a group discussion. So far, I haven't regretted reading
any of them, (with the possible exception of Dickens' Bleak
House{G})
Ann
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (11 of 83), Read
83 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 26, 2000 09:11 PM
Beej: You're welcome. Reading this work aloud has been the only
way I've managed to get through it--what? Four times? Five?
Gosh, I can't remember anymore.
Dale: I've always loved the oxymoron "darkness visible" as well, but
I didn't know someone had already used it for a title.
I'll have to stick with my second choice, "Gamboling with a lithe
proboscis"
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (12 of 83), Read
88 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 27, 2000 04:28 AM
I see PL as very demanding, but I consider that a virtue, not a
crime. Why shouldn't a reader expend some effort on Milton? He
expended nothing BUT effort on us. Milton persisted writing in the
face of horrific obstacles: the wrack and ruin of 3 marriages,
charges of heresy, oncoming blindness, public outrage, etc., He
also crafted the work over some 30-odd years and put in a lifetime
of brilliant and unsettling thought.
Most astonishing, though, is the simple fact that he overcame his
formidable SELF to create PL. Milton obviously is not a satanist.
But the best of PL is Satanic (in the sense of the character).
Imagine Al Gore writing the Great American Novel with Bush Jr as
the enemy... but an enemy written with such sympathy and insight
and intellectual honesty that nearly everyone who reads the book
ends up voting for Bush in the election. The only way that could
happen is if: a. Gore could actually write b. if while he was writing
he cared more about the CRAFT of it than about the end result.
A rare and wonderful thing.
Which leads to that famous comment on PL:
"Note. The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of
Angels & God, and at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he
was a true Poet and of the Devils party without knowing it" --
Blake
I find it very interesting that a huge number of angels revolt
against God... but nobody in the poem EVER revolts against Satan,
not even when they are roasting in lakes of fire, or transformed
into snakes...
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (13 of 83), Read
82 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 27, 2000 09:30 AM
I love that Gore/Bush analogy, George, brings the point home
perfectly.
Barb
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (14 of 83), Read
80 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 27, 2000 08:58 PM
Years ago, I taught an EXCERPT from PL as one aspect of a
chronological survey of Brit Lit to advanced 11th graders. I'm not
proud of the excerpt aspect of it--any "quick glossing over"
betrays my overall philosophy of teaching: "Teach Less Better."
BUT--one thing that is, I think, fascinating, is the premise that
Milton's Satan is a sort of "Tragic Hero" throughout the work:
romanticized, rebellious, and downright sexy, almost!--in a
bad-boy kinda way. (No, actually, the last observation is mine and
mine alone {VBG}.)
ANYWAY--looking forward to this one. I sure have some reviewing
to do.
Janet, gleefully anticipating, and as always, in awe of George and
his creativity in lit. analysis.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (15 of 83), Read
85 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 27, 2000 09:03 PM
Tonight I was reading PL aloud, as Daniel suggested, and my 10
year old son sat listening..He said "Mom, that's a nice story". This
sort of puzzled me, and I asked him if he understood it. And he
said "No, but it sounds really ,really pretty." He and I snuggled on
the sofa and he listened to me read for almost an hour, and never
took his eyes off me. For some reason, the beauty of these words
spoken, seemed to mesmerize this child.
Beej
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (16 of 83), Read
89 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 27, 2000 09:09 PM
gee,Janet..your post almost makes me picture Satan in a muscle
tee shirt, screaming "STELLA! STELLA!"
Beej
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (17 of 83), Read
94 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 27, 2000 09:17 PM
Beej,
. . . Or maybe "God! GOD!!!" I think I can relate. . .
Fascinating response from your son. Has he shown an interest in
poetry before this?
Janet
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (18 of 83), Read
93 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 27, 2000 09:35 PM
Janet, I've read a few poems to him before, and he's always
listened, said "nice,mom.." and galloped away . This is the first
time poetry has taken hold of him. I will be reading more to him,
needless to say.
As far as those bad boys in their muscle
shirts.....hmmmmmmmm.... :-)
Beej
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (19 of 83), Read
80 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 28, 2000 08:31 AM
Beej & Janet: This book's appeal to a youngster reminds me of a
story Ray Bradbury tells. One night he was listening to an LP of
Dylan Thomas reading his poetry, when his 5-year-old daughter
wandered into the room and stood transfixed.
Bradbury was thinking about how much the strong accent and the
sometimes arcane words must be limiting her understanding of
what Thomas was saying. But she listened through the whole
record, and before leaving the room commented, "That guy knows
what he's doing."
Hence my theory, which I've touted here to some folks' boredom,
I'm sure, that there's a quality of writing that amounts to
"authority of voice," and it works on us at levels way deeper than
the literal and the logical. And the iambic pentameter sure can't
hurt, either. I don't believe it's the meter of so much great poetry
by accident.
And those who lie abed in England tonight
Shall wish the morrow they had been with us!
Lines like that can make even a good pacifist want to go kick some
butt.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (20 of 83), Read
92 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 28, 2000 11:56 AM
Just a (to me) interesting sidenote:
Marlowe plays a neat trick in his Faustus... his devil
(Mephistopheles) is the only real humanist in the play. By which I
mean, the only speeches in the play that describe humanity in
terms at all good or pride-inducing are spoken by the devil.
The same is not completely true of PL, but, Satan's speech in Book
9 (lines 99-124) seems to me the best that can be said in PL for
our good ol' Earth. A little later, beginning at line 424, Satan is
struck momentarily powerless by the sight of Eve, and I'll be
damned if these lines don't seem to me literature's greatest-ever
description of love at first sight.
I don't have the slightest idea what conclusion to draw from this...
I barely understand what Milton could be up to in these lines. I
know that in terms of literary legacy, Milton's Satan has been
infinitely more influential and beloved than Milton's God... and
weirdly, Satan seems to be returning the favor in advance by
loving us better than anyone else in PL, even as he sets about
destroying us.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (21 of 83), Read
90 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 28, 2000 03:34 PM
when any mortal (even the most odd)
can justify the ways of man to God
i'll think it strange that normal mortals can
not justify the ways of God to man
e.e. cummings
Beej: Glad to hear read aloud is helping you cope. I can read PL
aloud for hours on end. I think Dale is on to something about the
"authority of the voice" transcending and reaching us in a place
where many of us thought we cannot be reached.
Alright George--enough on this Satanic hero business. I'm more
interested in Curious Adam chatting with Raphael and asking how
Celestial Beings do the nasty. Any poet--even Milton--who even
comes up with this stuff is, by default, in sympathy with the devil.
To paraphrase T.S. Eliot: I love Milton the author and loathe Milton
the man.
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (22 of 83), Read
91 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 28, 2000 04:59 PM
Dan--
I usually bring up stuff I'm not sure of to see if anyone will help me
think it through. Satan is NOT the hero of PL... I never said he
was. I said he was PL's greatest aesthetic achievement. As such,
he is also its most enigmatic figure, so I'd like to figure out some of
what he represents and why. Someone like yourself, who has
mentioned repeatedly that you've read PL repeatedly, could be an
enormous help with that. If your interest is Miltonic erotica, then
maybe I can return the favor and explain to you why Milton really
went blind, the etymology of 'proboscis', and why Lycidas spent so
much time with sheep.
Hopefully this discussion can accomodate both our interests...
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (23 of 83), Read
91 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 28, 2000 07:44 PM
Actually, Dan, I mentioned Satan as a Tragic hero, a concept that
has only minor overlap with our contemporary concept of the
generic hero. The ancient Greeks followed Aristotle's definition: a
personage noble in birth and actions, one who falls from grace due
to his own Tragic Flaw but also to Circumstances Beyond his
Control, one who has an overdose of Hubris or pride within his
nature, one who learns from his experiences. Shakespeare followed
this model to a large degree, the Romantics of the 19th century
revived it with variations, and Milton is lauded by some critics for
anticipating the latter in the character of Satan. It's been a long
time since I've done my cursory once-over teaching unit on the
afore-mentioned excerpt, but I think I'm remembering these points
with some degree of accuracy. Satan does, at any rate, become a
finely-drawn characterization rather than a stereotype in PL, a
facet of the work that has always fascinated me.
Janet
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (24 of 83), Read
69 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 29, 2000 07:44 AM
To me Satan is tragic because he simply can't accept the will of
God. He doesn't actually object to anything God does, he just
wants to be independent. Better to rule in Hell than serve in
Heaven. The net result is that Satan is miserable all the time. Thus
he looks on the delights of Eden undelighted.
What makes Satan such an attractive figure is that most of us
share Satan's predicament. Satan's fall from grace isn't much
different from Adam's except he has no one to blame but himself.
On the question of new words by Milton, the edition that I am
reading -- Penguin edited by John Leonard -- is quite helpful.
Pandaemonium is indeed a new creation as well as numerous other
words that are highlighted in the notes.
Mr. Leonard says that he did a computerized search on his OED on
CD looking for attributions to Milton, and then did a countersearch
looking for suspicious words and phrases attributed to others than
might actually belong to Milton. It's wonderful to see how a great
work of poetry can be turned into something even more wonderful:
an accounting exercise.
It works for baseball. Why not poetry?
BTW, as I drove to work yesterday morning I saw an elephant
wreathing his lithe proboscis from a billboard by the freeway
advertising the Portland Zoo. The next billboard was for Bud Light.
We do live in another Eden after all.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (25 of 83), Read
65 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 29, 2000 07:53 AM
George, do you have Harold Bloom's book on reading, the latest
one? I was spending some time at the book store yesterday while I
waited to go the dentist and read part of his section on Paradise
Lost. He has some fairly interesting comments on Milton's Satan in
contrast with his God. If you have the book, can you quote a bit
of it here?
We're buying the book soon because my oldest son wants it for his
birthday. The $25 price stopped me in my tracks a bit though. I'm
currently hunting for a discounted copy.
I'm now reading Book III in PL but have still not recovered from the
images of Sin and Death guarding the gates of Hell and how they
were created. What a phantasm! And, reading out loud (when I
can) is working very well for me too.
Barb
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (26 of 83), Read
68 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 29, 2000 08:17 AM
George: Now we're discussing the loss of paradise. Now I know
why the angel looks homeward and not towards the pasture.
Janet and everyone else: The obsession many (including William
Blake) place on Milton's characterization of Satan, to me at least,
always smacks of "let's show that the goody-two shoes religious
boy really leans towards Satan when the work is done, let's prove
that even for Mr. Holier-Than-Thou Satan is more fascinating than
Christ."
I've read a lot of Milton in my time and he was a very open-minded
man (just see his treatise on divorce or on free-speech and
compare its message to the tenor of his era) and I don't believe
that by "concentrating on artistic relevance" he was forced to
acknowledge that Satan had a more mesmerizing quality. Milton
was too much the artist to let his work "get away from him."
I lean towards the theory that Milton was well-aware of the
attraction of Satan and that he carefully constructed a kind of
trap for the reader. Does the reader recognize false virtues when
he encounters them? Can the reader see the flaws in Satan's
character, in Satan's speeches? Can the reader see that the
Classical attributes of heroism are not enough to win a decisive
victory over God?
Take the passage someone mentioned earlier when Satan first
spies Eve in Eden: He is so enchanted he almost cancels his
insidious mission. Even Satan could recognize goodness when he
espied it--can the reader? It is, in the end, Satan's actions and
not his character that should prove to the discerning reader that
he is not real "hero."
For the romantic poets and pretty much us, we tend to idolize the
bad-boy image, the character giving the proverbial forked-finger to
the man. For Milton, he was illustrating that even Satan--a hero
with some of the most classical attributes of heroism--cannot win
against God. When Satan's day is over, his triumphant speech of
victory is cut-short when he and his minions become serpents. I
ask you: If Jason returned from his quest and caused the entire
village to turn into horrid beasts in a pit of fire and brimstone,
would you consider him "heroic?"
"Oh, thanks a lot Satan. You've really returned from your quest
with something for all of us to cherish."
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (27 of 83), Read
76 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 29, 2000 10:09 AM
Dan,
Your theories are interesting ones, especially the idea that Milton
lays subtle traps for his readers along the lines you mention. That
would be in keeping with his style.
However, again, I emphasize that one should not interpret the
word "hero" in the contemporary literal usage we tend to ascribe
it. By Aristotle's definition, Creon, a king in the play ANTIGONE,
could be considered a tragic hero, although he orders the death of
his own son's fiancee put to death simply for attempting to give
her brother a decent burial. Centuries later, Macbeth himself could
be considered a Tragic Hero, although he is a bloody and
despicable serial killer by today's standards. The fact remains that
he fits the above criteria. He has the potential for noble actions
and has demonstrated them in the past. He has a tragic flaw: his
ambition, or his tendency to be influenced to evil. He learns from
his mistakes. He is partially responsible for his actions, but fate
and circumstance help him toward his tragic end. However,
applying the word "heroic" to him out of context is a
misrepresentation of the term TRAGIC HERO.
I'm certainly not insisting that Satan is heroic, or even that he is
indeed a tragic hero. It is interesting, however, that he shares
some if not all of these criteria with other tragic heroes, and that
his actions seem to me to stem from a character that is uniquely
3-dimensional and, indeed, tragic in and of that concept itself, and
"heroic" as well, arguably, depending on earlier derivations of that
word (the Romantics)that have evolved from even more ancient,
yet highly-structured definitions (The Greeks). Even if Milton did
not consciously consider his key character a "Tragic Hero" as such,
it's fun (for me, anyway) to speculate that this idea emerges
through the character via Milton's subconscious awareness, or
even in the reader's own individual perception. (Hope I've clarified
fairly articulately. I'm still having to post and edit, post and edit.
We're locked into Compuserve for at least 2 more years. Until then,
I'm in constant competition with the system STILL throwing me off
in the middle of a long post. In other words, I also have to type
FAST, too, which allows for spontaneity, but alas, sometimes
begets a lack of clarity.)
Janet, enjoying this already!
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (28 of 83), Read
69 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 29, 2000 12:58 PM
I'm going to try keep up here despite a brutal work situation. I'm
also reading aloud, something I almost invariably do with works
written before 1750 or so.
This quote was particularly suited for oral transmission, I thought,
almost demanding that you lower your voice progressively as the
verse progresses, echoing the actual spiral of the fallen angels
downwards into hell:
Hurld headlong flaming from th'Ethereal Skie
With hideous ruine and combustion down
To bottomless perdition, there to dwell
In Adamantine Chains and penal Fire,
Who durst defie th'Omnipotent to Arms.
I've always loved Milton, even as a college student (and I hated
everything then, just on principle). You can pick up PL, open it at
random, begin reading, and the grandeur of it just rolls out.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (29 of 83), Read
71 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 29, 2000 04:46 PM
Janet--
Well (and quickly!) said.
Dan--
Alexander Pushkin, while in the course of writing his masterpiece
Eugene Onegin, wrote a letter to a friend that stated: 'you'll never
believe what Eugene did today... he tried to kill himself!'
Sometimes a character getting 'carried away' is not a lack of
artistry on the part of the author- sometimes its because that
character has come to a magical kind of life for its creator, fired
his/her imagination, transcended 'literature'. Satan is such a
character, in my reading of him. That doesn't mitigate Milton's
artistry at all, it proves it.
I don't have to 'nail' Milton with charges of secret satanism.... but
I do have to nail him for his artistically and morally inadequate God.
PL's God is boring, tyrannical, occasionally cruel (he seems to
prepare Hell in advance for the rebel angels, apparently to make
sure it's sufficiently hot in time- I guess even God preheats his
oven)- Milton's writing palpably loses poetic authority when he
writes for the Almighty. There aren't many Miltons in literary
history... the truly great writers are few and far between. I wish I
COULD say that Book 3 matches anything in Books 1-4,or 7-10,
but sadly that is not the case. Maybe it's sheer reader's greed,
and I wish Milton could have given us something to do with God
that rivalled, say, Wordsworth's 'Nature', or any other poetic
figuration of the divine that I draw hope from... but Milton's God is
a failure. Maybe God should've 'gotten away' from Milton a little bit
more...?
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (30 of 83), Read
62 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, June 30, 2000 07:00 AM
Barbara--
Quotes from Bloom? No problem.
"(Milton) was clearly a sect of one and a very heretical Protestant
indeed. He was a Mortalist, and believed that the soul and body
died together, and would be resurrected together... PL identifies
energy with spirit; Satan abounds in both... and so,
overwhelmingly, does Milton, though he takes care to make Satan
both his double and his parody. One could argue ironically against
churchwardenly critics that Satan is a more orthodox Christian
(however inverted) than Milton is."
"It is hard to find affection for Milton's Christ, seeing him mounted
on the flaming Chariot of Paternal Deity... unless one is very fond
of tank warfare."
"Why read so difficult and so erudite an epic poem? One could
make the merely historical plea; Milton is as much the central
Protestant poet as Dante is the central poet-prophet of
Catholicism. Our (America's) culture and sensibility are hardly to be
comprehended without some clear sense of the Protestant spirit.
That spirit achieved its apotheosis in PL, and an adventurous
reader would be well counseled to brave the difficulties."
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (31 of 83), Read
63 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, June 30, 2000 08:16 AM
George: Quaint--but that was not the point I was addressing. I
concur that Milton's "God" is one of the weakest character in this
epic. I was articulating what Janet re-articulated: that the
concept of "hero" needs to be changed when applied to Milton's
Satan. Furthermore, I do not believe that Milton allowed his
characters free reign--I can see that happening with some authors
(i.e. Pushkin), but not our buddy Milton. He was too meticulous
and this epic was too well-planned to allow him to "subconsciously"
sketch Satan favourably. As I said above--that's a notion the
Romantics love: The mere thought that even John Milton could not
repress himself.
Stanley Fish has always noted that God plays with loaded dice in
this epic--he does "pre-warm the oven" and knows well in advance
that Adam and Eve will be duped by Satan and that Christ will
have to be crucified in the flesh. Imagine the pain of having to
deal with a character who knows all (past, present, and future)
and cannot have one single flaw. Hell, that's not human--that's
divine to the religious, alien to the SF troop. Milton fails with God
precisely because it is an impossible task.
Great epics are generally written with the result of the action
already known. In The Aeneid, we are aware that Rome will be
founded and that Aeneas is going to be okay--but Aeneas isn't so
sure about that during the epic. In The Iliad, we the readers
should know the outcome of the Trojan war--but this does not
diminish the enjoyment I get reading of Achilles' grudge and his
vengeance for the death of Patrocles.
BUT, Milton decides to show the "Battle in Heaven" and have God
speak to his Son regarding events. This weakens the epic, for me,
considerably. I can enjoy Milton's verse during these sections,
amazed at how he borrows from Homer and Virgil and still enhances
the clash and clamor of a celestial battle--but he should have left
God's thoughts and intentions out of the epic completely. God
should not be forced to explain anything, account for anything.
In a way (and this is a fresh thought for me), Milton's greatest
mistake is allowing God to speak at all. All language has
ambiguities, weaknesses, cannot be totally clear. By having God
speak--and specifically argue his position--places God on the same
pedestal as humanity. He should not speak. He should have kept
silent. The moment God utters one syllable, he's one of us and he
can be taken down linguistically.
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (32 of 83), Read
63 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, June 30, 2000 09:23 AM
Are you arguing that God is unknowable and that humans should
not attempt to understand him or explain his actions?
I can relate to that position, but I don't think too many religious
people would go along with it. Or, more likely, are you arguing from
a purely artistic viewpoint? But then, leaving God such a blank
character would have been pretty frustrating for the reader too.
Ann, into Book II and finding Satan a pretty attractive guy so far.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (33 of 83), Read
58 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, June 30, 2000 02:45 PM
On 6/30/00 9:23:48 AM, Ann Davey wrote:
>Are you arguing that God is
>unknowable and that humans
>should not attempt to
>understand him or explain his
>actions?
>
>I can relate to that position,
>but I don't think too many
>religious people would go
>along with it.
Well -- then maybe they should go read the Bible, eh? Says just
that in those words in more than one place I do believe. Religious
people who truly think they can out think, out talk or know God --
well -- -- that's all I want to say on that.
>Or, more
>likely, are you arguing from a
>purely artistic viewpoint? But
>then, leaving God such a blank
>character would have been
>pretty frustrating for the
>reader too.
But then again, Dan, God did enough talking according to the Bible
-- why not let His words from that source serve in PL? Ann? Would
He have been a blank character then or would He have then
become frustrating because Milton was playing with the Bible or
would that have even entered into it at that time?
Oh --- I cannot wait to get at this but I have no time at the
moment -- however, I WILL be back and hope someone will still be
willing to respond when I get here!
Dottie -- who would remind Ann that Satan is usually a pretty
attractive guy -- he can be whatever he wishes -- he can be the
right thing to get the hook into whatever fish he's playing at the
moment -- isn't that the theory? How about The Screwtape
Letters?
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (34 of 83), Read
54 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 08:29 AM
Thinking of Milton as the prototypical Protestant might cast some
special light on the problem of Satan.
If you go back to Wycliffe and the beginnings of Protestantism in
England, you find that one of the big issues was whether anyone
outside the clergy should be allowed to read the Bible. The Church
in the 14th Century argued that allowing lay people to read the
Bible would encourage them to interpret the Bible themselves and
lead to heresy. Wycliffe argued Bible reading by the laity was a
good thing because each man and woman had a direct relationship
with God which wasn't dependent clerical intervention -- an
intervention, which in Wycliffe's time, was little better than an
excuse for extortion.
As the English Protestants triumphed in the centuries that
followed, they ran into exactly the problem that the Church
predicted. If everyone is considered equally authoritative about
the will of God, you've got a world full of heretics and no clear
answers. Not only were the Puritans fighting the Anglicans and the
Catholics in Milton's time, they ended up fighting each other.
Thus, Milton's dilemma. In principle he wants to be totally
orthodox. On the other hand, he feels a kinship to Satan because
he doesn't want anyone telling him what orthodoxy is.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (35 of 83), Read
56 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 08:43 AM
Thanks for another well-stated viewpoint, Jim. As I said -- I can't
wait to get to this -- soon, soon.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (36 of 83), Read
57 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 08:49 AM
Jim: The clergy were indeed resistant to letting us riffraff read the
scriptures firsthand.
The first person to translate the Bible into English, for
example--William Tyndale--was rewarded for his achievement by
being burned at the stake.
I find it ironic that one of today's largest religious publishers,
Tyndale House, is named in his honor. I wonder what percentage
of folks blithely reading their Tyndale Sunday School lessons know
about William or his fate.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (37 of 83), Read
63 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 09:32 AM
I have not finished reading this book yet, and my thoughts may
reflect this, but perhaps Milton intentionally down played the
beauty of God's words in order to have the reader center on God's
sense of justice. I think if Milton had made God's words too
flowery, the reader would have had a tendency to relate to Him on
human terms, and the omnipotence of this "all just" God would
have been sacrificed.
Beej
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (38 of 83), Read
64 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 09:39 AM
As far as the attractiveness of Satan, my mother used to tell me
"you have to be charming to be a good thief." Charm is far from
being equivalent to anything good. Actually , isn't it a
"manipulation tool"? Yes, Satan is charming, in a bad boy way, and
it serves his purpose well.
Beej
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (39 of 83), Read
61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 09:55 AM
Question: Does anybody here think Milton's Satan qualifies as a
sociopath?
Here's the official definition:
A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the
rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by
three (or more) of the following:
(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful
behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are
grounds for arrest.
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or
conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness, an indicated by repeated
physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to
sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or
rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
B. The individual is at least age 18 years.
C. There is evidence of Conduct Disorder with onset before age 15
years.
D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during
the course of Schizophrenia or a Manic Episode.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (40 of 83), Read
63 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 11:35 AM
Dale--
Satan indeed qualifies as sociopathic... by those criteria. But
sociopaths are notorious for being unaware of their own inner
workings, which is patently not Satan's case. Nobody (critics
included) explains Satan as well as Satan himself. I think the
diagnosis here needs to be a bit more complex, particularly
considering that God is equally qualified for the mantle of mental
illness if it's applied by strict definition.
Let's imagine the unimaginable for a moment: Satan wins and God
falls. Consider, simply from how PL presents them, how each might
act. Maybe I'm insane myself, but I imagine that Satan would
create no Hell, and after a period of vicious gloating, I'm sure
Satan would come to his truest self and reconcile with his victim.
Consider- Satan himself recognizes his debt to God, admires him at
times, and only really has a horror of being 'second-best'.
On the other hand, Milton's God- who acts with extreme, almost
military prejudice to rid Heaven of the rebels he KNEW in advance
would rebel, and torment them afterward... how would this God
act in impossible exile? Answer: he would be infinitely more
vengeful than Satan himself. I may now have gone totally off track
(or never been on it!)... but is it an invalid reading of their
characters?
Beej--
The moment of Satan's that I admire most (and least, alas) is the
moment of his self-speaking on Mount Niphates at the beginning of
Book 4. This is Satan at his most attractive... and he is alone.
Who is he trying to trick? The reader? Or, as Dan would have it,
are we being half-deceived by Milton himself? Or... is the scene
exactly as it is portrayed, a very intelligent, very torn, (and yes, a
very heroic) angel honestly speaking to himself and seeing no way
out?
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (41 of 83), Read
62 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 12:18 PM
I believe Lord Acton's statement goes:
"Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (42 of 83), Read
67 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 12:27 PM
One of the things we find so attractive about Satan is his
humanity, which is the very reason his character can be developed
by Milton, whereas God's cannot.
George touches on the problem in the previous post: God knew
that the rebels would rise, and that He would prevail and that they
would all be cast down. Under those circumstances, a human or a
Satan would have acted differently and in a comprehensible way.
But God -- well, God is just God, and you cannot go there with
reason or rationality or empathy or any other very useful human
faculty or device. Sometimes I think the entire Satanic rebellion
was in direct reaction to God's obtuseness.
The fundamental unknowability and inscrutability of a Supreme
Being who knows all, from the beginning to the end of time, and
controls all, from the beginning to the end of time, and sometimes
chooses to act and sometimes chooses not to act, all for reasons
that are utterly beyond what we can understand -- really, these
are not the characteristics from which high drama can be drawn.
All we can ever see of such a God are puzzling bits and pieces,
that lead us definitionally into error if we think too deeply on them.
We cannot see God; we can only see the outcomes of God's
works.
But Satan, now, is an entirely different matter. Near to God,
jealous of God, fearing God, resenting God, bitter, ambitious,
funny, a good dancer: now there's a dramatic character for a
writer work with.
In the end, Satan's problems are our problems, and that's a major
reason why we identify with him in this lovely work.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (43 of 83), Read
69 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 12:54 PM
Dick writes:
" . . . a Supreme Being who knows all, from the beginning to the
end of time, and controls all, from the beginning to the end of
time, and sometimes chooses to act and sometimes chooses not
to act, all for reasons that are utterly beyond what we can
understand . . ."
But isn't it presumptuous for a human to assume that an Almighty
God acts for reasons? Surely His Will is reason and when we imply
"reasons" we are (again) trying to define God ?
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (44 of 83), Read
65 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 02:06 PM
Yup, even trying to talk about how hopeless it is to talk about
God, you (I) fall into the trap of talking about God.
Stick with Satan. Him, we can deal with.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (45 of 83), Read
66 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 02:11 PM
Satan's attractiveness is , I believe, a coat of many colors he dons
only for purpose of malignity. Cite lines 634 to 639, where he is
trying to sway Arch-Angel Uriel to disclose man's "home"...
"But first he(Satan)casts to change his proper shape,
Which else might work him danger or delay:
And now a stripling Cherube he appears,
Not of the prime, yet such as in his face
Youth smiled Celestial, and to every Limb
Suitable grace diffus'd, so well he fiend;
Beej
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (46 of 83), Read
72 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 01, 2000 03:29 PM
Ann: My point is that God should be monolithic, inscrutable. Here,
in Milton, he explains, explains, and explains his "divine plans."
Why? And I disagree with Beej: God's "words" are no more nor less
flowery than any other character's words in the epic.
Granted, the Bible provides instances of God's "words" to Adam, to
Abraham, to Moses, ad infiniitum. The problem lies when one really
looks at them, as Jonathan Kirsch does in his bio Moses: A Life.
God moves from begging Moses to threatening Moses to
attempting to kill Moses (and Kirsch humorously notes the question
of a supreme deity "attempting" something as trivial as killing a
human being and failing), etc.
Jim's Cliff Notes on Protestants doesn't really explain things,
however. As Jim states, Milton wants to be orthodox but he has to
be orthodox in a rebellious fashion. I don't think so.
For me, Milton realized--as someone pointed out above--that
Satan had to be attractive, to be persuasive in order to be
credible when he causes the Fall of Man. That's all--of course he's
attractive and mesmerizing--he's the Prince of Darkness. He's not
going to look and act like a snake-in-the-grass until the God forces
him to. Satan is not escaping from Milton's pen, threatening to cut
loose and burn his way out of the epic.
Instead, Milton uses Books I and II to create a dynamic villian
which, as unbelievable it may seem, will both succeed and fail in
his quest. The real winner, again unbelievably, is God--that boring
guy.
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (47 of 83), Read
73 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 12:15 AM
Please forgive me for this, but let me quote the speech from Book
4 upon which my disagreement rests:
31 Then, much revolving, thus in sighs began.
32 "O thou, that, with surpassing glory crowned,
33 Lookest from thy sole dominion like the God
34 Of this new world; at whose sight all the stars
35 Hide their diminished heads; to thee I call,
36 But with no friendly voice, and add thy name,
37 Of Sun! to tell thee how I hate thy beams,
38 That bring to my remembrance from what state
39 I fell, how glorious once above thy sphere;
40 Till pride and worse ambition threw me down
41 Warring in Heaven against Heaven's matchless King:
42 Ah, wherefore! he deserved no such return
43 From me, whom he created what I was
44 In that bright eminence, and with his good
45 Upbraided none; nor was his service hard.
46 What could be less than to afford him praise,
47 The easiest recompence, and pay him thanks,
48 How due! yet all his good proved ill in me,
49 And wrought but malice; lifted up so high
50 I sdeined subjection, and thought one step higher
51 Would set me highest, and in a moment quit
52 The debt immense of endless gratitude,
53 So burdensome still paying, still to owe,
54 Forgetful what from him I still received,
55 And understood not that a grateful mind
56 By owing owes not, but still pays, at once
57 Indebted and discharged; what burden then
58 O, had his powerful destiny ordained
59 Me some inferiour Angel, I had stood
60 Then happy; no unbounded hope had raised
61 Ambition! Yet why not some other Power
62 As great might have aspired, and me, though mean,
63 Drawn to his part; but other Powers as great
64 Fell not, but stand unshaken, from within
65 Or from without, to all temptations armed.
66 Hadst thou the same free will and power to stand?
67 Thou hadst: whom hast thou then or what to accuse,
68 But Heaven's free love dealt equally to all?
69 Be then his love accursed, since love or hate,
70 To me alike, it deals eternal woe.
71 Nay, cursed be thou; since against his thy will
72 Chose freely what it now so justly rues.
73 Me miserable! which way shall I fly
74 Infinite wrath, and infinite despair?
75 Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell;
76 And, in the lowest deep, a lower deep
77 Still threatening to devour me opens wide,
78 To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heaven.
79 O, then, at last relent: Is there no place
80 Left for repentance, none for pardon left?
81 None left but by submission; and that word
82 Disdain forbids me, and my dread of shame
83 Among the Spirits beneath, whom I seduced
84 With other promises and other vaunts
85 Than to submit, boasting I could subdue
86 The Omnipotent. Ay me! they little know
87 How dearly I abide that boast so vain,
88 Under what torments inwardly I groan,
89 While they adore me on the throne of Hell.
90 With diadem and scepter high advanced,
91 The lower still I fall, only supreme
92 In misery: Such joy ambition finds.
93 But say I could repent, and could obtain,
94 By act of grace, my former state; how soon
95 Would highth recall high thoughts, how soon unsay
96 What feigned submission swore? Ease would recant
97 Vows made in pain, as violent and void.
98 For never can true reconcilement grow,
99 Where wounds of deadly hate have pierced so deep:
100 Which would but lead me to a worse relapse
101 And heavier fall: so should I purchase dear
102 Short intermission bought with double smart.
103 This knows my Punisher; therefore as far
104 From granting he, as I from begging, peace;
105 All hope excluded thus, behold, in stead
106 Mankind created, and for him this world.
107 So farewell, hope; and with hope farewell, fear;
108 Farewell, remorse! all good to me is lost;
109 Evil, be thou my good; by thee at least
110 Divided empire with Heaven's King I hold,
111 By thee, and more than half perhaps will reign;
112 As Man ere long, and this new world, shall know."
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (48 of 83), Read
80 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 12:55 AM
Now, I know no other way to characterize this speech than as
completely honest. Satan addresses his words to the sun, and I
find it hard to believe he's trying to deceive an inanimate ball of
flame... so I have to assume he at least thinks he means what he
says here.
With 'Evil be my Good', he consciously chooses to let go of the
unfallen Lucifer in himself and almost completely become the
smoothly corrupt deceiver he's been painted as. But what about
before? Even as he's embarking on his project to ruin Earth (the
project that supposedly will earn the rebel angels a more palatable
home and a certain measure of revenge), right before he
undertakes this plan that all the devils hope will improve their
situation... he says 'farewell hope.'
Why, at the true beginning of his campaign, does Satan lose all
hope? Because he knows that NOW, at this moment and with this
decision, he is truly fallen. A spirit as magnificent as Satan's
cannot really be considered fallen simply because he was shoved
from Heaven's ledge... God can make Satan fall physically, but only
the angel himself can improve or corrode his own mind, and his
self-corrosion really sets in here. He feels true remorse for his
actions and for being the type of creature God has made him, and
I ask: is it not apparent what gifts are being tossed aside here? Is
it not clear what a personality is being washed away? Where is
God's remorse for this waste? Are we not allowed to ask that
question simply because god is God?
Most importantly, are we supposed to discount this speech simply
because Satan is the devil? What a literary crime it would be to
find that Milton meant these hundred-or-so lines only as a hoax or
a mind-game for us to play with and then drop because no deep
truths lie within. To me that's akin to finding out that
Shakespeare's own great hero-villain Hamlet didn't actually mean
any of his own monologues, or being told that because Fortinbras
wins in the end that none of Hamlet's words mattered anyway.
Ah well, my nurse tells me it's time for my lithium so I have to go
now...
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (49 of 83), Read
60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 09:28 AM
George,
I love that section too, even got my husband to read it because I
couldn't get over how understandable it made Satan at that point.
I hadn't thought about the fact that he was fooling no one, no one
hears these words. I liked watching him going through the steps of
saying that others were equally guilty, that he's been singled out
(sounded like my adolescent sons). Then, he thinks about whether
he could recant, but thinks how he would disdain it, would be
ashamed in front of his followers after all of his claims and finally
knows that, even if he repented, he would just do worse at a
future time and receive an even greater punishment. How could
anyone help but relate to that voice?
Then, I remembered the description of the creation of Death and
Sin and backed up a bit on my buddy-buddy relationship with
Satan.
Barb
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (50 of 83), Read
61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 09:45 AM
Well, George, you have certainly given me lots to think about. It
sounds like you find Satan a better person than God. I am
speaking, of course, of these two strictly as Milton's literary
creations, not as religious realities. You wrote:
Let's imagine the unimaginable for a moment: Satan wins and God
falls. Consider, simply from how PL presents them, how each
might act. Maybe I'm insane myself, but I imagine that Satan
would create no Hell,and after a period of vicious gloating, I'm
sure Satan would come to his truest self and reconcile with his
victim. Consider- Satan himself recognizes his debt to God,
admires him at times, and only really has a horror of being
'second-best'.
I haven't got to God yet {G}, but I have to agree with you that
Satan seems to have great insight into his own motivation and the
consequences of his actions. In the section you most recently
quoted, he says that he could submit, but not really change.
Eventually, he would challenge God yet again, so what would be
the point of trying? Hell is preferable to the prospect of being
forgiven and spending the rest of eternity paying perpetual
adoration to his former enemy in heaven. (I have to admit that this
whole concept of spending an afterlife contemplating the glory of
God never sounded too attractive to me either, but the nuns
always assured me that it would be swell).
Satan hates being second best because he really feels he is
superior. It is difficult not to respond to him as a purely literary
character. There is something heroic about him.
Milton, presumably, believed in the literal existence of Satan and
his cohorts, which makes this complex, and sometimes
sympathetic, portrayal of the devil all the more interesting.
Ann
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (51 of 83), Read
61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 09:47 AM
Ah, Barb, I haven't got to the creation of death yet. That changes
everything.
Ann
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (52 of 83), Read
60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 10:26 AM
Milton uses that passage for another purpose as well, it seems to
me: to address what I've called in other contexts "The
Mephistophelian Paradox". By that I mean, the paradox created by
the fact that when Satan, the personification of evil, drops by to
buy your soul, he implicitly proves the existence and goodness of
God before your very eyes. This, in turn, raises the question: who
would be such a numbnuts to accept the offer, when confronted
with incontrovertible proof of God and eternal life (and damnation)?
Here, of course, Satan takes it one step further. He's both the
offeror and the offeree in this particular Mephistophelian bargain.
But the underlying logical flaw is the same, and Milton realizes he
has to address it. Who, in their right mind, would walk away from
Heaven?
Unless of course, Heaven is not all its cracked up to be. As J.M.
Barrie wrote, "Heaven for climate, Hell for company."
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (53 of 83), Read
59 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 10:44 AM
Dan, I am afraid that my garbled Cliff's notes on Protestantism
didn't hit the target they were aiming for.
My thought was that Protestantism is an inherently rebellious form
of religion. When you accept the concept of a priesthood of all
believers and allow each to determine orthodoxy in his own way,
you get a very chaotic situation in which every believer can be at
odds with every other believer. Thus, there are far more
Protestant sects than Catholic sects (and not nearly enough sects
education, but that's another story.)
Milton was devoted to God, but he couldn't agree with half the
Puritans in England, let alone the Anglicans or the Catholics.
This relates to the character of Satan only in the sense that
Milton could understand rebelliousness a little better than he could
understand obedience.
A small point, but I'm sticking to it.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (54 of 83), Read
62 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 10:57 AM
Jim: I'm beginning to see your point--I think. So Milton chooses to
place GOD in his epic and, by mere chance, GOD spouts off Milton's
sect of religion. So Milton really understands GOD and all that jazz.
The reader is thereby indoctrinated through Milton's art into
Milton's dogma.
It's an interesting process, isn't it? As if Leonardo da Vinci would
have tried subliminal imagery in his paintings to convince people to
be of the same political party as him.
Fascinating.
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (55 of 83), Read
65 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:03 AM
Ann & All: Speaking of the physical nature of heaven, there's a
priceless paragraph in Mark Twain's LETTERS FROM EARTH about
the practical incongruities of eternal worshipfulness...harps, wings,
robes, etc...but alas I can't lay hand on my copy of LETTERS right
now.
However, I did find these comments from Twain on his feelings
about God and religion:
I believe in God the Almighty.
I do not believe He has ever sent a message to man by anybody,
or delivered one to him by word of mouth, or made Himself visible
to mortal eyes at any time in any place.
I believe that the Old and New Testaments were imagined and
written by man, and that no line in them was authorized by God,
much less inspired by Him.
I think the goodness, the justice, and the mercy of God are
manifested in His works: I perceive that they are manifested
toward me in this life; the logical conclusion is that they will be
manifested toward me in the life to come, if there should be one.
I do not believe in special providences. I believe that the universe
is governed by strict and immutable laws. If one man's family is
swept away by a pestilence and another man's spared it is only
the law working: God is not interfering in that small matter, either
against the one man or in favor of the other.
I cannot see how eternal punishment hereafter could accomplish
any good end, therefore I am not able to believe in it. To chasten
a man in order to perfect him might be reasonable enough; to
annihilate him when he shall have proved himself incapable of
reaching perfection might be reasonable enough; but to roast him
forever for the mere satisfaction of seeing him roast would not be
reasonable -- even the atrocious God imagined by the Jews would
tire of the spectacle eventually.
There may be a hereafter and there may not be. I am wholly
indifferent about it. If I am appointed to live again I feel sure it
will be for some more sane and useful purpose than to flounder
about for ages in a lake of fire and brimstone for having violated a
confusion of ill-defined and contradictory rules said (but not
evidenced) to be of divine institution. If annihilation is to follow
death I shall not be aware of the annihilation, and therefore shall
not care a straw about it.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (56 of 83), Read
66 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:24 AM
Dale: I'm not home right now, but I recall the passage you allude
to in Twain's Letters From Earth. It's where Twain notes the
discomfort and ennui of standing in church singing and listening to
boring sermons and then quips: And who would want to endure
this for eternity? This is the prize?
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (57 of 83), Read
66 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 11:29 AM
Dan: YES! That's the one. Maybe somebody here can locate and
post it...
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (58 of 83), Read
66 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 01:17 PM
Speaking of the nature of God, here's a section of an interview
with writer Sam Keen by a journalist named Scott London that I
found intriguing...
KEEN: Aristotle said that philosophy begins in wonder. I believe it
also ends in wonder. The ultimate way in which we relate to the
world as something sacred is by renewing our sense of wonder.
That's why I'm so opposed to the kind of miracle-mongering we
find in both new-age religion and old-age religion. We're attracted
to pseudomiracles only because we've ceased to wonder at the
world, at how amazing it is.
LONDON: How do we recapture that sense of wonder?
KEEN: I try to steer away from high metaphysical beliefs because
I think we humans do best when we realize that we don't know all
that much. So much violence and hatred is caused by people
having to know the ways of God and then force them on their
neighbors. Wonder, to me, is that spiritual stance or disposition
which renders us humble in the face of things, and also thankful.
In my mind, to try to live that way is what it means to follow a
sacred path.
LONDON: The great Christian mystic Meister Eckhart observed
that "the idea of God can become the final obstacle to God."
KEEN: Yes, our ideas about God are always pathetically
inadequate. There is no way that the human imagination can
fathom the Ultimate.
I remember when I took LSD back in the sixties. One of the things
it made me realize was that even the psychedelic imagination
doesn't touch the edge of true reality; it's just a slightly different
form of the human imagination. So when we imagine God, what
are we imagining? The great mystics all recognized that you've
eventually got to throw all images away.
One passage I love in Thomas Aquinas is where he talks for some
thirteen pages or more about how you name God. At the end of
it, he quotes Dionysius the Areopagite: "But in the end we remain
joined Him as to one unknown."
How can we think about that which is ultimate and that which is
sacred in ways that don't hinder our being open to that reality? I
think we constantly have to erase the images we have. Thinking
about the sacred is a process that has to be poetic rather than
dogmatic. The great mistake of dogmatism is that it latches on to
an idea of God and says, "That's it!" Now, if you believe in that
idea, you have to conform to it, no matter what else you might
learn or experience.
The spiritual mind is always metaphorical. Spiritual thinking is
poetic thinking. It's always trying to put a very diaphanous
experience into words, realizing all the while that words are
inadequate. So if you have an idea of God you think is adequate,
it's not. I think we have to trust ourselves in the darkness of not
knowing. The God out of which we came and into which we go is
an unknown God. It's the luminosity of that darkness and that
unknowing that is, I think, the most human -- and the most
sacred -- place of all.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (59 of 83), Read
71 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 01:37 PM
From the above:
"Wonder, to me, is that spiritual stance or disposition which
renders us humble in the face of things, and also thankful."
Look to G. K. Chesterton for the sense of the miraculousness in
simple things, the budding of a flower, and so forth.
Or so I recall.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (60 of 83), Read
72 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 02:09 PM
Pres: I know nothing about Chesterton except the name, but at
your suggestion have unearthed a wealth of wonderful quotes by
him at various Web sites.
This one's apropos for the current thread, I think:
"The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of
man." --Introduction to the Book of Job, 1907
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (61 of 83), Read
69 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 02, 2000 10:03 PM
Dale,
You have reminded me just how good Mark Twain is.
The Keen/London interview made a lot of sense to me as well.
Ann
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (62 of 83), Read
86 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, July 03, 2000 01:53 AM
Ann--
Very true... in PL I do find Satan a better figure than God, both
artistically and intellectually. 2 caveats though: I don't believe we
ever really see Milton's 'God' in PL. Just like an over-ardent speech
by a young and passionate lover that doesn't really convey their
true feelings, I think the aesthetic strain Milton felt while
portraying God obscures from us the actual God he carried in his
head. And I bear in mind Dick's wonderful point that what draws us
to Satan is his 'humanity' in comparison to God... though I disagree
that God cannot be depicted humanely but must remain remote
and unknowable. The Yahweh of Genesis and Exodus, the Christ of
the Gospel of Mark, the Allah of the Koran, even Shakespeare's
amazing riff on Jehovah embodied in King Lear all seem to me to
prove that God can be 'done' artistically. Just not in PL.
And I might as well put all my cards on the table: I find PL's Eve
vastly superior to Adam. Adam warns her not to stray from his
company from fear of the Tempter they've been warned about.
Eve, I think logically, considers Eden a curious paradise if they
have to be on a permanent red alert status. What kind of paradise
can you not explore because ultimate destruction lurks behind
every tree (and hangs on one of them)?
She's obviously impatient with Adam's mincing cautiousness, and
for all her flaws of reasoning and susceptibility to flattery her point
remains: if they have to live in constant fear, then paradise is not
paradise at all... just as Satan feels that, given the inner torments
he suffered there, Heaven was not Heaven for him.
P.S.-- Dick, I love the 'Mephistophelean Paradox'... why does
anyone take such a fore-doomed step? And why did Ishmael board
the Pequod? In imaginative terms though, what a loss for us if
they didn't...
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (63 of 83), Read
85 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 04, 2000 06:48 AM
Dale: Excellent quote.
I think we have to trust ourselves in the darkness of not knowing.
The God out of which we came and into which we go is an
unknown God. It's the luminosity of that darkness and that
unknowing that is, I think, the most human -- and the most
sacred -- place of all.
That's exactly my point--Milton attempts to make God "knowable,"
to remove the aura of mystery which should surround a deity. I
disagree with George: I think Milton may have even thought he
was a good enough author to actually believe in his heart he could
articulate the Word of the Lord in his poetry. It's too bad that it
was Satan's words and characters that everyone would love.
By the way, notice George prefers Eve to Adam. If you attend to
the text carefully, you'll find that Satan and Eve have an awful lot
in common--they are both narcissistic, they both question
authority. Adam shares his qualities with God, or perhaps it is
better to say Christ--he's all rationality.
I think by the end of this discussion we'll understand George and
what motivates and attracts him than we'll understand this epic.
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (64 of 83), Read
55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 04, 2000 08:08 PM
For shame, Dan! Assuming that the word "better" is missing from
your last stage whisper to the audience, I propose that by the end
of this discussion we will understand both George and this epic
better. In the process we may also understand Blake and Shelley
better, because they agreed almost precisely with George's view
of it.
We may also understand Samuel Johnson and you better, too,
because you sound very much like him. I refer in part here to the
allure and strength of the portrayal of Satan, to which George
refers, and the seemingly weak portrayal of God, to which you
refer, among other things.
The discussion in this topic is almost perfectly replicating the
arguments about this work that have recurred over and over. Part
of the problem is that we come to this work with different
subjective viewpoints than Milton's immediate audience would
have. For example, God's realm as portrayed here strikes me as an
authoritarian state. This would not have troubled Milton's
contemporaries. In other words our subjective attitudes can tend
to undercut Milton's conscious intentions.
Moreover, Satan's rhetoric is so skillful! We are instructively
seduced. ("Subtle he needs must be, who could seduce Angels.")
Now one can chose to interpret and critique this work in any
fashion and from whatever viewpoint one wishes. (The subjective
approach of George and William Blake is perfectly valid, as is the
textual approach of Dan and Samuel Johnson.) However, I think if
one wishes to grasp Milton's own conscious intent, then a good
start would be to picture in your mind another masterful rhetorician
whenever you read Satan's speeches--Adolph Hitler.
Regardless of Satan's eloquence, his objective in the end is our
death. It is his motives that disqualify him as a tragic hero. (Blake
would argue that there are more meaningful things here than
Milton’s own conscious intent.)
As an aside, the Theory of Accommodation, in which Milton and
the great theologians of his time believed, was perfectly
consistent with giving God speech in this work, Dan. I must say
that it is a logical theory, too. (Jim can fill us in from Cliff's.)
Also, as you read on did you not notice a definite qualitative
difference in God's speeches compared with Satan's? I was
shocked that you considered them equally ornate, textualist that
you are. I fear we need to explore this question of Eve more, too.
Steve
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (65 of 83), Read
52 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 04, 2000 08:51 PM
Steve,
Bravo--great comments.
Janet
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (66 of 83), Read
53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, July 04, 2000 10:15 PM
Naw, Janet! I'm just trying to elbow my way into the brawl.
Steve
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (67 of 83), Read
48 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 04, 2000 10:31 PM
Strangely, I kind of appreciate the negative moral judgement Dan
seems to have reached concerning (at least my posting) self... I
am glad there are still readers this passionate out there at all.
He and I are actually in agreement where he says we disagree- I
too think Milton was confident in his ability as an author and a
believer to portray God, I simply dissent from the view that where
God is concerned the writing must automatically or by definition be
greater or more inherently valuable.
And, ironically, my true interest lies not in Satan at all... it lies
primarily in the shards of Lucifer that remain in Satan, which is
where I sense the power of PL's greatest lines (once again, to me)
stems from. It seems ridiculously redundant to attack Satan's
character, since he himself has done such a magnificent job for us
with his own words. He recognizes the irreparable change for the
worse he's undergone since he started entertaining thoughts of
rebellion... he just sees no way to reclaim himself while staying
true to himself. A horrible (and intensely dramatic) bind that I will
always believe plays a very significant role in making PL the
greatest poem of its length in the English language.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (68 of 83), Read
49 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 05, 2000 12:05 AM
George: I certainly agree with your assessment of Satan and his
role in the poem. And your description raises once again the
question: is Satan an heroic/tragic character, at least in the
classical, if not the Christian, tradition?
I could easily be the least formally educated person around here,
in terms of literature and its forms, but I always thought the
short-hand for classical tragedy was a character facing inevitable,
unavoidable ruin, and yet who maintains his dignity and fortitude
even in the face of this inevitability.
Nobility and good character as aspects of the tragic hero are
things that came later, after Christianity put its imprimatur on
literature, and even in that Christian period (as has been pointed
our by other posters previously) writers have taken great liberty
with the 'character' of their characters in post-classical works
(Macbeth, etc).
In the sense of my understanding of both a classical hero and
classical tragedy, Satan would fit the bill -- and why not? Wasn't
Satan pre-Christian himself? Perhaps Milton could cut a few
theological corners by casting Satan to be essentially a pagan
heroic figure.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (69 of 83), Read
48 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 05, 2000 03:32 AM
I'm really slow on this re-read of PARADISE LOST, but I thought I
would add a few thoughts here.
The God of Milton and the Old Testament in general, is not a warm
and fuzzy person (being?). It's his way or the highway. The sin
that Adam and Eve are guilty of, is "knowledge." For the life of me,
I cannot conceive of knowledge as a sin, a mortal one at that.
Satan offers knowledge. Who wouldn't accept? So you can't run
around naked, gamboling with the elephants and other species. Big
deal! But you have to die; bummer! Still, you are not in the zoo
anymore. But, you have to think; and take care of yourself. The
end of a carefree and unthinking existence, after naming all of the
animals of course.
Prometheus offered fire. And was chained to a rock for a similar
crime. Of course fire meant that man could control his local
environment, and give him time to think.
Gods don't like men to think; or stay warm. That doesn't seem
benign to me. But I was only a god once; when I had a dog. But it
was the dog who made me her god, I wasn't a god before or after;
just a short time. Was I any better in my treatment of my
worshipper?
And lest I forget. Look at the great loyalty of Satan's followers.
They are bound by individual desire. Considering the
consequences, the easy life they are giving up, this is a ringing
endorsement of Satan's ability to lead. And there may be some
management problems in Heaven PLC.
EDD
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (70 of 83), Read
55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, July 05, 2000 07:15 AM
Absolutely great points made by both of you, Dick and Edd! I
heartily agree with the position taken in both of your notes. My
only point is that we must understand that a 17th Century reader
would have put more of a premium on obedience to God rather
than knowledge. In disobedience lay the sin. Do I need to belabor
the fact that a 21st Century (or are we still in the 20th Century?)
American looks at this quite differently, and this is why Satan has
the appearance of a hero to us? I mean, Dick Haggart is a rank
radical in comparison to the thinkers of the 17th Century.
George, forgive me but I am going to say a bit more about the
Theory of Accommodation because it bears on this question
concerning the nature of God and the fact that he speaks (at
times remarkably like Jimmy Carter). The Puritans were not so dull
that they did not take into account the infinitude and
incomprehensibility of God. They readily admitted that our reason
is inadequate to grasp his nature. (Our reason allows us only to dip
a teaspoon out of the ocean.) Holy scripture is metaphorically
true, according to them, and is how God wishes our weak little
minds to conceive of him. . . . . .oh, hell! Here is what Milton
himself says:
"It is safest for us to form an image of God in our minds which
corresponds to his representation and description of himself in the
sacred writings. Admittedly, God is always described or outlined
not as he really is but in such a way as will make him conceivable
to us. Nevertheless, we ought to form just such a mental image of
him as he, in bringing himself within the limits of our understanding,
wishes us to form. Indeed he has brought himself down to our level
expressly to prevent our being carried beyond the reach of human
comprehension, and outside the written authority of scripture, into
vague subtleties of speculation."
Assuming the divinely inspired nature of the Old Testament, this all
makes a certain sense, and I believe justifies Milton giving God
speech, too. . . .assuming that he engaged in fervent prayer
before each writing session, and I have no doubt that he did.
Steve
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (71 of 83), Read
56 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 05, 2000 10:06 AM
Heh. Me as a radical. That's something to contemplate, in any age.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (72 of 83), Read
47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 05, 2000 01:28 PM
A couple of left-field comments, here...
To me, one of the many achievements of PL is that it serves as a
miraculous example of how imagination can transcend
ideology--particularly since, with our society's current boom in
so-called "Christian fiction" (don't get me started), the exact
opposite is the norm.
In John Gardner's book ON MORAL FICTION, he lambasts such
moralistic work for setting up "straw villains" which are then
whammed by the powers of goodness.
One of a fiction writer's few moral obligations to the reader,
Gardner argues, is not to play favorites with good or evil, but
rather to provide them a "level playing field" on which the battle
can take place. Anybody agree with me that Milton deserves
pretty darned high marks in this regard?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (73 of 83), Read
61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 05, 2000 03:55 PM
Lots of good stuff to work with here!
Steve--
Only you could make a brawl more heated with Accommodation... I
like it. And it definitely bears on Milton's intent.
Dick--
I half-agree with your statements... so hopefully you won't
unleash your cadre of radical anarchists on me.
I don't believe the 'hero' concept sheds much light on Lucifer, and
frankly, I don't believe in the accepted ideas on ancient heroism
either. I might be thick-headed, but I don't see Oedipus (for
example) retaining much dignity as he gallops over the corpses of
inconvenient old men, and I fail to see any hero whatsoever in The
Bacchae... but that's not the topic at hand.
Bloom once posited a spectrum of authorly self-esteem, with Kafka
at the negative pole and John Milton standing confidently at the
positive extreme. Milton thought he was chosen to write, and
damn near infallible (which is frighteningly close to being true!)
Now, I was struck by the very last lines of Book 9, where Milton
indites Adam and Eve for blaming everyone but themselves...
Milton seems to indicate that they'd be better off if they had the
capacity to be honestly or productively 'self-condemning'. In fact
Satan is, perhaps, the greatest example of clear-eyed
self-condemnation in Western literature... and this from an author
notoriously sure of himself and the rightness of his ideas!
Personally, I think Milton luxuriated in writing Satan's
inwardly-directed attack. I think it let him grow as an artist and a
man to indulge this introspection on a character so like Milton
himself but different enough to keep it comfortable when the
assault got too heated. This is just a wild guess of mine... but the
psychology of it has little to do with any traditional heroism... call
it intellectual or even scholarly heroism, which is my sense of what
PL is capable of giving us.
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (74 of 83), Read
34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 06, 2000 02:52 PM
Fascinating Miltonic quotes there, Stevie-Boy. I now comprehend
that my sense of Milton's authorial flaws was more a by-product of
my century than of any real flaws. Milton understood God well
enough to present a humane slice of him that the reader could (a)
comprehend, and (b) understand, and (c) get the goods on the
correct theology.
But Steve, you're on the same boat as me--you're attempting to
read PL from the angle of reader response. There are some literary
works (Paradise Lost and Moby Dick spring to mind offhand) in
which scrutinizing the reader offers so much more than just
analyzing the text. PL is a kind of litmus test regarding theology,
regarding political theory, regarding gender-roles, regarding
humanity and divinity. There is a solid bedrock within Milton's
verse, but it is so difficult to focus on with so many ripples on the
surface.
Not that I claim to know what that bedrock is exactly--I just love
the sound and the appearance of the ripples of this poem. The
manner in which themes appear, disperse, and reappear is
mesmerizing and worth the time spent contemplating them and
their significance. This poem gets deeper everytime it is read--and
I feel like I'm drowning of late.
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (75 of 83), Read
38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Thursday, July 06, 2000 04:07 PM
Duh, Dan! In the words of PeeWee Herman, I meant to do that!
Let's be realistic. This work has intrigued the greatest literary
intellects ever since it was published. I mentioned a few in my
earlier post. (Another, who considered it anathema, was T.S. Eliot,
but he was still intrigued.) The nearly unanimous verdict has been
that this epic in English is the equal of Homer and Virgil's stuff.
Milton is our English language Homer.
In the end there is little we can do in the course of one month on
the Constant Reader website to plumb the damned piece. Let me
propose a thing that is fun though. Trust me on this. I challenge
anyone who is reading this work to post not her or his twelve
favorite lines, not her or his ten favorite lines. . . .not even her or
his six favorite lines, but rather her or his two favorite lines here.
Trust me on this now! It will be a rewarding experience.
Steve
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (76 of 83), Read
39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 06, 2000 09:13 PM
Leave it to Steve-O to come up with this one.
My favorite "two lines" comes from the opening of Book VII where
Milton steps forward and entreats Urania to be his muse and to
help him continue his epic. Being a fan of reader response, I've
loved this apt phrase since I first encountered it:
...still govern thou my Song,
Urania, and fit audience find, though few.
(Book VII, ln. 30-31)
Dan
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (77 of 83), Read
31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Friday, July 07, 2000 07:04 AM
"There they their fill of love and love's disport
Took largely, of their mutual guilt the seal"
-- Jim, who believes in getting right to the good stuff
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (78 of 83), Read
34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, July 07, 2000 07:50 AM
I am afraid our minds work along the same channels, Jim, because
mine is:
Yielded with coy submission, modest pride
and sweet reluctant amorous delay.
Book 4 at 310-11.
Steve
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (79 of 83), Read
34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, July 07, 2000 08:47 AM
Steve--
Walter Savage Landor's mind worked right along side you... of your
choice he said: 'I had rather written these 2 lines than all the
poetry that has been written since Milton's time in all the regions
of the Earth."
Mine:
"And oft though wisdom wake, suspicion sleeps
At wisdom's gate, and to simplicity
Resigns her charge..."
(really 2 1/2 lines... sorry.)
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (80 of 83), Read
37 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@uswest.net)
Date:
Friday, July 07, 2000 09:55 AM
Haha! You caught me, George. I was aware of that famous
quotation from Mr. Landor. In fact that is where I got the idea for
this drill I suggested. It just so happens that I agree with him as a
result of his focusing my attention on this whole passage
concerning Eve. It is about as erotic a thing as I have ever read
and from a Puritan no less!
Steve
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (81 of 83), Read
38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, July 07, 2000 10:37 AM
Tough question. I like many, many couplets, but the visual ones
have always impressed me with Milton's skill:
So on this windy sea of land, the Fiend
Walked up and down alone bent on his prey."
And, I like this thoughtful, mournful comment on the ways to loss
and death:
For now I see
Peace to corrupt no less than war to waste.
The Chilbained Lawyer
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (82 of 83), Read
31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
George Healy (malword@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 08, 2000 09:16 AM
I'm gonna plow my little field a bit further.
I adjusted Steve's game some in my head and asked: 'What lines
are Satan's low point... his most criminal lie?' To me they are Book
9, 689-90. He's speaking to Eve (as the serpent) and says
(speaking of supposedly eating the apple):
"...look on me, me who have touched and tasted, yet both live,
and life more perfect have attained than fate meant me, by
venturing higher than my lot."
This is remarkable to me. S's current lie and his past are
transposed here, and his 'venturing', i.e, his rebellion, has led to
anything but a 'life more perfect'... as he well knows. It's
fascinating how S is compelled to re-enact his fall and his own
experiences with Eve, manipulating her into (falsely?) rising above
her station against God's will.
What light does this shed on S's criminality? I think his only true
crime was leading others down his path. Had he rebelled alone, his
conscience would be relatively clear. In fact, a reconciliation
between him and God wouldn't be out of the question if he hadn't
his followers to consider. S's initial rebellion had the charm of
ignorance... he presumably thought that he really had a chance to
unseat God. When he perpetrates the same crime on Eve, this time
painfully aware that God's retribution would certainly fall on Eve-
well, the pattern is clear. I think Milton is telling us that Satan is
not SURE enough of his own powers; instead of just thinking them
through (as Milton does) he unfortunately must act them out in
the lives of others. This, to me, is his truly fatal flaw. By my
reading of it, Satan should never have rebelled... he should have
withdrawn into seclusion, plucked a quill from his own wing, and
sat down to begin the therapeutic process of writing, say,
'Paradise Lost'...?
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (83 of 83), Read
20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Monday, July 10, 2000 02:26 PM
Hi everybody,
I have not been active on this board as I do have problems with
reading Milton. English is not my native tongue and that may be
one of the reasons. I continue on with considerable difficulties but
I am afraid I do not appreciate the fine language of his poetry.
Well poetry has never been my favorite and I find Mil ton's
language most difficult. I had my wife read some to me while I
followed with my own reading and this I found much more
productive. Well, I shall carry on to the best of my ability. In the
meantime I am also looking forward to Middlemarch.
Ernie
Topic:
JULY DISCUSSION -- Paradise Lost by John Milton (84 of 84), Read
12 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Thursday, July 20, 2000 08:38 AM
It is probably worth saying that Milton is a pain in the neck to read
even if English is your native language. Even Keats complained
about the inverted sentences where half of the adventure is trying
to figure out what the subject and verb are going to be. And Dr,
Samuel Johnson said that he didn't think that anyone ever wished
that Paradise Lost had gone on just a bit longer.
What makes the book worth the trouble is the basic nobility of the
prose. In some ways, all those subordinate clauses sound like a
little fanfare announcing the arrival of the subject of the sentence.
The basic conception adds quite a bit of nobility, too. Life is much
grander if we see it as a crucial part in the battle between God
and Satan than if it is simply part of the nitrogen cycle, a moment
of consciousness between two voids.
One of Milton's other problems for many readers is that the
narrative flow ends when Eve eats the apple in book IX. The rest
is pretty much theology and a rehash of the Old Testament.
And yet, I love the moment in Book X when Satan announces his
victory to the other demons:
"So having said, a while he stood, expecting
Their universal shout and high applause
To fill his ear, when contrary he hears
On all sides from innumerable tongues
A dismal universal hiss, the sound
Of public scorn; he wondered, but not long
Had leisure, wond'ring at himself now more;
His visage drawn he felt to sharp and spare,
His arms clung to his ribs, his legs entwining
Each other, till supplanted down he fell
A monstrous serpent on his belly prone,
Reluctant, but in vain; a greater power
Now ruled him, punished in the shape he sinned,
According to his doom: he would have spoke,
But hiss for hiss returned with forked tongue
To forked tongue, for now were all transformed
Alike to serpents all as accessories
To his bold riot: dreadful was the din .."
I also like the description of the Great Flood in Book XI: " and in
their palaces/ Where late luxury reigned, sea monsters whelped/
and stabled."
I suspect the secret to enjoying Milton, and probably most things,
is not worrying about all of the things that are missing and just
appreciating what showed up.
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