To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/17
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 1:02 PM
Steve, Ann, Barbara, Princesses, et al: I was emboldened
enough by my (apparent) understanding of the story "A Real
Life" in Munro's collection OPEN SECRETS to venture farther,
reading the title story and "Spaceships Have Landed" last
night to soothe my mind after the family Easter hurrah.
But now I find myself in over my head again, and
desperately seeking enlightenment.
I think Munro's style is gorgeous, distinctive, and
occasionally studded with those small turns of phrase that
capture a difficult concept so perfectly, and so simply, you
wonder why nobody's ever thought to say it that way before.
The stories are thick with a beautifully understated
atmosphere partway between menace and mysticism--an
atmosphere created as much by what's NOT said as by what is.
And her skill at juggling point-of-view and narrative
transitions is amazing.
But...
Each story seems to end with a definite Joyce-like
epiphany in which the "secret" is laid open for all. But I'm
left clueless as to what the endings mean, and how they
relate to everything that went before. It's not that I'm of
two minds about the ending, as in some stories that leave
you with a delicious ambiguity--wondering whether (a) or
(b), both equally valid outcomes, is the case. With much of
Munro I'm of NO mind about the ending, i.e. in the dark.
For instance, the last line of "Open Secrets," when it's
said of Maureen, who's making custard, "...In kitchens
hundreds and thousands of miles away, she'll watch the soft
skin form on the back of a wooden spoon and her memory will
twitch, but it will not quite reveal to her this moment when
she seems to be looking into an open secret, something not
startling until you think of trying to tell it."
Meaning (as I suspect, from the choice of language) that
something in what she's seen or heard that day gives her a
specific clue about what really happened to the missing
girl? Or rather, is she just feeling a general amazement at
how weird and unknowable the world is?
Comments, please.
Reptilian-brained Dale in Puzzled, Ala.
=============== Reply 3 of Note 1 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/17
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 2:15 PM
Dale,
I love that you all are reading one of my favorite
writers with me. I enjoyed "A Real Life" as well. I liked
Dorrie Beck intensely and loved the interplay between these
three women who were symbols (to me) of three such very
different kinds of women.
However, I too am stumped by "Open Secrets". I don't
have a clue what the hand pushed onto the burner signifies
and who Maureen sees doing that. I got the feeling that
she thinks that Theo, Marian's husband, had something to do
with the girl's disappearance and that they are trying to
blame it on Mr. Siddicup, but I didn't understand how it
all came together. Ellen said on another note that she's
reading these stories too, so I'm hoping she'll have some
insights...or maybe others who are reading this collection?
I enjoyed your description of Munro's style. It put into
words so many things that I feel about her writing. Also,
the characters that she frequently uses in her stories
remind me of my relatives in Nebraska or people I grew up
with in Indiana, though her's are freqently from small
towns in Ontario. In "Open Secrets" when she said,
"Like many country women and Carstairs women too, she
referred to her husband as *he*-it was spoken with a
special emphasis-rather than calling him by his name", I
thought how often I've noted the same habit of language
in certain women.
I also loved the following description of adolescent
girls:
"She remembered how noisy she had been then. A shrieker,
a dare-taker. Just before she hit high school, a giddiness
either genuine or faked or half-and-half became available
to her. Soon it vanished, her bold body vanished inside
this ample one, and she became a studious, shy girl, a
blusher. She developed the qualities her husband would see
and value when hiring and proposing."
"*I dare you to run away.* Was it possible? There are
times when girls are inspired, when they want the risks to
go on and on. They want to be heroines, regardless. They
want to take a joke beyond where anybody has ever taken it
before. To be careless, dauntless, to create havoc--that
was the last hope of girls."
I never fail to smile and nod by head at some
point while I'm reading a Munro story. And, that's keeps
me reading them even when I'm puzzled by an ending such as
the one in "Open Secret".
Again, can anyone else enlighten us?
Barbara
=============== Reply 4 of Note 1 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/17
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 7:46 PM
OPEN SECRETS readers:
Dale, I liked your note about these stories. Although I
don't doubt that they are very well written, I found myself
unsatisfied after reading most of them, wondering what had
really happened. I had to keep reminding myself that the
title of the book was OPEN SECRETS, so maybe the plot was a
secret from the readers as well. At the end of the Albanian
Virgin I wanted some resolution, instead of the couple just
leaving the hospital. Perhaps because they were short
stories rather than novels, I found I didn't get too
emotionally involved with any of the characters. The one
exception that I remember was the story about the librarian
who had the young, unknown soldier fall in love with her and
write her letters during the war. Then he died in a hideous
accident. What about the end of that story? It was really
unusual and I didn't know what to think about it at all.
Have any of you gotten to that yet? Sorry, I don't remember
the name of the story. It's been awhile since I read it.
=============== Reply 5 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/18
From: VRCH78A ALLEN CROCKER Time: 0:24 AM
I believe I have an explanation for these differences
in the ways men's and women's brains operate: deep inside
every male's cranium there must be what we may call a
Neural Resource Allocation Center, whose task it is to
evaluate demands being made on the brain and assign them to
this or that lobe, gyrus, or convolution. (Picture a little
guy sitting in a chamber of wall-to-wall switchboards.) So,
when faced with one of the problems they give to subjects
in these kinds of experiments, the immediate reaction is:
"If you think I'm releasing one synapse more than the
minimum to deal with this tripe, you're nuts!" I bet that
if you gave a guy in such a study something meaningful and
significant to do, like, for example, analyzing a page of
box scores, you'd see lights going on all over the place.
How ever did we get to this point from Theresa's
original note about THE ENGLISH PATIENT? What an unruly
lot this is.....
Allen
=============== Reply 6 of Note 1 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 04/18
From: SACQ68B LISA GUIDARINI Time: 4:09 PM
Hi, Theresa!
I've been crouching in the corner of CR for a while now, and
I've decided to pop up today for an answer to your survey.
I admire GREATLY the style of Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and
I've been singing his praises elsewhere on the boards
whenever I get the chance to plug him. His writing style is
nothing less than magical.
Lisa, crouching no more
=============== Reply 7 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/18
From: ERFN90B ELLEN JOHNSON Time: 6:22 PM
Hi Barbara, and all OPEN SECRET readers,
Thanks for letting me know the discussion about this
book was going on in this note...I was missing it all along.
In THE ALBANIAN VIRGIN, I agree with you Barbara that
Lottar and the Franciscan are the same as Charlotte and
Gjurdhi. My question is...did anyone get the impression
that Gjurdhi stole the money from the notary and killed him?
"I was also thinking about the notary public, who had been
beaten about the head the night before, in his office on
Johnson Steet." Why else would this be mentioned. After-
words, Gjurdhi comes to the hospital and is throwing around
piles of money. What do you think?
And in CARRIED AWY, which I enjoyed reading
tremendously as I felt the librarian was a well drawn
character, was she talking to the soldier at the end? Did
he manufacture his death somehow to escape? I couldn't
really figure out how he could have done that. Or was she
dreaming that she was talking with him? Help!
The stories are puzzles but I am enjoying them very
much as I like a challenge.
And two more quick thoughts on THE ALBANIAN
VIRGIN...didn't the story loosely remind you of THE FRENCH
LEIUTENANTS WOMAN with the connected relationships,and what
does all this say about the narrator's relationship with her
returned lover, Nelson? I didn't care for any of the three
men in the story, Nelson, Gjurdhi or the Franciscan but
liked all three of the women and will have to ponder that
point for a while also.
Ellen
**********
To: SACQ68B LISA GUIDARINI Date: 04/19
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 0:12 AM
Lisa: The only thing better than having a former lurker join
the Constant Reader extended family (welcome!) is if he/she
arrives with praise of my favorite author, Gabriel
Garcia-Marquez.
There's been sporadic debate here as to whether a
particular writer or book can actually "influence" someone,
but I must say that since I first read GG-M's ONE HUNDRED
YEARS OF SOLITUDE, 15 years or so ago, my reading and
writing lives have never been the same.
I'm also in awe of his short stories, such as "The
Handsomest Drowned Man in the World" and "A Very Old Man
with Enormous Wings," which have changed the way I view the
world and have added a powerful interpretive voice to my
subconscious.
As we say here in the South, whereabouts are you from?
Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 4 of Note 2 =================
To: ERFN90B ELLEN JOHNSON Date: 04/19
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 8:54 AM
Ellen--Glad you found us and glad that it occurred to me
that the discussion might be hard to find under an English
Patient note!
I had never thought about Gjurdi stealing the money from
the notary public, but that certainly makes sense. Munro
does throw in a lot of information in stories that I can't
connect to anything. I never mind because I like the
stories so much. Would like to believe that the death of
the notary public was incidental because I hate to think
that Gjurdi had none of the Franciscan priest left in him,
but his religion in Maltsia e madhe certainly did seem to
be of the pragmatic sort.
Also, I haven't read THE FRENCH LEIUTENANT'S WOMAN for a
*long* time so I can't compare them (unfortunately.) I'm
trying to remember if there are male characters in Munro's
stories that are truly clear or that I like much--that's a
sobering thought, eh? Her female characters ring so true
with me, to a greater extent than any other author I can
think of at the moment, that I hadn't noticed the lacking
in the male ones.
In CARRIED AWAY, I thought that the whole final scene
with Jack Agnew was a hallucination (maybe too strong a
word...maybe more like mental wandering). Remember that
she had gone to Toronto to see a heart specialist and that
the doctor said that "her heart was a little wonky and her
pulse inclined to be jumpy" (couldn't you relate to her
irritation with doctors who patronizingly describe things
like that?!?). Then, when she crossed through the park and
saw the gathering, she said that she was beginning to feel
a "faintly sickening, familiar agitation. She could feel
that over nothing. But once it got going, telling herself
that it was over nothing did no good." I sort of felt that
the stress of her life had finally caught up with her, with
maybe some anxiety attacks and periods of leaving reality.
When I went back and thought through the events of her life
as they are given piecemeal throughout the story, she had
learned to be one of those stalwart sorts who represses her
own needs to cope with what life has given her. Other than
the doctor in the sanitorium when she was a girl, Agnew
represented her one romantic hope, memory, etc. Does any
of that make sense or am I just off rambling?
What did you think of "A Real Life"? I couldn't get over
how much I liked the character of Dorrie. And I liked the
constrast of her with Millicent and Muriel.
And also loved "A Wilderness Station". In the front of
the book, it says "Some parts of the journal section of 'A
Wilderness Station" are taken from the account written by
Robert B. Laidlaw in 1907.' " I've read one other story of
her's that tells the story of a woman in an earlier time
period based on historical papers that she had found and
that one was excellent too.
And, what about the "Open Secrets" story that Dale and I
were talking about. For me, that was the most puzzling
story yet (I'm only as far as "Wilderness Station".
When love to know what others thought about it. I don't
understand the hand on the stove, etc.
Saw your comments in Classics regarding short stories
and I agree totally. Short stories are an art form in and
of themselves to me and I always hate to see them treated
as some lesser form.
Barbara
=============== Reply 5 of Note 2 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/19
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 8:54 AM
Ann--Meant to get back to you right away on your note, but
my life got in the way. Hopefully, you'll read the note
before this one about the story that you are talking about
("Carried Away"). Let us know what you think. Barb
=============== Reply 6 of Note 2 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/19
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 10:59 PM
Barb,
I wasn't sure what to make of the ending of Carried Away,
although it was my favorite story in OPEN SECRETS. This
seems crazy, but I almost felt that there was some kind of
parallel universe in which Jack Agnew really did survive and
have another life. I think your explanation actually makes
the most sense.
Ann
=============== Reply 7 of Note 2 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/19
From: ERFN90B ELLEN JOHNSON Time: 11:47 PM
Ann,
In CARRIED AWAY, Jack thinks his life is successful in
the fact that his wife and daughter a doing quite well when
actually they are not. I wondered what you think about
this? Does this mean that Jack was always a dreamer
beginning with his letters to a girl professing love when he
actually had an engagement going at home and now continuing
with the fact that he thinks his daughter is a teacher when
she actually is a part-time maid.
I think the parallel universe theory sounds realistic
too. Maybe this is what was going on in THE ALBANIAN VIRGIN
with Gjurdhi and Charlotte. And still I want to know what
Charlotte, Gjurdhi, the Franciscan and Lottar had to do with
the narrator and her love relationship, who reappears out of
nowhere in the end. Help!
Ellen
=============== Reply 8 of Note 2 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/20
From: ERFN90B ELLEN JOHNSON Time: 11:16 AM
Ann, Barbara et.al,
One more thought on CARRIED AWAY....when she is
talking (?) to Jack and mentally commenting how he is
fooling himself about his poor family, couldn't this somehow
show that she is in control and Jack is out of control,
making her feel better about being 'carried away' with the
original love affair. This would show that she made
something out of her life...marrying the well to do man,
wearing nicer clothes than the average woman, giving
hand-me-downs to Jack's family....she is the victor in the
end. Maybe she needed this to keep her self-esteem. If
this , indeed, is Munro's point then it shows the strength
of this woman, as all the stories show women overcoming
their circumstances, yet Munro does it such a subtle manner.
Ellen
=============== Reply 9 of Note 2 =================
To: SACQ68B LISA GUIDARINI Date: 04/20
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 6:35 PM
greetings THERESA...you highly recommend SANCHEZ'S book...i
shall acquire it quickly...i desperately need a book to
INTERRUPT MY LIFE....
keep those reco's coming...
gail..a passionate reader in awfully windy SAN
FRANCISCO...where i would pass on the film JEFFERSON IN
PARIS...nolte is so repellent...repulsive..repugnant...that
even the elegant costuming and scenery could not eraseNOLTE
from my thoughts....
=============== Reply 10 of Note 2 =================
To: ERFN90B ELLEN JOHNSON Date: 04/21
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 9:03 AM
I sort of like that idea about a parallel universe, Ann.
It fits with some of the feelings I get about a sort of
mysticism in some of the stories in this book.
Also, Ellen, the control theory makes sense to me as well.
By the way, do you think that titling the book Open Secrets
has something to do with open secrets on the subject of
survival...or was this just the decision of an editor to
pull one of the titles of the stories to name the whole
book.
Haven't gone back and re-read the whole story of "The
Albanian Virgin" again as I meant to when I read your
questions about how Nelson related to the whole thing.
However, I did note in glancing through it that Nelson was
from that city that she went to in the first place (was the
smartest kid in the class, etc.). Could he be Gjurdi and
Charlotte's son? Or is that too far out??
And, please oh please, tell me what you thought of the
story "Open Secrets." Barbara
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/21
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 9:46 PM
Oh, I hate it when I say something stupid, upload it to
the bulletin board and then can't delete it from the boards.
The bookstore is in Victoria, British Columbia. Nelson was
from northern Ontario. So, please forget that I ever made
the remark in my last note, re: Nelson, Gjurdi and
Charlotte.
Reread the story tonight and the only connection I could
glean was having her discovering Nelson inside the
bookstore and not realizing who he was until he bumped her
shoulder just before they tell the story of Lottar seeing
the Franciscan's "wan face hanging in the tree." There's
sort of this whole comparison of her relationship with
Nelson with Charlotte and Gjurdi's relationship. I assumed
when I first read it that the aim was to point to the
emptiness of the relationship with Nelson, but am not so
sure now.... Barbara
=============== Reply 3 of Note 2 =================
To: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Date: 04/21
From: SACQ68B LISA GUIDARINI Time: 11:42 PM
But do you like Nolte?
Lisa
=============== Reply 4 of Note 2 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/22
From: CUFZ01B SARAH HART Time: 2:57 AM
Okay, all you Munro fans out there (see what you've
started, Barbara?)--I plunged into Border's and claimed
'Open Secrets' for my very own. I was afraid to get
further behind, and I purposely read very little of the
previous discussions so that I could form my own
impressions, such as they are. Having now finished 'The
Albanian Virgin' (as that had engendered such serious
debate) I just read the notes pertaining to that gem.
First, may I say that now (sorry Dale, Steve) I
understand Sara, Ann, and Barbara's incredulity that the
connection between Lottar/Charlotte and the
Fransciscan/Gjurdhi was not more apparent to the male
readers. I, too, SWEAR that I read no notes that would
have clued me in. I was all prepared, as I read through
your posts tonight, to elucidate the details, but I find
Barbara has done a stunning job most worthy of the one who
proposed the book in the first place. That being said, I
truly enjoyed Munro's spectacular flow through this great
story. There is nothing like being thrown right into the
action, and being carried through the Maltsia e madhe
wrapped in a wool blanket and bathed in raki, then spending
a few years with the Ghegs, certainly qualifies for an
abrupt opening. The part that left me interested?
uncomfortable? yearning for more explanation? was her
unquestioning and totally accepting attitude toward her new
life with the Ghegs. Munro spends very little time with
the internal life of her characters; Claire is granted a
few musings about Nelson, Donald, and Charlotte, but
generally the story moves on very briskly.
thanks, Barbara, for recommending this...I am on to read
"A Real Life,' which I gather from skimming your notes is
the next one discussed. One of these days I'll catch up to
you.
Princess Sarah 4/21/95 11:56PM MT
=============== Reply 5 of Note 2 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/22
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 7:46 AM
greetings BARBARA...
oh yes..you can delete it...i read somewhere and wrote it
down for further....it was one of the tidbits i learned
recently...i decided ..slowly but surely..i would learn my
computer this year....
i have it written in my little BIBLE...and as soon as i
locate it will transmit the information to you...
gail..a passionate reader enjoying A RIVER SUTRA by gita
mehta..i am now in INDIA..inconjunction with THE HOUSE OF
MR. BISWAS by v.s.naipual..AND that location is TRINIDAD...
=============== Reply 6 of Note 2 =================
To: CUFZ01B SARAH HART Date: 04/22
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 7:53 AM
greetings PRINCESS SARAH...CERTIFIED BOOK
JUNKIE...BARBARA...ELLEN OF BRANDON...WILD MAN...
i have not been reading your dialogue on OPEN SECRETS for
fear i would become infected and had to rush out and procure
the book...it was on the shelf on my library and i said
'no'..I WOULD not get involved...
now a friend rings me up and mentions one of the stories
that is exceptional...
QUESTION...which one...would you recommend...i
stillthink about SHIRLEY JACKSON'S THE LOTTERY...perhaps one
day we and chat about that gem....
LOVELY SARA...i think i glanced at your name who is contri
buting to this lengthy subject....don't want to miss anyone
gail..a passionate reader who is immersed in THE HOUSE OF
MR. BISWAS by v.s. naipual..transported to TRINIDAD and also
finishing up A RIVER SUTRA by gita mehta..transported to
INDIA...
it sounds as if i really need to drift out of the UNITED
STATES at the present...you are correct...news is not
pretty...lately...as you all are cognizant ..thank god for
our magical carpets....our WORLD OF BOOKS..
=============== Reply 7 of Note 2 =================
To: SACQ68B LISA GUIDARINI Date: 04/22
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 8:02 AM
greetings LISA...
yes i am definitely into MAGICAL books...and the latin
american writers engender books of that category...i am now
reading THE HOUSE OF MR. BISWAS by v.s.naipaul..which has
transported me to TRINIDAD...i am enjoying the chacters and
it is a large book which will keep me involved for
sometime...
gail..a passionate reader in sunny and beautiful san
francisco...NOLTE is simply awful in the part of
JEFFERSON...he was never my favorite but i was able to
tolerate him......every since i viewed the film ..i have
been staying far away from the theatres...however today i wi
ll break that pattern....
LISA..so glad you are joining up...what are you reading..i
am always anxious to learn of what you all are immersed
in......any INTERRUPTER'S OF LIFE ..books...
you must have read my notes on CORELLI'S MANDOLIN ..A REAL
interrupter of life...
=============== Reply 8 of Note 2 =================
To: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Date: 04/22
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 8:40 AM
greetings BARBARA...
searched for my notes on deletion and here goes..
MAIN MENU...GUIDELINES...HELP AND NOTE ALERT
screen will appear allowing you to choose PROBLEM NOTE ALERT
click and request note removal...
gail..a passionate reader who is delighted to share some of
my limited knowledge to all...
=============== Reply 9 of Note 2 =================
To: CUFZ01B SARAH HART Date: 04/22
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:31 AM
Oh good, Sarah. Glad you've "joined on." Re:
Charlotte's "unquestioning and totally accepting attitude
toward her new life with the Ghegs", I must say it didn't
strike me as unusual at all. Probably a good parallel is
Patty Hearst's kidnapping and brainwashing by the SLA (or
am I recalling something from ancient history that no one
will remember?). When you have total control of a person's
environment with no help to be had, people usually come
around to your way of thinking. I also think she sort of
started enjoying the positive sides of their culture. The
following excerpt sort of says it for me:
"Lottar no longer spoke to the priest about going to
Skodra. She understood now that it must be a long way away.
Sometimes she asked if he had heard anything, if anybody
was looking for her, and he would say, sternly, no one.
When she thought of how she had been during those first
weeks--giving orders, speaking English without
embarrassment, sure that her special case merited
attention--she was ashamed at how little she had
understood. And the longer she stayed at the kula, the
better she spoke the language and became accustomed to the
work, the stranger was the thought of leaving. Someday she
must go, but how could it be now? How could she leave in
the middle of the tobacco-picking or the sumac harvest, or
during the preparations for the feast of the Translation of
St. Nicholas?"
Also, your comment that Munro spends very little time
with the internal life of her characters is very true. I
usually like a lot more "internal life" in my reading, but,
for some reason, Munro's stories pull me in anyway. As I
thought about that, remembered reading a book of Raymond
Carver's (do I have his name right?) short stories last
summer after reading about him on one of the boards (CR, I
think). His sort of minimalist realism seems to be
somewhat present in these stories of Munro's. I know that
Carver is much more of a force than I, in my ignorance last
summer, realized, so it makes sense that this might be true.
Remember reading Dale say that Nicholson Baker had been a
student of his, I think (though Baker's characters have an
*enormous* inner life.)
In any case, am looking forward to your comments. These
stories are much more fun with this great discussion group.
Barb
(my husband pointed out to me this morning that F. Lee
Bailey--ahead of his time--first asserted the "stress
syndrome" defense to a crime in Patty Hearst's case. Now
it is being used as a defense in domestic abuse cases and
was used in a parental abuse case with the Menendez
brothers. At the time, everyone thought that Bailey was a
little crazy.)
=============== Reply 10 of Note 2 =================
To: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Date: 04/22
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:31 AM
But, gail, I don't think I can delete it from the boards on
Prodigy once I've uploaded it, can I? Let me know how if I
can, just for future reference. Actually with a little
distance from my silly comment that precipitated this note,
I'm not as embarrassed as I was initially.
And I think that "The Albanian Virgin" is probably the
one that would initiate the most discussion if our
experience here is any indicator--for a book group, etc.
Two that I don't find to be as much of a puzzle--just
enjoyable reading--are "A Real Life" and "A Wildnerness
Station."
And, gail, I remember that you don't like short stories
because you want the characters to go on and develop, so I
assumed you wouldn't join in on this (though we miss you.)
I can certainly relate to those feelings, but somehow the
art of forming these little nuggets in such a circumscribed
number of pages always fascinates me. Which story did your
friend comment on? And what did she say? Barbara
=============== Reply 11 of Note 2 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/22
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:31 AM
So, Steve and Dale, where did y'all go? Did you give up on
Munro? We miss you! Barbara
=============== Reply 12 of Note 2 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/22
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 4:36 PM
Barbara: I shall return...to Munro, I mean. Just as soon as
I find a stopping place in CORELLI'S MANDOLIN (much easier
said than done), and tie up some loose ends from earning my
daily bread. Groan.
I hadn't realized until Sarah mentioned it, though, how
comparatively cut off we are from the inner lives of Munro's
characters. We come to know them almost entirely by what
they do and say, not by what they think.
As a result, when one of them takes some bizarre course of
action at the end, I might look back at their previous
behavior and think, "Well, I should have seen that coming"
(though, me being a male, usually not), but their
reasons remain a mystery.
It occurs to me the same thing might be said of fables and
fairy tales in general--which much of Munro's work reminds
me of, somehow. They appeal more to the intuitive part of
the brain than to our sense of logic.
By comparison, a writer such as Anne Tyler is certainly no
stranger to oddball characters--but she usually lets us
vicariously follow their inner reasoning, no matter how
skewed or convoluted, which to me is a big part of the
attraction of her work.
(My favorite Tyler lines, from ACCIDENTAL TOURIST:
She: "What kind of work do you do?"
He: "I make bottle caps."
She: "Ah."
He (modestly): "Well, it's not as interesting as it
sounds.")
In any event, I'm glad there are so many kinds of writers
(and readers), and I'm glad I got introduced to Munro's
striking stories through CR.
Dale in Ala.
(PS: Please backdate several days and check the Southern
Writers subject; I replied to your note about Pat Conroy but
accidentally mislabled it. If you can't locate it, let me
know and I'll re-post.)
=============== Reply 13 of Note 2 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/22
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 5:46 PM
Dale: Will look forward to your return. Do you see any
similarity in these stories of Munro's and Carver's? Am
hoping that I have the name right. The book I read last
summer was CATHEDRAL. The books I've read before of
Munro's (THE BEGGAR MAID, FRIEND OF MY YOUTH and LIVES OF
GIRLS AND WOMEN) were much less puzzling, more to the style
of "A Real Life."
I like Tyler too. Always read her books, but don't tend
to like her characters as much as Munro's. Love those
lines you quoted though.
And check for my reply on Southern Writers--finally got
it on there. Barbara
=============== Reply 14 of Note 2 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/22
From: CUFZ01B SARAH HART Time: 7:15 PM
Last night, after posting my reaction to 'The Albanian
Virgin,' I lay awake pondering the connection between the
foursome. Perhaps this makes sense--the Fransciscan
followed Charlotte, who in a sense was embarking on new
territory (even though it really was a return). He felt
able to accompany her where she was going, and wanted to be
a fellow journeyer (?) in her life. Similarly, Nelson
finally decided to follow Claire and join in her life.
Both women thought they had lost the men; Charlotte, when
she called and called for him, and thought he was gone
until he appeared at the dock, and Claire, who kept writing
Nelson letters until he appeared where she was not
expecting him. Might be kind of stretching it, but it made
sense last night at 1:30 AM.
Princess Sarah 4/22/95 4:14PM MT
=============== Reply 15 of Note 2 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/23
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 2:13 PM
The story OPEN SECRETS is a haunting one, Dale--a real
nightmarish tale, I think. Here is my take on it for what
it's worth. Maureen is such a highly intuitive female that
she is a near clairvoyant. She has visions at times of a
parallel life that she has lived or is living. (Perhaps a
better title for this collection would have been PARALLEL
LIVES.) She has visions, but her visions are wispy ones of
events that have actually occurred.
I am certain that Theo Slater, Marian's husband sexually
molested and killed Heather Bell. This occurred after
Heather took the game of Truth or Dare too seriously and
determined to actually run away. She did hate her mother.
Please see page 139. Unfortunately, she happened upon Theo
in the process, this while Marian was back home drugged
with the pain killers.
Here are the clues as I see them. Heather was a
sexually precocious child. She was the most rambunctious
of the lot when the girls were spraying each other with the
hose in Theo and Marian's yard earlier in the day. Please
see the description of that at the top of page 130. Theo
participated in that. Please see the top of page 151.
This girl's hijinx aroused him then.
Marian is a take charge woman who finally has a man, and
defective as he is, one with whom she is not dissatisfied
and certainly the only one she will ever have. She does
not want to lose him to a prosecution for this crime. She
therefore determines to divert suspicion to the mentally
defective Mr. Siddicup. This is the reason that she comes
to Lawyer Stephens with her tale of Mr. Siddicup's
pantomime that she witnessed. Did she invent this story
entirely, or was there some truth to it? I think there was
truth to it. I think Mr. Siddicup actually witnessed the
murder, but was simply incapable of communicating
accurately what he had seen. But this is what gave Marian
her first clue as to what had happened. She interrogated
her husband, found out that he had done it, and devised a
plan to throw suspicion elsewhere.
Now as to the vision of the hand on the burner that
Maureen sees while she is stirring the custard, there can
be no doubt that this is Theo's hand. In fact it it clear
that she recognizes it as such. I believe that while
Marian works hard to protect her husband from the
authorities, she also determines that he must be punished
for his crime, like a child. They mutually agree that his
punishment will be to have his hand burned on the stove.
She does this with the sick rascal's cooperation.
Why do I believe that there was a sexual assault that
evolved into a murder? Because Maureen has a vision of
Theo's hand in the feathers while she herself is
essentially being sexually assaulted by her own sick
husband. Please see page 156. So Maureen was in on the
secret for a moment, but she is amnesiac about her visions
in later years when she only has a twitch of memory as she
stirs custard.
I'll tell you! What a black, nightmarish, troubling
story this is! What a collection of male characters!
Gives me the shivers!
Steve 4/23/95 1:09PM CT
=============== Reply 16 of Note 2 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/23
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 5:13 PM
I'm here! I'm here, Barbara! With bells on my toes.
Was it you that offered the praise of the short story as an
art form here a short time ago? I purged my notes recently
and lost that one. It must have been you. I couldn't
agree more. It seems to me that there is this notion out
and about that writers do short stories for the most part
to hone their skills for the effort at the big novel, and
therefore, it is some lesser form. Actually, it seems to
me that the short story must be extremely difficult in its
own way. I have read of great writers rewriting and
rewriting and rewriting a short story over a period of
years in the attempt to leave out just enough, include just
enough, and insure that every single word is precisely the
right word. In no other form is the art of omission so
critical. It is what is left out, as opposed to what is
included, that gives the form eloquence.
Which brings me to a public atonement that I wish to
make here. Ernest Hemingway has been the butt of no few
jokes here on this board, and I have participated in them
as avidly as any. Certainly, there is much to criticize in
his novels, although I am confident that A FAREWELL TO ARMS
and THE SUN ALSO RISES will endure. But I would submit in
all seriousness that he is the best male short story writer
this country has ever produced, although admittedly not
for everyone. I say that because of the large number of
stories of consistently good quality. It would be a shame
if readers put off by some of the tripe in his later
novels, or the ass that the man himself could be, were to
miss the opportunity of some of these stories. In his
later novels it seems to me that he created the illusion of
depth with that spare style and the terse bons mots from
his characters, but it was only that--an illusion. The
short stories, however, have real depth, whether the
emphasis be on a character sketch or the portrayal of an
emotion or a meaningful exchange between characters. One
of my personal favorites, although certainly not his best,
is one of the Nick Adams stories, THE BATTLER. I love that
story.
So there. I feel better. I have given the man his due
as I see it.
Steve 4/23/95 4:07PM
CT
=============== Reply 17 of Note 2 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/23
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 6:04 PM
Steve: Holy ****!, as we say here on the family BBs.
Absolutely brilliant, if I may say, and convincing in every
particular. If this is the work of a male/reptilian brain,
I'm proud to be of the same species. Tell the truth...you
haven't gone and had a sex-change on us, have you?
A dark, dark, dark story indeed. Munro's males are a
pretty sorry lot. Most are, as my old granddad would say,
"not worth the powder and lead it'd take to shoot 'em..."
As opposed to KNOWLEDGE OF ANGELS, which I believe
contained the greatest number of noble characters--of both
sexes--in one volume I've ever seen.
Congratulations again on an insightful analysis,
Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 18 of Note 2 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/23
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 7:22 PM
No sex change, Dale. I have resolved never to go any
further than a simple neutering. If I had gotten that done
thirty years ago, I figure that I would be worth
approximately $3.1 million now--net. That's a conservative
estimate.
Geez, do you really think I finally nailed one of these
stories? I am going to sit back and enjoy this puffy
chested feeling until the female CR contigent descends
upons my theory and picks it apart down to the bone.
Steve 4/23/95 6:20PM CT
=============== Reply 19 of Note 2 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/23
From: NPVX84A MARIA BUSTILLOS Time: 9:17 PM
Wild man, v. delighted to see that your literary criticism
comes complete with page-numbered citations; I found this
care and caution both disarming and entirely unexpected,
given your usual recklessness. Not that I'm going to take
the unnecessary step of reading the story in question--it
sounds too scary.
=============== Reply 20 of Note 2 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/23
From: NPVX84A MARIA BUSTILLOS Time: 9:18 PM
No chance. Poe has Hemingway beat eight thousand different
ways.
=============== Reply 21 of Note 2 =================
To: NPVX84A MARIA BUSTILLOS Date: 04/23
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 9:36 PM
It's close I admit, Cherie, and Edgar's name did flit
across my mind as I wrote that, but the Kewpie doll goes to
Ernest. Trust me on this one.
Steve 4/23/95 8:33PM CT
=============== Reply 22 of Note 2 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/23
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:05 PM
Steve, you are definitely back! Why the long absence?
Your explanation of the "Open Secrets" story is intriguing.
It certainly makes sense. It's interesting to me that both
"Open Secrets" and "Carried Away" and, to some extent, "The
Albanian Virgin" have these mystical qualities. The two
other books of Munro's short stories that I've read
recently seemed to have none of that.
What did you think of "The Wilderness Station"?
Re: short stories, I was the one who said that they are
an art form in and of themselves and I agree
wholeheartedly with what you said about the difficulty of
creating a good one.
It's been a long time since I read Hemingway (the two you
mentioned plus THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA), but I liked
what I read. I've always liked that ability to say a great
deal with a few words. However, I've never read any of his
short stories;will definitely try them. Any particular
collection that you like the best? Regarding Hemingway
personally, I would sometimes rather not know about an
author on a personal level...just enjoy the art. Barb
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/24
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 10:06 AM
I was interested in your observations about Munro's
earlier stories, Barbara. This is the first heavy sampler
of her that I have indulged in. I take it that you would
not characterize the three that you mention as in any way
typical of her earlier work. Interesting. I must admit
that while these are not type of stories I would have
expected to enjoy, I am in fact enjoying them greatly in a
perverse sort of way. That is one of the things that is so
great about CR. One is tempted into reading things that
one otherwise would probably not.
As to EH, the COMPLETE SHORT STORIES is now commonly
available everywhere (Finca Vigia Edition). However, if
you can find a collection called "THE FIRST FORTY-NINE,"
you will have all you need. THE SNOWS OF KILIMANJARO, THE
KILLERS, THE BATTLER, THE THREE DAY BLOW, FIFTY GRAND, BIG
TWO-HEARTED RIVER, etc. Just jump around. Not a lot of
interesting female characters in those, however. There has
been some discussion in the past among the critics about
his inability to do a female character that is anything but
one-dimensional. But someday you really should try A
FAREWELL TO ARMS and THE SUN ALSO RISES. I don't see how a
male reader can fail to fall in love with Catherine in the
former, and as for Lady Bret in the latter--well, I think
she is a classic female character in American literature.
Right up there with Hester Prynne. Boy, would I love to
have a couple of beers with her! Since she is fictional, I
would settle for Ava Gardner. But since Ava is now
deceased, God rest her soul, I guess I will just have to
make do some way.
Steve 4/24/95 9:02AM CT
=============== Reply 2 of Note 1 =================
To: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Date: 04/24
From: SACQ68B LISA GUIDARINI Time: 4:38 PM
Gail:
I'm working on The Shipping News and Jane Eyre presently,
but I'm hoping to join the Dorian Gray discussion that I see
starting to heat up here. I read that last year and was
tremendously impressed with Wilde.
Shipping News is o.k. but a little of a chore at times.
Maybe it's because I've had to put it down so often to tend
to other things. Jane Eyre is great, although I think
Wuthering Heights is more masterful. However, far be it
from me to criticize the sisters Bronte!
I'm just about ready to start something new, though. I'm
scoping for others who may need a reading buddy/discussion
partner.
Lisa whose toddler has just awoken from sleep..
=============== Reply 3 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/24
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:30 PM
Open Secret readers--Was looking through these stories
again last night and re-read the summary on the flyleaf.
Always wonder who writes these--would Munro let something
go on there that was totally nonsensical? Anyway, it
describes the stories thusly: "Their power accumulates
layer by layer as time and reality shift, identities become
uncertain, truths surface." The part about time and
reality shifting seems pretty pertinent to our discussion.
No comments about the other stories (other than the three
we've talked about)? Barbara
=============== Reply 4 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/24
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 6:30 PM
Steve--Am putting the Hemingway collection on my list. I
agree that Hemingway has always struck me as having
difficulty creating female characters. However, Munro's
not so wonderful with male characters. I guess you just
have to accept an author's strengths. Barbara
=============== Reply 5 of Note 1 =================
To: SACQ68B LISA GUIDARINI Date: 04/24
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 8:05 PM
greetings LISA...do you tend to read PULITZER PRIZE winners
or for that matter any award winners...how do you select
your readings...i would like to recommend CORELLI'S
MANDOLIN...by louis de bernieres...MAGICAL...
OSCAR WILDE is my favorite..i was supposed to pick up the
ELLMAN bio today...but i was too busy working...
i am a WUTHERING HEIGHTS FAN...in girl scout camp we had
two factions...the JANE EYRE lovers and the WUTHERING
HEIGHTS contingency...late in the night when any of the JANE
EYRE fans went to the john...we all would murmur in the
dark...'HEATHCLIFF...' HEATHCLIFF....what fun!
gail..a passionate reader in foggy...cold..windy S.F.
=============== Reply 6 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/24
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 8:19 PM
Your discussion of the Munro stories has been fascinating to
me and I just had to interrupt SOPHIE'S WORLD to read THE
ALBANINAN VIRGIN. I am now in the second reading and being
a kind of linear person decided I wanted to try to keep
track of what happened when, so I am constructing a kind of
time line. In this second reading I am finding what I think
are clues that definitely mean that Charlotte and Lottar are
the same person, but which also link Clair and Charlotte. I
haven't finished the timeline yet (it's more time-consuming
than I thought it would be), but if anyone's interested in
seeing it after I'm done, let me know.
Sherry
=============== Reply 7 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/24
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 9:01 PM
Steve,
I don't think that you'll have any argument from the female
contingent on your interpretation of Open Secrets. Wow, page
references and everything! I was inspired to check the book
out of the library and reread the story. I think you've come
up with a good explanation of Marueen's vision of the hand
being burned, something that really perplexed me the first
go around.
I had forgotten how truly terrible the male characters are
in this story. I was interested in your observation about
the weak female characters in Hemingway. I read The Sun Also
Rises and A Farewell to Arms many years ago. They didn't
appeal to me much at the time, although maybe now that I am
into a 'mature' middle age I would respond to them
differently. I always think of Hemingway as a 'man's'
writer. In general, I think it's difficult for male writers
to write about strong female characters, and the converse is
also true, don't you think?
Ann
=============== Reply 8 of Note 1 =================
To: SACQ68B LISA GUIDARINI Date: 04/24
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 9:03 PM
Lisa et al,,
In regard to the nature vs nurture argument, I don't
remember being read to as a child, but my mother did
subscribe to a Catholic book club for me and I do remember
looking forward to reading about the saint of the month. I
always loved to read, my two brothers show little interest
in it, but my younger sister is an avid reader. Even as a
child, I didn't care that much for TV, so I am beginning to
think that there is lot to the born reader theory. For
people who love to read, the characters in books are every
bit as real as those in their everyday life, and generally
far more interesting. That can't be true for those
unaddicted.
Glad to hear that you are enjoying Jane Eyre, Lisa. I read
it twice as a teenager, and wondered what it would be like
from an adult perspective. I loaned my copy of Shipping News
to a friend and admonished her to keep reading past the slow
part in the beginning. However, as I recall, the book
jacket made it sound like this book was humorous, something
I did not find true at all. I personally found it very sad.
What did you think?
Ann
=============== Reply 9 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/24
From: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Time: 10:13 PM
Steve W., Esq.:
I agree with you completely about Hemingway. Whatever the
defects of his novels, his short stories, the best of them,
are just about as good as fiction (short) can be. I haven't
read THE BATTLER, but I will on your recommendation. My
favorite is THE BIG TWO-HEARTED RIVER, where no word seems
out of place, or replaceable. This story also benefits from
the total absence of other characters besides Nick Adams.
Description of place and process, with a microscopic
examination of Nick's feelings, carry the whole weight. And
your point about omission is borne out here, too. Nick
never mentions the outside world (except for a brief
memory of another fishing trip), but the very intensity of
his concentration on every detail of his camping and
fishing on this trip gives depth to the story. I re-read
this story every year or so. Now I'll give others of the
stories a look.
Truly and well, from Lookout Mountain,
Felix Miller.
=============== Reply 10 of Note 1 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 04/24
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:22 PM
Sherry--Glad to have you in on this. Yes, I would
definitely like to see the timeline...linking Clair and
Charlotte, eh? Interesting.
By the way, to all the OPEN SECRET readers who have read
Munro before, do you think these stories are a departure
from her previous writing? Barbara
=============== Reply 11 of Note 1 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/24
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:22 PM
Ann--We've had a couple of discussions here about females
who can write convincing male characters and males who can
do the same for female characters. I don't know if we used
the word "strong" or not. Steve and Dale introduced me to
Josephine Humphreys who wrote a really good male character
in THE FIREMAN'S FAIR. There's also a wonderful short
story called "The Woman Lit by Fireflies" by Jim Harrison
(a Hemingway sort of guy who I never expected to write a
convincing female character.) And, also there's been a lot
of discussion here about THE LONELY PASSION OF JUDITH
HEARNE by Brian Moore which I haven't read yet.
I actually never realized before how undeveloped the male
characters are in Munro's stories. Before, I think I was
just always so amazed at how well she "got" the female
characters. Barbara
=============== Reply 12 of Note 1 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/24
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 10:24 PM
Absolutely, Ann. Absolutely! I couldn't agree with you
more. In fact the exceptions prove the rule. When
Flaubert creates Madame Bovary, one NOTICES. When Bronte
creates Heathcliff, one NOTICES. Now let me think. You've
got me going. Anna Karenina. Daisy Miller. Rochester.
(I'm thinking of great, vivid characters created by writers
of one of the other genders. I know I can get some help
here.). . . . . and . . . . .wait a minute. . . . . .yes!.
. . . . . .Rhett Butler! If we had an evening and a
six-pack we could list them all easily.
And you know, you're may be right all along in another
respect. EH probably is a man's writer. I suppose
that a woman might very well conclude that Catherine in A
FAREWELL TO ARMS is a simpering idiot. But I'll tell you!
To a young man reading that book for the first time, she is
a dream come true. And therefore, of course she had to be
killed off in the end.
Steve 4/24/95 9:20PM CT
=============== Reply 13 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/24
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 10:51 PM
Well, on second thought--a twelve-pack--but certainly no
more than that.
Steve 4/24/95 9:49PM CT
=============== Reply 14 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/24
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 10:56 PM
No. No. No. I was right the first time. A six-pack
will do it. Two for me and four for you.
Steve 4/24/95 9:55PM CT
=============== Reply 15 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/25
From: DCTW04A MARTY PRIOLA Time: 2:07 AM
Barbara,
Minutinae from the book industry:
It's my understanding that the book's editor generally
writes the dust jacket copy.
Just thought you'd like to know.
--Marty in Memphis 4/24/95 6:45PM CT
=============== Reply 16 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/25
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 8:43 AM
Alice is not going to get off scott free here. I did
think that THE JACK RANDA HOTEL was by far the inferior
story so far. Just a matter of personal taste, I'm sure.
"Love--forgive
Love--forget
Love--forever
Hammers in the street."
That was a little thick. And a little too cute.
I am not quite finished with A WILDERNESS STATION. Will
get back to you. I will say now that I think this is one
of the better ones.
"In case she should not come to the Gaol but wander in
the streets, I ought to tell you that she is dark-haired
and tall, meagre in body, not comely but not ill-favoured
except having one eye that goes to the side."
I loved that, for example.
And Felix, I will anxiously await your opinion of THE
BATTLER. As I said, not the very best, but yet a very
poignant story for me for some reason.
["Poignant. Poignant. Isn't is fun to say that word,
children? Let's say it together. Poignant! POIGNANT!
Very well done. That WAS fun!" (For those of you not old
enough to remember, that was Miss Francis of DING DONG
SCHOOL. 8:00 a.m., 1954, CBS-TV, 225 lbs. with bun. I
always said the fun words with her. I'm not sure why she
popped into my head right then.)]
Steve 4/25/95 7:41AM CT
=============== Reply 17 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/25
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 10:47 AM
Barbara, I describe each section as blocks, usually they
are one time period and at first they switch times for each
block. But later on, this does not hold true and then the
timelines converge and it becomes harder to separate them.
I used Roman numerals to show the order in which things
happend, and block numbers the way they appeared in the
story. I took notes of things that interested me and seemed
to be clues to the connections.
II--1st block - first in the madhe-she is Canadian.
I -- 2nd block - pre-madhe, guide killed--she was
traveling on money she inherited when her parents died. Her
brother was angry--"who will look after you after
inheritance spent." On her ride back with her captors why do
we get this line "She fastened her eyes on the bundle that
was hanging from the saddle of the man ahead of her and
knocking against the horse's back. It was something about
the size of a cabbage, wrapped in a stiff rusty-looking
cloth." I think it was the guide's head. (But you have to
remember, I just read BLOOD MERIDIAN.)
IX-- 3rd block - Narrator "I". First mentions Charlotte. In
Canada. Starts off "I heard this story" suggesting the first
two blocks were the story she heard. Charlotte's "voice"
seems different from Lottar's. Older (because time has
passed) and more peevish. She was "extensive" and "lumpy"
which seems to indicate she was much heavier than Charlotte,
although time could do that (as we all know). Charlotte's
"story" was in 1920's; she wanted Jennifer Jones to play the
lead. When was she popular, anybody? (Later in the story,
the narrator says she opened the shop in 1964) So about 40
years has passed. So she would have grayed and heavied.
III - 4th block -- We're back in the madhe. Lottar sees
the Virgin.
IV -- 5th block -- cont. from 4th block. Women try to sell
her. (This is about a year after she arrives.) The
Franciscan makes her a Virgin. After he had shooed off the
women and dressed her in men's clothes and she had sworn
before 12 witnesses, he gave her a cigarette which "smelled
of his skin." I think this is a clear indication that she
loves him, or is beginning to.
X-- 6th block -Charlotte in the hospital, eating canned
peaches. Nurse recounted how she wanted to sell her
bracelets. Narrator recalls Gjurdhi trying to sell her
books. They were travel books of Albania (where did they
come from? I think maybe from Bishop's place.) from the
turn of the Century (60 years old). Recalls Charlotte in
the bookshop with her big black cloak giving her small
gifts. Gjurdhi has a big wooden crucifix.
V--7th block -- Lottar is now a Virgin and a shepherd. Has
been for 3 to 6 months, winter approaching. The men joke and
treat her like one of them. What do you make of the "joke"
about the wizard who made a bowl of water the sea and sailed
away? Does it have any meaning that the joke has elements of
Charlotte's life? A boat, sailing to America, etc.
VI--8th block -- cont. from 7th block. The Franciscan
realizes Lottar has no future as a Virgin in winter and
takes her out. She has made a life as a shepherd and each
small possession she leaves has meaning. Her life has been
reduced and enriched. They go to Skodra. Lottar asks if
they would have sold her in spite of her virgin oath; the
Franciscan replies, "Oh, yes. But to sell a woman is a way
to get some money. And they are so poor." This establishes
a link between Lottar & the Franciscan and Charlotte and
Gjurdhi's selling attempts. (more next reply)
=============== Reply 18 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/25
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 10:49 AM
(cont.)
XI- 9th block -Narrator having a flashback to when she
first opened bookshop (technically this could be first in
line after Lottar story ends). She describes the opening of
the shop and her initial disappointment at the lack of
customers. She describes her apartment. I find interesting
that she was afraid her "bed might leap out of the wall
sometime when I was eating my tinned soup or baked-potato
supper. It might kill me." After her disastrous experiences
with men I can imagine where a kind of fear might be running
her now. Even though she is proud of the changes she has
made in her life I think she is still very frightened. Also
very raw as she says in the next line "I felt as if I had
finally come out into the world in a new, true skin." I
think this is a major connection between her and Charlotte
"Lottar". Becoming an Albanian Virgin had been like coming
out in a new true skin. We don't know the narrator's name
yet. I like her explanation of why she bought a shop in
such a "nothing doing" town -- a refuge and a justification,
like someone else might have a cabin in the woods. Another
link between her and Charlotte - she had "inherited a little
money" and used it to buy the shop. Charlotte had used her
inheritance to travel. Later we find out that Claire's
parents had died, too, I assume this was the reason for the
inheritance.
VII - 10th block - Lottar and theF Entering Skodra. The
Franciscan is not so important here. Charlotte understands
how much she needs him. "She had not understood how much
she depended on the smell of his skin, the aggrieved
determination of his long strides, the flourish of his black
mustache." When a woman depends on the smell of a man's
skin, she is in love. He finds the Bishop's house. Lottar
is led to the consulate, cleaned up and put on a boat. Here
there is no division of blocks between division of times.
We go directly to Charlotte in the hospital telling the
story and she says "That part is not of interest." (Goes to
Part XV)
XII - 11th block - Continuation of narrator's flashback.
She has a flashback within her flashback. Now she is
telling us why she came to buy the bookshop. In the
narrator's tale we seem to be starting at a point in time
and taking backward steps. (In Charlotte's story we are
making a big circle.) Here we first find out her name,
Claire. Then the story of her affair with Nelson. Within
this description is her Mary Shelley thesis story about
Byron and the Romantic "mishmash" of couplings that proved
to be uncharacteristic of her own marriage, affair and
breakup. She was forced to wake up to reality. After she
left Nelson by getting on the train she tried to trick
herself into thinking that all men were alike, but she
realized "No. No. Nelson would still be Nelson to me. I had
not changed, with regard to his skin and his smell and his
forbidding eyes." Here we are with the smell and skin again
and also forbidding eyes.
XIII- 12th block -- Claire stops this flashback and starts
in on original flashback. She is furthering her history of
her bookshop, etc. The notary public knows Charlotte well
enough to call her "the Duchess". Does Claire's trying to
get the Notary Public together with the chartered accountant
remind you of the Cozzen's trying to get Charlotte together
with Dr. Lamb? Charlotte's cape was dark gray velvet with
fur trim--looked like a costume. Gjurdhi wore a cap "a
clergyman might wear in an English movie."
XIV - 13th block -- cont. from last block. The dinner at
Charlotte and Gjurdhi's. I think this line is interesting,
when Charlotte surprises Claire with her knowledge of Perkin
Warbeck, "The question I always think about Pretenders like
that is who do they think they are?" Is she pretending? Is
=============== Reply 19 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/25
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 10:51 AM
(cont).
her life a pretense now? Was her life a pretense as Lottar?
I think she is trying to live Lottar's life in Charlotte's
surroundings and that makes her think she is pretending. We
find out Claire's parents are dead, same as Charlotte's.
Claire is disappointed there is not more personal exchange
between them at dinner.
XV - 14th block - Short section -continuing flashback up
until the time of Charlotte in the bookstore being eyed by
the new clerk who says, "There's something I ought to tell
you about that woman." Now we are done with the flashback
and it puts us back up to p.96 where the clerk says "I don't
want to be any kind of character assassin, but..." This is
almost like a cut and paste.
XVI --15th block (this is where the two stories converge)
"That part is of no interest." continues directly from p.
109. We are in the hospital, Claire is thinking to herself
and wonders about the Notary Public who had been beaten and
robbed. I think that Gjurdhi did do it for the money --
remember the Franciscan's line about "they are good people,
but they are so poor"? Claire is worried Charlotte might
die. "She told a little more." (but that is not told just
yet)
XVII -16th block-- Claire at hospital and Charlotte gone,
nurse describing the throwing of money around. Their
vanishing made Claire loose her grip. Claire imagines what
life would have been like with Nelson. Then she does indeed
find Nelson outside her store and he "claims her". Then the
italicized part which seems to be the end of her story.
VIII - 17th block - (this is the "little more" that
Charlotte told at the end of XVI) Lottar leaving courtyard
of Bishop. They gave her a cloak (same one?) to conceal
ragged clothes. She called for the Franciscan. She saw him
half concealed in the tree, his face pale (he was in love,
too) "all the swarthiness drained away."
"Then it (the face?) was gone, taking the breath out of her
body (when she thought he was gone forever, it left her
breathless), as she knew too late (because she thought he
was gone forever).
VIII - cont. 18th block - "She called him and called him..."
This is the part I don't quite understand. Was she calling
to him in her mind? Was she praying to him, "Oh, please, oh,
please, come to me"? I think that must be the explanation.
"...and when the boat came into the harbor at Trieste he was
waiting on the dock."
My ideas -- We have three sets of couples, two obviously the
same and the other couple, Claire and Nelson, not the same,
but with similarities. Can you make any comment about these
similarities? Is it just the universality of the situation,
of women's experience?
=============== Reply 20 of Note 1 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 04/25
From: ERFN90B ELLEN JOHNSON Time: 10:13 PM
Hi Sherry,
Thank you for the timeline...it is a fascinating way
to organize your thoughts.
Charlotte and Gjurdi got to go on with life Part
II-could Nelson and Claire be headed in this same direction?
Perhaps Claire's deisre for Charlotte's return to health
and also for her disappointment with the lack of deeper
conversation at Charlotte's house stems from her desire to
have Charlotte tell her the next part of the story of her
(Claire's ) life. Claire already had a change of venue as
Charlotte and Gjurdi had....maybe her story will soon
parallel theirs.
What do you think?
Ellen
=============== Reply 21 of Note 1 =================
To: ERFN90B ELLEN JOHNSON Date: 04/26
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:10 AM
Dear Ellen,
You said that Charlotte and Gjurdhi had a life Part II, did
I think Nelson & Claire could be headed in that direction. I
think they did,
"For this really was Nelson, come to claim me. Or at least
to accost me, and see what would happen.
"We have been very happy.
I have often felt completely alone.
There is always in this life something to discover.
The days and the years have gone by in some sort of blur.
On the whole, I am satisfied."
That seems to be the rest of Claire's life in a nutshell,
and it seems to me that the implication is that Nelson is a
part of it.
I think her disappointment in not talking more deeply with
Charlotte was what she saw as a missing of opportunity. She
felt a deep connection with Charlotte, but didn't exactly
know why. I think WE know why, because we can see some of
the parallels and similarities in the two lives that Claire
was unable to see. She FEELS the connection and is
therefore disappointed that these feelings don't get
explored, but she never knows WHY.
Sherry
=============== Reply 22 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/26
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 6:58 PM
I've finished two more stories from Alice Munro's OPEN
SECRETS (just two more to go).
As different as the two are stylistically--"The Jack Randa
Hotel" and "A Wilderness Station"--they had something in
common, for me. Namely, I felt they were more
straightforward than some of the other stories, and that I
had somewhat of a "handle" on them--until I got to the last
page of each, and now I'm puzzled again.
At the end of "The Jack Randa Hotel," is the voice Gail
hears outside her door real or imagined ("such words can
become a sound of hammers in the street")? And in any event,
what does the elderly neighbor and his young lover have to
do with the story? For a while I wondered if it might be the
young man's voice she hears outside the door--agitated over
discovering the old man is gone--rather than her husband's,
but there's no real evidence of that.
And at the end of "Wilderness Station," after things seem
resolved, what is the point of Old Annie telling the bizarre
story about the girl in the Home who had a baby born out of
a boil, which they revived by putting into an oven? Is it
just senility, or is she affecting senility, or does it shed
light backward on the time when, younger, she told the
police at the jail she was pregnant? Was she, and was the
baby's father her husband's brother? I know I'm grabbing at
straws here, but...
On the other hand, I enjoyed the powerful atmospheres of
both stories. In "The Jack Randa Hotel" Munro captures
wonderfully, I think, the terrible love/hate ambivalence of
a romantic estrangement: "She shivers in the heat--most
fearful, most desirous, of seeing Will's utterly familiar
figure, that one rather small and jaunty, free-striding
package, of all that could pain or appease her, in the
world." Yep, that's it, all right.
Onward to "Carried Away" and "Vandals"...
Dale in Ala.
=============== Reply 23 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/26
From: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Time: 8:46 PM
Barbara and Steve,
Thanks for the reading suggestions, Barb. One of the things
I am enjoying most about CR is finding out what others have
read and enjoyed. And to think, I sometimes used to be at a
loss about what to read next!
Steve, how generous to offer me 4 beers to your 2. According
to my admittedly arbitrary criteria, only a male can judge
whether a female author has written a convincing male
character, and vice versa, of course. So I was interested in
your mention of Heathcliff and Rochester. These two
characters are kind of romantic ideals for teenage girls,
and I always thought of Wuthering Height and Jane Eyre as
'woman's ' books. What do you think? Are there really men
out there like that, and , if so, where can we find them?
I nominate Hana in Ondaatje's The English Patient as a
wonderful female character in a book written by a man.
Ann
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 04/26
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 11:00 PM
Sherry--I am so glad that I proposed this book for the
group. Would never have gotten this far with my
understanding of it by myself. Really like your method of
breaking it down.
I was stopped by that bundle hanging from the saddle of
the man in front of Lottar the second or third time I read
the story and hadn't even noticed it before. I thought it
was the guide's head as well, especially noting the
Franciscan's description of them being "in blood" with him.
By the way, do you remember when Lottar said in response to
the explanation of their revenge that her guide did not
seem so ready to die for the honor of his family, since he
had fled to Crna Gora. Then the Franciscan said, "But it
didn't make any difference, did it? Even if he had gone to
American, it would not have made any difference. Do you
think that is significant?
Jennifer Jones was popular in the 40's and 50's, I think.
By the way, I loved the concept of the Virgin. Take
the possibility of sex away and the women suddenly have
an equal or near-equal relationship with men.
I couldn't figure out the concept of the "joke"
about sailing to American either, other than that it sort
of established that they wanted to go to
America--therefore it first gives you the idea that the
Franciscan might be amenable to the trip, given the love of
Lottar, etc.
I also didn't connect the cloak that they covered Lottar
with as she left and the one that Charlotte wears. One
connection I wondered about between Charlotte/Lottar and
Claire was the Albanian Virgin title...that in going to
British Columbia and starting the bookstore, Claire was
sort of doing what Lottar did when she became a Virgin and
a shepherd...removing herself from her relationships,
exposing herself to some deprivation (the thin, red soup,
constant cold, etc.) while she sorted out where she was
going next. Lottar realized she was in love with the
Franciscan after that period and Claire realized the same
with Nelson?? The let-down here is that the visualization
and even italicized description of their future
relationship doesn't sound terribly fulfilling. And, the
relationship between Charlotte and Gjurdi still seemed
somewhat electric (remember Claire's sense of sexuality as
she was leaving the dinner?) even in their older years.
However, few of Munro's long-term relationships sound
terribly fulfilling. Barbara
=============== Reply 2 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/26
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 11:00 PM
Yes, I agree, Steve. "The Jack Randa Hotel" was my least
favorite as well. I got rather impatient with them all.
I love "A Wilderness Station" though. Like the slant she
brings to history. One of my favorite little pieces of
that story was at the end when "Old Annie" tells the girl
that "a girl in the Home had a baby out of a big boil that
burst on her stomach, and it was the size of a rat and had
no life in it, but they put it in the oven and it puffed up
to the right size and baked to a good color and started to
kick its legs." When the girl tells her that it wasn't
possible, that it must have been a dream, she says, " Maybe
so, I did used to have the terriblest dreams."
What an understatement given her childhood and young
adult years!! And, can't you just hear an old person
repeating this horrible story that was probably told her by
the nuns and realizing belatedly how impossible it was.
And I loved the contrast between the independent girl
narrating the story at the end and Annie Herron. Barb
=============== Reply 3 of Note 1 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/26
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 11:06 PM
Well, it WAS kind of generous of me, wasn't it, Ann?
You are a good sport. The fact is that Heathcliff and
Rochester come to mind immediately when the subject of
cross-gender characterization comes up. These are NOT
strictly ladies' books, I assure you. I must admit,
though, I am a bit disappointed that you omitted any
reference to RHETT in your note, however! Haven't you
read that book?
Steve 4/26/95 10:03PM CT
=============== Reply 4 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/26
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 11:28 PM
This is an absolute delight! I log on to send my note
to Annie and I find these two notes simultaneously from you
and Dale, Barb. I was jarred--JARRED-- to read your
quotation of this passage. And Dale noticed it big time,
too! I still don't know what to make of it. It just kind
of comes out of the blue!
Actually, the thing that impressed me most about this
story is the epistolary form early on. These letters sound
so authentic. She is able to mimic another's voice so
believably. Wonderful stuff.
But I am so interested to read your response to Dale's
note. I really am stunned by the passage that you quote.
What do you make of it, Barb? Is it necessary that I
experience child birth before I can understand whereof we
speak here? If so, I guess I am ******! Not gonna happen.
Steve 4/26/95 10:26PM CT
=============== Reply 5 of Note 1 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 04/26
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 11:40 PM
Sherry, I want you to know that I printed off your
three-part note such that I could study it in my easy chair
last night. It was as good a piece of CLOSE reading as I
have seen in recent times. I VERY much enjoyed it. Thank
you. Anyone who understands the importance of the sense of
smell as much as you do is a pal of mine forever. The most
important of the six senses in my humble opinion, and the
most neglected in literature!
Stick around, please!
Steve 4/26/95 10:37PM CT
=============== Reply 6 of Note 1 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/26
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 11:55 PM
Hmmmm....Dale, just uploaded my most recent note re:
Munro's stories and got your note back and you've got me
thinking again...maybe the pregnancy story is a bigger deal
than I thought. And I'm also wondering about the points
you raised about the Jack Randa Hotel story. It's too late
(there's that work getting in the way of my reading
again....) to do it now, but I'm definitely off to reread
these two and get back with you. Just when I thought these
were two relatively simple ones too.... Barbara
=============== Reply 7 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/27
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:21 AM
Steve,
I am very glad you appreciated my endeavor. I was worried
that I had clogged up too much of the board. Working
through it chronologically had unforeseen advantages. It
made me really try to read between the lines. (Forgive me
if this sounds choppy; I cut my right pointer finger while
foraging in the knife drawer & I am reduced to hunt & peck
which is most uncomfortable). I discovered that so much of
the story was conveyed on a subliminal level. I look
forward to reading her other stories, but I need to finish
SOPHIE'S WORLD first since I see Allen has started posting
on that. Sherry
=============== Reply 8 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/27
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 10:03 AM
Barbara,
I'm glad you suggested this book, too. It's impossible (at
least on the boards) to examine a novel as in depth as you
can examine a really well-crafted short story. I think
Munro (as someone has mentioned already) is a master at
"leaving out". We perceive the meaning of things
intuitively, or more accurately, perceive that there IS a
meaning and have to push ourselves to find what that meaning
is. A perfect example is the "cabbage"-like bundle. I think
most people wouldn't know immediately what that is, but
somehow it's presence gives us a sense dis-ease or violence.
It works on our unconscious to give a particular aura to the
setting.
I think that the Franciscan saying "it didn't matter" about
going to America to escape the blood feud was an indication
of how "center-of-the-universe" the people of the madhe
were. These blood feuds obviously were a very important
binding force, more important than Christianity (remember
the crosses with thin people and rifles?). So their belief
in these feuds had to be strong enough for them to think
that they would follow their enemies to the end of the
earth, even though we know that this would probably not
happen. I think even the Franciscan, who was not wholly of
the madhe had this "central" feeling about this culture.
I think you're right about the connection between Claire and
Charlotte/Lottar BOTH becoming Virgins. I hadn't
articulated the thought clearly, but I think I FELT it. I
remember reading about the thin broth lasting an hour and
having a small gleam of recognition come to me, but only
dimly.
The italicized description of the rest of Claire's life
sounds more fulfilling to me than non fulfilling. It sounds
like the honest description of a real life. I think most of
us, if we've had long-term relationships (& I have) know
that sometimes you feel alone and sometimes you don't. I
think that is the dynamic in a lot of relationships. But I
know what you mean as compared with the electricity of the
Charlotte/Gjurdhi relationship. If you think about it, that
relationship HAD to be EXTREMELY electric to have been able
to come together. Think about the cost to both sides; the
Franciscan leaving his entire culture and the position of
leadership he had in the madhe, and Charlotte giving up her
culture and her history as well and both of them living in
poverty -- just so they could be together. They made their
own culture of two, and there had to be enormous binding
forces for them to stay together for so long.
Sherry
=============== Reply 9 of Note 1 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 04/27
From: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Time: 11:45 PM
Oh, dear, doesn't anyone read mystery and suspense fiction?
To me there would be nothing subliminal about it - a
suspicious cabbage like bundle (especially if dripping or
seeping) IS a head, and perhaps a few other small body parts
as well.
Cathy
=============== Reply 10 of Note 1 =================
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 04/28
From: CUFZ01B SARAH HART Time: 8:01 PM
Sherry,
I really have enjoyed your dissection of this story. I
am tempted to reread it, but am feeling very behind as I
see someone has mentioned that Allen has begun posting on
'Sophie's World,' and I have not yet finished it. I'm also
about two stories behind the rest of you in 'Open Secrets,'
which has me feeling as if I'd better hurry up if I want to
add anything meaningful to the discussion!. I
especially like your thoughts about Munro leaving things
out; I think that is an apt phrase for this storyteller.
In parallel to what Charlotte and the Fransciscan gave up,
although not on the same level, Claire and Nelson also gave
something up...and she did it first, while he followed her,
just like Charlotte and G.
Sarah 4/28/95 10:12AM MT
=============== Reply 11 of Note 1 =================
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 04/28
From: CUFZ01B SARAH HART Time: 8:01 PM
Dale,
I jumped ahead and read 'A Wilderness Station,' as I
didn't see much discussion about 'A Real Life' and 'Open
Secrets.' I reveled in Munro's ability to form a story and
characters using so many different characters' voices: the
brother writing to the Home, the director's answer, the
voice of the brother, the minister, and the Gaol director,
all before we hear anything from Annie herself. As far as
the boil pregnancy, the exact wording there is "I recall
her telling me another time that..." so it's not that Annie
told the story then, but that the old woman's reminiscences
took that turn there. I still agree there's some
significance, but can't put my finger on it...except that
she prefaced it by saying that old people 'back then' were
going around with some strange ideas. Mostly, I think the
use of the ending storyteller is much the same as the
beginning ones served; to tell Annie's story with as little
input from Annie as possible. This certainly makes sense
with what we know of her life, as most decisions or events
occurred in her life without her helping make them...her
marriage, her complicity in her husband's death, her
fleeing from her brother-in-law...
Princess Sarah 4/28/95 10:20AM MT
=============== Reply 1 of Note 1 =================
To: CUFZ01B SARAH HART Date: 04/29
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 12:17 PM
Sarah, would you mind taking another look at the Annie's
discussion of her dreams at pp. 214-15? The grotesque
dream at the end simply harkens back to her other dreams,
I think. There certainly is significance in her statement,
"If they think I am crazy and I know the difference I am
safe." But she obviously did have trouble distinguishing
her dreams from reality.
And then there is the yelling: "And I would like for
that yelling to stop." On page 217 we find: "She said
that a girl in the next bed screamed and screamed, and that
was why she--Annie--ran away and lived the the woods. She
said the girl had been beaten for letting the fire go out."
I am not completely sure about all this, but there
certainly seems to be great many allusions in this story to
physical abuse of women. Annie herself was sensitive about
people seeing the black and blue marks on her. Perhaps
this story is principally a portrayal of the brutality
inflicted upon frontier women by the environment and by the
men and the impact of all this upon their sanity. It is
interesting to see that Annie survived it all in the end
better than George. So the story is also a testament to
the endurance of women. That's the best I can do with it.
I was also quite impressed, as were you, with Munro's
ability to invent various and very distinctive voices in
her composition of the different letters set out at the
beginning of the story.
Steve 4/29/95 11:15AM CT
=============== Reply 2 of Note 1 =================
To: TQWX67A ANN DAVEY Date: 04/29
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 12:22 PM
Oh, ye of little faith, Ann!
=============== Reply 3 of Note 1 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 04/30
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 4:19 PM
Theresa, this note of yours has been hanging around on
my BB Note Manager for nearly a month, now with 16
replies, mostly unrelated. When Ann recently mentioned
THE ENGLISH PATIENT in an offhand manner, I started to feel
like the only one who had not read it. On an impulse I
raced to the library at 4:40 p.m. yesterday, twenty minutes
before closing, and scored the book as last call was being
announced. About thirty minutes ago I closed the book
after reading the last line about Kirpal catching his
daughter's dropped fork an inch off the floor. I am
speechless--well, nearly so. Spectacular! An absolutely
spectacular book!
Steve 4/30/95 3:18PM CT
=============== Reply 4 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/30
From: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Time: 5:35 PM
Steve,
I read THE BATTLER, which, as it turns out, I dimly
remember reading long ago (all those years, piling on). I
agree with the "poignant", although I must defend Miss
Frances-surely she didn't weigh nearly as much as I do-even
with her bun. In the story, I especially like the ironic
manner of the black man who so capably looks after Ad, the
broken-down boxer. His elaborate courtesy in addressing the
two whites as "Mister" even as he demonstrates his ability
to handle both of them with such gentle skill.
The relationship between Ad and Bugs reminds me strongly of
Lenny and George in OF MICE AND MEN. A sense of
responsibility for someone else, affectionate without
sentimentality, in circumstances which would justify rather
more self-interest. Yeah, this is a good one. And in
digging it out, I found my self going on to read several
more Hemingway stories. A bonus, always.
Regards from Tennessee,
Felix Miller
=============== Reply 5 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/30
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 7:14 PM
Dale, Steve, Sarah, etc.--Finally had time to reread "A
Wilderness Station" today and was glad I did. Am not sure
I figured anything out, but noted things that I just read
through the first time. I think my main conclusion from
reading OPEN SECRETS is that you should never read a Munro
story only once. Am wondering if those earlier stories
were really as straightforward as I thought.
My overriding impression reading this story both times
though is how well it conveys the bleakness and sparseness
of those frontier times. We've romanticized this so
thoroughly in our culture that the spirit conveyed here has
been lost. My dad was born in 1907 to a very poor farm
family in Nebraska who came there from Kentucky to settle.
He always felt that his mother died from overwork and the
stories that he told me about his early life have the same
feel that this story does. So, that is what I took, and
probably still take, to be the main purpose of the story.
And, Steve, I think Munro is probably putting extra focus
on how vulnerable women were in particular in this
environment. However, the older brother sounded incredibly
mean to both Annie and the younger brother. But, again, I
remember my dad telling me about men like that where he
grew up.
Also, I sort of felt a connection between the minister
from Carstairs who wrote to warn them that Annie might be
coming to the gaol and Annie. Both of them were brought
there with expectations of better things. Annie was
shocked at the desolation and the minister had been
promised a house or church. The minister didn't survive in
the end; Annie did, but at what a price!
Re: the yelling, Steve--the original yelling was from the
woman in the next cell at the gaol who had been attacked by
two men. Then on pg. 217, the narrator says that she often
mixed up the Home and the gaol and Annie tells about a girl
who was beaten for letting the fire go out, which would
seem to be at the Home. And said that is why she ran away
and lived in the woods--I took that to mean that is why she
decided to marry the older brother and go live in the
wilderness. What irony! Leaving the home because of
another girl's beating and falling into an even worse
situation.
And, the pregnancy story, I again just took as evidence
of her incredible ignorance and misinformation. But, I
suppose that it could've been connected with some horrible
guilt about things going farther with the brother than she
said. I just thought the the final detailed letter that
she sent to her friend was the truth. And, by telling it,
she purged herself enough of the whole situation to leave
the gaol, work for Mullen and move on. By the way, I
didn't catch on my first read that she had gone to work for
the man who wrote the letters about her from the gaol.
Also, chuckled again about the descriptions of female
insanities and what caused them ("submission to her husband
not complete" and "the sort of reading that is available to
females") on pages 203 and 205. Certainly glad I wasn't a
woman in those times....
Haven't been able to read "The Jack Randa Hotel" again;
it's been very busy around here. Barbara
=============== Reply 6 of Note 1 =================
To: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Date: 04/30
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 8:00 PM
Likewise, Felix, you sent me back to revisit the Big
Two-Hearted River, Parts I and II.
The comparison to George and Lenny was quite apt, I
thought.
Steve 4/30/95 5:34PM CT
=============== Reply 7 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/30
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 8:34 PM
Hi Barbara, et al. I put off reading your posts about Munro
until I could read the stories myself. I'm glad I did, and
have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts. My impression is
that the girl who was beaten for letting the fire go out was
the bride herself - beaten by the dead husband - and that
she ran off to the wilderness in a sense after he died - by
remaining alone in the empty house, and later ending up in a
version of an insane asylum (surely a type of wilderness).
She had wished him dead so many times, when it finally
happened she assumed she must share in the guilt. I agree
that all of these stories deserve a re-reading - except the
Jack Randa Hotel, which I thought was rather silly and
didn't really belong in the book at all.
Has anyone noticed how many decapitations and other head
injuries there are here? From the poor fellow at the piano
factory, to Albert nearly brained by the mad-woman on his
delivery route, to the Albanian guide and the cabbage in a
bag, to the cruel husband struck by his brother on the head
with an ax.
Theresa
=============== Reply 8 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/30
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 8:38 PM
Hi Steve. I know - I hate seeing that note pop up so much -
I never like the way what I've written appears on the screen
here (kind of like having to watch videotapes of oneself at
mock trials at school - excruciating). I am still thinking
about the English Patient - in addition to interrupting my
life it has lingered on my mind. I just purchased a used
Penguin Herodotus Histories. I was intrigued by the quotes
Ondaatje has excerpted in the book. I've just skimmed it -
it's very "readable." If anyone here has read this, I'd be
interested to discuss. I'm supposed to be preparing for
finals though, so may not get to read more for a while.
Theresa
=============== Reply 1 of Note 1 =================
To: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Date: 05/02
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 2:15 AM
Hi Cathy. From what little I've been able to read so far, I
don't think he took everything as the literal truth so much
as saw "history" as a great story - he starts right off
giving both sides' versions of events equal airing as far as
the stealing of Io, etc. - an early historical relativist,
so to speak (he also thought they shouldn't have made such a
big deal about women being kidnapped by the enemies, as
everyone knows they only get taken when they want to - cf.
one of our esteemed elected leaders recent interesting
theories on the conditions necessary for baby production...)
Theresa
=============== Reply 2 of Note 1 =================
To: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Date: 05/02
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 2:32 AM
I've really enjoyed all the different takes on the Albanian
Virgen. Mine's a little different, as usual. (And I want
to chastise the guys out there for not immediately realizing
that Lottar is a putative Charlotte. You were pulling our
legs, right?)
Anyway, I think there were some few grains of truth in the
tale but, based on Charlotte's self-admitted perverseness,
she made the story up to send up the hearer. It has all the
elements of a romance story, but grunge-style, with bugs and
dirt. A young woman finds herself in an exotic locale, at
the mercy of the locals. She meets up with a "boss man"
type, who is of the people, yet superior to them in many
ways. Whether he is friend or foe is unclear. For unknown
reasons boss-man saves the young woman from sexual peril.
She is separated from him, and realizes too late that it is
TRUE LOVE. But it's not too late - he comes to her at the
last minute. How beautiful, hmmm....
So, here Charlotte and Ghjurdi (I wonder how Xoti, (leader)
as Lottar calls the Franciscan is pronounced? I'll bet it's
close to Ghjurdi (sp?) have a real life - rather mundane and
limited, but they seem happy enough, even if they did not in
truth spring out of a romantic fantasy.
I agree with the comparisons to the narrator's life (can't
recall her name). She has stepped out of a romance story
situation (marriage to an older man, a DOCTOR for heaven's
sake) into what turns out to be her real life. And as we
see at the end, it was apparently the right choice, despite
the very unromantic day to day details.
Interesting that her lover's discarded wife is a nurse - as
is often the heroine in a romance. The narrator is closer
to the bold and wild woman who threatens to steal away the
boss-man, but always loses out in the end. But here she got
him, or some lesser version of him at least. And the poor
nurse seems to have conveniently disappeared from the
scene.
(In case you're wondering - about a three month period in
seventh grade - I read many romance stories, got over them
quickly. Although, in those days, the most excitement was a
passionate kiss. From what I hear, they're a lot racier now
- who knows, I might have kept reading.....).
Theresa
Berkeley, CA is full of elderly, rather odd couples just
like Charlotte and Ghurdi. Really - they're all over the
place.
=============== Reply 3 of Note 1 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 05/03
From: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Time: 0:02 AM
Here, have pity on the remnants of the sixties! They made
history being odd. You can always tell a person who came of
age in that era - even in Nashville, with a strict college
(I will NOT call it a university) in the background, some of
the aura sticks.
Cathy
=============== Reply 4 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 05/03
From: CUFZ01B SARAH HART Time: 1:09 PM
Steve, I haven't been ignoring your request...life is
interrupting my reading and posting right now, but I should
be back soon...don't give up on me.
Sarah 5/2/95 11:12AM MT
=============== Reply 1 of Note 1 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 04/30
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 4:19 PM
Theresa, this note of yours has been hanging around on
my BB Note Manager for nearly a month, now with 16
replies, mostly unrelated. When Ann recently mentioned
THE ENGLISH PATIENT in an offhand manner, I started to feel
like the only one who had not read it. On an impulse I
raced to the library at 4:40 p.m. yesterday, twenty minutes
before closing, and scored the book as last call was being
announced. About thirty minutes ago I closed the book
after reading the last line about Kirpal catching his
daughter's dropped fork an inch off the floor. I am
speechless--well, nearly so. Spectacular! An absolutely
spectacular book!
Steve 4/30/95 3:18PM CT
=============== Reply 2 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/30
From: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Time: 5:35 PM
Steve,
I read THE BATTLER, which, as it turns out, I dimly
remember reading long ago (all those years, piling on). I
agree with the "poignant", although I must defend Miss
Frances-surely she didn't weigh nearly as much as I do-even
with her bun. In the story, I especially like the ironic
manner of the black man who so capably looks after Ad, the
broken-down boxer. His elaborate courtesy in addressing the
two whites as "Mister" even as he demonstrates his ability
to handle both of them with such gentle skill.
The relationship between Ad and Bugs reminds me strongly of
Lenny and George in OF MICE AND MEN. A sense of
responsibility for someone else, affectionate without
sentimentality, in circumstances which would justify rather
more self-interest. Yeah, this is a good one. And in
digging it out, I found my self going on to read several
more Hemingway stories. A bonus, always.
Regards from Tennessee,
Felix Miller
=============== Reply 3 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/30
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 7:14 PM
Dale, Steve, Sarah, etc.--Finally had time to reread "A
Wilderness Station" today and was glad I did. Am not sure
I figured anything out, but noted things that I just read
through the first time. I think my main conclusion from
reading OPEN SECRETS is that you should never read a Munro
story only once. Am wondering if those earlier stories
were really as straightforward as I thought.
My overriding impression reading this story both times
though is how well it conveys the bleakness and sparseness
of those frontier times. We've romanticized this so
thoroughly in our culture that the spirit conveyed here has
been lost. My dad was born in 1907 to a very poor farm
family in Nebraska who came there from Kentucky to settle.
He always felt that his mother died from overwork and the
stories that he told me about his early life have the same
feel that this story does. So, that is what I took, and
probably still take, to be the main purpose of the story.
And, Steve, I think Munro is probably putting extra focus
on how vulnerable women were in particular in this
environment. However, the older brother sounded incredibly
mean to both Annie and the younger brother. But, again, I
remember my dad telling me about men like that where he
grew up.
Also, I sort of felt a connection between the minister
from Carstairs who wrote to warn them that Annie might be
coming to the gaol and Annie. Both of them were brought
there with expectations of better things. Annie was
shocked at the desolation and the minister had been
promised a house or church. The minister didn't survive in
the end; Annie did, but at what a price!
Re: the yelling, Steve--the original yelling was from the
woman in the next cell at the gaol who had been attacked by
two men. Then on pg. 217, the narrator says that she often
mixed up the Home and the gaol and Annie tells about a girl
who was beaten for letting the fire go out, which would
seem to be at the Home. And said that is why she ran away
and lived in the woods--I took that to mean that is why she
decided to marry the older brother and go live in the
wilderness. What irony! Leaving the home because of
another girl's beating and falling into an even worse
situation.
And, the pregnancy story, I again just took as evidence
of her incredible ignorance and misinformation. But, I
suppose that it could've been connected with some horrible
guilt about things going farther with the brother than she
said. I just thought the the final detailed letter that
she sent to her friend was the truth. And, by telling it,
she purged herself enough of the whole situation to leave
the gaol, work for Mullen and move on. By the way, I
didn't catch on my first read that she had gone to work for
the man who wrote the letters about her from the gaol.
Also, chuckled again about the descriptions of female
insanities and what caused them ("submission to her husband
not complete" and "the sort of reading that is available to
females") on pages 203 and 205. Certainly glad I wasn't a
woman in those times....
Haven't been able to read "The Jack Randa Hotel" again;
it's been very busy around here. Barbara
=============== Reply 4 of Note 1 =================
To: VMMN97A FELIX MILLER Date: 04/30
From: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Time: 8:00 PM
Likewise, Felix, you sent me back to revisit the Big
Two-Hearted River, Parts I and II.
The comparison to George and Lenny was quite apt, I
thought.
Steve 4/30/95 5:34PM CT
=============== Reply 5 of Note 1 =================
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 04/30
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 8:34 PM
Hi Barbara, et al. I put off reading your posts about Munro
until I could read the stories myself. I'm glad I did, and
have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts. My impression is
that the girl who was beaten for letting the fire go out was
the bride herself - beaten by the dead husband - and that
she ran off to the wilderness in a sense after he died - by
remaining alone in the empty house, and later ending up in a
version of an insane asylum (surely a type of wilderness).
She had wished him dead so many times, when it finally
happened she assumed she must share in the guilt. I agree
that all of these stories deserve a re-reading - except the
Jack Randa Hotel, which I thought was rather silly and
didn't really belong in the book at all.
Has anyone noticed how many decapitations and other head
injuries there are here? From the poor fellow at the piano
factory, to Albert nearly brained by the mad-woman on his
delivery route, to the Albanian guide and the cabbage in a
bag, to the cruel husband struck by his brother on the head
with an ax.
Theresa
=============== Reply 6 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 04/30
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 8:38 PM
Hi Steve. I know - I hate seeing that note pop up so much -
I never like the way what I've written appears on the screen
here (kind of like having to watch videotapes of oneself at
mock trials at school - excruciating). I am still thinking
about the English Patient - in addition to interrupting my
life it has lingered on my mind. I just purchased a used
Penguin Herodotus Histories. I was intrigued by the quotes
Ondaatje has excerpted in the book. I've just skimmed it -
it's very "readable." If anyone here has read this, I'd be
interested to discuss. I'm supposed to be preparing for
finals though, so may not get to read more for a while.
Theresa
=============== Reply 7 of Note 1 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 05/01
From: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Time: 0:39 AM
I am somewhat familiar with Herodotus, though I haven't read
him myself. He was a chatty type historian, apparently,
gathering tales from everywhere and accepting absolutely
anything as the literal truth. Aside from that, the general
verdict is that he is a lot of fun to read and seemed to
enjoy what he was doing. Also, he covered a wider scope of
the ancient world than fellow historian Thucydides, who
concentrated on the Peloponnesian Wars. Thucydides was more
accurate but apparently somewhat less readable.
Cathy
=============== Reply 8 of Note 1 =================
To: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Date: 05/02
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 2:15 AM
Hi Cathy. From what little I've been able to read so far, I
don't think he took everything as the literal truth so much
as saw "history" as a great story - he starts right off
giving both sides' versions of events equal airing as far as
the stealing of Io, etc. - an early historical relativist,
so to speak (he also thought they shouldn't have made such a
big deal about women being kidnapped by the enemies, as
everyone knows they only get taken when they want to - cf.
one of our esteemed elected leaders recent interesting
theories on the conditions necessary for baby production...)
Theresa
=============== Reply 9 of Note 1 =================
To: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Date: 05/02
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 2:32 AM
I've really enjoyed all the different takes on the Albanian
Virgen. Mine's a little different, as usual. (And I want
to chastise the guys out there for not immediately realizing
that Lottar is a putative Charlotte. You were pulling our
legs, right?)
Anyway, I think there were some few grains of truth in the
tale but, based on Charlotte's self-admitted perverseness,
she made the story up to send up the hearer. It has all the
elements of a romance story, but grunge-style, with bugs and
dirt. A young woman finds herself in an exotic locale, at
the mercy of the locals. She meets up with a "boss man"
type, who is of the people, yet superior to them in many
ways. Whether he is friend or foe is unclear. For unknown
reasons boss-man saves the young woman from sexual peril.
She is separated from him, and realizes too late that it is
TRUE LOVE. But it's not too late - he comes to her at the
last minute. How beautiful, hmmm....
So, here Charlotte and Ghjurdi (I wonder how Xoti, (leader)
as Lottar calls the Franciscan is pronounced? I'll bet it's
close to Ghjurdi (sp?) have a real life - rather mundane and
limited, but they seem happy enough, even if they did not in
truth spring out of a romantic fantasy.
I agree with the comparisons to the narrator's life (can't
recall her name). She has stepped out of a romance story
situation (marriage to an older man, a DOCTOR for heaven's
sake) into what turns out to be her real life. And as we
see at the end, it was apparently the right choice, despite
the very unromantic day to day details.
Interesting that her lover's discarded wife is a nurse - as
is often the heroine in a romance. The narrator is closer
to the bold and wild woman who threatens to steal away the
boss-man, but always loses out in the end. But here she got
him, or some lesser version of him at least. And the poor
nurse seems to have conveniently disappeared from the
scene.
(In case you're wondering - about a three month period in
seventh grade - I read many romance stories, got over them
quickly. Although, in those days, the most excitement was a
passionate kiss. From what I hear, they're a lot racier now
- who knows, I might have kept reading.....).
Theresa
Berkeley, CA is full of elderly, rather odd couples just
like Charlotte and Ghurdi. Really - they're all over the
place.
=============== Reply 10 of Note 1 =================
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 05/03
From: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Time: 0:02 AM
Here, have pity on the remnants of the sixties! They made
history being odd. You can always tell a person who came of
age in that era - even in Nashville, with a strict college
(I will NOT call it a university) in the background, some of
the aura sticks.
Cathy
=============== Reply 11 of Note 1 =================
To: SEZG73A STEVE WARBASSE Date: 05/03
From: CUFZ01B SARAH HART Time: 1:09 PM
Steve, I haven't been ignoring your request...life is
interrupting my reading and posting right now, but I should
be back soon...don't give up on me.
Sarah 5/2/95 11:12AM MT
|
Alice Munro
That being said, I
truly enjoyed Munro's spectacular flow through this great
story. There is nothing like being thrown right into the
action, and being carried through the Maltsia e madhe
wrapped in a wool blanket and bathed in raki, then spending
a few years with the Ghegs, certainly qualifies for an
abrupt opening.
Sarah Hart
I'll tell you! What a black, nightmarish, troubling
story this is! What a collection of male characters!
Gives me the shivers!
Steve Warbasse
I enjoyed the powerful atmospheres of
both stories. In "The Jack Randa Hotel" Munro captures
wonderfully, I think, the terrible love/hate ambivalence of
a romantic estrangement: "She shivers in the heat--most
fearful, most desirous, of seeing Will's utterly familiar
figure, that one rather small and jaunty, free-striding
package, of all that could pain or appease her, in the
world." Yep, that's it, all right.
Dale in Ala.
|
