Amazon.com:
Called "the first and greatest of English detective novels" by T.S.Eliot, The Moonstone is a masterpiece of suspense. A fabulous yellow diamond becomes the dangerous inheritance of Rachel Verinder. Outside her Yorkshire country house watch the Hindu priests who have waited for many years to reclaim their ancient talisman, looted from the holy city of Somnauth. When the Moonstone disappears the case looks simple, but in mid-Victorian England no one is what they seem, and nothing can be taken for granted.
Witnesses, suspects, and detectives each narrate the story in turn. The bemused butler, the love-stricken housemaid, the enigmatic detective Sergeant Cuff, the drug-addicted scientist--each speculate on the mystery as Collins weaves their narratives together. The Moonstone transcends the genre of detective novel or murder mystery, though."
Topic:
The next discussion: Moonstone, January 2002 (24 of 24),
Read 3 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:03 PM
I found these tidbits in the intro to my edition of THE
MOONSTONE. The author of the intro is Frederick R. Karl. I
don't have a clue as to who he is, but he helped me clarify
why Collins is considered to be a Victorian sensational
novelist, as well as a writer of detective fiction.
Collins suffered from gout. He used laudanum to ease the
pain, much of which was in his eyes, "often drinking it in
wine glasses." Ezra Jennings seems to parallel Collins'
own experiences.
Eventually, the friendship between Dickens and Collins
cooled, but I'm not sure why. After MOONSTONE was
published, Dickens wrote that it was "...wearisome
beyond endurance," that "there is a vein of obstinate
conceit in it that makes enemies of readers."
(Oh, goody - an interesting discussion point.)
However, conjecture has it that Dickens was heavily
influenced by Collins when he wrote THE MYSTERY OF
EDWIN DROOD, "a kind of crime-detective novel with
Indian elements running throughout it."
Conan Doyle also used Indian elements.
It is important to note that the British were still dealing
with the effects of the Indian Sepoy Mutiny of 1857 at the
time the novel was written in 1868.
The intro further points out the "dual" nature of Godfrey
Ablewhite. "That dual, split, or doubling type of character
would become quite fashionable in the latter third of the
century: we need only recall Stevenson's JEKYLL AND
HYDE or Wilde's DORIAN GRAY.
Critics have noted that "Collins' later type of detective
fiction would be indebted to Gothic elements of sensation,
mystery, fantastical presences. One aspect of Gothic is
that blending of the real and the fantastic." "Collins' type
of detective novel depended far more on melodramatic
effects than did the kind developed by Conan Doyle." T. S.
Eliot said that English detective fiction, deriving from
Collins, "has relied less on the beauty of the mathematical
problem and much more on the intangible human
element," which is melodramatic.
Ezra Jennings is a "Gothic mutation, described as a kind of
Frankenstein monster." Collins is indebted to Shelley's
FRANKENSTEIN.
The intro goes on to note, "The Gothic background from so
many of Collins' melodramatic effects led to several
stylistic attitudes: sensation (horror, pity, terror) would
never be too distant from narrative; characters would
often be dualistic - one half able to live in society, the
other half subterranean, feral, or wounded (Ezra,
Godfrey); much of the narrative would be cast in veils,
disguises, deceptions; as curse or an omen, the past,
matters of history, would press heavily on the present."
I can see some of that in MOONSTONE, but not all. Can't
wait for the discussion. :-)
Isn't it interesting how these authors influenced each
other?
K
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (1 of 26), Read 38 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Tuesday, January 01, 2002 11:48 AM
Today is the official start of the Moonstone discussion.
Please post all new notes here.
Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed this novel. The plot held
my interest, but I found the most pleasure in the eccentric
characters. My favorite was the aptly named Betteredge
(better edge), who was so often the voice of Wilkie
Collins' sharp wit.
To give only one example, here is Betteredge speaking of
the unfortunate Rosanna Spearman:
The upshot of it was, that Rosanna Spearman had been a
thief, and not being of the sort that get up Companies in the
City, and rob from thousands, instead of only robbing from
one, the law laid hold of her, and the prison and the
reformatory followed the lead of the law.
These comments reminded me of the current Enron
debacle and the slim chance that those responsible will
ever be imprisoned for defrauding thousands of
shareholders and retirees.
Betteredge's attempts to classify Franklin's behavior
according to the perceived French, German, Italian or
English influence were also amusing. Apparently, at that
time the Germans were considered a dreamy, unpractical
people too wrapped up in abstract philosophy. It's
interesting how national stereotypes change.
The second narrator, Miss Clack, was entertaining, but a
somewhat less successful character in my opinion because
she was so one dimensional. She certainly demonstrated
Collins hostility towards religious do-gooders. But then,
could we expect anything different from a man who
maintained households with two different women, neither
of whom he married?
I was also fascinated by the descriptions of Ezra Jennings
and the use of opium, a drug which played a critical part in
the narrative. Collins was himself addicted to an opium
derivative, laudanum, which was so widely used in the
nineteenth century that it was even given to babies. Since
he was an addict, I figured Collins knew what he was
talking about when he described the effects of the drug.
What about the plot? Did it hold your interest? Was it too
sensational by today's standards? For those of you who
are fans of detective fiction, how closely does this book
follow today's standards for detective fiction?
Ann
Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other
person to die. Carrie Fisher
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (2 of 26), Read 40 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Tuesday, January 01, 2002 01:59 PM
I love a good mystery, and I loved this book. I can't
imagine how I've gone so long without reading The
Moonstone.
I loved the names too: Miss Clack reminded me of "cluck"
as in a clucking hen. And she was all that. I was struck,
though, how she ended up impoverished and so went to
live in France. Is that what poor Brits do, or is that a
humorous twist?
In my library edition, there is an introduction by Catherine
Peters, that points out Collins' alternative point of view of
peoples of color. Following on the heels of Victory, I did
feel that many of the imperialist stereotypes were put to
the test. In most writings of the era, those with dark
complexions are assumed to have evil or mischief in their
hearts. Collins does a good job of challenging that.
MAP
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (3 of 26), Read 40 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Tuesday, January 01, 2002 02:34 PM
MAP,
Ezra Jennings had a dark complexion and was very
sympathetically portrayed, wasn't he? Since this was a
19th century novel I fully expected to have all the loose
ends tied up and I was waiting for an explanation of
Jennings' early history. I believe Dickens would have
explained Jennings' story, but Collins resisted the
temptation.
Aside from Miss Clack, most of the female characters were
portrayed very sympathetically. I liked Miss Rachel and her
mother very much, and I thought he handled the story of
the luckless Rosanna very well.
Ann
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (4 of 26), Read 38 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Tuesday, January 01, 2002 07:03 PM
Ann-
I think what made this novel stand out was Collins' ability
to combine a good, flat out mystery with his comments on
social mores and the characters he used as narrators.
One article I read said that his use of several narrators
allowed him more freedom to explore the injustices and
class stereotypes. It was uncommon to spend time on the
underclasses like Betteredge and Rosanna.
I thought the Miss Clack chapters were high comedy,
indeed. Didn't you just love the way Rachel's mother
handled all those tracts? She just bundled them up and
sent them back. HA!
The Select Committee of the
Mothers'-Small-Clothes-Conversion Society indeed!!!!! Too
rich! I think Collins and I would have gotten along great
on this point about the holier than thous.
Miss Clack felt "devout thankfulness" for Lady Verinder's
illness. "Here was a career of usefulness opened before
me!" How annoying, and how very sad for someone to live
her life like that.
I also got a kick out of Ablewhite's referring to Miss Clack
as a "Rampant Spinster."
Perhaps I should have felt sorry for her, but each time I
was on the brink, she would whip out one of those tracts
or fall into her holy prattle.
Though Miss Clack doesn't have the depth of Betteredge, I
think she is remarkably well drawn. She's a living,
breathing, stereotype I won't soon forget.
K
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (5 of 26), Read 39 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Tuesday, January 01, 2002 07:36 PM
I enjoyed this book much more this time around than I
remember enjoying it before. The characters were such
fun. I loved the Dickensian names: Betteredge, Clack,
Godfrey Ablewhite...
I was more drawn to Betteredge than any of the other
characters. But I reveled in the comical assassination job
done on Miss Clack. Wicked.
As for Ablewhite - I knew that pompous freak was up to
no good.
I found Our Hero, Franklin Blake, might have been better
named Lessthanfranklin Blank. What spunky Rachel would
want with that milksop is beyond me. But then Fine
Upstanding Characters are much harder to write than
strange ones.
My interest flagged towards the end of the book, where
the emphasis shifted more towards plot than character.
And I did think Ablewhite's double life needed to have
been foreshadowed just a tad.
Ruth
As a queen sits down, knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a general raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind.
Richard Wilbur
Walking to Sleep
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (6 of 26), Read 40 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:00 AM
On Ezra Jennings, it seemed odd to have such an
important character introduced so late in the book,
particularly in a mystery. His appearance (the piebald hair)
and his suspicious background seemed to throw me off
track. I read that Collins had the whole story outlined well
in advance, but I still have to wonder about Ezra. Is it
possible that Collins was suffering so with his own
maladies that he had to write that into the story?
MAP
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (7 of 26), Read 41 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:33 AM
I had the same feeling, MAP. To throw him into the mix so
late, and then to make so much of his miseries and
oddness and yet never have the explanation of them.
Ruth
As a queen sits down, knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a general raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind.
Richard Wilbur
Walking to Sleep
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (8 of 26), Read 41 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Edward Houghton eddh@pacbell.net
Date:
Wednesday, January 02, 2002 01:42 AM
To prove that serendipity is alive and well in 2002, I
opened a magazine and one of the paragraphs in an
article on unmarried women sleuths fits in here.
"One could argue a proto-spinster sleuth is present in
the first English detective novel, Wilkie Collins' THE
MOONSTONE (1868). Miss Clack, a poor relation, is one
of several narrators in the book. The sacred Indian
gem of the title has mysteriously disappeared. Miss
Clack relates some of the events leading to the
resolution. Poor and frustrated, she is a very
uncharitable in her assessments of others. Involved in
numerous strange charitable committees, she feels
compelled to put her version of Christianity and its
tracts before all about her and succeeds in alienating
all her rich relations. In the course of her antics she
overhears interesting facts. What keeps this wittily
drawn, tragic character from true spinster sleuth
status is determined prejudice. She refuses to
interpret what she knows against suspects she likes."
SPINSTER SLEUTHS, by Nigel Tappin THE MYSTERY
REVIEW; Volume 10, No. 2, Winter 2002
EDD
"This is when I really worried about the state of his mind.
He's spoken in unadorned, intelligible sentences,
forgetting to modify, embellish, and obfuscate. He'd
spoken to clearly and succinctly, I knew he was on his way
to a breakdown."
THE BLUEST BLOOD by Gillian Roberts.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (9 of 26), Read 36 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Wednesday, January 02, 2002 09:54 AM
****WARNING PLOT SPOILERS!!****
Collins had pretty well written himself into a corner with
the revelation that Rachel had seen Franklin take the
moonstone. He needed Ezra Pound as part of his
elaborate opium explanation. Collins had to be drawing on
his own use of the drug in creating this character. Still, I
think Ezra would have been more effective if he had been
introduced earlier.
As a reader, I wanted to know more about his early
background, but perhaps we knew enough. He appeared
to be the child of an English man and a native woman from
one of the colonies (perhaps India?). That alone would
have been enough to insure his misery in English society.
In addition, he suffered from a painful, incurable disease in
a time when doctors had little to offer patients and chronic
illnesses were common. There was a mysterious and
well-loved woman in his part, probably a lover but possibly
a daughter.
In his introduction, Collins talk about the almost
intolerable pain he suffered while writing this novel,
mental anguish due to the death of his mother and
physical misery due to rheumatic gout. These began when
the novel was about a third finished. That first third is
definitely the most polished and witty, although the final
two-thirds also held my interest. These personal problems
probably affected his writing.
Ann
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (10 of 26), Read 41 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:43 AM
Warning: I find it impossible to comment on this book
without disclosing the plot, so this comment is full of
spoilers!
I'm an inveterate reader of pre-WWII British mystery
novels (Agatha Christie, Dorothy L. Sayers, Josephine
Tey), and I can say that several of the classic conventions
for detective novels probably have their origin in this book.
The most common one is probably the motif of one
character's suspicious behavior, which everyone interprets
as guilt, but which is in fact an attempt to shield another
character whom s/he believes (usually erroneously) to be
guilty. Also, whenever one character sleeps unusually
soundly (especially when they've been sleeping badly of
late), you always know they've been drugged (usually by
the guilty person, in order to keep them from hearing
anything suspicious during the night).
I too felt that Ezra Jennings came out of nowhere -- and I
felt profoundly dissatisfied with the explanation that Frank
did everything under the influence of laudanum, and
remembered nothing the next morning. However, as
others have said, if Collins himself was addicted to
laudanum, he must have been familiar with its effects.
(And the character of Jennings takes on a whole new
significance in light of this information, especially Jennings'
terrible nightmares after he'd taken the laudanum -- that
must have been something Collins had experienced many
times.) Frankly, after the finding of Frank's nightgown, I
expected that it would turn out to have been Godfrey's
nightgown, which he had put Frank's name on once he
discovered the paint stains, and put in Frank's room in
order to throw suspicion on Frank.
Miss Clack was extremely amusing, especially in the way
she constantly betrayed her real motivations even while
ascribing the purest and most spiritual intentions to
herself. I especially liked the way she excused herself for
hiding in the alcove and spying on Godfrey's proposal to
Rachel: "I was so painfully uncertain whether it was my
first duty to close my eyes, or to stop my ears, that I did
neither. I attribute my being still able to hold the curtain in
the right place for looking and listening, entirely to
suppressed hysterics. In suppressed hysterics, it is
admitted even by the doctors, that one must hold
something." And there she is with her eyes glued to the
crack in the curtain, listening with all her ears!
I also liked the passage where she finds out that Lady
Verinder didn't leave her anything in her will -- somehow,
Miss Clack's raptures on how thankful she is that now
nobody can ascribe motives of greed to her attentions to
Lady Verinder, totally convey her deep disappointment.
I laughed out loud when I came to the conversation
between Betteredge and Jennings about the "burst
buzzard." That was the perfect spot in the narrative to
include some comic relief!
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (11 of 26), Read 42 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:27 PM
Alice,
** More plot spoilers**********
Much as I disliked Miss Clack, I felt sorry that she never
got the promised bequest. It must have been hell being a
poor spinster relative in those days.
I too initially questioned how opium could cause Franklin
to take the diamond and then remember nothing about it.
However, Collins was more or less an expert on the drug,
so I decided to trust him.
Ann
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (12 of 26), Read 36 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Wednesday, January 02, 2002 08:42 PM
Edd, I thought Miss Clack wasn't a sleuth at all, since she
didn't concern herself with the Moonstone at all. Her
writings were more character background information for
the reader. They let us know that there was more to
Rachel than the spoiled girl message we got from
Betteredge, that Lady Verinder was ill, and that good old
Godfrey wasn't quite as honest as we thought.
Which brings up another point: how many mysteries are
there where the object of investigation, in this case the
jewel, drops from mention for so much of the story?
Usually, you are driving, driving toward the solution. Here,
we take a break, but of course you know Collins will get
back to it. That must have driven the serial readers nuts.
MAP
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (13 of 26), Read 33 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Edward Houghton eddh@pacbell.net
Date:
Thursday, January 03, 2002 02:34 AM
MARY ANNE
I think that the thesus of the writer was that Collins had a
chance to create the first "spinster sleuth" with Ms Clack.
Like most spinster sleuths of literature, she had excellent
powers of observation. That she didn't solve the mystery
left it for another author to create the right character at
the right time.
EDD
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (14 of 26), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Thursday, January 03, 2002 06:29 AM
I continue to doubt Franklin's memory loss after taking the
laudanum, unless it's similar to the black outs some
alcoholics experience. I also doubt he would have
repeated his actions after the second dose, no matter
how skilled Jennings was.
However, I am more than willing to accept Collins' need for
a plot device to promote a semi-satisfactory resolution to
his mystery.
He had to explain Franklin's aberrant behavior somehow,
and Franklin's innocent use of laudanum totally absolved
him.
MOONSTONE is still a great read due to the strong
characterizations.
K
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (15 of 26), Read 28 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:27 AM
I agree, Kay. I would think that Franklin would have felt
some after effects of having taken such a drug for the first
time.
Also, in support of his experiment, Jennings mentions a
drunk who forgets when he is sober and remembers when
he is drunk. Would it not then merely be necessary to give
Franklin some laudanum to bring back the memory of that
night without having to recreate every detail? But, having
recreated the setting, wouldn't Franklin have remembered
into which drawer the diamond had been placed?
Nevertheless, I will not begrudge Collins the device
especially as it means that we got to meet Jennings and
enjoy his exchange with Betteredge. At least it didn't end,
as I was dreading that it might, with the conclusion "the
butler did it."
Incidentally, I believe that Jennings' mother was from
Trinidad.
Collins makes no secret of his atheism in his depiction of
the two proselytizers, Clack and Betteredge. The
hypocrital Clack is contrasted with the sincere Betteredge
as he attempts to convert people to his own biblion.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (16 of 26), Read 30 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Thursday, January 03, 2002 12:13 PM
Which reminds me - what is the deal with Betteredge's
constant reference to ROBINSON CRUSOE? I have never
read it, and find myself wondering if there are any
parallels to be drawn between it and MOONSTONE? I'm
wondering if it was more than a comic device.
Perhaps there is a correlation between the "noble
savages" of Friday and Jennings?
You're right, Dean. Betteredge's adamant faith in RC was
every bit as solid as Miss Clack's in the Bible. One
difference is that Clack spent her time trying to convert
others and Betteredge spent his living what he believed.
He offered his source, but did not push and make a
nuisance of himself.
Is it possible Collins intended that contrast, or is that
something I'm reading into it?
K
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (17 of 26), Read 33 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Thursday, January 03, 2002 02:38 PM
Kay, that is exactly the distinction which I saw between
Clack and Betteredge. I think that Collins is quite
consciously making the point that wisdom and solace can
be found in more than one place and that each person can
find it for erself and live by the principles which e finds
there.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (18 of 26), Read 30 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Thursday, January 03, 2002 06:55 PM
Dean,
Does the text specifically state that Jennings mother was
from Trinidad?
Ann, just curious
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (19 of 26), Read 30 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, January 04, 2002 01:40 PM
Wasn't it fun how Clack spoke of herself? 'Me' had that
'Capitalized M.' I could almost hear the
accentuated..MMMEEEEE
...mememememeemememe, ME!
And as far as her spinsterhood goes, that's certainly not a
surprise! What man would want to be saddled with a self
proclaimed Miss 'PerpetualVirginMary,
HolierThanGODHimself?'..(Tho it was obvious to me
Godfrey ROCKED her world.) And what a farce it was that
her charitable works involved shortening men's trousers
to give to poor children! I bet she fantasied that the men
were still wearing them as she snipped!
What about Roseanna Spearman? Was she good or was
she bad? At first I thought she had transformed, under
Mrs. Verinder's wing, into this lovely lady, but after her
note to Franklin, I did wonder about her motives..for the
note, that is.
One thing i did not understand...the three Brahmins..why
were they so condemned? I mean, they were only
attempting to return the diamond to the temple from
where it had been stolen in the first place.
Beej
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (20 of 26), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Friday, January 04, 2002 05:35 PM
Oooooooh, Beej. You are almost as wicked to Poor Saintly
Miss Clack, as WC was.
Ruth
As a queen sits down, knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a general raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind.
Richard Wilbur
Walking to Sleep
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (21 of 26), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, January 04, 2002 08:32 PM
(are spoiler warnings needed in the actual discussion
thread? I'll post a warning, just in case..)
SPOILER!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And while I'm at it..Rachel watches the man she professes
to love steal the diamond and never says anything to him?
She just keeps hiding and NEVER SAYS A WORD???
Man, I certainly would never have made it as a 19th
century Lady. They would have heard my mouth straight
down thru to the servant's kitchen.
Beej
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (22 of 26), Read 17 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Friday, January 04, 2002 10:19 PM
Exactly the same thought I had, Beej.
Exactly.
Ruth
As a queen sits down, knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a general raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind.
Richard Wilbur
Walking to Sleep
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (23 of 26), Read 14 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Friday, January 04, 2002 11:57 PM
Beej, I agree about Godfrey being more to Miss Clack than
a Christian Hero. In the scene where he talks with her
after Rachel has broken off their engagement, she's
obviously longing for him to kiss her (probably the last
thing on his mind) but she describes her state of mind as
"spiritual ecstasy!"
About Frank, I didn't like him at all when he was being
described by Betteredge, but once it got to his own
narration I started to like him more -- and I liked him very
much in Jennings' narration. And although Betteredge was
very likable in his own narration, I got a much better
picture of what he was like when the other characters
narrated.
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (24 of 26), Read 19 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:46 AM
Ann, in searching for an answer to your question, I found
a web site which confirms that the colonial outpost of
Jennings's upbringing is undisclosed.
It also addresses the excellent question which Beej raised
about the treatment of the Brahmins.
Beej, I loved your comments about Clack.
Here's the site:
http://www.qub.ac.uk/english/imperial/india/moonstone.htm
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (25 of 26), Read 6 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:11 AM
"Rachel’s stained gown and altered personality suggest
the potential for loss of virginity and marriage to subsume
her individuality and identity."
1) What gown of Rachel's was stained? I thought the only
stained gown belonged to Franklin. That's why Rosanna
hid it.
2) I agree in most part with the article Dean posted. But I
do think the author is stretching a bit when he draws the
parallel between Rachel's virginity and the rape of the
Indian moonstone. It works, but I would wager that's one
point Collins didn't realize he was making. I'd bet he saw
the theft simply as a means to move the plot along.
3) I found Rosanna's actions quite in line with her past
and personality. Even if she had turned into a good girl
under Lady Verinder's kindness, she still carried the guilt
of her past crimes. So, when she thought Franklin had
committed the theft, she allowed him the same grace she
had found and set out to protect him. I found Rosanna
very sympathetic. She said nothing to Franklin because
she simply couldn't find the courage to do so. She did the
next best thing and took steps to protect him the only
way she knew how.
K
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (26 of 26), Read 8 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:31 AM
Kay, I wondered what gown of Rachel's was stained, too.
(I missed that, unless the author of the article was
referring to the probability that Rachel sh** herself when
she saw Franklin steal the diamond!)
I took the rape business in Dean's link to mean the British
'raping' of India during the siege of Seringapatam, and
how, that having been done, the Moonstone caused the
ruination for someone whose life, up until possession of
the diamond, had been innocent. Hence, Rachel was no
longer (emotionally) virginal.
Rosanna...I understand why she took the paint smeared
gown. What I didn't understand was why, if her motive
was to protect Franklin, she didn't simply throw it in the
swamp. Why preserve it? And, why the letter to Franklin?
And, why commit suicide? Did that REALLY have anything
to do with Franklin? It seemed to me suicide was on this
woman's mind long before she met him.
Beej
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (27 of 33), Read 18 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Saturday, January 05, 2002 04:50 PM
This book held a number of surprises for me. The first one
was that our local library did not have it on the computer,
yet I found 3 copies on the shelves. So I got an early start
which is helpful to a very slow reader. The second surprise
was in the book itself. I found it was written in the
classical mystery style of the 1850s. I would suppose it
predates Sherlock Holmes. But this book is delightfully
different from most of the stuff that we have been reading
over the years. The characters are, I would say, "Classic
Types" for that day and age. Whoever picked the book
should get a gold medal! (Do you pass them out Ann?)
Kay the fact that I read Robinson Crusoe dates me -
unfortunately. I read it in my childhood and its about a
ship wrecked family who established themselves on an
island. However natives attacked them and they were
rescued just - at the last moment by the crew of an
unexpected ship passing by. At least this is what I
remember from long ago.
Reading Robinson Crusoe as a constant source of
entertainment and relaxation (while smoking his pipe)
would point to a somewhat simple, unsophisticated type
who has fun escaping into a fantasy world.
As I am only 1/4 through the book I am looking forward to
the relaxation and enjoyment in store for all of us in the
following 3/4. Of course I am getting very curious about
Wilkie Collins' personality and hope to find out more about
him.
Ernie
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (28 of 33), Read 17 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Saturday, January 05, 2002 05:38 PM
Ernie, are you sure you haven't mixed up Robinson Crusoe
and Swiss Family Robinson. I've never read RC, but I think
it's only one guy - until he finds his native friend Friday.
SFR is about a family, and it was one of my favorite books
when I was a kid. I read it over and over.
Glad you're enjoying the Moonstone. I sure did. I love the
voices of the different characters, don't you?
Ruth
As a queen sits down, knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a general raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind.
Richard Wilbur
Walking to Sleep
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (29 of 33), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Saturday, January 05, 2002 08:06 PM
I, also, think that the article is wrong about Rachel's
stained
gown, although Beej's idea gave me quite a chuckle.
I liked the article because it mentions that Collins wanted
to point
out the colonial attitude toward other cultures. This is still
an issue
today in the case of the Parthenon Marbles, a series of
sculptures
which Lord Elgin shipped to London over the course of
several
years up to 1810. These artifacts are still a contentious
issue
between Greece and the United Kingdom.
More info here:
http://www.greece.org/parthenon/marbles/
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (30 of 33), Read 22 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Saturday, January 05, 2002 10:33 PM
Great website on the marbles, Dean. What I wouldn't
have given for the resources of the web when I was
teaching Art History.
Ruth
As a queen sits down, knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a general raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind.
Richard Wilbur
Walking to Sleep
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (31 of 33), Read 11 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Sunday, January 06, 2002 01:39 AM
I know, Ruth. I'm amazed at the quality of information to
be found on the web.
I also wanted to mention that the Moonstone article
makes an interesting point about Collins giving opium a
positive role in the story.
I admire Collins for the way he used literature to break
down Victorian social barriers. Not that he was the only
one to do this but I was surprised to find it in this type of
work and the novel left me unexpectedly uplifted.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (32 of 33), Read 11 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Sunday, January 06, 2002 03:38 AM
Though the article is right about imperial colonialism, I do
want to point out that the three Brahmins do commit
murder to retrieve the moonstone.
K
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (33 of 33), Read 8 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Sunday, January 06, 2002 10:25 AM
Absolutely true, Kay.
'Tis true that the basic difference between the Brahmins'
desire and the British characters' desire to possess the
Moonstone is that one wants it for religious reasons and
the other for wealth...two of life's greatest motivations.
But is one really better than the other? I mean, on the
surface its easy to assume spiritual motivation is superior,
but these Brahmins not only murdered in order to get the
diamond, they felt justified in doing so. At least those who
desired the diamond for monetary reasons didn't behave
as if as they believed they had God on their side.
Is Rachel the only one who wants it simply because of its
beauty?
(The Moonstone is primarily a tale of... an English society
with a central core of rottenness.
God, I love that!)
Beej
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (34 of 45), Read 17 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Sunday, January 06, 2002 02:05 PM
Wow -- gotta get finished with my reread -- I'm flying
along and will chime in sometime -- but ANN, are you
gonna give out a gold medal as Ernie suggests?
{WBEG--wicked big evil grin}? ggggg
As to books of type -- in some book talk yesterday with my
hairdresser -- I came out with something which I hadn't
realized had registered as I was rereading The Moonstone
-- I am finding it reminds me of Alias Grace and The Alienist
in tone of the mysterious threads of the stories. Collins
influencing current writers possibly?
Dottie
Solitude is a human presumption. Every quiet step is
thunder to beetle life underfoot, a tug of impalpable
thread on the web pulling mate to mate and predator to
prey, a beginning or an end. Every choice is a world made
new for the chosen. Prodigal Summer, Barbara Kingsolver
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (35 of 45), Read 18 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Lynn Isvik washualum@yahoo.com
Date:
Sunday, January 06, 2002 09:55 PM
One thing I found particularly intruiging about this story is
that the person responsible for asking witnesses to record
the facts of the mystery is the one who turns out to have
taken the Moonstone in the first place. In essence, he was
asking people to help him nail himself. That plot twist was
surprising to me, but perfectly understandable in the end
since Franklin had to piece the story together in order to
demonstrate his ultimate innocence.
Lynn
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (36 of 45), Read 19 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Sunday, January 06, 2002 10:00 PM
Was anyone else surprised that Rachel accepted the
opium/amnesia theory so readily?
Beej
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (37 of 45), Read 20 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Lynn Isvik washualum@yahoo.com
Date:
Sunday, January 06, 2002 10:05 PM
I wasn't really surprised by that. She obviously loved
Franklin so much that she was anxious to find any
explanation that could exonerate him.
Lynn
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (38 of 45), Read 16 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Sunday, January 06, 2002 10:40 PM
Lynn, didn't Franklin ask for these reports after the
mystery had been solved? The seventh narrative, which
speaks of Ezra's death, is dated September 26th, 1849.
But the conversation Franklin had with Betteredge asking
that the details be recorded, was dated May 21, 1850.
Beej
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (39 of 45), Read 11 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 06:42 AM
I finished this yesterday morning in a marathon reading
session, after staying up until 11:30 (late for me) reading
in bed. I actually had a headache from the small print that
lasted all day. After Franklin found out he was the one
who "stole" the diamond, I just couldn't wait to find out
what happened. The narrator device was very well-done I
think, except that people in that day had a much better
memory for details than I have.
I loved Betteredge's voice and Miss Clack (Drusilla Clack --
what a name!) was outrageously funny, although I did get
a bit tired of her after a while. Her narrative was mercifully
short.
At the end, I was a little impatient with all the wrapup
material, but I was glad to see that the Moonstone was
returned to its rightful place (although I, too, disapprove
of murder, even the murder of scoundrels -- but oh, there
would be so many fewer fun books to read without it).
Sherry
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (40 of 45), Read 11 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 07:40 AM
I'm wondering why Collins had the Brahmins kill to retrieve
the diamond. They were certainly crafty enough and
sufficient in force to have tied Godfrey up and left with the
jewel.
That seems to mar the justification Collins seemed to be
going for when he tried to show the cons of imperialism.
K
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (41 of 45), Read 17 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 08:04 AM
That's a good question, Kay. And Collins made certain we
understood that the Brahmins wouldn't hesitate to kill if it
meant retrieving the Moonstone. He mentioned it often
enough throughout the story.
Maybe he didn't want our sympathy to stray too far from
Rachel. Or maybe he wanted the reader to be fully aware
that the importance of the Moonstone to them superceded
life itself.
Beej
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (42 of 45), Read 13 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 10:26 AM
Maybe he believed that people everywhere will kill in the
name of religion.
Ann
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (43 of 45), Read 12 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Lynn Isvik washualum@yahoo.com
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 10:38 AM
I got the feeling that death to the person who stole the
stone was part of the curse placed on it when it was
stolen originally in India. It seemed to be the penalty
attached to taking the diamond from its rightful place.
And, yes, Beej, Franklin doesn't ask the witnesses to write
their narratives until after the mystery is solved. However,
the reader doesn't know that at the beginning of the book
of course. That's why I thought it was an interesting plot
device. It worked well to keep THIS reader from
suspecting Franklin until well into the unfolding of the
mystery.
Lynn
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (44 of 45), Read 11 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 11:13 AM
Was it Ablewhite's father or uncle that stole the stone?
Last name was Herncastle, I think. Perhaps its a "sins of
the fathers" kind of curse.
None of the subsequent possessors understood the
stone's religious significance. They appreciated it primarily
for its monetary value. Perhaps that's the true sin.
Yes, I think it's possible Collins was making the point that
all sorts of crimes are committed using religion as
justification. His attack may have been on more than just
the Christian religion.
K
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (45 of 45), Read 1 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 03:22 PM
As I remember, John Herncastle was uncle to all three of
the young people -- Rachel, Franklin and Godfrey. The
three of them were cousins through their mothers, who
were all Misses Herncastle before they married.
I recently realized that I have been subconsciously
associating Franklin Blake's character with that of Frank
Churchill in Emma -- the same spoiled, charming,
lightweight, likable young man, who gets the girl (of
course Frank Churchill's "girl" is not the one we suspect at
first) in spite of everything.
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (46 of 52), Read 22 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Jody Richael
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 05:18 PM
SPOILERS
Alice thanks for your earlier comments about mysteries.
I'm not an avid reader of them so it was interesting to
learn a little more.
I also agree with Mary Ann's comments about Ezra. I
thought he was introduced too late and he also threw me
off. I was very skeptical of his motives.
Do you think Collins intends for the reader to have the
plot figured out before it is revealed or not? I did a quick
reread after reading the novel and found more hints than
I caught at first but I don’t think anyone could really have
guessed the ending based on the information he
provides. In fact there is no one character in the novel
who put the entire thing together.
In the preface to my book, Collins said that his purpose in
past novels was to trace the influence of circumstance on
character but that his purpose with The Moonstone was
to trace the influence of character on circumstance. I’m
not exactly sure what he means by that or how one is
really different from the other. Does anyone have any
ideas?
Two unresolved issues for me:
1) Uncle Herncastle’s will specified that the diamond was
only to be given to Rachel as long as her mother was
living. Why was that? We never really do find the uncle’s
motive in leaving the diamond to Rachel.
2) Why did Rachel refuse to have her wardrobe searched?
She knew they wouldn’t find anything. Was this just a
device to get us to think Rachel was guilty or did it have
some other purpose?
I enjoyed the book and loved the humor!
Jody
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (47 of 52), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 06:46 PM
Beej, I also found Rachel's acceptance of the opium
explanation a little too swift. She gets an unsolicited letter
from Ezra Jennings, who she doesn't know, proposing his
theory, and she jumps at the explanation. This after
having given Franklin the royal boot in person. Her
character throughout led me to believe that a turnaround
on Rachel's part would take a lot more than it did. Was
Collins anxious to wrap things up at that point?
Did anyone expect that Ezra Jennings would be
discredited when the inspector got to town? I thought
perhaps his past would catch up to him the way Miss
Spearman's did.
MAP
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (48 of 52), Read 21 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 06:57 PM
>> Uncle Herncastle’s will specified that the diamond was
only to be given to Rachel as long as her mother was
living. Why was that?
Uncle H had had a grand falling out with his sister. What
better way to get back at her than to will the Bad Luck
Diamond to her daughter and not to her? What mother
wouldn't squirm while watching her daughter suffer?
Ruth
As a queen sits down, knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a general raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind.
Richard Wilbur
Walking to Sleep
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (49 of 52), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 07:16 PM
MAP, The entire character of Ezra Jennings surprised me.
Sinister in appearance and unpopular as he was, my
mindset, right from his introduction, expected him to be a
carbon copy of Uriah Heep.
Your thoughts on Rachel's hasty acceptance of Ezra's
explanation are exactly the same as mine. If she loved
him enough to so readily accept what Ezra wrote, then it
seems to me she would have loved him enough to have
asked him, from the get go, what the hell he thought he
was doing when he took that diamond. I just can't picture
letting something fester and destroy a relationship with
someone you love that deeply, without a fight. But, that's
just me.
How interesting that the curse did not effect Franklin..the
supposed thief. It seems to me, even tho he took it, the
Moonstone was really stolen by Godfrey, and the curse
caught up with him.
I think Rachel refused to allow her wardrobe to be
checked as a means of preventing any searching at all.
She knew Franklin's gown was the one with the stain.
Beej
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (50 of 52), Read 18 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 08:04 PM
I think Ezra Jennings was mentioned a couple of times
during the novel as Dr. Candy's assistant. Rachel would
know he was a doctor and would know him even if the
readers didn't, since Dr. Candy was her doctor.
Sherry
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (51 of 52), Read 22 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Monday, January 07, 2002 09:33 PM
Could "Dr. Candy" be a reference to the placebo effect?
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (52 of 52), Read 6 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Tuesday, January 08, 2002 06:21 AM
Could be, Dean. I also wonder if it's not a reference to his
kind nature. He was very good to Ezra. I have no idea
whether he was an effective physician or not.
K
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (53 of 56), Read 37 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Tuesday, January 08, 2002 03:12 PM
Ruth,
You were, as usual, correct about pointing out to me the
difference between Robinson Crusoe and the Family book.
I looked it up last night in one of my source book. That
taught me a lesson: You can't trust childhood memories
when you are in your old age (BG). So, I stand corrected
and now have to read Robinson Crusoe once more.
I truly love the Moonstone book in part because it is so
different from the stuff we usually read. Also I am
interested in the social stratification of 19th Century
England. They really drew the line between classes and I
do recall that I was amazed when I observed how class
differences were of much lesser importance in the US.
compared to Vienna. At that time people of different
classes only rarely if ever socialized. How things have
changed!
Ernie
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (54 of 56), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Jody Richael
Date:
Tuesday, January 08, 2002 04:27 PM
What did you think of the technique of using the many
different narrators? It was interesting and effective but I
found myself always wondering if I should really be
trusting what each person was reporting. In most of their
narratives their records of actual events are accurate but
the motives and meanings they infer from people's actions
frequently were wrong. Betteredge in particular seemed
to misread many people while his daughter Penelope
seemed to always get it right.
Jody
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (55 of 56), Read 19 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Wednesday, January 09, 2002 11:34 AM
I liked hearing the different versions. The different
interpretations which the characters make on the facts
and the consequences of those interpretations may be
what Collins meant by "character determining
circumstance." Also, the insights into culture which these
versions provide raise the novel above genre into
literature.
Concerning the different characters, I agree with those
who would have preferred that Jennings be introduced
earlier.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (56 of 56), Read 12 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Thursday, January 10, 2002 04:15 PM
Jody,
I agree with Dean that introducing these different
characters not only make things more interesting but also
throws new light on the mystery and the way each person
perceives and interprets it. It makes the book!
Miss Clack reminds me of a lady character presented in
one of C. Dicken's books who was unusually narrow
minded. I understand the Dickens and Collins were friends
and co-workers in a journal that Dickens published. Their
writings may have something in common.
Ernie
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (57 of 57), Read 12 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Friday, January 11, 2002 04:53 PM
Ernie, my edition has an introduction by J.I.M. Stewart which
says that Collins did influence Dickens. They both contributed
to "Household Words" and "All the Year Round."
The central situation of a play by Collins, "The Frozen Deep,"
gave Dickens his idea for a "Tale of Two Cities."
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (58 of 59), Read 16 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Karen Kasmar doctorsadie@aol.com
Date:
Sunday, January 20, 2002 09:36 PM
I found the use of narrator device to be refreshing. I only regret
that I spent so many years not having read this fine novel. Being
the nosy human that I am, I couldn't wait to read each
character's narrative, to see how the plot thickened. I still don't
get the repeated references to Robinson Crusoe, save the fact
that this was a little man who read to escape reality, but I have
feeling there's more to it than that.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (59 of 59), Read 15 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Monday, January 21, 2002 12:15 AM
After finishing The Moonstone recently I like to express some
general and more specific comments as well. First of all that the
carefully worked out and intricate design reflect on Collin's
ability as a writer of mysteries. All the pieces fit together
resembling some ancient and intricate tapestry. I also find the
characters fascinating and well portrayed, be it Ezra Jennings,
Roseanna Spearman etc. But who in my opinion really stand out
are Franklin Blake and Gabriel Betteredge. I feel sympathy
toward Rachel but I found her less interesting or unique.
Introducing the Shivering Sand added a mysterious and even
frightening aspect to the story. On the negative side, I found his
description of the Indian natives questionable but understand the
author's prejudices based on the biased colonial views of his
time.
All in all this was an excellent selection which I enjoyed more
than many of the other books that we have been reading. The
book held my interest at all times and can be well considered an
excellent old fashioned thriller and precursor of subsequent
mysteries.
Ernie
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (60 of 61), Read 12 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Wednesday, January 30, 2002 08:01 AM
I'd like to chime in just once more -- if only to say that I
am sorry I didn't post more on this one{G} -- Ann -- I just
this moment read the tag line on your initial post -- God, I
love it -- Carrie Fisher is one of my favs!
If I didn't say so earlier -- I loved the reactions which
Collins and The Moonstone received from the first time
readers here -- it is such fun to hear what someone says
about a book which one has loved for so many years!
Again I would like to pose the question on Collins possible
influence on present day writers -- I was particularly
thinking of the books Alias Grace, The Alienist, and even
perhaps An Instance of the Fingerpost. What do you think?
I recall these as having used various
viewpoints/narrators, similarities in character
development and relating to the time frame in which their
stories were unfolding in much the same way The
Moonstone is presented.
Regarding Jody's question on Collin's intent for the reader
to figure out the plot ahead of the revelations of the
same -- I don't really know for certain but think that I did
not do so on my first encounter with this book at junior
high age-- and am thinking that that may even have been
one reason for my being hooked so firmly to this book for
lo these many years!
Thanks for a great discussion on one of my all-time
favorite books.
Dottie
Solitude is a human presumption. Every quiet step is
thunder to beetle life underfoot, a tug of impalpable
thread on the web pulling mate to mate and predator to
prey, a beginning or an end. Every choice is a world made
new for the chosen. Prodigal Summer, Barbara Kingsolver
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (61 of 61), Read 12 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Wednesday, January 30, 2002 08:02 AM
Ann -- maybe not just READ it but just REGISTERED it {G}
Dottie
Solitude is a human presumption. Every quiet step is
thunder to beetle life underfoot, a tug of impalpable
thread on the web pulling mate to mate and predator to
prey, a beginning or an end. Every choice is a world made
new for the chosen. Prodigal Summer, Barbara Kingsolver
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (62 of 64), Read 18 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Wednesday, January 30, 2002 01:13 PM
Dottie,
Yes, I ran across that quote by Carrie Fisher in Esquire
magazine: "Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for
the other person to die." It struck me as so, so true. Now, if I
can just remember those words of wisdom. :)
The Moonstone is a perfect example of why I enjoy this place.
It's a book I never, ever would have picked up on my own. In
fact, I never expected it to be so witty or clever. And yet, it was
one of my most enjoyable reads on Classics Corner this year.
And no, I didn't figure out the mystery until the end, but its
solution was really secondary to me. I just thoroughly enjoyed
the characters.
Of course, Collins reminds me of Dickens in some ways, but I
like the way he didn't sentimentalize the pitiful Rosanna, as I feel
Dickens would have done. Dickens can be just as witty at times,
but so much of his work gets buried in quirky, cardboard
characters and rampant sentimentality.
Ann
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (63 of 64), Read 13 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Wednesday, January 30, 2002 08:58 PM
Dottie, I've read two of the three books you mentioned, Alias
and Instance, and my reaction is that The Moonstone is so much
better than either of those. I've read many mysteries over the
years, but I can't really say I've been a student of the genre.
Could Collins be called one of the earliest mystery writers? I'm
thinking that he would, and that he set the bar quite high for the
rest.
Of the more modern mystery writers, I would prefer Umberto
Eco.
Strike now, or else the iron cools. - W. Shakespeare
MAP
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (64 of 64), Read 8 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Thursday, January 31, 2002 03:58 AM
MAP -- oh I agree the new ones can't touch Moonstone -- just felt
there might have been some influence in these few which seem
to be reaching back in style toward Collins fin work. I also think
you may have the right choice in Eco -- yes, closer in quality to
this one. And I think it may be on the main page in the synopsis
on Moonstone that it states this is touted as the first English
mystery -- something to that effect anyway.
Dottie
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (65 of 65), Read 7 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Thursday, January 31, 2002 09:42 PM
I finally got the chance to start Moonstone today and am
delighted by the first few pages. Have tried not to read much of
this thread until I'm done to avoid the spoilers. However, I've
noted how many of you were surprised at the quality of it (I
never would have read this without CC either, Ann) and I see
what you mean already. Am looking forward to reading the
discussion when I finish.
Barb
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (9 of 17), Read 25 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Edward Houghton eddh@pacbell.net
Date:
Friday, March 15, 2002 11:56 PM
A few comments on THE MOONSTONE before DARK
ANGEL starts.
Incidentally my copy is a Modern Library version which I
bought second hand back in the Jurassic Era. It was
marked down from $2.95 to $1.65. A real bargain,
considering that it also contains THE WOMAN IN WHITE
also. Diane has read both of these, but I procrastinated
until this golden opportunity.
One thing that bothers me a whole lot is the relationship
between Rachel, Franklin and Godfrey. Aren't these people
closely related. First cousins, aren't they? Doesn't this play
hell with the gene pool? Didn't the Europeans learn what
happens when you inbreed when all of that hemophilia in
the royal gene pool? If it isn't against the law it sure as
hell ought to be.
For all the talk and build up by Collins and the old servant,
can't recall his name right now, I thought Rachel came
across as a bit of a ninny. Pure motive or not, all she had
to do was open her mouth at the time the Moonstone
disappeared and the mystery would have been solved on
the spot. Of course Godfrey might have had a different
end.
Betteridge (see I remembered) was a quaint old soul.
Rather likeable I thought. I think Collins was making fun of
a certain type of person with the ROBINSON CRUSOE
gimmick. Some people had the idea that if you opened the
BIBLE to any page at random, then what you pointed at
explained whatever problem you might have at that
moment. Sort of a message from GOD. Of course it takes a
lot of interpreting, but those kind of people had lots of
time. Using ROBINSON CRUSOE is a good send up, at
least in my opinion.
Gotta go, the TV is calling.
EDD
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (10 of 17), Read 25 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:00 AM
My impression is that this type of playing around in the
same gene pool was typical of the British upper classes.
Possibly an explanation as to why they've never been
known for their intelligence.
Ruth
"Everywhere I go I'm asked if I think the university stifles
writers. My opinion is that they don't stifle enough of them."
Flannery O'Connor
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (11 of 17), Read 27 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:30 AM
I really like your idea about Betteridge's use of Robinson
Crusoe, Edd. I remember people doing that and think
you've hit on something there. It's a perfect little piece of
satire.
I read Moonstone after everyone here, then enjoyed the
archived discussion enormously, but didn't post because I
didn't have anything to add. You, on the other hand, came
up with something totally new.
Barb
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (12 of 17), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Joe Barreiro barreiro4@attbi.com
Date:
Saturday, March 16, 2002 08:10 AM
The British upper class did have a thing about selective
breeding. One of the nastier ad hominem Creationist
attacks against evolution theory I've seen concerns
Charles Darwin's marriage to his first cousin which went so
far as to state that his children were mentally retarded,
despite the fact that most of his children lived long,
prosperous lives and were eminent in their own rights in
scientific professions. (Of ten children, two died in infancy
and one daughter died at the age of ten of TB.)
**An aside - it's scary that when I went to do a search on
the House of Windsor bloodline a disproportionate number
of hits led to David Icke and his lunatic theories; the
internet is truly a breeding ground for lies and
disinformation.**
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (13 of 17), Read 22 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Saturday, March 16, 2002 10:03 AM
I absolutely agree, Joe. When the parents of the special
education children I teach go looking for information on the
internet, I always catch my breath a bit. There is so much
junk out there presented as fact with implied authority.
Barb
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (14 of 17), Read 15 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Edward Houghton eddh@pacbell.net
Date:
Sunday, March 17, 2002 01:39 AM
Some excerpts from Alexander Woollcott’s introduction to
the Modern Library edition of THE MOONSTONE:
”…THE MOONSTONE made its first appearance in 1868
in the weekly journal called 'All the Year Round', of
which Charles Dickens was the editor. The Wilkie Collins
who wrote it was already known as the author of THE
WOMAN IN WHITE, a fearsome and fascinating mystery
in some ways more extraordinary and more brilliant
than THE MOONSTONE, but as a whole a less perfect
work and not properly speaking, a detective story at all.
About THE MOONSTONE Dickens, as early as June,
1867, was writing to a colleague in this fashion:
I have read the first three numbers of Wilkie's story
this morning and have gone minutely through the plot
of the rest, to the last line. It gives a series of
‘narratives,’ but it is a very curious story, wild, and yet
domestic, with excellent character in it, and great
mystery. It is being prepared with extraordinary care,
and has every chance of being a hit. It is in many
respects much better than anything he has done.”
Woollcott mentions the relationship between Collins and
Dickens, a relationship that seems to have been mostly
ignored by Dickens’ biographer, John Forster.
”...After all, Wilkie was the elder brother of the Charles
Collins, who married Kate Dickens and who drew the
endlessly debatable sketches for the green jacket, in
which the installments of EDWIN DROOD first made
their interrupted appearance….Wilkie himself was at
once Dickens’s warmest friend, his most welcome
collaborator and his most marked influence.
…We shall probably be left knowing of William Wilkie
Collins little beyond the fact that he was born in
London on January 8, 1824 and died there in his
sixty-sixth year, and that in his heyday he wrote two
of the best mystery stories in any language…”
EDD
“I knew an old woman who swallowed a horse,
she’s dead of course.”
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (15 of 17), Read 9 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Sunday, March 17, 2002 09:08 AM
Interesting stuff, Edd. I didn't realize that Collins was
actually related, in some non-genetic manner, to Dickens.
Barb
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (16 of 17), Read 12 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Edward Houghton eddh@pacbell.net
Date:
Sunday, March 17, 2002 04:23 PM
BARBARA
It was sort of a back door relationship, but they knew each
other and must have met both for social and business
reasons. Woollcott has a lot of contempt for the Dickens
biographer, maintaining that a lot more could be known of
Collins if his relationship with Dickens had been explored.
Near the end of his life, Dickens had a huge bonfire where
he burned his correspondence and a lot of his notes as I
understand it. He also seems to have had his wife
committed, possibly not for true medical reasons. Isn't life
amusing; a hundred years after the fact, there is still
gossip. Maybe I'll look into Dickens' life one of these days.
EDD
"I knew an old woman who swallowed a rhinoceros,
ain't that preposterous?"
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (17 of 17), Read 8 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Sunday, March 17, 2002 05:20 PM
I've read a bit about Dickens, Edd, and it's interesting stuff.
Of course, I've found that is so about most of the authors I
admire. They are all so wonderfully fallible.
Barb
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (18 of 19), Read 22 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Joe Barreiro barreiro4@attbi.com
Date:
Monday, March 18, 2002 06:54 AM
Peter Ackroyd's biography on Dickens goes into a lot of
detail about many of these things. This was one of the
books I most enjoyed reading last year. CD was a very
fascinating man. He left his wife for what appeared to be a
basically non-sexual relationship with a young actress. He
did indeed burn as much of his correspondence as he
could find and requested that his friends return his letters
so that he could destroy them. Wilkie worked for him on
on CD's magazines and he was as well a close personal
friend. Dickens would often, till near his death, walk for
literally miles every day once he had completed his writing
regimen, on occasion walking from town to town on his
speaking tours. If I recall correctly he would often walk 20
miles a day as part of his regular routine at a 5 mile an
hour pace or so. His friends who would accompany him,
including Collins who wasn't the most athletic of
specimens, would often be hard-pressed to keep up with
him. Collins as I remember him being described was a bit
of a roue, who preferred to spend his time enjoying the
pleasures of life, including those provided by prostitutes.
Topic:
Moonstone Discussion (19 of 19), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Monday, March 18, 2002 12:32 PM
As I remember, Dickens not only abandoned his wife, but
he wanted his children to abandon her too. She was set
up in a separate household and his wife's sister
maintained Dickens' household for many years. He was a
complicated man.
Collins maintained households with two different women
at the same time. He was not in good health and he was
addicted to opium as a pain reliever.
Ann
|
Wilkie Collins
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