Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (14 of 37), Read 59 times 
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Monday, January 07, 2002 09:32 PM 


Wow! It's a tad difficult for me to keep everyone straight!
Lets see..
A,B and C are sisters who marry Mr. D, E and F. They all
have children called G, H, I, J, K, L..so on and so forth
..except for sister B, that is. She has no kids.
Well, child M goes to live with her Aunt A and Uncle D.
(Are you following me still?)
THEN! Along comes this other couple (I'll refer to them as
Mr. and Mrs. R.)..who take in two young adult children I'll
call P and Q, who each become engaged to children G and
H.

(And I'm only on page 44!) 

Whew. Okay. I got it.
Sorta.


Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (15 of 37), Read 53 times 
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Monday, January 07, 2002 10:28 PM 


I should add, despite the number of characters we meet
early on, this is a great, great book, and I'm so glad Barb
and Ann decided to read and start a thread on it!


Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (16 of 37), Read 48 times 
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Monday, January 07, 2002 10:44 PM 


Saturday morning, I woke up early, brewed a cup of coffee
and stayed in bed all morning finishing Mansfield Park. It
was my idea of heaven. 

POSSIBLE SPOILERS:



This one seems very different to me than the other
Austens. For some reason, I thought that she addressed
the issue of slavery a bit in it (I thought that even before I
saw the movie), but not true. What she does address
more than I remember in any of her other books is
poverty. I got a pretty nitty-gritty sense of what it was like
to grow up in Fanny's house, especially when she
returned. I also found less direct humor, not as many of
those lines dripping with direct irony. I did love the
description of Maria's wedding though:

It was a very proper wedding. The bride was elegantly
dressed--the two bridesmaids were duly inferior--her father
gave her away--her mother stood with salts in her hand,
expecting to be agitated--her aunt tried to cry--and the
service was impressively read by Dr. Grant..

Aunt Norris was also a humorous character, in a way,
though also curiously sad, sort of poignant in her total lack
of understanding even though she could also be incredibly
mean.

But, in exchange for the humor, there are far more layers
to some of the characters than in the earlier books. Norris
is a good example. The Crawfords were a pair too, weren't
they? They always return to the bottom line. But, I have to
say that I found them the most interesting people in the
book. 

Beej's note reminds me that I had a bit of trouble following
the dialogue in the early part of the book. I often couldn't
figure out for sure who was talking but that improved
enormously after the first 50-100 pages.

Barb 


  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (17 of 37), Read 48 times 
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, January 08, 2002 09:43 AM 


Barb, I read quite a bit last night and things have
straightened out in my mind. I don't know why I was
having so much difficulty keeping everyone straight. Must
have been just me.



Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (18 of 37), Read 47 times 
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Sherri Kendrick sheval@hotmail.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, January 08, 2002 06:07 PM 


Beej - I had only read the first chapter when I read your
post, and it cleared everything up for me.

Sherri
Not all who wander are lost - Tolkien

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (19 of 37), Read 40 times 
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, January 09, 2002 09:18 PM 


Sherri, did you have difficulty keeping everyone straight at
first, too? I've been having trouble focusing on what I'm
reading lately, so I figured it was just me.
But I'm enjoying this book enough now that I picked up
'Sense and Sensibility', Pride and Prejudice' and 'Emma', all
combined in one book.


Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (20 of 37), Read 38 times 
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Friday, January 11, 2002 07:29 PM 


I'm not finished yet, but I know one thing; I can't stand
that Mrs. Norris.


Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (21 of 37), Read 34 times 
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Friday, January 11, 2002 10:47 PM 


She certainly is a b----, isn't she, Beej?
Ann

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (22 of 37), Read 35 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, January 15, 2002 04:24 PM 


She was beyond being a bitch. She was an interfering,
nosey, self flattering shrivelled up worthless waste of
flesh.

One reason I kept getting confused was that the couples
kept playing musical chairs in the love department. These
people sure switched partners a lot! 

And, that Edmund! Wow, was he ever blinded by Mary
Crawford's looks. But, I have to say, Fanny was dull, dull,
DULL! 


Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (23 of 37), Read 35 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Pres Lancaster plancast@neteze.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, January 15, 2002 06:17 PM 


BEEJ:

Pretty please, perhaps the sentence should read:

"One reason I kept getting confused was that the couples
kept playing musical chairs in the silly infatuation
department, the self serving mating department, AND the
love department."

pres

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (24 of 37), Read 32 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, January 15, 2002 08:06 PM 


Are we ready to discuss this yet? 

"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (25 of 37), Read 36 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, January 15, 2002 08:12 PM 


For you, Pres, anything!

And you are absolutely right. These folks' hearts went
pitter patter over NOTHING! I mean, Fanny's little forehead
curl fell out of her dainty ribbon while she was doing
needlepoint, and the main macho man of the story almost
went into apoplexy! Nothing like a wayward little curl to
move a man to fits of love/infatuation/LUST!
(Of course, he switches partners, too...several times.)

But, I have read enough of these 19th century English
classics to trust that this was exactly how the upper
echelon of society 'wooed.' (At least the French and
Russian literature of this era portrayed love with
panache!)


I'm going to read either 'Emma' or 'Pride and Prejudice'
soon, if anyone would care to join me.




Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (26 of 37), Read 32 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, January 15, 2002 08:37 PM 


Alice, I'm ready!


I think one of the things that struck me was that the
person who was actually born into the upper crust of
society, Sir Bertram, was the one person who valued
Fanny regardless of what class she was born into. And he
was the only one who was not a blood relative! I was
appalled that Mrs. Bertram and Mrs. Norris could treat their
sister's child so terribly. It appears that 'old' money is
much, much more charitable than 'new' money.


Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (27 of 37), Read 24 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, January 16, 2002 06:54 AM 


I'm ready too, Alice and Beej. How about you two, Ann and
Sherri?

Barb

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (28 of 37), Read 23 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, January 16, 2002 12:54 PM 


I just finished this last night. This one kept my interest --
any Jane Austen would do that because she is one of my
favorite authors-- but it appealed to me less than any of
her other novels I have read, including Persuasion, Pride
and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, and Emma.

Fanny barely seemed like an Austen heroine at all. She is
really meek and non-assertive. Dare we call her a goody
two shoes? Personally, I would much rather be around
that naughty Maria. It's true that she lacked "moral fiber",
but she got, and provided, a lot more pleasure in life.

As for Bertram senior, he was rather snobby towards
Fanny in the beginning, but his attitude changed in a very
positive way after he returned from Antigua. That wasn't
really explained, other than that she looked so much
better he could finally appreciate her worth.

I saw the movie version of this a couple of years ago, and
they took great liberties with the book. The character of
Fanny is completely different. At the time, I read that the
writer and director tried to incorporate much of Austen's
own personality into the character. I would scarcely
recognize her from the book.

For me this was an old-fashioned romance novel without
any sex and only splashes of Austen's wit here and there.
I liked it, but I would never be tempted to read it again,
unlike Austen's other novels.

Beej, I would like to reread Sense and Sensibility with you.

What did the rest of you think?

Ann

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (29 of 37), Read 22 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, January 16, 2002 01:13 PM 


Oh, I agree that Maria would be more fun to hang with!
Imagine what this book would have been, had Maria been
the central character!

I was shocked when Maria married that bland Mr.
Rushworth. I knew she'd skip off with the first charmer
that came along.

And, Ann, I'm delighted that you're willing to read Sense
and Sensibility with me! Thanks!


Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (30 of 37), Read 20 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Sherri Kendrick sheval@hotmail.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, January 16, 2002 02:34 PM 


I haven't finished yet, but don't worry about it, I'll catch
up. 

I find this one hard to get into, and I'm a big Austen fan.
Perhaps it's not having a sympathetic character. Mrs.
Norris is a selfish woman, all of them seem self-centered,
and even Fanny is just wimpy. I don't recall in other
Austen books there being such a meek character.

I'm up for discussing S & S. But will continue with this one. 

Sherri
Not all who wander are lost - Tolkien

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (31 of 37), Read 21 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, January 16, 2002 02:39 PM 


Beej, did I say Maria? OOps, I meant Mary Crawford. Maria
Bertram is far too mercenary for my tastes, although she
would be fun to watch in action. 

Mary recognized quality when she saw it in Edmund, but
she knew herself too well to think she could ever be
satisfied with being the wife of a struggling country
parson. Was that so bad? 

I criticized Fanny for being too meek and submissive, but
really things were terrible for a dependent, female relative
in those days. The position of such a woman was
precarious and her choices were extremely limited because
she really couldn't hope to support herself unless she
became a governess, which seems to have been a really
miserable career. No wonder Fanny had to be so careful
not to offend anyone. 

Part of the problem a modern reader has with this book is
that behavior that Austen's contemporaries might have
found shocking doesn't strike us the same way. For
example, it was hard for me to fully appreciate how
Edmund, Fanny, and Sir Bertram could find the play so
objectionable. Of course I understand that it was beyond
the pale for a married woman to run off with another man,
but it's difficult to accept that this behavior really ruined
Maria's life forever. I suspect she just continued down the
slippery slope of ever loosening moral standards. A sequel
might have been interesting. :)

Alice, you mentioned this book was one of your favorites.
Could you elaborate? 

Ann

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (32 of 37), Read 19 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, January 16, 2002 08:47 PM 


My book's intro, written by Paul Montazzoli, has this line:

..'it is a relief when Fanny, in chapter 39, has her first witty
idea..'

Well, that just about says it all!


But, I'm sure you're right, Ann. She knew her place and
she felt lucky to be at Mansfield Place, especially after
visiting her parents.

(Wasn't her father a trip?)


Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (33 of 37), Read 20 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
      Thursday, January 17, 2002 06:36 PM 


Fanny is probably the least liked of all of Austen's
heroines. She is not witty like Elizabeth Bennett or Emma
Woodhouse, not naive and charming like Catherine
Morland, and not strong-minded like Elinor Dashwood or
Anne Elliott. She is passive, meek, downtrodden, physically
weak (subject to headaches, even has to be lifted onto a
horse), and frankly pretty boring. The interest of the book
comes from watching what the other characters do. Fanny
is the "moral conscience" of the book.

With regard to the character of Mary Crawford, more than
one critic has pointed out that she shares many qualities
with Elizabeth Bennett and Emma Woodhouse -- she is
active, witty, charming, musical, friendly, good-hearted
(she and Edmund are the only people who are at all nice
to Fanny for most of the book), and in general much more
attractive than Fanny. The lesson of the book (admittedly
this is probably Austen's preachiest novel) is that those
qualities aren't always enough. And it's worth nothing that
Mary isn't really a parallel for Elizabeth or Emma. We can't
imagine either Elizabeth or Emma condoning Maria and
Crawford's illicit affair, as Mary does. And Mary's wit does
not connote any real intelligence -- there are times when
she is singularly dense (as when she fails to understand
that Edmund would be totally repulsed by her attitude
about Maria and Crawford).

This is one of my favorite Austens because the book itself
is so well constructed. As an example, the scene where
they all go to Mr. Rushworth's house and end up
wandering around looking for each other in the garden all
afternoon, is very well done and is full of implications for
the characters and plot. Edmund and Mary wander off
through the "wilderness" together -- an analogy for the
way in which Mary is tempting Edmund away from his true
calling (as a minister). Fanny sits on a bench the whole
time (enough said). Julia is left behind inside the house
with the older people and is very upset about it. Mr.
Rushworth is sent back to the house like an errand boy by
Maria and Crawford, to fetch a key (just as he is later used
as a mere convenience by Maria in their marriage). Maria
wishes to pass through a locked gate (symbolic of her
later marriage vows) but can't do it without the key (to be
provided by the master of the estate/her husband), until
Crawford shows her how she can "slip past the spikes"
without harming herself (though when she later attempts
to slip past the spikes of public opinion she gets seriously
harmed).

One last thing: I don't know why it took me so long to
realize that this is a straightforward Cinderella story,
complete with wicked aunt/stepmother, selfish stepsisters,
transformation of Fanny into a "princess" by means of a
new gown and a pretty necklace, and of course the grand
ball. It makes one wonder how many real-life Cinderellas
there may have been -- poor relations taken into their rich
uncles' houses from motives of charity, but for whom
charity did not extend to truly making them members of
the family. Fanny was raised to be a lady and given a good
education, but it is doubtful her uncle would have ponied
up for a dowry for her, and if Edmund had not married her
she would probably have ended up a kinder version of
Mrs. Norris (living with her rich relatives all her life), or else
used her education to become a governess (which was
probably what Sir Thomas had in mind for her).

"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (34 of 37), Read 22 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Thursday, January 17, 2002 07:06 PM 


Thanks, Alice. I especially liked your analysis of the visit to
Mr. Rushworth's estate. It really did foreshadow
everything else that happened later, although I didn't
realize it at the time.

You're right in calling Fanny a Cinderella character. Were
you bothered by the transformation of the Bertrams from
condescending, inconsiderate relatives to beloved family in
the end? Or did this seem like a natural development as a
result of Fanny's realization that life with her birth family
would have been infinitely worse?

Ann

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (35 of 37), Read 28 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Thursday, January 17, 2002 07:57 PM 


I thought of Cinderella as I read this book, too.

Alice, your insights and observations of the doings in the
Rushworth gardens are just wonderful! 

I think one huge theme of this novel might be the
nature/nurture issue, too. 

Fanny has been removed from the influences of poverty,
and has culturally benefited from her wealthy relatives,
even though she is little more than a servant. The
comparison between her birth family and herself is
incredible. She might be on the lower end of the cultural
ladder within the Bertram family, but within her parents'
house, she's obviously way, way beyond them, socially. In
a way, this had to alienate Fanny even more. She fit in
absolutely nowhere.
And then to move on to the Crawfords who had been
bounced from family to family for much of their lives. They
seemed to have developed all the social mores of the
upper crust, but personal development meant nothing to
them. 
It seems that the higher people were in society, the less
they thought of anyone but themselves.

Did anyone else get the feeling Sir Bertram was a little too
attracted to Fanny?


Beej

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (36 of 37), Read 14 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
      Thursday, January 17, 2002 10:44 PM 


Beej and Ann, thanks but I can't take credit -- the stuff
about the scene in Mr. Rushworth's garden is from an
Austen class I took in college -- my professor gets the
credit, not me!

Beej, very good observation about the Crawfords -- I did
not recall that they had been bounced from household to
household with no one really "raising" them. Austen
usually puts a great deal of emphasis on home life and its
effects on character, so I think she'd come down more on
the side of nurture than nature -- though there are
enough silly mother/daughter pairs in her books, that she
probably felt heredity has something to do with it too.

One more thing about the contrast between Mary
Crawford and Fanny -- I think it shows up best in the
letters they write to each other. Mary always writes these
flip, silly little notes, that really don't make very much
sense. The one she writes to Fanny after Henry Crawford
tries to propose to her is an example: she tries to be arch
and to hint delicately at her meaning, but she just ends up
being confusing and incoherent. Fanny's reply, though she
writes in great distress and confusion, is extremely clear
and pertinent, and says exactly what she means to say
while still observing the proprieties. 

One last thing: I think this is the only Austen novel where
we are not treated to a single romantic scene between
the heroine and her suitor. Maybe Austen didn't quite
know how to show the transition from cousins to lovers. I
think she should have at least attempted something of the
sort, because the last time we "see" Edmund is when he's
in the throes of disappointed and disillusioned love. We
essentially have to take his falling in love with Fanny on
trust, because we're never shown it -- the impression
we're left with is that he is a sort of prize for Fanny
because she deserves him so much. (This is very similar to
the marriage of Marianne and Colonel Brandon in Sense
and Sensibility.)

"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon

  <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (37 of 37), Read 10 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:22 PM 


Ann, you asked:

"Were you bothered by the transformation of the Bertrams
from condescending, inconsiderate relatives to beloved
family in the end? Or did this seem like a natural
development as a result of Fanny's realization that life
with her birth family would have been infinitely worse?"

This seemed to me quite natural, but not because of any
realizations Fanny might have had. I think these people
were so superficial and so wrapped up in themselves, that
as long as their needs were being met, especially in the
case of Mrs. Bertram...she now had Fanny's sister to wait
on her hand and foot...and without Mrs. Norris around, it
just simply didn't meet their needs to be anything but
gracious. They could now afford to treat Fanny with grace. 
Plus, the scandal over Maria's affair, and Tom's illness must
have been severe reality checks. 



Beej

<HR>

Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (38 of 40), Read 15 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Friday, January 18, 2002 12:38 PM 


Beej,
Good observation that Fanny was in danger of being
educated to fit in nowhere. It's easy to forget how
important social class was in Austen's time since it is so
much more fluid in our own day and country. (Thank God!)

Beej, did you see the movie Mansfield Park? It definitely
implied that the father lusted after Fanny. I'm not sure if
that idea was in the text, or if I thought there were hints
of it because I'd seen it depicted in the movie.

Alice, I think it would be true to say that Austen never
wrote a good love scene. She certainly is wonderful in
writing about the chase and all the detours leading up to
the declaration of love, however.

Austen herself never married and probably felt much more
uncomfortable writing about love, as opposed to the
yearning for it. As I remember, there were rumors that she
once was very attached to a young man, but they both
realized they could never marry because he owed it to his
family to marry someone with money, which Austen
certainly did not have. She agreed to marry another man
at one point, but rescinded her acceptance the next day. If
she had married, we may never have had her wonderful
novels, so we are probably the richer for it. Also, she was
very fond of her own large family, so I don't think she was
lonely because she remained single.

Beej, I checked out Sense and Sensibility yesterday, along
with The Razor's Edge.

Ann

<HR>
 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (39 of 40), Read 21 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Friday, January 18, 2002 12:57 PM 


Ann, Nope! I never saw the Mansfield Park movie. I picked
up on Mr. Bertram's lust entirely from the book.

I have 'Sense and Sensibility' right here beside me and will
finish up some other stuff I'm reading and get to this,
probably next week.


Beej

<HR>
 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (40 of 40), Read 13 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Sherri Kendrick sheval@hotmail.com 
 Date: 
      Friday, January 18, 2002 06:40 PM 


I,unfortunately, am getting a little buried by my reading
pile, and since I'm having a hard time with MP, I'm going to
give up, for now. I have Razor's Edge lined up and Sense
and Sensibility, so will join in then. But I have been
enjoying the discussion.

Sherri
Not all who wander are lost - Tolkien

<HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (41 of 56), Read 25 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Pres Lancaster plancast@neteze.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 01:33 PM 


BEEJ, you say:

"I picked up on Mr. Bertram's lust entirely from the book."

Evidence, please, because, by my own reading, it is not in the
book. I would say that no male character in any Austen novel is
observed to experience lust on or off the page. Financial
interest, yes. Love, yes. Love at the expense of financial
interest, yes. Lust, no.

Further, I do not think it is in Mr. Bertram's character. If he is so
high minded that he can be offended by the play, he is unlikely
to be randy. And at his age. And why Fanny when he could have
Mrs. Norris? (joke) 

And further, why are we to believe that mouse invisible Fanny is
suddenly an houri of the parkland?

pres

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (42 of 56), Read 24 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Pres Lancaster plancast@neteze.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 02:01 PM 


ALICE CK:

I've very much enjoyed your discussion of Manfield Park.

MP has the reputation of being the most difficult (i.e., slowest
reading, least interesting) of Austen's novels because Fanny is a
mouse without a squeak.

But if the reader will have patience, the book is almost
Dickensian with characters and social observation. Pays
rereading, too.

The book certainly parallels Cinderella, but the comparison is no
favor to MP, where the happy ending is won in a real rather than
a dream world.

pres

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (43 of 56), Read 22 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Sherri Kendrick sheval@hotmail.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 02:21 PM 


Perhaps this is why I'm having problems with MP - I hate
Dickens.

Mostly, I think it's because there is not a sympathetic character,
and Fanny is wimpy, I know it fits her station in life, but it bugs
me anyway. 

I had seen the movie, but don't remember much of it, and I do
want to get through this, it's just going to take a lot longer than
her others.

Sherri
Not all who wander are lost - Tolkien

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (44 of 56), Read 25 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 02:34 PM 


Pres, There was just something there. And the fact that Ann tells
me it was portrayed as such in the movie, which I haven't seen,
further convinces me.
Mr. Bertram was not cherished by his family. In fact, they were
relieved when he left for Antiqua. When he returns, Fanny listens
to his stories. She pays authentic interest in him. He constantly
remarks about her newly developed beauty and form. He is
obviously greatly impressed. Mrs. Bertram has become a whiny,
helpless child. Perhaps Fanny reminds Sir Bertram of the woman
his wife was when they were young.
I do not think Sir Bertram would verbalize his attraction toward
Fanny, much less act upon it. But, I wondered, when he was
talking with her about her refusal to marry Mr. Crawford, if he,
very briefly, thought Fanny might be attracted to him, too.

'Sir Thomas looked at her with deeper surprise. "This is beyond
me," said he. "This requires explanation. Young as you are, and
having seen scarcely anyone, it is hardly possible your
affections---"
He paused and eyed her fixedly. He saw her lips fixed into a NO,
though the sound was inarticulate, but her face was like scarlet.
That, however, in so modest a girl might be very compatible with
innocence, and choosing at least to appear satisfied, he quickly
added, "No, no, I know THAT is out of the question--quite
impossible. Well, there is nothing more to be said." '

At first take, it might seem that Mr. Bertram is asking Fanny if
her affections belong to another man, but I truly think he was
asking her if he was the object of her affections. Fanny told him
"No." I doubt Fanny was capable of lying. She said no and she
meant, no. If he had meant any other man, she, because of her
feelings for Edmund, would have merely said, "Yes", and left it at
that.

In the following paragraph, it says:
She would rather die than own the truth...

But, I think that had nothing to do with what Mr. Bertram was
asking. I think it simply meant she would not admit her love for
Edmund to anyone.


I am not saying I am correct in this, but only that this was what I
personally picked up.


Beej

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (45 of 56), Read 17 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 03:04 PM 


As I think I said in my earlier note, I really missed the wit that is
so present in Austen's other books. It's not just that Fanny is a
bit wimpy. There's much less humor throughout. I wondered if it
was delivered in a more subtle manner, because I can be a bit
dense about subtlety sometimes, but I don't think so. However, I
did like the relative complexity of the plot and the interweaving
of the characters and their motivations.

Alice, I greatly appreciated your comments about the chapter in
the Rushworths' garden. I had the sense that the events were
significant but was too involved in the story to stop and try to
make the connections.

When I listened to the biography of Austen on tape, there was a
lot of attention to the chronology of the writing of her books. A
number of them were written, then reworked extensively by the
time she finally managed to get them published. However, I
have the sense that Mansfield Park and Persuasion were
primarily written when she was a mature writer. I really liked the
way she incorporated the poverty of Fanny's family and made it
almost palpably real. I wonder if she could have done that when
she was younger. I always have sensed the vulnerability of
women with meager finances in Austen's world. However,
Fanny's situation takes us beyond her usual light treatment of it.
I liked that.

Barb 

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (46 of 56), Read 20 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 03:08 PM 


BTW, I felt a bit squeamish when I was reading Mr. Bertram's
opinions about Fanny upon his return from Antigua, particularly
his comments about her figure. However, I wondered if it was
my modern sensibilities speaking.

Barb

<HR>
 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (47 of 56), Read 25 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 03:14 PM 


Barb, I would also think comments such as those Sir Bertram
made concerning his niece's figure would have been even more
startling to readers when this book was first published. I really
do believe Austen was alluding to an uncommon attraction of an
uncle toward his niece, even a niece by marriage.

Beej

<HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (48 of 56), Read 20 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Pres Lancaster plancast@neteze.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 02:31 PM 


SHERRI:

CR Maxim: "I want to get through with this" means "Time to put
it aside".

It took me years of picking up and putting down Jane Austen
before I became an addict. And Jane Austen paints Folly with
masterful strokes.

pres

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (49 of 56), Read 14 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 04:27 PM 


I suspected Mr. Bertram's motives towards Fanny because of all
the references to the fact that he found her so much more
attractive physically when he returned. However, Pres you really
do have a point that it is difficult to associate lust with any of
Austen's characters. I think perhaps Bertram just valued Fanny
more because she was suddenly pretty. I found him rather
offensive, although I suppose his attitude is rather typical of
society in general.

Barb, good point about the insights the book provides into a life
of poverty. In the case of Fanny's family, the total lack of
organization, the downright chaos of family life, certainly made
things even worse. You know things had to be bad for her to
miss that totally useless and selfish Aunt Bertram so badly.

I started Sense and Sensibility today and Austen's wit is
apparent on every page.

Sherri, I'm not a great Dickens fan myself, although I make
exceptions for Great Expectations and A Tale of Two Cities.

Ann

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (50 of 56), Read 17 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 04:31 PM 


But, to give the devil his due, Sir Bertram did stop Mrs. Norris'
abhorrent treatment of Fanny, and I believe he had Fanny's best
interest at heart.
All said and done, I became very fond of Sir Bertram.


Beej

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (51 of 56), Read 17 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 04:58 PM 


Beej, by modern sensibilities, I mean that today we are sort of
trained by the media and psychology to assume sexual abuse
wherever we go. Even if it was going on, I don't think they
thought as much about an uncle commenting on his niece's
figure in Austen's day (if it was done in a "genteel" way). It
seems like the same sort of the same thing as the closeness
among women expressed at those times. Today, we would
assume that it had underlying sexual connotations.

Barb

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (52 of 56), Read 19 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, January 19, 2002 05:11 PM 


Hmmmmm..maybe you're right, Barb.
I really didn't mean that I thought Sir Bertram acted in an
improper way, only that I thought he might have had feelings
that were not altogether appropriate. 
Beej

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (53 of 56), Read 18 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
      Sunday, January 20, 2002 01:24 AM 


I agree there's not much of the famous Austen wit in this book.
The parts that come closest to being funny are those that have
to do with the competition between Maria and Julia over Henry
Crawford. I think this book is seen too much through Fanny's
eyes, and Fanny has very little sense of humor. If Austen had
allowed all the latent humor of the Maria/Julia rivalry to come
through, it would have jarred with Fanny's shocked outrage at
their behavior.

I wonder if the fact that Fanny is from a lower middle-class
family has anything to do with her puritanical sensibilities?
Although the young Bertrams are hardly the giddy aristocracy,
they all (except for Edmund) seem fairly lax in their moral
standards. Austen explains this as the pernicious influence of
both Mrs. Norris (for spoiling them) and of London (for corrupting
them), but perhaps it is more fundamentally a conflict between
the younger generation and the older. It's somewhat amusing
that Fanny's father, as boorish as he is, has no doubt that
Maria's behavior is reprehensible. (I'm sure there are plenty of
parents today who would agree with his proposed method for
her reform!) Perhaps there's more in common between Mr. Price
and Sir Thomas than at first appears!

I never thought of any sexual connotation to Sir Thomas'
newfound interest in Fanny, probably because Austen never
deals with such subjects in her novels. His altered attitude
towards her seems to me to have more to do with his
disappointment in the way all his own children have gone to the
dogs, than with any sexual interest on his part. I certainly never
thought that when he grilled Fanny about why she refused
Crawford, there was any insinuation that he was asking her if
she was in love with him. I'm sure he would have been properly
appalled at such an idea (any potential sexual feeling towards
her would have been so repressed that he would have been
totally unaware of it). Fanny's increased clout in the household
(a fire in her room, she gets the carriage to go to the Crawfords'
for dinner) is, to me, more of a signal that she might be elevated
to the status of "daughter" rather than "poor, dependent
relative" now that Maria is gone and Julia spends all her time in
Maria's house.

I want to return to the character of Mary Crawford, because she
fascinates me. I liked Beej's comment that Mary would be much
more interesting and fun to be around than Fanny, who was a
wet blanket. Mary was flawed, but she had good instincts -- she
valued Fanny highly when no one else but Edmund did and was
properly outraged at Mrs Norris' treatment of Fanny even before
she knew Fanny well; she recognized quality in Edmund even
though he was unfashionable, not witty or flirtatious, etc. In a
way it would have been more satisfying if she had been the
heroine and had come to realize that her upbringing had left her
with (by Austen's standards) "darkened" morality, and had
allowed Edmund to "improve" her. After all, Mr. Darcy rectified
his own faults of pride and prejudice through love of Elizabeth! I
can't picture Edumund and Fanny's marriage -- their household
wouldn't be a very interesting place.

"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon

 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (54 of 56), Read 19 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:41 AM 


Alice,
I like that idea of Mary being the heroine of the novel, instead of
Fanny.

It's been awhile since I read Emma, but I think in that novel
Austen took as her subject a heroine who was immature and in
need of some moral improvement. By the end, Emma was finally
worthy of her mate. Mary represented a similar opportunity.


 <HR> 

 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (55 of 56), Read 21 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Sunday, January 20, 2002 11:50 AM 


I like this idea of Mary being the heroine of the book but
watching her development out of her fairly superficial value
system. However, I'm not totally sure that Mary, the way Austen
paints her initially, could have made that journey. Also, I had the
sense that, in this novel, Austen wanted to focus on Fanny's
position as a truly poor outsider, not just one with limited funds
as in some of her other books.

Barb 

<HR>
 Topic: 
      Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (56 of 56), Read 26 times 
         
 Conf: 
      Classics Corner 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Sunday, January 20, 2002 01:22 PM 


Maria Bertram was the character who most intrigued me, and I
wish we had been told more about her.


Engaged to Mr. Rushworth, yet emotionally involved with Mr.
Crawford, I think she was a fascinating woman. She went
through with that marriage only because it was expected of her,
and because of Mr. Rushworth's wealth and social standing. She
already HAD wealth and social standing, but would have brought
shame to her family had she not gone through with this
marriage. Fanny did the opposite....love was her criteria. She
took every risk of disappointing her uncle, of losing his approval.
She was, in effect, the absolute opposite of Maria, in this regard.


The Rushworths were very successful in their social 'obligations.'
They had all the obligatory parties and such, yet it seems Maria
got to the point where all this meant not a thing. She ends up
leaving Rushworth and taking off with Crawford. We are left
knowing she never finds acceptance. Her decision to marry for
reasons of social acceptance has negated any chance of total
contentment for her.


I wish we could have known more about her life, thoughts and
emotions during her marriage. I think that would have been a
fascinating story of how very much social rank affected people,
especially in contrast to Fanny's life and choices.


Beej

<HR>

Topic: 
     Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (57 of 57), Read 8 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, January 30, 2002 11:06 PM 


I just finished reading MP, having read S&S first. I really loved
this book. I've enjoyed all of the posts here and I have a few
comments to add.
Alice, thank you for your post about the importance of the
garden scene. For some reason, I felt that the play was also
quite important, demonstrating the official start of the Bertrams'
slide toward corruption. What could be the harm of a little family
production? But the first thing that happens is that Edmund
decides to participate against his better judgement, to protect
Miss Crawford, don't you know. Then Julia is left out because
Henry Crawford has chosen Maria. Two steps, and the family is
out of whack. Fanny is asked to help the acting lovers rehearse
their lines, and she sees it all happening and knows it's not right.
And at last, Sir Thomas comes home and they all seem to know
that they've been caught doing something they shouldn't be
doing.
While I didn't discern anything lustful, I did think that part of Sir
Thomas' admiration of Fanny was because she was so much like
himself - a person of steady morals.
I laughed out loud at the end when Mrs. Norris decides that since
she's not wanted she'll just go to be with Maria. Poor Maria!
Barb, I chuckled at your first post about finishing the book in bed
on a Saturday morning. I recently read the archived discussion
of Wings of the Dove, and you did the same thing for that book!

Strike now, or else the iron cools. - W. Shakespeare
MAP
  
<HR>
Topic: 
     Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (58 of 58), Read 8 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Thursday, January 31, 2002 09:25 PM 


That play really was a turning point, wasn't it, Mary Anne? I
loved the contrast of the reaction of the guest (the guy who
finally married Julia) and the rest of the play's members when
Sir Thomas came home. He thought there would just be a pause
and they would continue in their preparation. The rest of them
all seemed to suddenly see it through different eyes.

I had forgotten that I finished Wings of the Dove in bed on a
Saturday morning. How funny! Don't you love to do that
though? A cup of coffee, pillows propped up, everyone else still
asleep or busy elsewhere....heaven.

Barb 

<HR>