Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (1 of 110), Read 148
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 07:22 AM
Love of a Good Woman by Alice Munro
I always find it difficult to talk about whole books of short stories.
Where do we start? Do we talk about the individual stories or about
the collection as a whole? And if we talk about the stories one by
one, how to we keep things straight? I guess the only thing to do is
to dig in and try to keep posts clear. Name the story you’re talking
about and re-state questions you are answering. That said, let’s
go.
I have two stories left in this collection. So far what has struck me
is that most of the women, even while trying to strike out on their
own, seem to be reacting to men one way or the other. Men are
the center -- in the men’s eyes (it would seem) and in the
women’s. This seems especially true in the two stories I just
finished reading “The Children Stay Here” and “Rich as Stink”. I was
going to say that the first story “Love of a Good Woman” has a
different feel to it. But on considering the question of “do the
women revolve around the men” I would have to say “Yes”. What
do you all think?
Besides this question, there are so many things to talk about.
These stories put me squarely in a time and place, living with real
people. In a short span of time, Munro is able to create a universe.
Sometimes this universe seems somehow slightly different from the
one I’m in, but that is what I think makes her writing so compelling.
Sherry
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (2 of 110), Read 90
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 10:43 AM
Only pieces of these stories transport me; I think those are the
parts that are most purely autobiographical in nature or at least
based on Munro's personal experience. Elsewhere, where she seems
to be creating out of whole imagination, there is a definite change
of tone or style that is ever so slightly off-key to me.
An example is from the first story, 'Love of a Good Woman', where
in the first vignette the boys find the submerged car, return home
and keep their mouths shut for a considerable period of time. The
vignette is the setup for the remainder of the story, but it simply
didn't ring true to me: 12 year old girls might have behaved and
acted in that fashion, but in my opinion, 12 year old boys would not
have. Result: slightly off key to my ear.
The remainder of the story was more on the market, albeit a slightly
gothic one. Although much of it seemed strange to me, much
modern fiction from a feminine viewpoint has this effect on me. One
conclusion I did draw: if this story makes any general statement
about how women choose their mates, then the intra-specie chasm
is wider than I had previously suspected.
I'm about half-way through now, and so far the first story was my
least favorite as it seemed somewhat contrived, overall. Remarkable
writing, though, and it is quite clear she has been in Vancouver in
the winter.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (3 of 110), Read 93
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 03:23 PM
Dick, I suspect your criticism of the episode concerning the young
boys in the title story is directed at the fact they took so long to
tell anyone about their discovery of the automobile with corpse in
the river. If so, I agree. I cannot feature boys keeping their mouths
shut like that. On the other hand she had some details correct,
such as their nonchalantly acting as if they had easy access to
firearms and their not using any names when addressing each other
while off alone. This kind of thing struck true with me.
I really did enjoy the Rupert/Enid section, macabre though it was
what with Enid's weird dreams and all. The depiction of the missus
lapsing into the ravings of uremia (a bad way to go) was chilling.
As to how women chose their mates, there can be no general
observations, can there? This was just one story about one woman
in a far different time. No question in my mind that Enid and old
Rupert lived happily ever after though.
Sherry, I'll reserve judgment on the rest of the stories until I read
them (good idea, don't you think?), but as to the title story, it
featured a woman who was out there in contrast to the majority
who were pretty much house bound. Just because the thought of
old Rupert started to get her juices flowing did not mean her world
revolved or would revolve around him, did it? Now once she and
Rupert got together, she must have sworn off the profession of
swabbing down people in their death throes, but we cannot deem
that a sellout--or perhaps she didn't give it up.
Maybe I am too smug in my assumptions. Does anybody believe
that Rupert dumped her in the river?
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (4 of 110), Read 98
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 04:19 PM
Not me. I think Rupert was the goner.
I have to admit I was genuinely surprised by the plot turn, when
she revealed the secret Mr. Willen, not to mention his bad end.
Munro does this in the other stories I've read so far as well -- not
quite deux ex machina devices, but devilish plot twists nonetheless.
Appears one of her deals is the unknown and unexpected depths of
the apparently ordinary. Sometimes it seems a little forced, I think.
Meanwhile, I'm rethinking that decision not to go to optometry
school.
The Chilblained Lawyer Doesn't Make House Calls, But Is
Still...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (5 of 110), Read 105
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 06:03 PM
Actually, the woman whose life was revolving around a man was
the wife who died, not the visiting nurse (by this time, I've
forgotten all their names and the book's upstairs). It was implied
that the worry about the "accident" had somehow caused her
affliction. Her anger and bitterness all seemed to be because of
what her husband had done (and what the secrecy had done to
her). She was dying because of what her husband had done. Was
she the "good woman" of the title?
I was a little surprised by the silence of the boys at the outset,
too, but I don't think girls would have been any quieter. In the King
short story "The Stand" didn't the boys who saw the dead body
keep it quiet from the adults? Or am I just misremembering the
movie? I never read the story.
Sherry
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (6 of 110), Read 106
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 06:19 PM
I finished the book last night and am pleased to see that the
discussion is off to a great start. I'm also glad to see that we will
have plenty of opportunity to read some "guy" perspectives,
because what impressed me most about this collection is that
everything is told from the female point of view. I can't think of any
adult male character who has an existence independent of the way
some woman views him. The little boys in the first story come
closest.
What impressed me most about the wife who died was how mean
she was. I don't think the accident made her sick at all. The illness
was just a quirk of fate. We would like to think that we will be
patient and long suffering in our final moments here on earth, but in
far too many cases it just isn't that way. Illness makes the best of
us crabby and bitter. This woman is an example of what happens to
the worst.
I really wasn't sure what the ending of this story meant. The nurse
was very self-righteous, albeit apparently "saintly." She was more
than willing to spend the rest of her life visiting the guy in prison.
Remember how she intended to remind the guy repeatedly that she
couldn't swim? I think she was going to confront him with the
accusation that he killed the eye doctor. If this resulted in him
throwing her into the river, that may have been just as satisfying
to her as nabbing the guy in holy matrimony.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (7 of 110), Read 111
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 09:00 PM
Hi everyone,
I am convinced that Enid talked herself out of confronting Rupert
with the murder of Dr. Willens. "Through her silence, her
collaboration in a silence, what benefits could bloom. For others,
and herself."
In fact, on the first page, "Also there is a red box, which has the
letters D.M. Willens, Optometrist printed on it, and a note beside it
saying, 'This box of optometrist's instruments though not very old
has considerable local significance, since it belonged to Dr. D.M.
Willens, who drowned in the Peregrine River, 1951. It escaped the
catastrophe and was found, presumably by the anonymous donor,
who dispatched it to be a feature of our collection.'"
I think Enid found the box when she was later straightening out
Rupert's life and sent it to the museum to get rid of the evidence
and to keep old Rupert, as Steve calls him.
Jane
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (8 of 110), Read 114
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 09:53 PM
Jane: I think that's exactly right.
I also found the first two paragraphs of 'Rich as Stink' hysterical. I
say this as the father of a 15 year-old girl-woman.
Haven't finished the book yet, but so far the male-perspective
seems to be primarily from the boys in the first story (and, Steve, I
agree: the communcal silence, with all the family stuff, struck me
off key as to boys of that age; the rollicking down the muddy trail
part could have easily been boys or girls, in my experience).
Secondarily, Kent's perspective in 'Jakarta' is male, although he is
basically clueless within that perspective -- not that Sophie is
much better off, it seems. I liked 'Jakarta' though -- particularly the
descriptions of hapless, hopeless lefties in full, if sagging, bloom.
Knew a million of 'em in the old days.
Anyone find it curious that Munro's characters only have impulses
to copulation and not say, 'Habitat for Humanity' or making large
cupboards full of jam? She seems to have screwing on the brain.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (9 of 110), Read 117
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 10:17 PM
I agree, too, Jane. I think you have that sized up exactly right. In
fact, I think that Alice Munro uses little artifacts that she runs
across as inspirations for stories. She may very well have seen
some little box of instruments like this somewhere. In that story
from Greatest Short Stories of the Century, she obviously used a
book of verse from the 1800's as a jumping off point to spin a yarn.
Dick, as to your last paragraph, isn't this why we're reading Alice
Munro instead of reading that other gal's short stories about
Habitat for Humanity? Am I missing something here?
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (10 of 110), Read 121
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 15, 1999 10:35 PM
I don't know anything about Alice Munro, so if she got picked
because of the sex angle(as opposed to housing policy, say), I say
power to the people!
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (11 of 110), Read 118
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 01:46 AM
And what were you doing around all those lefties, Dick? Were you a
fellow traveler? Or were you Cointelpro (is that the word I want?) I
mean to say, did you ever work for Tricky Dick, as a political narc
perchance?
This discussion isn't making me want to read this book again, but it
is making me want to re-read Open Secrets or one of the earlier
books. I think it's time to go to the library and get a Munro fix.
Theresa
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (12 of 110), Read 120
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 08:46 AM
Theresa: Aside from my attempted romps with Martha, Teri, and a
few others, my past is shrouded in mystery, or an alcoholic haze if
you prefer. I can say, however, that I never worked for President
Nixon, although I did have coffee with him in 1969. Nice fellow. I
can see why the Chinese liked him.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (13 of 110), Read 120
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 11:05 AM
There can be no doubt that Enid didn't mention her suspicion to
Rupert. I think it began as a doubt within herself as to whether or
not to believe Mrs. Quinn's story. (I don't know if I believe Mrs.
Quinn's story!) At the beginning of her visit after the funeral, pg.
72, it says "If it was true-- and didn't she believe all the time that
it was true?-- ", but that section ends with '"Lies" is the word that
Enid can hear now, out of all the words that Mrs. Quinn said in that
room. Lies. I bet it's all lies.' Enid had already said that "Mrs. Quinn
might crack and crack, but there would be nothing but sullen
mischief, nothing but rot inside her."
On page 76 of the paperback after the talk of silence that Jane
mentioned above:
"This was what most people knew. A simple thing that it had taken
her so long to understand. This was how to keep the world
habitable.
She had started to weep. Not with grief but with an onslaught of
relief that she had not known she was looking for. "
I think the relief Enid felt was not just the abandonment of her idea
to confront Rupert with the details of the doctor's death, but the
beginning of a life lived on her own terms with her own values. You
may recall the times that Enid mentioned thinking about something,
and her mother would correct her to say "praying about". Also,
there is the stated fact that she failed to pursue nursing at her
father's request. After his death and her leaving nursing school, it
seemed she was pretty much riding whatever current pushed her
along.
If there was a murder at the Quinn's house, then Jane is correct
again that it was Enid who sent the kit to the museum. On the next
page, 77, it says:
"A house like this, lived in by one family for so long a time, and
neglected for the past several years, would have plenty of bins,
drawers, shelves, suitcases, trunks, crawl spaces full of things that
it would be up to Enid to sort out, saving and labelling some,
restoring some to use, sending others by the boxload to the dump.
When she got the chance she wouldn't balk at it. She would make
this house into a place that had no secrets from her and where all
order was as she had decreed."
Another author would have referred to the kit somehow in this list,
if they wanted the doctor's death solved in the reader's mind. The
only place it fits here is "restoring some to use," a pretty vague
reference if you ask me.
What strikes me about Enid is her constant duty to clear things up.
First her patients, and then the thought to clear up the murder,
and finally this old house. I wish she'd cleared up this mystery for
me!
Did everyone else believe the murder occurred as Mrs. Quinn
described it? I feel a lot of uncertainty. Again, another author
would have confirmed the tale, or not, by relating some incident
that happened at a bridge evening or something (you will recall that
Dr. Willens was Enid's neighbor, and after her father's death she
took his seat at their games). Munro has said many things about
patients at the end of their lives that cast doubt on the story to
me. The only confirmation that he died there was the detail about
the "the pink stuff" that came out of his mouth, and the freshly
painted floor, to cover the stain. But nothing outside Mrs. Quinn's
story serves to confirm the story totally.
Tonya
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (14 of 110), Read 126
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 11:26 AM
I guess I'm Gullible Gertie. I believed the murder. At least until you
people here started putting doubts into my mind.
I've been thinking about the title, The Love of a Good Woman.
Remember the old saying about how the love of a good woman can
save a man. I'm thinking that Enid is going to "save" Rupert, by not
reporting the murder, by getting him to marry her by subtle or
not-so-subtle blackmail, by taking over his house and things and
restoring them and his life to what she perceives as order.
Ruth
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (15 of 110), Read 128
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 12:05 PM
I believe the murder. I also believe Enid wanted to disbelieve the
murder, because what she really wanted to believe was that it
might be possible to consumate some hot sex on Rudy's floor.
And as for clearing things up, as my favorite character on Ally
McBeal says, "Bygones."
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (16 of 110), Read 132
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 01:00 PM
As I said above, I knew nothing about Alice Munro before picking up
this book; I know a teeny-tiny bit more now from a good web site
in her honor:
http://members.aol.com/MunroAlice/reviews.htm
The URL is to a section of the site containing reviews of her work
(however the entire site is worth looking at). The reviews of
'LOAGW' are interesting to me, in that I disagree fairly strongly with
the takes of the reviewers for the NYTimes and the WashPost --
both men. The review from Cavalier (not the men's mag apparently,
unless it's taken quite a turn for the better) was the best, by far, I
thought, and was by a woman.
One of the comments in the Times review that struck me as way
wide of the mark was to the effect, "Munro's work is not
autobiographical." Maybe I don't know what that word means,
properly speaking, but looking at her bio and her stories in this
book, I couldn't disagree more. Here's a quote from Munro, taken
from another, otherwise undistinguished site, which bears both on
the readings and the quasi-accompanying discussion of Martha
Stewart's role in American society over in Salon:
"In twenty years I've never had a day when I didn't have to think
about someone else's needs. And this means the writing has to be
fitted around it. "
There was no attribution for the quote, other than the author so I
don't know when or where she said it. But it's something a good
many of the characters in this book could have said, maybe did
say.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (17 of 110), Read 135
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 01:56 PM
I read this book back in September, which is a practice I will have
to stop since my memory of it is spotty. When I read it, I was
coincidentally visiting western Ontario, and I was struck by the fact
that Munro has captured the terrain of the region so well in her
stories. The lakes, the plains were all as I saw them from my car.
MAP
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (18 of 110), Read 133
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 09:34 PM
Were you drinking to forget?
What were the circumstances of the coffee invitation, and who was
your employer at that time?
Theresa
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (19 of 110), Read 137
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 10:30 PM
Please! Turn off the lights! And not the face, please, please, not
the face!
The Chilblained Lawyer Is Under Heavy Interrogation....
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (20 of 110), Read 138
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Thursday, December 16, 1999 11:24 PM
As I read it, I believed the murder and believed Enid wanted to
disbelieve the murder, for slightly more complex reasons than Dick
stated. After I finished, and looked back over the story, a few
doubts started sprouting in my mind.
Just read Jakarta this evening. Not a lot there, so I'll proceed to
Cortes Island before sleep.
Tonya
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (21 of 110), Read 137
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, December 17, 1999 12:37 AM
More complex than sex on the floor? What could be more complex
than that?
Actually, I found 'Jakarta' to be a very entertaining story. The
image of the party featuring the earnest Pacific Northwest radicals
of the day with the young organization man was perfect, imo. I also
found the character of Kent, in old age and dying, to be arresting
-- traveling from old friend to old friend, perpetually disappointed at
how they fail to measure up to memory or expectation, and
wondering all the while, "Will someone remember how well I look to
my long lost ex-wife?"
Plus the snapshot of the third (at least) wife: "[despite being a
year younger than Kent's daughter there was]...nothing of the toy
wife about her. Kent had met her after his first operation....[A]
serene steady woman who distrusted fashion and irony -- she wore
her hair in a braid down her back. She introduced him to yoga, as
well as the prescribed exercises, and now she had him taking
vitamins and ginseng as well. She was tactful and incurious almost
to the point of indifference."
I know this woman.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (22 of 110), Read 98
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, December 17, 1999 07:36 AM
Dick,
I liked "Jakarta" too, especially for the twist involving the radical
husband.
***WARNING: PLOT SPOILER****
Both wife and mother secretly believe that he is not really dead,
only pretending to be to escape his responsibilities. This seems
rather unlikely, given the fact that there are easier ways
accomplish this, but it says a lot about this guy's supreme
selfishness that the women closest to him think he's capable of it.
The wife at least is well rid of him. It's hard to have any sympathy
for a guy who doesn't want his wife to wear make-up and then
announces to her that he wants to spend the night with some
painted woman who is another guy's mistress. Couldn't he at least
have the decency to do it behind her back?
Jane, regarding the title story, excellent point about the
significance of the optometrist's missing box being given to the
museum by an anonymous donor. I forgot all about that detail at
the beginning. I think that clinches the fact that Enid does marry
Rupert, but leaves him with a permanent reminder that he better
tow the line or else.
Munro definitely suggests it is possible the murder never occurred
("lies,lies"), but I never doubted it. I don't think the dying woman
has the imagination or the motivation to invent it from scratch,
although I do think she enjoys embroidering the sexual details as
she goes along.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (23 of 110), Read 92
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Friday, December 17, 1999 11:41 AM
If I said that I disliked "Jakarta", I shouldn't have done. The story
was surprising and the characters were interesting. I just didn't
have anything in particular to say about it. Another obscure title. I
wondered at Sonje and Kath working until non-personal reasons
made them both leave; much later than this my oldest sister and
her pals were getting out of high school and getting married soon
after, and in very few cases did any of them keep their jobs. It was
pretty near exactly what Munro says-- spend a year nesting, get
pregnant, etc.
Tonya
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (24 of 110), Read 95
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, December 17, 1999 11:45 AM
"Rich as Stink" didn't please me greatly, despite the dynamite
opening paragraphs.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (25 of 110), Read 102
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 02:14 AM
Just remember, Dick, silence can be an admission.
Theresa
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (26 of 110), Read 97
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 08:21 AM
It's been killing me not to get on here and talk about Munro this
week, but school is finally out for vacation! Now, I just have to do
everything I've been putting off for Christmas.
The same quality about Munro that I always find the most striking
in her stories hit me in this collection and that's her absolute
honesty. She's writing from the perspective of a woman who was
coming of age in a very traditional time for women. Most of these
women truly can't spend a day, or sometimes even an hour, not
thinking about someone else's comfort. Some people would argue
that this situation, at basis, hasn't truly changed a lot, but I don't
think that's what is important here. The point is that she presents
that perspective so incisively and cleanly that almost any reader
can see it.
I also love the fact that there are very few villains and no heroes
(that I can remember) in her stories. Both the women and men are
riddled with imperfections. When I first read her stories in the 70's,
I was reading feminist fiction that had lost all literary perspective.
The women were too good and the men were too bad to be real.
Finding Munro was like a breath of fresh air after that.
When Munro combines this honesty with the mysteries in the lives
of seemingly uncomplicated people, I think she forges an irresistable
formula. I just listened to an audiotape version of Open Secrets and
realized that her stories, particularly her last three collections,
probably need to be read repeatedly. I saw things and understood
things on the second time through that didn't occur to me on the
first reading.
And, I lovehaving you all read this one with me.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (27 of 110), Read 88
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 12:01 PM
We enjoy being here reading these with you, Barb. I have been on
the road for a couple of days myself and am very happy to be back
here.
Ann, I could not agree more with you about that scumbag Cottar in
Jakarta! He was one of those guys who can skillfully rationalize
things like sending his wife to have sex with another man (while he
himself undertakes another woman, of course) as all in the service
of the cause. Why does she want to find him again? It seems
apparent to me that she still adores the bastard.
Okay, folks. I have a question for you concerning Cortes Island.
You undoubtedly noticed in the clippings in Mr. Gorrie's scrapbook
that the wife of the guy who burned up in his house was away on
Mr. Gorrie's boat at time. What do you make of that? What story is
being hinted at there? Is it possible that woman is the present Mrs.
Gorrie?
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (28 of 110), Read 89
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 01:02 PM
That was my take on it; and that dad knew about the affair and
committed suicide by kerosene (more common in Canada, I
understand), while Ralph the strangely distant handy-man son
wandered in the woods with apples and bread.
Or maybe Ralph pulled a Columbine High on dad who (we would
have to assume) was an abusive brute, thus driving mom away to
have an affair with Mr. Gorrie.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (29 of 110), Read 93
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 01:07 PM
Steve, that thought never occurred to me, although it is certainly
an interesting idea. The reader naturally wonders if Gorrie and the
guy's wife were having an affair, but the present Mrs. Gorrie is so
incredibly irritating I couldn't imagine anyone involved in a voluntary
relationship with her. But then, for whatever reasons, Gorrie did
marry her, didn't he?
Ah, the plot thickens.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (30 of 110), Read 94
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 01:09 PM
My impression is that Munro doesn't put much excess information in
her stories. If it's there, it's there for a reason.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (31 of 110), Read 94
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 03:33 PM
It seems to me that in her last two books, Munro has gotten more
and more inscrutable, never tying anything up in a neat little
package. It leaves one pondering and mulling over her stories.
For whatever reasons, I find myself more drawn to Cortes Island
than to LOAGW. Maybe because it all seemed more connected and
plausible. I did think the wife on the boat was the present Mrs.
Gorrie. And I didn't think she was so weird. I've known women like
that. I especially liked the way the bits out how young marrieds
first live, and then move on to better digs, was larded throughout.
We really had two stories going here, young newlywed woman and
the Mrs. Gorrie, who knows all the "right" way to do things. I have a
feeling our young protagonist is going to start worrying about mixing
whites and coloreds soon, and stop writing in those notebooks.
Ruth
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (32 of 110), Read 97
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 03:43 PM
Maybe not, though. Didn't happen to the violinist in the last story.
Those last two stories in the book were my favorites; both very
strong, I thought.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (33 of 110), Read 88
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 09:24 PM
Richard,
I really liked the last two stories as well, but I didn't like the ending
of MY MOTHER'S DREAM. I think that Munro should have stopped
the story when the narrator was a baby. It annoyed me that Munro
gave the girl's life story in the last couple of pages. It was just too
rushed.
Jane
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (34 of 110), Read 90
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Saturday, December 18, 1999 09:41 PM
Jane: I'm not sure I care for that technique, either, but Munro uses
it in other stories as well. She moves through time and space at her
own speed on her own whim (much like memory, perhaps), and the
reader just has to keep up. With most of the stories, I would start
reading and after three pages have to stop and say, "Who ARE all
these characters?" realizing that I had couldn't tell mom from
grandma from aunt whois, let alone dad, grandpa, and horny grad
student who was hiding in the basement. After a re-read or two of
the first three pages, and closing my eyes and reciting the
character list until I had it memorized, I could follow along pretty
well. Not sure, however, whether that's her problem or mine.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (35 of 110), Read 86
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 09:05 AM
Finally getting a chance to talk about specific stories...
"The Love of a Good Woman"
I had fun playing around with the meaning of the title. Enid was the
stereotypical "good woman". She grew up being everyone's friend in
high school (but no boy's girlfriend), planned to help others by being
a nurse, kept her deathbed promise to her father that she wouldn't
pursue that career and then fulfilled the role that even family
members often don't want to assume by caring for the dying with
next to no compensation. You don't get much more "good" than
that. When Mrs. Quinn (do you find it interesting that she is
referred to as "Mrs." while Enid and Rupert go by their first names?)
tells her the story of Mr. Willens' death, her instinct is to follow the
same road she's taken thus far in life. She's going to follow the
simple good path, "confession is good for the soul", etc. But, she
manages to turn all that around and convinces herself to focus all
that goodness on Rupert's life, saving him instead...and doing
something about those disturbing sexual dreams in the process. As
I've said here before, I enjoy watching people whose lives have
been plotted between bright lines, who assume all situations have
simple solutions, learning that it may be more complex than all that.
Perhaps for that reason, I particularly enjoyed watching this
process in Enid.
What did you think about her reaction to witnessing her father and
the woman who was on his knee (the ice cream cone incident)? I
loved the irony of using this scene, which Enid's mother convinced
her was a dream, to convince herself that Mrs. Quinn's story was a
lie as well.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (36 of 110), Read 87
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 09:18 AM
"Jakarta"
My favorite scene in this story was Kent in the den of the radicals,
sticking to traditional viewpoints (when he wasn't even sure he
believed them) while the rest of the crowd vilified him in disgust. Do
some of you who were around in the 60's and early 70's remember
those scenes? I do and Munro couldn't have painted it more
accurately, I don't think. Even though it was ugly and
uncomfortable, I found myself smiling at how earnestly they used
techniques that they would heartily condemn in the opposition to
advance their own viewpoints. I'm sure this was not just a
phenomenon of that point in time, but I certainly witnessed a lot of
it then.
My only criticism in this story (hey, maybe I can distance myself
from Munro a bit, after all) is that Cottar is much too much the
villain. As I said earlier, I find that one of Munro's strengths is that
there are no heroes or villains. Cottar seems pretty
one-dimensional, however.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (37 of 110), Read 89
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 09:54 AM
The only male figure in the book with even a hint of dimension to
him is the father/doctor in 'Before the Change'. And even that
character is far off, as if viewed through the wrong end of the
telescope.
Men have such huge effects on the lives of these women, but they
seem to know very little about the men, and often times don't even
seem very interested.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (38 of 110), Read 94
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 10:23 AM
Barb,
Regarding the first story, I found it interesting that the mother
gave her approval for the private duty nursing, but wanted Enid to
promise that she would never marry a farmer. Rupert was a farmer.
I feel quite certain that Rupert's future with Enid would not be
easy. I don't think she would be able to suppress her thoughts of
his guilt for very long. She felt that guilty people must confess and
be punished. He would not go to prison, but I think he would pay in
other ways.
Dick, I agree that the men are very peripheral in these stories.
They are important for the effect they have on the lives of these
women, but we don't see things from their point of view. I think this
is true even in the story "Jakarta."
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (39 of 110), Read 97
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 04:07 PM
I certainly do now see what Sherry was driving at in her initial note
about the men in these stories, just as you all have before me.
I dunno. I still Enid and Rupert are going to live happily ever after.
Enid has a tremendous capacity for good old denial. Things did not
really happen but were only dreams or lies. The ice cream cone
episode to which Barb refers is a prime example of that. She is
going to be able to handle this murder by Rupert in the same old
way.
Cottar was not a one-dimensional villain though, I don't think. For
me he was a three-dimensional scum bag armed with the sincerity
of his conviction that he was liberated.
The main reason I dropped by this afternoon was to confess that
Save the Reaper pretty much defied me. An extremely sad story,
nightmarish in places. I could pick that up. It was very difficult for
me to compute the import of this brush with lesbian sex toward the
end and fit that in. Nobody has mentioned this one yet, or at least
not that I have noticed. I remember reading this one when it
appeared in the mag. A reread has not helped. As with Dick, I think
probably the shortcoming is mine, but is this the weakest story in
the collection maybe?
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (40 of 110), Read 94
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 07:58 PM
I didn't know about that one either. My main impression of the main
character was that she was extremely careless. Maybe the
daughter was wise to keep her distance from the mother who
conceived her during a one night stand in a sleeping car with a
foreign guy she knew she would never see again. Although it was
inadvertent, she certainly took her grandchildren to a very scary
place. Then, at the end of the story, the mother tells the wacked
out girl where she lives even though she is frightened of her. Is this
woman self-destructive or what?
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (41 of 110), Read 99
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 08:00 PM
Also, what is the significance of the title, "Save the Reaper." The
only reaper I can think of is the grim reaper, i.e. death.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (42 of 110), Read 100
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 04:11 PM
My point was not the development of the characters, Dick, but the
villainy. By making Cotter so bad, she made him two-dimensional.
She gives us only sketchy information about many of the
characters, male and female, though I agree that the male
characters are less developed generally. However, even when she
gives us just a little information, there are both positive and
negative actions, thoughts, etc. in every character. Cotter was
just pretty despicable.
BTW, though, as I said, I agree that the female characters are
more developed, I thought that I knew a great deal about Brian,
the husband in "The Children Stay" and Derek in "Rich as Stink."
I still have two more stories to read because I try not to read two
in a row. They stay more separate in my head that way.
Ann, I totally forgot that Enid's mother had made her promise not to
marry a farmer. I've got to go back and see if she actually
promised, as she did with her father, or if her mother just told her
that.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (43 of 110), Read 103
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 04:24 PM
And, Dick, thank you for giving us that Alice Munro website. I've
bookmarked it and just read the NYTimes review of Love of a Good
Woman. Excellent comments there, I recommend it to everyone.
BTW, he doesn't say that the stories are not autobiographical, but
that they don't feel autobiographical. Small distinction, but
important, I think.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (44 of 110), Read 97
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 07:01 PM
I think the thing that impresses me most about this collection, and
the preceding one, is Munro’s propensity for twitching us about in a
direction we never figured the story was heading. In Love of a Good
Woman it turns out the story isn’t about the boys at all. In Jakarta,
there we are, happily inside the head of Kathe, when all of a
sudden we jump forward in time, and we’re with her husband, and
she’s almost offstage. Cortes Island is more of a piece, but in
Sarnia we’re twitched this way and that. Just as we think, aha, this
is what this story is about, Munro forces us into what seems like a
detour.
Ruth
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (45 of 110), Read 96
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 08:37 PM
Ann, your judgment of Eve seems harsh to me. But you know
something? I cannot come up with any logical arguments contra.
The significance of the title? You got me. I am going to quit looking
back though, and drive on to the next one.
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (46 of 110), Read 95
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 08:44 PM
Ann:
It's a modified line from Tennyson's "Lady of Shalott". The original
verse reads:
Only reapers, reaping early
In among the bearded barley,
Hear a song that echoes cheerly
From the river winding clearly,
Down to tower'd Camelot:
And by the moon the reaper weary,
Piling sheaves in uplands airy,
Listening, whispers "'Tis the fairy
Lady of Shalott."
Eve changes it to "Save the reaper" in a conversation with Phillip,
after they drop the young slut off, while she is trying to recall the
lines of the poem.
It' significance? Got me.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (47 of 110), Read 101
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 19, 1999 11:40 PM
Bingo! Did I ever like The Children Stay! This one alone was worth
the whole trip for me. When we read that Pauline and her
father-in-law avoided looking at each other "lest their look should
reveal a bleakness that would discredit others," we know right away
that something is going to give. Not much "hide-the-ball" in this
story, but oh so much wisdom so skillfully conveyed.
Anybody pondering leaving the spouse for the lover ought to read
the paragraph beginning, "Different in kind," as if it would do them
any good, as this story so ironically points out.
The separate little paragraph about the chronic pain of lost children
is superb!
And the thing I found to be perfect in this story: When the children
grow up, they don't hate her. They don't forgive her either.
Really a super story, I thought!
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (48 of 110), Read 90
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 07:39 AM
God, I'm loving these notes, everyone. Would never have found the
"Save the Reaper" reference from Tennyson. Now, I just have to
figure out what she means.
The comments from the NYTimes review of this book keep coming
back to me, that most of these stories swing back and forth in time
from the 60's/70's to the present doing some comparisons and
pondering the effects (ineptly paraphrasing there). Eve, the
mother, is the risk-taker in this family. Even though she's getting
older, she's still taking risks, leaving herself open though the results
could be catastrophic. Sophie (in reaction?) is the careful one with
the conservative husband. I thought the reference to "Blackbird"
school and Sophie saying "You paid for that!" was classic. What a
difference in the choices they were making for their children. Then,
you have Philip, initially the product of his father, giving Eve that
conspiratorial little smile at the end...I had the sense that we had
another risk-taker in the making.
BTW, my favorite lines in this story involved Eve's thoughts about
why she wasn't telling Sophie's husband all the truth about their
experience:
There are people who carry decency and optimism around with
them, who seem to cleanse every atmosphere they settle in, and
you can't tell such people things, it is too disruptive. Ian struck Eve
as being one of those people, in spite of his present graciousness,
and Sophie as being someone who thanked her lucky stars that she
had found him. It used to be older people who claimed this
protection from you, but now it seemed more and more to be
younger people, and someone like Eve had to try not to reveal how
she was stranded in between. Her whole life liable to be seen as
some sort of unseemly thrashing around, a radical mistake.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (49 of 110), Read 89
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 08:32 AM
On 12/20/99 7:39:29 AM, Barbara Moors wrote:
>God, I'm loving these notes,
>everyone. Would never have
>found the "Save the Reaper"
>reference from Tennyson. Now,
>I just have to figure out what
>she means.
>
>The comments from the NYTimes
>review of this book keep
>coming back to me, that most
>of these stories swing back
>and forth in time from the
>60's/70's to the present doing
>some comparisons and pondering
>the effects (ineptly
>paraphrasing there). Eve, the
>mother, is the risk-taker in
>this family. Even though
>she's getting older, she's
>still taking risks, leaving
>herself open though the
>results could be catastrophic.
>Sophie (in reaction?) is the
>careful one with the
>conservative husband. I
>thought the reference to
>"Blackbird" school and Sophie
>saying "You paid for that!"
>was classic. What a
>difference in the choices they
>were making for their
>children. Then, you have
>Philip, initially the product
>of his father, giving Eve that
>conspiratorial little smile at
>the end...I had the sense that
>we had another risk-taker in
>the making.
>
>BTW, my favorite lines in this
>story involved Eve's thoughts
>about why she wasn't telling
>Sophie's husband all the truth
>about their experience:
>
>There are people who carry
>decency and optimism around
>with them, who seem to cleanse
>every atmosphere they settle
>in, and you can't tell such
>people things, it is too
>disruptive. Ian struck Eve as
>being one of those people, in
>spite of his present
>graciousness, and Sophie as
>being someone who thanked her
>lucky stars that she had found
>him. It used to be older
>people who claimed this
>protection from you, but now
>it seemed more and more to be
>younger people, and someone
>like Eve had to try not to
>reveal how she was stranded in
>between. Her whole life
>liable to be seen as some sort
>of unseemly thrashing around,
>a radical mistake.
>
>Barb
>
>
Well -- Barb -- your whole note but especially from your "BTW, my
favorite lines...." are tipping the scales and now I have to get this
book and read this particular story because I think I know one of
these "...people who carry decency and honor around with them,
...." And I agree with her assessment that telling such people things
is too disruptive. I have this situation and I have a battle with
myself -- should I tell things/should I not and what will be gained
and what lost if I tell and what does telling do to the person I tell?
I have to read this story to see what else relates to me -- some of
these have sounded very intriguing but I was trying so hard not to
go after another book right now. I may just put it on the list with 5
stars so I don't forget it -- and I am copying your note as an added
reminder.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (50 of 110), Read 93
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 08:52 AM
Barb,
I said Eve was too "careless". Your choice of words, "risk taker", fits
much better.
The paragraph you quoted implies that the world is a much more
threatening place than many choose to believe. That realization
must have come to Eve with age, perhaps as the result of taking
risks that didn't pay off when she was young. Many, of course, are
programmed to always expect the worst from a very young age.
However, very few of us are risk takers. Maybe that's why Eve
feels "stranded in between." By nature, she is a risk taker, but life
has taught her the dangers of such behavior.
Steve, I thought "The Children Stay" was a very good story too,
but it is hard for me to imagine a woman going off with a lover and
realizing only as an after thought that this would mean giving up
her children. The youngest of these girls was only 16 months old.
Don't you think this is something she would have agonized about
beforehand? Or is that what this story is about -- life makes
choices for us that we didn't intend?
The next story, "Rich as Stink", is also about a mother who leaves
her daughter when she leaves her husband. This strikes me as a
rather unusual theme for stories set in the 60's and 70's, when
mothers almost always got custody of the children when a marriage
broke up.
Karin, the daughter in "Rich as Stink", wants to spend time with her
mother's lover and his wife, not her mother, when she comes to
spend the summer. It seems very important to Karin that the
marriage of Derek and his wife Ann be preserved. Does this reflect
the price Rosemary pays for leaving her daughter?
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (51 of 110), Read 89
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 09:04 PM
Ann, I don't think the loss of her children came an as afterthought
to Pauline. It seems clear to me that she knew to a tee and in an
instant everything she was giving up "when her life was coming
adrift in that moment." Munro only very subtly gives us clues at
first as to just how trapped Pauline felt with this manchild, Brian,
his parents, and the children, too. It is only by her act of leaving
that we finally realize how desperate for something better she was
and what she was willing to pay for it. Of course she doesn't get
something better, but the illusion was too attractive.
I think I can clarify this business about women leaving their children
in the 60's and 70's. Those was still the days of divorce based upon
the concept of fault--extreme cruelty, desertion, adultery, and the
like. Whoever was not at fault for the failure of the marriage got all
the goodies, including the children. Certainly, a woman who took off
with a lover would know right then and there she would never get
the children. This was so with Anna Karenina, and it was so with
Pauline.
Nowadays, with our so called "no fault dissolution of marriage" laws,
it is entirely possible for a woman to do this and still get the
children. In fact it happens quite often. Excuse the lecture, but I
know you are far too young to remember those days.
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (52 of 110), Read 93
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 09:29 PM
This business of women during the 50's (in Canada; don't forget it's
Canada) doing what, by our standards, are avant kinds of social
things is a recurring theme in these stories. The women who try are
all successful in their immediate endeavors, it seems, just unhappy
in the long term. Has Munro written stories about women in the 80's
or 90's, as a point of comparison?
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (53 of 110), Read 94
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 09:36 PM
I know it's Canada, Dick, but I think what I said still holds true. I
certainly have never run across explicitly 80's and 90's stories by
her, but maybe somebody else has.
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (54 of 110), Read 98
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 09:49 PM
The book I have is Reference Guide to Short Fiction. Says here, ". .
.Munro in her stories and novels is offering the portrait of a rural
Protestant society the like of which existed and drew to an end
during her lifetime." This article indicates that the fifties, sixties,
and early seventies are the most recent time periods that Munro
has generally dealt with. Her early work treats women of an earlier
time than that.
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (55 of 110), Read 98
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 09:51 PM
The only reason I emphasize the Canadian aspect is, it's more
Cleaver than the Beaver, socially speaking, in the time and the
place we're considering.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (56 of 110), Read 101
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 09:57 PM
Ah, I'm with you now. Well put, young man.
I was about to drop a Blue Diamond into the U.S. Mails to you just
a couple of days ago when it suddenly dawned on me that I might
lose my ticket if discovered. Sorry, but the thought was there.
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (57 of 110), Read 99
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 09:59 PM
Good point about "fault" and child custody, Steve. I hadn't thought
of that.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (58 of 110), Read 105
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 11:04 PM
Steve: And what a kind thought it was; however, I have it on good
authority from my significant other, that the millennium will be
coming in on wings of blue, with diamond tips. Turns out the family
female doctor is an aficionado of Pfizer's finest from the distaff
perspective, and believes no family should be without, on both
sides of the sheets.
More later, if I live.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (59 of 110), Read 108
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 11:07 PM
And let me hasten to add, your tribute played no small part in the
wife's decision to join in the fun. You should be careful with that
kind of influence over women, however; in the wrong hands, it
could be misused.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (60 of 110), Read 120
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, December 20, 1999 11:52 PM
Just as a point of reference, Steve, I can personally attest to the
fact that California had no-fault divorce in the early 70's.
But I was surprised by how little introspection Pauline seemed to
indulge in before she up and left the kids. I would have thunk it
would have at least given her pause.
Ruth
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (61 of 110), Read 106
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, December 21, 1999 05:49 AM
Munro often writes about women who worked very hard to fit into
their community's concept of what a "good woman" was. Then,
when they are thoroughly nested into that life, they realize that
they are suffocating and want to get out. But, by that time they
often have children who are part of that life...what to do then? Ann
commented earlier that mothers leaving their children is a recurrent
theme for Munro and wondered if it was at all autobiographical. I
have no idea if it is, but I certainly think it's part of that whole
question that Munro keeps investigating.
I thought "The Children Stay" was particularly good as well. Brian
was a very likeable guy. I loved that interchange between him and
his father in which the father was commenting on their old house
and Brian anticipated and one-upped his criticism...after the father
asks what kind of neighbors they have, B. answers "Really poor
people, Dad. Drug addicts". Having had one of those old houses
which my father-in-law detested, I probably especially related to it.
You could actually feel the claustrophobia of living in that situation
though. All that emphasis on getting along with the in-laws,
spending all their vacations with them, Brian's little jokes, etc.
Eventually, I started shuddering and I wasn't even sure why at
first.
At a gut level, the actual thought of the left children is pretty
wrenching, Ann, I agree. My mom died when I was 11 and it was
probably the defining event of my life. I kept aching for those little
girls even more than I felt for the hole it would leave in Pauline.
But, Munro did such a good job of painting the cozy little trap that I
understood how Pauline could have been that desperate.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (62 of 110), Read 108
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, December 21, 1999 07:05 AM
Yes, Ruthie, California and Iowa were two of the early states to
make the switch. Iowa switched in 1970.
Perhaps the fact that both Ann and you feel that Pauline did not
give much thought to the loss of the children until later and the
fact that I am so sure she knew immediately exactly what she was
giving up is a function of our own different perspectives rather than
a function of anything in the story.
Barb, you speak of missing children. That paragraph in The Children
Stay about the chronic nature of that pain is as good a description
of it as I have seen in so few words.
Perceptive of Munro to use involvement in theater as the catalyst
for Pauline bolting. The involvement of one partner in the theater
has been the rock on which many, many a marriage has foundered,
I think.
In the "for what it's worth" department: Munro herself first married
in 1951. (She would have been twenty.) Three daughters. She
separated in 1972 (she would have been forty) and divorced in
1976. Dick, she lived in Vancouver and Victoria, B.C., all those
years. In the same year that her separated from her husband, she
moved to London, Ontario. Munro is her married name. She was
born Alice Anne Laidlaw. She has done a number of biographical
essays, one of which is titled "How I Met My Husband," interestingly
enough.
How old is Karin when she goes up in flames in Rich as Stink?
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (63 of 110), Read 110
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, December 21, 1999 09:19 AM
I hadn't heard of these biographical essays, Steve. I'm fascinated.
Did you find reference to them on the website that Dick told us
about? And, does it tell where to find them? I haven't had a chance
to get back there again.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (64 of 110), Read 116
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, December 21, 1999 09:37 AM
I thought Karin was around 13, but I don't remember the story
saying specifically.
There was some biographical information at the site Dick
referenced. Munro indicates that she had a difficult relationship
with her own mother, who developed Parkinsons when Munro was a
teenager -- 16 was the age given, I think. Mothers can be
emotionally absent, as well as physically gone. The first condition
may actually be more painful for the child.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (65 of 110), Read 102
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, December 21, 1999 05:58 PM
Karin is 11 in this story. It says on the first page "But she would not
look like the ten-year-old who had got on the plane at the end of
last summer, either."
In "The Children Stay", perhaps Pauline didn't really want the
children. In those days, women didn't really have a choice about
having a family. It was assumed that if you were married, you
would have babies. I have a friend who walked away from a
marriage leaving five children. She stayed in touch but they lived
with their father. Everyone seemed happier that way.
Jane
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (66 of 110), Read 111
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, December 21, 1999 07:22 PM
Hold the presses, Barb! I made another mistake! The reference book
is a big one titled Reference Guide to Short Fiction edited by Noelle
Watson (St. James Press, 1994). I purchased it off a sale table in
some little subterranean bookstore in downtown Omaha last
summer, the name of which establishment Ann undoubtedly knows.
I did not have the hang of how it works when I wrote that note
because I. . .ah. . .er. . .had kinda forgotten that I owned it and
had never looked in it. I know how it works now as a direct result of
this embarrassment.
There are no published autobiographical essays by Alice Munro. I
will spare you the details of precisely how that misunderstanding
arose here. It was a multi-faceted confusion. The biographical
rundown on Alice herself that I transcribed was accurate, however.
Great job, Jane! Thank you. I simply missed that. Eleven years old,
huh?
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (67 of 110), Read 110
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, December 21, 1999 09:59 PM
Would that bookstore be Kettersons in the Old Market? It's small,
but it's the only one I can think of that is "subterranean." It's one
of the few independent bookstores to have survived the mega store
onslaught.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (68 of 110), Read 115
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, December 21, 1999 10:54 PM
Yep, Ann. That's it.
Which reminds me that I have been intending to discuss the subject
of the PINK MARBLE facing on the Joslyn Art Museum, but that's a
subject for another thread on another day.
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (69 of 110), Read 121
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 22, 1999 10:21 AM
But Steve, weren't you impressed that they got such a perfect
match on that marble for the new addition?
BTW, my son's high school is next door to the Joslyn in a building
which once housed the state legislature.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (70 of 110), Read 125
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 22, 1999 10:53 AM
I was thoroughly impressed, Ann, and primarily wondering where
one would even look for marble that pink let alone find it twice!
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (71 of 110), Read 111
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, December 24, 1999 10:20 PM
Quite a few notes back Richard remarked favorably about the the
last two stories, Before the Change and My Mother's Dream. I
could not agree more. Alice really did end this collection strongly--a
good kick in the stretch, if you will.
If one has read Cider House Rules, there is a great temptation to
compare it to Before the Change, a temptation I have decided to
resist. This is a beautiful portrayal of a very complex relationship
between a father and his daughter, a family relationship that can
very easily be more complex than any other.
It could have been done for love? Love of whom? Love for that old
bat, Mrs. Barrie? Very tricky to figure this out.
On the other hand I do know the feeling of seeing money thrown
over a bridge or high up into the air. That certainly can bring a
feeling of elation. Love letters thrown up in the air can come down
with a completely different context, too. Very, very perceptive of
Alice, I think.
As for My Mother's Dream, has anyone every lived with a colicky
baby? In fact do people even use the phrase "colicky baby"
anymore? I know we were not seeing a colicky baby in this story in
the sense of a baby ill and in pain. However, the effect is the same.
Sooner or later the constant din, the lack of sleep, the nerves worn
raw will certainly lead one to consider dosing the little thing with
something strong.
Has anyone yet read Alice's story in the December 27/January 3
issue of The New Yorker?
STEVE
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (72 of 110), Read 101
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, December 24, 1999 11:55 PM
A number of years ago I worked with a woman whose husband was
in some variety of the foreign service. They had been stationed in
Greece and Brazil when they had new babies and in both instances
had local house-hold help, a practice which was both common and
acceptable in those days.
In Greece, she was astonished to find that the housekeeper/nanny
dealt with a crying boy-child by changing him, feeding him,
chucking him under the chin, and when all that didn't work, sliding a
nanny-like finger down his diaper and tickling him into quiescence.
When the mother questioned this practice, she was advised, quite
strongly, that it was very, very bad for babies to cry and that this
was entirely proper behavior for a care-giver. She admitted her
skepticism, but also admitted that her boy-children grew up with no
more than a normal interest in either their nether regions or in Greek
nannies.
In Brazil, the she found the nanny practicing another local custom
with crying children: saturating a handkerchief in stove gas and
draping the hanky across the crying child's face, upon which the
sobbing little fellow would gasp a few times and fall asleep. Again,
she was surprised to learn that in terms of local culture, this was
entirely acceptable and that the idea of allowing a baby to "cry
itself out" as we barbarous Americans are wont to do, was
completely unacceptable to the gentle and beautiful people of
Brazil. She also learned that aromatic effects of stove gas were
more than an infantile phenomenon -- that Brazilian roues would
saturate their lapel handkerchiefs with gas and pull the hankies in
mid-dance for quaffs of some variety of hydro-carbon high. I never
knew if the kids grew up to become glue-sniffers.
I have no idea if any of this (aside from the fact of their overseas
stations) is true. I'm only reporting what I was told by a
middle-class woman living in Bethesda, Maryland, in about 1977.
Still, I found it all very interesting. And, more or less, on topic with
the final Munro story in our current collection.
Personally, I never had a colicky baby but did have one with very
serious illness. I can testify to the extraordinarily wearing effects of
an infant's illness, manifested by crying and fussing, on the parents.
Very, very difficult.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is NOT...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (73 of 110), Read 109
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, December 25, 1999 11:52 PM
Thank you, Dick! Gosh, I will be so elated when the holdiays are all
over another time and we can get back to shooting the breeze
about books. Arrrrrgh!
STEVE
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (74 of 110), Read 111
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 12:18 AM
The story of the Greek nanny was, of course, a real touchy-feel
episode. We can only hope that our Christmases will, in the end,
become more Brazilian in nature.
God, I love internationalism.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (75 of 110), Read 105
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 11:03 AM
Interesting discussion on international child rearing practices, but if
we could return to "Before the Change" for a bit---
Does anyone question that the father was carrying on with Mrs. B.?
She functioned as the female head of the household and the father
deferred to her in odd little ways, such as leaving the T.V. on when
her favorite commercials were playing or steering the conversation
away from anything that didn't interest her--which was almost
everything.
My personal theory is that she satisfied his physical needs (for
further explication of the nature of male lust, see Lolita discussion),
and that may be as close as he could get to love. I think the
money was hidden somewhere in the house and she retrieved it
while the daughter went to the hospital. All and all, I don't think the
doctor would have disapproved.
So why did the old doctor perform abortions? Did it have anything
to do with the fact that his wife had died in childbirth? The
daughter implies that it stemmed in part from his need to control
and to make his own rules. I think she recognized this need for
control in her own nature, this need to be always right.
Authoritarian parents tend to produced authoritarian children, at
least in my personal experience.
In fact she explained her decision to carry her own baby to term as
the result of her need to prove she was right and her hypocritical
boyfriend wrong. That rang a bit false to me. Anyone else? Don't
you think the the fate of the baby itself would have played a more
significant part in her decision?
Maybe the daughter in this story learned to bend more. That seems
to be the "lesson" of the last story.
The daughter-narrator says of her infant battle with her mother:
It was Jill. I had to settle for Jill and for what I could get from her,
even if it might look like half a loaf.
To me it seems that it was only then that I became female. I
know that the matter was decided long before I was born and was
plain to everybody else since the beginning of my life, but I believe
that it was only at the moment when I decided to fight against my
mother (which must have been a fight for something like her total
surrender) and when I fact I chose survival over victory (death
would have been victory), that I took on my female nature.
So female nature is to bend rather than break? Does anyone else
find this troubling?
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (76 of 110), Read 104
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 11:51 AM
I could see no sexual content in the relationship between the
doctor and Mrs. B. Perhaps once upon a time, but not at the time
of the story. He was an old man without visible sexual impulse,
living in a run-down and decaying house. The housekeeper hovered
over him, in my mind, more to protect her source of graft than from
any emotional attachment. The doctor performed abortions, in my
opinion, because this small, illegal niche in the practice of medicine
was all that was left to him at the end of his life.
I didn't find the ending of the final story either moving or
convincing. Talking infants was already done in a movie by Arnold
Schwartzenegger (if I recall correctly), and probably better. And
the dichotomy Munro poses here (are women by nature flexible and
therefore without principles?) is a false one, I think, based on her
chosen phraseology. What greater principle could exist than: "I will
survive"? But Munro chooses to have her character dismiss this as
some kind of lesser choice. As I said, I don't find the ending the
best part of the story.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is Back And...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (77 of 110), Read 103
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 12:50 PM
Dick,
The daughter was a university student. Just how old could the old
geezer have been? Shudder--our age? I doubt that the sexual
impulse had been totally extinguished. I agree that Mrs. B. is an
unlikely object of desire, but the older I get the less I am surprised
by unlikely couplings. There truly is someone for everyone. You just
have to be willing to lower your standards.
I saw the abortion business as an occasional supplement to the
doctor's regular practice, not its focus. He seemed to have plenty
of patients. He didn't want the daughter disturbing them by painting
the waiting room, and he told her they didn't like it when she
rearranged the magazines.
I missed something in that last story. Could you please explain
Munro's dichotomy "are women by nature flexible and therefore
without principles?" I don't understand the "without principles" part.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (78 of 110), Read 106
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 01:34 PM
Ann: I'll have to go back and take a look at why my impression as
to these matters was so strong. Fortunately, I closed the office
this week and have the luxury of some time...for a change.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (79 of 110), Read 105
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sara Sauers (stsauers@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 05:59 PM
Going back to a question raised about 'Cortes Island'... (I am a bit
behind you all in this book.)
Okay, I have to admit I was surprised by the various interpretations
of the death of Mr Wild. I not only think that it was the current Mrs
Gorrie on that boat during the fire, but that Mr & Mrs Gorrie set her
first husband on fire so that they could be together. Somehow, as
planned or not, Mrs Gorrie's son escaped. That is the (now) nearly
catatonic Ray.
Doesn't this best fit the darkness in Munro's characters? And, as a
bit of evidence to back me up, Ray is introduced only as 'Mrs
Gorrie's son,' on the first page. And, in the italic 'thoughts of the
bride' that follow the newspaper clippings is this: 'Did you ever think
that people's lives could be like that and end up like this? Well, they
can.'
It's murder they've lived with, I'm sure of it!
This book is a scorcher!!!!
Sara
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (80 of 110), Read 109
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 06:49 PM
Sara,
Oh, I do like that interpretation. It makes everything fit together,
doesn't it?
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (81 of 110), Read 107
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 08:07 PM
I agree, Sara. I think you are right on the money there. In fact it
would be good for me to reread that one now. Did you figure this
out immediately?
I was with Dick on that one at first, Ann. However, you have
shaken my faith. That would be the best way to explain this remark
that he may have done it for love near the end of the story. There
was just was no hint of this earlier though.
I think Alice Munro writes out these stories at first telling
everything completely. Then she goes back and lops out big chunks
of those same stories to make them this ambiguous and mysterious.
I'll just bet that's what she does.
STEVE
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (82 of 110), Read 108
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 08:34 PM
Ann: You asked about a couple of points I raised earlier, and I said
I would look at the stories and try to respond.
First, as to the infant narrator surrendering her principles, I drew
that from the same paragraph I believe you quoted, where she
says:
"To me it seems that it was only then that I became female. I knew
that the matter was decided long before I was born and was plain
to everybody else since the beginning of my life, but I believe that
it was only at the moment when I decided to come back, when I
gave up the fight against my mother (which must have been a fight
for something like her total surrender) and when in fact I chose
survival over death (death would have been victory), that I took on
my female nature."
Those lines, to me, state a compromise, on a fundamentally
important point for the narrator; the first compromise, arguably of
many, that are inherent in "being female", at least in the kind of
female life described by Munro. And it is an essentially practical
surrender: life in lieu of principle. Hence, my comment.
Your second question regarding the nature of the relationship
between the Dr. and Mrs. B required me to look back over the story
a second and third time. And, it's clear that I misspoke about the
semi-retired nature of the doctor, since it is very clear he had a
more extensive practice than the occasional abortion.
My impression on the age of the doctor and the housekeeper was
reinforced by the rereading, partly it turns out because of Munro's
descriptions of Mrs. B (Mrs. B has "a small, withered face", and "old
toothpick bones") as well as other, smaller clues. Thus, the doctor's
breathing is labored and noisy, more like an elderly person; Mrs. B.'s
husband has suffered for emphysema "half his life" which to me
indicates some significant age for he and his wife; Mrs. B observes
she believes the Dr. is "looking poorly", something that sounds aged
to me; and finally, the description of the delapidated and decaying
house and surgery sounded like the abode of the old, after they
pass the point of caring about appearances:
"The waiting-room walls are scuffed all round where generations of
patients have leaned their chairs back against them....[A]nd the
wastebaskets -- they're wicker -- are mangled all around the top
as if eaten by rats. And the house it's no better. Cracks like brown
hairs in the downstairs washbasin and disconcerting spot of rust in
the toilet....It's silly but the most disturbing thing I think is all the
coupons and advertising flyers. They're in drawers and stuck under
saucers or lying around loose and the sales or discounts they're
advertising are weeks or months or years in the past."
All this reeks of old age to me, and not merely the stately and
dignified age I (for example) have reached. My theory would be the
daughter was the product of either a late marriage for the doctor
(around 50 or so) or perhaps her mother died after a late,
menopausal pregnancy.
I know I'm reading a great deal from very few tea leaves here, but
of course, that's all Alice left me.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (83 of 110), Read 107
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 09:46 PM
Steve,
I think you have a good theory regarding Munro's method of writing.
My bet is that these stories aren't nearly as ambiguous to her as
they are to us, although I suspect she keeps alternate versions in
her head that she uses to tease us.
Dick, I am not convinced that giving in involves surrendering one's
principles, although it obviously requires compromise and flexibility.
But there was something about this passage that really grated on
my nerves, maybe because because it struck me as a throw back
to a pre-feminist era. Why did this need to "give in" define the
narrator as a female? Why not as a human being?
You make a good case for the age of Mrs. B. and the doctor. I still
see their relationship as a pseudo-marriage, which at one point at
least was sexual. The doctor deferred to Mrs. B. and showed her
much more respect than he ever granted his daughter, much to her
chagrin. The two seemed so compatible that I rejected the idea of
blackmail, although one could make a case for it. How do you
interpret her hold on him?
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (84 of 110), Read 110
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sara Sauers (stsauers@worldnet.att.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 10:24 PM
Wild Man, interesting idea regarding Munro's writing technique. Even
if she does nothing of the sort, that's pretty much what it feels
like.
The intriguing thing about this is that as I read each story I keep
thinking Munro is leaving too much out and that I won't 'get it.'
When I am finished, however, I feel absolutely overwhelmed by the
information I have taken in. So much so that I have not been able
to go directly from one story to the next in this book without
sleeping off or working off the previous one. What goes unsaid
packs a tremendous wallop.
Regarding your question about the 'murder' in 'Cortes Island,' yes,
that is what I thought from the time I read the newspaper clippings
in the story. That's why I was so interested to read this thread and
see the question asked and discussed!
I think it's great when this happens, and Munro has always been
good fodder for this kind of puzzle solving on this board.
Sara
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (85 of 110), Read 106
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 10:30 PM
Ann & Dick, I read that "female surrender" business as not so much
an innate female characteristic, but one that has often been forced
upon women by cultural and societal expectations.
Ruth
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (86 of 110), Read 111
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 10:51 PM
As for the talking baby, I thought what she gave up was the idea
that she could, or should, achieve anyone's total surrender - even
her mother's. Many men are able to hang onto this delusion quite
late in their lives, very few women (Elizabeth I maybe? Catherine
the Great?) Anyway, I don't necessarily see this "surrender" as a
bad thing - this is how an infant became a social creature, of sorts,
isn't it? I don't think it has anything to do with principle.
I didn't think the doctor and the housekeeper had a physical
relationship. I did think he was very emotionally dependent on her,
in a rather twisted way. And that she may not have been
blackmailing him overtly, but that he may have (even wanted to)
seen potential blackmail. My impression is, because of the nature of
their jobs, many doctors become compassionate for human foibles
and trials, but in a very pragmatic way. This could have been his
impetus to start the abortions, and the housekeeper could have
been his self-inflicted punishment for doing what was not accepted
by his community. As for their age, remember the daughter was
college age, and she is the narrator. So maybe they just appeared
old in her eyes. And the way he lived reminded me of Margaret
Laurence's novels - Canadian's in the fifties living very bleak lives,
both physically and emotionally, even when it wasn't really
necessary.
Of course Mrs. Gorrie (great name, huh?) was the former Mrs. Wild.
I didn't realize there was room for doubt on that one.
I don't buy the theory that Munro chops off parts of her stories.
There is always plenty of information there - she is just subtle -
you must draw your own conclusions, just like real life.
Theresa
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (87 of 110), Read 111
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 11:29 PM
Ann: You state, "I am not convinced that giving in involves
surrendering one's principles, although it obviously requires
compromise and flexibility", and I agree, at least in the appropriate
circumstance. My original point was only that, in my opinion at
least, Munro's character wouldn't have agreed with that
assessment. And Theresa's point is interesting: that some principles
are so repugnant they should be given up. I hadn't thought of that
as one of Munro's possible lessons but it's at least plausible.
And there's no question in my mind that there was a dependency
relationship of some sort between the good doctor and Mrs. B. It's
just that I never felt it or understood it to be sexual -- perhaps an
emotional/financial kind of deal, sans physical aspect, which again
suggests something of the elderly to me.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (88 of 110), Read 114
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 11:57 PM
I never, ever considered a physical relationship between the doctor
and Mrs. B. I never saw one hinted at in the story. I supposed that
he wanted to be as accommodating as possible to her, since she
knew his illegal business. Losing her would have meant finding not
just another employee, but another partner in crime.
Upon finishing the story, I assumed that the doctor had paid
something for her silence, and I assumed he was successfully
blackmailed due to the unplanned return of his daughter. He had
been doing abortions in the evenings for her whole life, and he must
have been slow to adapt to her as an adult in the house now, and
one that he could think about trusting. I guess I assumed he
handed Mrs. B. a check at about the same time he wrote his
daughter the $5000 check.
But now I like Ann's idea that she knew where money was hidden in
the house, and she helped herself to it after the doctor died. I like
it, but it would take a re-reading to see if I can believe it.
Tonya
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (89 of 110), Read 113
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Sunday, December 26, 1999 11:44 PM
It is interesting to come back in and see people complaining about
the baby as narrator. I didn't exactly see it that way, it was an
older person telling a story about when they were a baby, the story
ended with many years capsulized in the last two and a half pages.
But it is interesting because the style of Before the Change really
grated on me; the series of letters to Robin that were never mailed.
I have had this problem before, but I can't name the books or
stories now. My trouble (and maybe it's just me) is that I don't
know anybody who writes letters or diary entries that sound this
way-- like a story, with lengthy conversations, using quotation
marks, almost totally abandoning the addressee after the "Dear R.".
I might have liked the story much more had it been told like the
others, as a short story.
Now, since last week has felt about a month long, it is hard to
remember the last comments I made, but I probably quit posting
during the Jakarta discussion. For the record, I didn't think there
was any question Mrs. Gorrie was the widow either. Suicide is
easier to believe than murder because of the son's immediate
recollection that his father had given him an apple or something,
and sent him out of the house. When Mr. Gorrie shared the clippings
with the little bride, I thought more in terms of "look what we drove
him to" than "look what we did". And I thought that her son Ray
either knew that or felt it, and that accounted for his cold attitude
toward his mother.
The next three stories didn't get much attention, probably because
of Christmas, but I liked them all.
Tonya
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (90 of 110), Read 74
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, December 27, 1999 06:00 PM
Tonya,
I think the story does suggest the doctor loved Mrs. B., although I
may have been leaping to conclusions when I equated love with
sex. The daughter says on the second to the last page "I knew
where the money had gone." To me, it seems obvious that she
meant Mrs. B.
On the last page she says:
"What I've been shying away from is that it could have been done
for love.
For love, then. Never rule that out."
I interpreted this as a tentative explanation (only one of course) of
why her father gave Mrs. B. the money. Did you see this
differently?
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (91 of 110), Read 65
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Tuesday, December 28, 1999 11:47 PM
Ann, When I read the "What I've been shying away from is that it
could have been done for love" line, I was shying away from
traditional love. I guess Mrs. B was never lovable enough for me to
see it that way. Of course, that is not to say I'm right...
Tonya
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (92 of 110), Read 61
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 09:12 AM
How could Christmas keep me away from an outstanding discussion
of Alice Munro's stories?!? I don't know, but it certainly did.
After reading what you all had to say about "Before the Change", I
went back and reread that story. Prior to that, I assumed that Mrs.
Barrie had been blackmailing the father all along and this steady
flow of cash had been the reason he left so little upon his death.
However, a couple of points jumped out at me this time.
After the funeral, the daughter calls Mrs. Barrie to ask her if she'd
like to come back and get a keepsake from the house. When Mrs.
Barrie comes and only gathers up cleaning supplies and the
daughter asks her if there isn't anything else she wants, Mrs. Barrie
is described as possibly chewing back a smile when she says there's
"nothing here I'd have much use for." Then, the nephew's wife picks
her up in a car that was "not the usual car the nephew's wife
drove."
Gorgeous car," I called out, because I thought that was a
compliment both women would appreciate. I didn't know what
make the car was, but it was shining new and large and
glamorous. A silvery lilac color.
The nephew's wife called out, "Oh yeah," and Mrs. Barrie ducked
her head in acknowledgment.
So, somehow Mrs. Barrie has come into new money and lots of it.
This certainly leads me to believe that she found her "keepsake"
when she was left alone at the house after the father's stroke.
And, the emphasis on the lawyer telling the daughter to look
carefully for a hiding place in the house makes me think that there
actually was one. It also fits with that small town way of thinking
that Munro generally describes so perfectly.
As for the relationship between Mrs. Barrie and the father, I hadn't
thought of any sexual possibilities before. I, too, thought of both of
them as being fairly old. I assumed that the father was in his 60's
or 70's. The scene in which the daughter realizes that Mrs. Barrie is
coloring her hair ("Your head's bleeding") happens when she is still a
girl. So, Mrs. Barrie was old enough then to be getting significant
grey hair. I suppose their relationship could have been sexual at
one time. But, I'm guessing that whether it was sexual or not, the
father may have appreciated Mrs. Barrie because she kept her
mouth shut and did her job including the abortion assistance.
But, how to interpret the "for love" then? The implication is that it
was love for Mrs. Barrie and that the money was given to her for
that love. In that case, it wouldn't have been a case of Mrs. Barrie
finding the money, but perhaps that the father had told her where
it was and that she could get it upon his death?
I'm starting to think that one of Munro's classifications could be
mystery writer.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (93 of 110), Read 60
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 11:36 AM
The daughter also toys or at least suggests obliquely, the blackmail
theme, I think. Overall, I put the entire question down to the
essential mystery of the father-daughter relation here. She didn't
understand damn-all about him and vice-versa. I suppose from
Munro's standpoint, it didn't matter much whether it was love or
blackmail -- just that there was an inscrutable tie that the
daughter simply didn't understand.
I'm just glad Alice isn't my mum, if her fiction in fact reflects the
workings of her inner life.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (94 of 110), Read 62
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 11:40 AM
Sara, I'm delighted that you have the time to be in on this
discussion. But, now I'm going to need to reread "Cortes Island" as
well as the other stories being talked about here. I had assumed
that Mr. Gorrie had been the one who had had the affair with the
woman who left the island, but I had also assumed that the
husband had committed suicide. The idea that they had plotted to
kill him is quite a juicy one. I had already been wrestling with the
idea that Mrs. Gorrie was the woman on the island. All of these
ideas fit in with Munro's theme of the layers of secrets beneath
people's seemingly mundane lives, however. I'll be back after this
reread.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (95 of 110), Read 61
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 12:20 PM
Ann, regarding that paragraph in "My Mother's Dream" about
learning what it is to be female, I don't think Munro usually writes
about what she wishes were the state of things, but what she
perceives as the reality. Also, I agree with what Ruth said about
what is innate versus what is imposed by the culture. The narrator
was learning what it was to be female in that time and in that
place. And, Jill's decision to accept motherhood is part of that as
well.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (96 of 110), Read 62
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 03:13 PM
Which of course may explain to some extent why Richard and I,
handicapped by our gender as we are, have floundered a little bit
with these stories. We are doing our utmost to understand this
female stuff though, aren't we, Dick? Giving it our best try anyway.
STEVE
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (97 of 110), Read 65
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 05:10 PM
Dick,
You referred to the essential nature of the father-daughter
relationship in "Before the Change." Of course, we only see the
daughter's side of it, but that father sure could be mean. On page
279, the daughter says that when she told her Dad about the
broken engagement, he replied:
Oh-oh. Do you think you'll ever manage to get another one.
Earlier in the story she describes his expression as follows:
It's as if he's got a list of offenses both remembered and
anticipated and he's letting it be known how his patience can be
tried by what you know you do wrong but also by what you don't
even suspect.
No wonder she had such an exhilarating feeling of freedom after she
turned over most of the money to Mrs. B. I'd want to sever all
connections too. Stories like this make me think I'm a pretty good
parent after all.
Okay, you guys, so I'm the only one who thought about a sexual
connection when reading the story. I must have spent too much
time with Lolita recently. In another lifetime, I worked as a
caseworker for the county. My caseload consisted of elderly and
disabled people and included the downtown wino hotels. That
experience taught me that sex has little to do with personal
attractiveness. Could be it also made me more likely to look for the
dirt in personal relationships.
Ann, not really perverted, in Nebraska
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (98 of 110), Read 63
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 08:37 PM
Ann,
I thought that there was a sexual relationship there as well, so
don't feel bad. I haven't posted about it, because you were
expressing my feelings exactly. I was just being lazy. These other
people are just puritans!!
Jane
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (99 of 110), Read 65
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 09:20 PM
BTW, I was dyeing my hair at 33, and certainly not ready to
become a nun.
Ruth
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (100 of 110), Read 67
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 10:08 PM
Jane,
It's most reassuring to know that there is at least one other
non-Puritan out there.
Ruth, I started coloring my hair in my late 30's. At the time, I told
myself I'd stop when I was 50. Guess I was operating under the
assumption that by that time I'd be so decrepit that it wouldn't
matter any more. Well, here I am at the grand old age of 52, and
I'm still washing that grey away.
Also, like the girl in the story, my kids probably think their parents
are ancient history too. I know I did when I was their age. Time
does tend to change one's perspective.
Ann
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (101 of 110), Read 67
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 10:12 PM
Steve: I've been trying so hard for a distaff viewpoint on these
stories, I dressed up in nylons and a Wonder-Bra just to read 'em.
Some this feminine viewpoint is apparently more than skin-deep,
however.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (102 of 110), Read 90
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 10:45 PM
Frankly Scarlett, I don't understand what you men are finding so
upsetting about this book, but it sure seems to have set you off
your feed. Slightly mysterious, open-ended, heck even
open-middled, the stories are, but I'm damned if I see anything so
mysteriously "feminine" as to preclude any understanding by bearers
of the Y chromosome.
(And Ann, I told myself I'd stop at 50, then I moved it up to 60.
Heck, they had to shave my head before I finally kicked the habit.)
Ruth, in a bit of a snit
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (103 of 110), Read 85
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 29, 1999 11:22 PM
O.K., Ruth, I'll read 'em again in my boxers, and give you the
straight, unadulterated male viewpoint. No more Mr. Sensitive here.
The Chilblained Lawyer Has Slapped On An Extra Testosterone
Patch, But Is Otherwise...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (104 of 110), Read 85
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, December 30, 1999 01:37 AM
Di-ick. You don't get it. I'm complaining that you're reading this with
the testosterone patch. I want you to take it off. Forget the
male/female gig. Just read the stories.
Ruth
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (105 of 110), Read 83
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, December 30, 1999 07:48 AM
Actually, Steve and Dick, I've been overjoyed that both of you
joined in for this read. And, I didn't feel any of this gender reaction
stuff until Steve's note after my comments on the "learning what it
is to be female" paragraph. What was in my note that set this off?
I'm baffled.
Barb
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (106 of 110), Read 85
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, December 30, 1999 09:51 AM
Ladies, Ladies! Let us pretend I didn't say that. Richard and I just
like to roil the waters occasionally to see what floats to the top. I
know that I speak for him, too, when I say that we both have
enjoyed these stories immensely.
Steve
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (107 of 110), Read 46
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, December 30, 1999 09:07 PM
Sir Richard,
I know what your problem is. Those Wonderbras are damned
uncomfortable. They are just a re-working of the old push-up bra
from the 60's. Throw the thing away. Get rid of the nylons and then
you will feel truly liberated. (Am I turning into Gloria Steinem as I
approach my 53rd birthday?)
Jane
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (108 of 110), Read 53
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, December 30, 1999 10:08 PM
Plus, I didn't develop enough of a bust line to really justify a
Wonder-Bra until I was into my 40's. Talk about a late developer.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (109 of 110), Read 60
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Friday, December 31, 1999 12:59 AM
Dick, I think you've somehow missed the entire point of the Wonder
Bra. Now that you have that bustline, you don't need it!
Theresa
Topic:
LOVE OF A GOOD WOMAN by Alice Munro (110 of 110), Read 62
times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, December 31, 1999 01:20 AM
Theresa: It's one of those unfortunate guy things. When you get a
bust line, you need the bra. We never have a firm moment.
The Chilblained Lawyer Is...
|
Alice Munro
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