To: ALL Date: 08/13
From: ACCR69A JOSEPH BARREIRO Time: 2:12 PM
LOVE & SLEEP - John Crowley. Some backgound
material on the author and his work, primarily culled from
various web pages and reference works. No relation to
Aleister, thank goodness, despite his interest in the
history of the occult (Crowley himself claims to be
"basically immune to mystic apprehensions") that is
apparent in his most recent project, AEGYPT, a planned
tetralogy that consists of two completed volumes, AEGYPT
(1987), which a couple of commentators have claimed that
the author actually wished to title THE SOLITUDES for
reasons that are unnecessary to go into at this time, and
LOVE & SLEEP (1994). Crowley, known for taking years to
complete his novels has been working on the third volume,
tentatively titled DAEMONOLOGY. I haven't seen a proposed
publication date for this novel.
Crowley was born in 1942, Presque Isle, ME. He was
graduated from Indiana University in 1964 and worked as
a photographer and commercial artist for a couple of years.
He has also taught courses on utopian literature and
fiction writing at Yale. Since 1966 his "real" job has
been as a free lance writer for films and television
documentaries. A couple of the films and documentaries
for which he has writing credits, none of with which I
am familiar, are 1995's "The Gate of Heavenly Peace", a
film about the Tiananmen Square crisis, "Are We Winning,
Mommy? America and the Cold War" and PBS documentary "No
Place to Hide", "a frightening look at the bomb-shelter
phenomenon of the 1950s". Crowley's first published novel
was THE DEEP (1975). I haven't read this yet; it is out
in Bantam trade as part of a collection, THREE NOVELS, that
includes BEASTS (1976) and ENGINE SUMMER (1979), both of
which I have read and would recommend to literary minded SF
enthusiasts. These were all marketed as genre science
fiction. According to interviewer Richard Gehr, in these
books Crowley "comes across as an ambitious author who'd
overheard rumors about science fiction, then decided to put
the theory into practice. 'That's exactly what it is,'
affirmed Crowley...'I'm not deeply inside the genre.'" His
most noted work previous to L&S was the World Fantasy
Award winning LITTLE, BIG; or, THE FAIRIES' PARLIAMENT,
about which I posted when I first became involved with CR.
I plan to rewrite and repost that review because I think
I could do a better job on it now. The only other author I
would compare him to in terms of literary ability within
the SF/fanatasy genre is Gene Wolfe, though Wolfe continues
to write in the genre and is somewhat more prolific. Though
it is part two of a four part project, LOVE & SLEEP stands
on its own as a novel. I read L&S for the first time in the
spring of '96, and am about one third of the way through on
my second reading. I did read AEGYPT earlier this year and
affirm that it is not necessary to read this volume before
L&S to appreciate it, nor do I see it as particularly
meaningful to read them chronologically. Crowley does a lot
of slipping around time and place boundaries and
perceptions in these books; this is not a plot-oriented
project as such, though I'll be interested to hear where
our CR readers think Crowley is going with his excavations
into Pierce Moffet's rather wooly life and mind. Joe B
To: ACCR69A JOSEPH BARREIRO Date: 08/13
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:24 PM
Thanks for the background information. I am half way
through the book and not ready to post yet. I have a couple
of questions. What do the titles of the sections of the
book mean: Genitor, Inati, and Valetudo? Was Giordano
Bruno Nolan a real person or is he fiction? Also would
anyone be able to post the nursery rhyme about Bobby
Shaftoe? I can't remember the words. Wouldn't it be great
to live in a place called Blackbury Jambs? Jane who is
enjoying this work all the while wondering if Crowley is
poking fun at the reader
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/13
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 9:34 PM
Jane, I'm a little over halfway thru and going slower by the
moment. I think that the sections titles have something to
do with tarot. Joe? And "Bobby Shaftoe went to sea, etc"
is as far as I can remember. I MUST have a Mother Goose
around here someplace. Doesn't EVERYONE have a MG?
Ruth, waiting for things to fall into place
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/13
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 9:35 PM
No, wait Jane, I think it's astrology.
Ruth, into astronomy but not astrology
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/13
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 10:52 PM
I am reading the section "Nati" now. I think Val the
astrologer said that Nati meant the House of Children. This
was when she was talking to Rose (the mother of Sam) about
how there is no House of Love. And most of the questions
from her clients were about Love.
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/14
From: REZG40D KARIN HANCHER Time: 10:07 AM
THe MG is about the only book that IS read on my
Bobby Shafto's gone to sea,
Silver buckles at his knee;
He'll come back and marry me.
Pretty Bobby Shafto!
Bobby Shafto's fat and fair,
Combing down his yellow hair;
He's my love for evermore.!
Pretty Bobby Shafto!
Karin, who loves the fat and fair part!
To: REZG40D KARIN HANCHER Date: 08/14
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 10:37 AM
Karin: Shafto is fat and fair? Hey, I think it's time this
Mother Goose selection was updated for political
correctness. The poor guy can't help his obesity, and the
fact that he's also fair (i.e., treats everyone fairly) is
really beside the point, I think.
Dale, being ironic and wishing a pox on PC-ness
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/14
From: ACCR69A JOSEPH BARREIRO Time: 2:16 PM
Jane - The section titles are references to the Latin names
of astrological houses: AEGYPT included Vita (life),
Lucrum (finances)and Fratres (knowledge); L&S
includes Genitor (home affairs), Nati (romance), and
Valetudo (health and work). These three in general
(believe me there are many interpretations available) refer
to parental home & hereditary characteristics, sexuality &
risk-taking and service & health, respectively. There
is an astrologer named Val in Blackbury Jambs who does
horoscopes and she accounts for some exposition of these
things. The proposed four volumes of AEGYPT will each
consist of three houses: the remainder are Uxor
(marriage), Mors(mortality), Pietas (spirituality), Regnum
(profession), Benefacta (friends) and Carcer(limitations).
An interesting framework.
Giordano Bruno, Dr. John Dee and Edward Kelly are all
indeed historical figures from the 16th century. Very
fascinating tragic characters. Apparently much of
Crowley's material concerning Bruno and the Hermetic
tradition comes from Dame Frances Yates, to whom the author
gives principal acknowledgement in both volumes. Fellowes
Kraft is unfortunately, a fictitious author, for I would
love to read his novels, though I guess we are getting to
within Crowley's. While Crowley is sometimes confusing and
enigmatic, I don't think he's poking fun at us. I think in
this case he just like the idea of a place called Blackbury
Jambs. A quote from Crowley about L&S: "One of the jobs I
set myself is to make it convincing that realistic and
ordinary people are inhabiting fictional worlds where
the miraculous and the unreal and the bizarre and the awful
don't happen--then project them into a world where such
things can happen. The basic idea of the book, beside the
idea of time passing through a gateway,is the Gnostic
mythology that we are really the gods, that human beings
are final, and that the gods who come between us and the
unknown, fore-existing God are really lesser than us and
not our masters, although we have let them become our
masters. The gods create the world by language, by imposing
rules upon us; we discreate the world by language in the
same way and create our own in its stead." I hesitated
before including this quote only because it might put off
some readers with the usually unlooked-for philosophical
intrusion of the author's thoughts on a work; I included
it anyway because I love those last two lines. Joe B
To: ACCR69A JOSEPH BARREIRO Date: 08/14
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:08 PM
Joe, Ruth and all,
Don't I feel silly! I posted that note after reading 250
pages of LOVE AND SLEEP, and then on p. 256 I find the
defintion of NATI and VALETUDO. Val says that the latter
has to do with illness and death. Joe, you did mention that
there were a number of meanings for each term. I still find
some of the names to be startling, like Mike Mucho. This is
a man who is difficult to live with. We all know what
"mucho" means and it is so close to "macho", so I assume
that Mike is "mucho macho".
Karin, Thanks for posting about Bobby Shafto. It is
interesting that Crowley makes Bobby Shafto a girl in this
novel, and we all know that she is not fat. I can't
remember if she is fair. Jane who agrees with Dale about
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/15
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:34 PM
Okay, it wasn't p. 256 but 257 instead, and Valetudo stands
for illness and Mors is for death. Maybe, the third time is
the charm on this. Jane who hit p. 300 today
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/16
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 10:21 PM
Is anyone else reading this novel? I found the discussions I
read today about God (pp. 300 -320) to be very interesting.
I agree with Ruth that this is a "slow read". I can only
digest so much at once in this middle section. There is
certainly a lot to think about. Jane in Colorado where it
was quite warm today
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 08/16
From: REZG40D KARIN HANCHER Time: 11:14 PM
OK, Dale --
Challenge time! What PC terms (ie, short people are
*vertically challenged*) can we substitute for "fat and
Karin, spelling whose name is
always a challenge, let alone prounoucing it (only Ruth
To: REZG40D KARIN HANCHER Date: 08/17
From: ZRPD32A RICHARD HAGGART Time: 1:43 AM
Karin: Let me suggest: "circumferentially gifted and
ultravioletly challenged" for a politically correct
description of plump, sunburned folks.
Dick in Alaska, who tans better than he diets
To: REZG40D KARIN HANCHER Date: 08/17
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 7:38 AM
Karin: A PC substitute for "fat and fair"? Hmmm. I'll have
to give this some thought.
One of my favorites, though, is by the guy who writes the
PC fairy tales. In SNOW WHITE, he describes the ugly
stepsister as being "differently visaged."
"Indeed," he goes on, "she was so differently visaged as
to stop a clock."
Dale in Ala., working on this
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/17
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 9:11 AM
I'm reading this and have just started the last section. I
started out really enjoying it, when Pierce was young. Now
I'm struggling. I think part of my problem is that I'm
scrubbing wallpaper paste off the kitchen, painting and
such, and I'm bone tired, even when I wake up. When this
project is finally finished, and I can think straight, I'll
actually write something about this book. One thing that I
would like to ask though: slight spoiler alert: Is Robbie
real? At first he seemed real, but then he didn't. What do
you think of him? Did Pierce create him? Is he and "angel"?
It seems like the two halves of the book converge
here--meaning the part of the book with magic intrudes on
part of the book without magic. I really like the idea
explored about there being time cross-roads. I've often had
thoughts like the ones Winnie had about choices.
I'm writing online, which is never a good idea in my case. I
promise to discuss this more cogently when I have more time.
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 08/17
From: ACCR69A JOSEPH BARREIRO Time: 3:29 PM
Sherry - That's a good question and close to the heart of
what this book is about as best as I can see it. I will
try to collect some thoughts about this in the next day or
so when I have some free time. I'm on a new schedule at
work and am still making some adjustments so I will be
reorganizing my leisure patterns accordingly (that almost
makes it sound as though I was actually organized in the
first place). Joe B
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 08/17
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 4:35 PM
I'm reading LOVE AND SLEEP too. I liked the early part
when Pierce was young too, then got a bit mystified during
the first foray into Kraft's book, but now I'm getting to
the end of the second section and I'm beginning to be very
intrigued. In fact, I think I'm going to go back and
reread the first part of Kraft's book again when I finish.
And, you're right Sherry, I do best with this when I have
at least a half hour of uninterrupted quiet time to really
concentrate on it.
At first, I was sort of shying away from it thinking that
I never enjoy books in a fantasy genre very much. However,
this book isn't fitting into any cubbyhole very neatly.
It's almost more of a philosophical novel, if that makes
And Jane, I marked that whole section on pages 301
through 304 about God and infinity in the back of my book
to go back and ponder. God as a 9 year old girl had me
smiling, of course. I liked that line that went, "Sure.
If the Author of the universe were nine years old, a
girl-child loving and imperious and jealous. Jealous!
Thou shalt have *no other gods* before me, nosirree.
'Cause I said so."
But, then the infinity stuff requires a bit more thought on
I also really liked the thoughts by Rose Ryder on page
346 about trying to get away from love, "That was what was
hardest, for a heart like hers, not that you could not love
or give love but that you couldn't avoid it, couldn't ever
get out of the standing wind of love all around you, find
shelter from it."
I have a pretty gut-level understanding of what she's
talking about here.
And, Sherry, again, I'm only on pg. 351, but my
understanding was that Robbie is definitely Pierce's
invention to fulfill his own need, his 3rd wish. But, then
I don't think that anything is for certain in this book.
To: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Date: 08/17
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 5:48 PM
SPOILER: Barb and Sherry, I'm sure Robbie is a fantasy. For
one thing, he enters after hitchhiding across the country, a
young man. Later he's 12 years old, isn't he? And he never
interacts with anyone but Pierce, and very little with
Ruth, who also liked the beginning of the book, but who
seriously bogged down in all the alchemy stuff
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/18
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:19 PM
I think that Robbie is a fantasy as well, because when Rose
Ryder came home with him (about p. 340), Pierce checked to
see Robbie's reaction. Rose didn't notice him. He is kind
of like the little girl spirit that Kelley and Dr. Dee
converse with. At first I thought that Dee might be blind
because he says that he can imagine what she looks like.
But then, I decided that they never saw her, they only felt
her presence and spoke with her. I was glad that Robbie
wasn't real because Pierce seemed to be saying that he had
had sex with him. Am I wrong here?
Jane who hopes she isn't reading too much into that scene
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/18
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 11:00 PM
That's what the scene sounded like to me, too, Jane.
Ruth, wondering if she and Jane are a pair of dirty old
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/19
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 8:20 AM
Another dirty ole lady here, guysettes. Speaking of
guysettes, except for Joe, here we are again. I think the
men of CR are really slacking off. I CHALLENGE all you guys
to read this book and give us some real intellectual
feedback. It's not an easy book; it's not about a
dysfunctional family (well, mostly not), it's not about
women being mistreated by men, it's about magic and history
and all sorts of interesting stuff we could talk about.
Sherry getting all foamy at the mouth
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 08/20
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 10:30 AM
In fact, I was just going to post and tell Dale to be sure
and read it. It's occurred to me a number of times that
this is something he would like. It's such a interesting
mixture of philosophy, magic, fantasy, history. In about
the first third of it, I was starting to get defeated but
then these layers start to reveal themselves and I am
And, yes, I do think that Pierce had a sexual experience
with Robbie. I'm still pondering that one a bit too. It's
like his need for closeness confuses that mirky line
between deep love and sex...but then Robbie was the one who
initiated it in that devious way that the girl manipulates
things with Dr. Dee and Kelly (sorry, I don't have the book
right here for her name.)
I've been stalled in continuing with this book by
preparations for everyone going back to school and work.
And, I'm dying to get back to it! Barb
To: ACCR69A JOSEPH BARREIRO Date: 08/20
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 12:16 PM
So. What do people think of this book? I finished it this
morning, and I'm left wondering. I have to admit I don't
really understand it, but that is not to say I didn't find
it fascinating. I know there is much in the mythology and
imagery that went right over my head. There is almost too
much there to know what to talk about. Since the big issues
are SO big, I'll start off by talking about a little issue.
Did anyone notice the names of cars? There were Asps and
Bisons and other creatures that in our present reality are
not the names of cars. The opposite of brand-name dropping.
But after the Big Wind, there was a Tempest. A convertible
that the grownup Bobby took to get back to her old house. If
I'm not mistaken that is really the name of a car. So was
the real-time in the first part of the book an alternate
real-time? And did the Big Wind come and change it to OUR
real-time where there are such things as Tempest
And what about those werewolves? Who was the young werewolf
that got caught in the trap? Was it Pierce?
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 08/20
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 12:49 PM
I noticed the names of the cars, but assumed the author was
just avoiding the use of "brand names", which can be a
sticky wicket. They amused me because they sounded so much
like the actual silly names they give cars. Maybe you're
right, tho, and there's more going on with it.
I found this book very confusing, but it may be partially
due to the fact that the farther in I got, the less patience
I had with the flashbacks into the past, and all that
business about alchemy, etc. First I read them, then I
started skimming them, by the time I got to the last quarter
of the book I was skipping them entirely. They never seemed
as real or immediate as the Pierce story, even if you make
allowances for their being way back in the past. And besides
I was totally confused most of the time about who was who.
I was also a little confused in the Pierce story about who
exactly all these people were, but not to the extent that I
was in the "old" story.
Was anyone bothered by jump from Pierce's childhood, told
with great detail (and beautifully, I might add) to Pierce
all grown up and no indication as to what happened in the
Would anyone like to explain the relation between the two
Ruth, writing online again and probably not entirely
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/21
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:07 PM
Ruth and Sherry,
I have 75 pages left to read. Since I have given myself the
assignment of 25 pages a day to read, that means I will be
finished in three days. I am a math whiz, am I not! I
think I will wait until then to post any more thoughts, but
I have enjoyed reading your notes. It is a strange book
indeed. Jane in Colorado where we just had our afternoon
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/23
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 11:00 PM
Ruth, Sherry, and Joe,
I have been somewhat disappointed with our book discussions
this year. During the last year (I mean the last list,
really), it seems that everyone would read the books and
comment. Now, it seems that only a few of us are reading.
What gives, guys and guysettes? Jane who has ten pages to
To: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Date: 08/24
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 3:37 PM
Jane: I think you're right. The past few discussions here
haven't been as well attended as some others.
As for myself, I just realized this week that I've been
lagging about 2-1/2 books behind the discussion since March
or so. By the time I finish one, the original note gets
NMPR'd and I hate to start a whole new thread just to give
my two cents after so much has been said so well.
My amazing deductive powers tell me that if my work
deadlines stay this rigorous, the only way I can catch up
and get back in sync with the group is to skip a couple of
books. (Skipping the "1/2" will be a little trickier.)
I do know that I enjoy reading the discussions here even
when I haven't read the book, though that's not ideal. We
might be surprised, though, at how many people read our
comments--or print them out for later, when they have a
chance to tackle the book themselves--even when they're not
posting at the time. Just a thought.
Dale in slightly autumn-like Ala., who's looking forward
to (1) catching up on the book list, and (2) catching up
with CRs in Denver
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 08/24
From: FAVB99B JANE NIEMEIER Time: 9:11 PM
I finished (as promised) LOVE AND SLEEP last night. I loved
the GENITOR section of the book and looked forward to
reading more about Sam's family as well as about Pierce.
So, you know that I was very disappointed when nothing came
of this beginning.
I have more questions than answers about this book. First
of all, the names. We have Rose and Rosie. We have Sam,
Pierce's uncle and Sam, Rosie's little girl. Then there are
all of the fairytale names: Bobby Shaftoe, Blackbury Jambs,
Mt. Whirlagig, Mr. Honeybeare. And someone already
mentioned the car names. What does all of this mean? Why
did Sam, the little girl, have those seizures? Was this a
sign of the general malaise in the world? What happened
when the sister opened the trunk? I also tried to follow
the werewolf theme throughout, and I found that it led
nowhere (at least for me). I did find it interesting, in
the first section, that Pierce (or was it the author) said
that werewolves still exist. It is just that when they
change, the fur is on the inside, tormenting the person.
Consider this quote from the beginning of the book (p. 5)
"He once set a forest on fire, so that a woman he loved
could see it burn, a woman who loved fire. Hadn't he?
O God had he actually once for her sake killed his only
Pierce did not have a grasp on reality.
Jane, still thinking about this book which is a good sign
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/25
From: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Time: 1:45 AM
Jane - I am working on this book. I've finished the first
section and just started the second.
My only comment so far is that, when the author writes of
changes in the way the world "works" - and then illustrates
the childhood world of the main character and his cousins,
and contrasts with the later sections - in everyone's
individual life there is such a drastic change in the
working rules for the world, as we go from children to
adults. And he may have been trying to show this chasm in
describing the children's world, their perceptions, the
games they played. Other than that, I cannot so far make
out what Crowley is up to. And from what I read here, it
does not become clear later on.
Theresa - who is also reading Pnin (from the last list, for
goodness sake, for my bus book. What a cute and oh so 1950s
To: NDKB53A THERESA SIMPSON Date: 08/28
From: ACCR69A JOSEPH BARREIRO Time: 3:40 PM
Hey all - Sorry I've been AWOL. Hard drive problems that
have been solved, at least for the time being. Just an
overall scattershot look at some of the things you have
mentioned. First, this is a rather confusing book, and
there are a lot of unanswered questions when you've
completed it (such as just who that trapped werewolf in
Prague might be - this has to be some reference to
Kraft's first novel THE WEREWOLF OF PRAGUE, though he
doesn't explain it yet - I'm sure there will be some
clarification of this detail at least in the volumes to
come, which will describe the world(s) subsequent to the
great wind); it is after all about magic and mystery and
about how our perceptions of reality are shaped by the past
and questions whether the past is shaped by our perceptions
of reality; also it is the second part of a pretty
ambitious tetralogy. Some material that is covered in
detail in the first volume, AEGYPT, such as Pierce's early
adult life, are summarized or are simply mentioned only
briefly in L&S. Pierce is plainly in the midst of some
kind of breakdown; the one thing that actually occurs in
"real" time is that Pierce has left Blackbury Jambs more
or less in a panic to visit his mother Winnie in Florida.
Most of the rest of the stuff is flashback material or
Kraft Fellowe's last novel that Pierce has been reading, a
book that is surely meant to provide us readers with some
clues to what Crowley is trying to do. We can't even be
certain that Pierce remembers as much about his past as has
been revealed to us in the Genitor section of the novel.
What intrigues me is that despite the weaknesses that
Pierce exhibits as his moral character degrades through the
novel, I for one still managed to indentify with and feel
empathy with his plight. The quandary of his
acceptance/rejection of the multiple metaphysical problems
presented and learnedly argued throughout L&S is, I feel,
maintained at a properly delicate tension; I am awed at the
amount of research that Crowley must have done to write
such a book, and not mere regurgitation of gnostic and
hermetic principles, but fairly illuminating and thought
out examinations of their precepts in the context of their
age. Small wonder that he takes years to complete a novel.
We are never certain whether there is any "real" magic in
either our world or the 16th century world of Kraft. As
for Robbie, he was evoked by Pierce as some sort of ker,
apparently for the purpose of leading his conjurer onward
to his ultimate goal, which seems to be to find that thing
which has remained as it was through the changing of the
ages (which may be what Sister Philomel has in her box).
Is there possibly a real Robbie in the world that Pierce
has repressed the memory of or who he at least
semi-consciously suspects may exist? It appears that
others may be manipulating Pierce: witness the revelation
that babysitting Beau the astral traveller and Julie the
apparently airhead New Age publisher and former lover of
Pierce know one another and are discussing his "progress".
Are they talking about his book or his spiritual
development? Near the end it also pretty clear that there
will be a connection between Sam's seizures (possessions?)
and the Christian cult which has captured the malleable and
enigmatic Rose Ryder and for which Mike Mucho has abandoned
his work on Climacterics theory. What's with all this
Rose/Rosie stuff anyhow? Crowley is deliberately very
confusing on this matter; we are as unsure as Pierce just
what is going on. The rose image is constant. The
combination of dog, star, stone and rose is referred to
several times, but I don't have a clue what they mean. The
book by Kraft that Pierce is reading seems to be the same
book that Pierce wants to write, which in turn will be
these books that Crowley has written and will hopefully
continue to write, which is an interesting and enveloping
thought. Crowley said as regards Pierce's struggle
with Eros "Part ... of what I'm telling (is) how obdurate
the past is. It persists and goes on having effects." Joe B
To: ACCR69A JOSEPH BARREIRO Date: 08/28
From: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Time: 4:38 PM
Well if Crowley set out to confuse, he succeeded with me. I
suppose, though, my reaction to this book is governed by my
previously held impatience with metaphysics. This is a book
I never would have picked up on my own, Joe. I like that
the reading list pushes us out of our natural reading
Ruth, wondering what the hell a "ker" is
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 08/28
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 5:41 PM
Ruth: A "ker" is a dog with no fancy breeding. I thought
everyone knew that.
Dale in Ala., with computer problems too
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 08/28
From: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Time: 6:48 PM
greetings CERTIFIED BOOK JUNKIE..
the reason why you thought everyone knew about a 'KER' is
that fact that you have one!!! say hello to TAUPE FOR ME..
from auntie gail...
To: KGXC73A GAIL SINGER GROSS Date: 08/28
From: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Time: 11:29 PM
I thought that was "cur". Or is that spelling simply used
in the derogatory sense? Never saw anybody spell dogs
To: YHJK89A CATHERINE HILL Date: 08/29
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 7:42 AM
Cathy: You're right, of course. I just felt like being a
Dale in Ala.
To: KDEX08B RUTH BAVETTA Date: 09/03
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 12:55 PM
"Ker" as used in L&S was the term used for those personal
ghosts that kept appearing. And maybe "echo" isn't such a
bad word for them. Were they an echo of a person's
imagination. Were they a manifestation of an echo of a
(dead) person's life. Hmmm. Interesting. I think this book
has a lot to discuss in it. Maybe too much. One fascinating
concept, and one that almost obsessed me as a child, was the
fork in the road question. So much depends on one decision
or another. You can get lost in your imagination just
pondering the what ifs.
There is one scene near the end of the book, I think it is a
dream, that I meant to post about. It's been so long now, I
wonder if I can find it.
Sherry who already forgot the main character's name
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 09/03
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 1:25 PM
Hi, Sherry: I've long been obsessed by the fork in the road
question, too. And bizarrely enough, the latest findings in
quantum physics give a lot of credence to the "parallel
universes" theory. In the sub-atomic world, at least, it's
possible for a particle to exist in both "forks" at once.
Why not the same for the particles that make up our bodies?
A fascinating short novel on this theme is THE MAN WHO
TURNED INTO HIMSELF, by David Ambrose, a British
Dale in Ala., who'd love to be able to choose both forks
and cover all the bases
To: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Date: 09/03
From: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Time: 6:11 PM
And just think, Dale, there are forks within forks
within...oh, you get the picture.
To: WSRF10B SHERRY KELLER Date: 09/03
From: MXDD10A DALE SHORT Time: 6:51 PM
Sherry: Yes! Yes! Forks within forks within...
The horror. The horror. Or is it, "The beauty. The
beauty." Probably all of the above, and then some. Looks
like real life is obsolescing the once-magical hall of
Dale, one of whose selves is theoretically in humid,
93-degree Ala., but we're promised high 70s and crisp by
Saturday. Of course, that's just one fork...
To: ACCR69A JOSEPH BARREIRO Date: 09/13
From: NCSH82B BARBARA MOORS Time: 11:09 AM
I finished LOVE AND SLEEP a few weeks ago and haven't had
time to get here and discuss...which takes half the fun out
of the reading these days, I'm realizing. I did enjoy
reading the posts from others as I read. Like most of you,
there was much in this book that I didn't understand. Felt
like I could study it along with some history texts for
days and find layers and layers unfold. This also feels
like a book that could do with a rereading. Unfortunately,
too many other books are competing for my limited time.
However, despite the fact that I felt like I was missing
a lot, Crowley continued to draw me in with the quality of
his writing and the insights. The following quote on
parenting hit me with one of those moments of truth:
"What parents knew about love and couldn't tell other
people, who thought it was a project or an enterprise, a
passion, a contest you won or lost. It wasn't. It was
more like a wind, a steady wind, a wind you could not stand
Also, as I read the book, I grew to have a curious
affection for Pierce, which surprised me. This is not a
character I would have expected to like. However, his
curious vulnerability as he wanders about the world
alternately opening himself up to feeling and closing it
off was hard to resist.
The characters in the story in the past were just as
sadly searching and the parallels were certainly there in
the general feeling they evoked in me though much less
familiar. On a more basic note, I kept feeling sorry for
poor John Dee's wife as she followed him around the world
with their family on his quest.
Crowley's style of writing the way one would talk or
think with half-finished sentences, etc. was also done
quite well, I thought. It didn't distract me and yet felt
Would never have read this without the CR list, Joe,
because I would've dismissed it as fantasy. And, I
would've missed some good writing. Thanks for nominating