Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (1 of 89), Read 101 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Sunday, October 21, 2001 03:49 AM
I promised Beej at 4AM to start a thread for this next
Faulkner -- she is further into it than I but the plan is to
read and discuss it here on the heels of As I Lay Dying
and whatever other Faulkner has recently grabbed her
and other CRs' attention.
I have here the Hasselt Bib copy of the Modern Penguin
Classics (UK) with the following on the back cover:
'A landmark in American fiction, Light in August explores
society in the Souther United States through its central
character, Joe Christmas, who kills his perverted but
God-fearing lover and is pursued by a lynch-hungry
populace.
Burns throughout with a fierce indignation against cruelty,
stupidity, and prejudice...a great book' -- Spectator
The front cover is noted as showing a detail from 'E
Pluribus Unum" by James Kearns, in the National
Collection of Fine Arts, Washington (and that I assume to
be DC although it does not state it here)
Only a few pages in before bed last night but already -- I
am struck by the stoicism of the characters -- though I'm
not sure that's what I mean exactly -- and by the flow of
words -- the long and the short of the sentences and the
words themselves. When I thought about that language
bath at one point I immediately went back to what I'd
said about the other book I am currently reading --
Ulysses - James Joyce and found myself marveling at the
similar feeling both authors had evoked for me.
I have read LIA before -- more than once -- but the last
time was so long ago that I am thoroughly enjoying a
new book -- for the moment at least. There's an anecdote
in there actually -- I intentionally sought out LIA for this
reading with Beej so one library book which I know I've
read previously. Quickly picked up a Coetzee and a
Godwin and checked out -- read the Godwin Friday and at
the very end found some passages which lead me to
think I've read it long ago -- further investigation will be
done -- and the Coetzee -- well, I'd not only read it, it's
on the shelves upstairs. So those two books go back
today and I continue with my reread of one of my own
favorite Faulkners along with Beej and other CR folk!
Dottie
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (2 of 89), Read 96 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Sunday, October 21, 2001 09:01 AM
Thanks for starting this, Dottie.. Actually, it was 4am her
time and 10pm mine..at 4am my time I was sound asleep,
counting sugar plum fairies in the nether world!
My plans to spend the afternoon with this book yesterday
were thwarted by children, so I am only 100 pages into it,
but I have already come away with two BIG observations
concerning Lena...
1.) love is not only blind, its can be stupidly blind.
2.) the pill is a gift from God to protect us from
observation #1.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (3 of 89), Read 95 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Sunday, October 21, 2001 02:38 PM
Oh, my. What a book. This book is much more serious and
psychological than 'As I Lay Dying', in my opinion.
Joe Christmas frightens me. This is a dangerous man.
Cold hearted and scarred from childhood experiences, I
sure wouldn't want him as a enemy. He reminds me of
the sort of dark character one would find in a Hitchcock
movie.
(Is the janitor who worked in the orphanage his father?)
Wow. What a book!
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (4 of 89), Read 86 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Sunday, October 21, 2001 02:59 PM
Don't you think, however, that it's a more conventional
book than AILD? I mean in terms of plot, psychological
interaction, narrative, etc. AILD is unique.
Ruth
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought,
but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (5 of 89), Read 88 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Sunday, October 21, 2001 03:11 PM
I loved AILD. It was just delightful. But this one has much
more psychological meat to sink my teeth in, I think, and I
LOVE that.
These are two very, very different books.
I keep comparing Lena to Joe Christmas..both orphaned
as children, yet Lena is sweet and trusting and Joe is
dark and ominous.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (6 of 89), Read 85 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Sunday, October 21, 2001 04:18 PM
Absolutely. Much more psychological meat. And I like it a
lot. Still, that ride I took in AILD is like no other. And for
that reason I chalk it higher in the list.
Ruth
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought,
but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Albert Einstein
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (7 of 89), Read 86 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Sunday, October 21, 2001 09:15 PM
Joe Christmas' early life reminds me of a Charles Dickens'
novel.
In fact, his relationship with his adoptive father,
McEachern, is so similar to David Copperfield's
relationship with Mr. Murdstone, that I wonder if perhaps
Faulkner 'borrowed' it from Dickens.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (8 of 89), Read 70 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, October 23, 2001 11:59 AM
That's an interesting point about the parallels with David
Copperfield, Beej. The end product is quite different
though, isn't it? Instead of the sweety-sweet mature
David Copperfield, we have what appears to be evil
incarnate.
In thinking about Joe Christmas, I have never satisfied
myself about the import of the fact that he was born on
Christmas Day. His initials are J.C. At the climax of the
novel he is 33 years old. Is he the Anti-Christ or is
something more subtle going on here?
I will restrain myself until everyone has finished.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (9 of 89), Read 67 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, October 23, 2001 10:00 PM
I'll be darned! I didn't catch that tie to Christ at all! Wow!
I'm approaching the half way mark (today was a
'run-all-day' day..just wasn't able to sit and read much at
all) but now your post makes me wonder if Joe Christmas
is crucified at the end of the book!
Is Joe a sociopath? And how was Faulkner able to SOOO
completely take us into the mind of a sociopath without
being one himself, or knowing one well? Is the character
of Joe Christmas based on a real person?
I don't think I've ever met such a complex character as
Christmas in a novel before.
This has to be one of the most compelling novels I've ever
read.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (10 of 89), Read 67 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, October 23, 2001 10:26 PM
Its almost impossible to figure Christmas out. I just can't
seem to 'categorize' him in my mind for some reason.
His two main issues seem to be 1.) his racial background
and 2.) his reaction to women. (This guy has some really
screwed up feelings toward women!)
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (11 of 89), Read 66 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 07:36 AM
One more thought while we're talking of some symbolism.
I keep thinking about the symbolism of windows. Both
Lena and Joe climb out a window as they venture into
new parts of their lives. Is this symbolic for a rebirth?
When Joe first enters Miss Burden's house after 15 years
of a vagabond's life, he enters through a window, and I
wonder if this is symbolic of a desire to enter an
'emotional womb', a shelter, a place of replenishment.
Also, in As I Lay Dying, there is a scene where Jewel
becomes frustrated and starts beating his horse. In this
novel, Joe becomes frustrated and starts beating his
horse. Does this recurring theme occur in other Faulkner
novels? Could this have symbolic meaning, too?
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (12 of 89), Read 61 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 09:25 AM
I'm about 2/3 of the way through.
I caught the Christ references and wondered if JC isn't a
kind of sacrificial lamb. Though his behavior is sociopathic,
I wonder if Faulkner isn't trying to demonstrate the
sacrifice of Joe's soul to the racism and generalized rage
embedded in the hearts of those surrounding him. As a
reader, I abhor his actions while lamenting his lost soul.
JC lives a life of acceptance from his earliest days in the
orphanage. At no time does he actively engage with life
through believing or being proactive. He fights any
impulse to connect or engage in life. I get the feeling Joe
is a lost soul, who never learns to take solace in his
fellow man. I think the yearning is there, but the skills to
do so are non-existent. Though he has the potential of
living a loving kind of life, like Christ, he does not have
the environment that would nourish that kind of life.
My reaction to Joe is a kind of aching horror. What chance
did he ever have? Unlike Copperfield, there was no one
at any point in his life, to teach him how to connect to
mankind. I think Faulkner did a fine job of writing a
monster with compassion.
K
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (13 of 89), Read 60 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 09:34 AM
I'm fascinated with the constant references to light, dark,
and shadows throughout the novel. So many times, Joe
sees the light coming from the homes of the white people
and the shadows in the streets of the blacks. He's
terrified while walking the black neighborhoods, probably
because he knows how they are hated by the whites and
doesn't want to be associated with the blacks for that
reason.
Yet he suspects he doesn't belong with the whites,
either. His anguish is palpable, and he uses his affairs
with black women as a kind of self punishment and his
affairs with whites as a kind of debasement of the white
women. Joe doesn't know whom to identify with, so he
expresses that uncertainty in his relationships. How awful
to not be comfortable in either society.
K
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (14 of 89), Read 62 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:26 AM
There has been some yack around that Joe Christmas is
some symbol of the South and its problems at the time. I
can't believe that Faulkner set about creating Joe
Christmas with something like this in mind. Certainly
though, he gave a great deal of thought to the problems
of the South and the race thing.
Joe Christmas is complicated. I assume that he did have a
black father because he believes that. Whether he
actually did or not makes little difference if that's what he
believed. As Kay says, there can be no doubt about his
complete alienation from the society around him.
Actually, that goes in spades for all the main characters.
They are all outsiders. Gail Hightower is an extremely
important character and an outcast in the community.
Lena Grove, the Madonna character, is an outsider.
Joanna Burden is an outsider.
Note that we have another Faulkner novel here that
focuses on journeys as did As I Lay Dying.
Beej, to say that Joe Christmas's attitude toward women
is screwed up is an understatement, and it is a
fascinating thing to consider and discuss. However, that
must wait until you read about his relationship with
Joanna.
We have not even scratched the surface of this novel yet.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (15 of 89), Read 60 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:51 AM
While I'm at it, I did want to mention a scene early in the
book that affected me greatly. Y'all have undoubtedly
already read it. It is that scene where Joe is hiding in the
closet eating toothpaste, the only sweet thing he can
get. He witnesses those two having illicit sex. He's caught
and thinks he's going to be beaten. He gets a dollar
instead.
I do not think this guy's a sociopath according to the
dictionary definition. Rather, he is purely and simply a
product of his own experience.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (16 of 89), Read 56 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:27 PM
You people are making me want to pick up this book and
read it again!
And my TBR pile is so high. Life is full of dilemmas.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (17 of 89), Read 60 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 01:17 PM
My God, you can almost touch Joe's pain. Kay, a feeling of
'aching horror' is such a great description of the feelings
evoked for Christmas.
Steve, was that business with witnessing the dietitian's
elicit love affair, and her reactions because of that, the
beginning of Joe's tremendous terror (I don't know what
else to call it) of women?
I am at the part where Joanna Burden has told Christmas
she wants him to go to a 'negro' law school and he is
horrified that it might become common knowledge he is
half black.
Is all his hatred, all his suffering and anguish a result of
this black/white heritage?
I don't really think Joe is a sociopath. I just don't know
how to categorize him. Then again, I don't think Joe knew
how to categorize himself, and this might be what was
the biggest problem of all for him.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (18 of 89), Read 64 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 01:20 PM
I do know we are only beginning to scratch the surface
here. But there's just so much going on, I'm really
struggling to grasp all the psychological meanings and
'underpinnings'!
I don't know if its even possible to get the full meaning of
everything with only one reading! (Which is a good
reason, Ruth, for you to re-read it.. so you can HELP ME!)
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (19 of 89), Read 56 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 01:51 PM
While I'm at it...when Joanna told Joe that she wanted
him to attend a negro college, Joe beat the crap out of
her. Do you think Mr. McEachern's repeated violence
toward Joe, especially when Joe could not memorize his
Bible lessons as a child, may have 'conditioned' Joe into
believing that violence was a natural response to
another's inability to understand him?
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (20 of 89), Read 58 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 03:03 PM
This is far too simple an explanation, but I will throw it
out anyway. Joe Christmas is half black and half white in
a society that makes very clear distinctions about the
roles of blacks and whites. So obviously, he belongs to
neither group. Part of what is going on is that one side of
Joe rebels against the other side.
Example. Joe takes up with the white prostitute and lets
her in on the fact that he is half black. When she is not
repulsed by this knowledge, he knocks her around. It's as
if the white side of him is outraged that she is not loathe
to have sex with him after she knows that.
This mixed race status makes it difficult for him to accept
anything from anybody. That's only part of what's going
on, but it is a part, I think.
This all gets very bizarre with Joanna. He lives in the little
cabin, like a slave cabin, on her property. After the
window, he comes in through the back. She leaves food
out for him. She whispers "negro" in his ear when they're
having sex. Whew! Very weird relationship there! Gives
me the heebie-jeebies.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (21 of 89), Read 62 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 03:12 PM
And wasn't that quite the reaction with the little black girl
in the silo when Joe was a teenager..did he kick her
because he looked at her and saw his own 'black blood'
or did he kick her because she having sex with white
boys? I think, possibly, this was when his inner turmoil
with his racial heritage began to really meld somehow
with his sexual feelings.
He had to leave the orphanage when he was little
because the dietitian told the Mistress of the orphanage
that he was part black. He had to go to a negro
orphanage..Somehow, I think this is all tied up with his
bizarre feelings toward women.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (22 of 89), Read 57 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 05:03 PM
The only loving females Joe knew as a child were the
Alices that tended to him. Yet they would disappear
without a trace, and Joe learned early on to not trust any
feelings of security when it comes to women. I think
that's one reason why he spurns Mrs. McEachern's offers
of help. He understands McEachern's rules, but not Mrs.
E's. attempt to become an ally.
He and Mr. McEachern had a very strange understanding.
After Joe's refusal to learn the catechism, Faulkner writes,
"There was a very kinship of stubborness like a
transmitted resemblance in their backs."
Later, he further describes their relationship: "He seemed
to recognize McEachern without a surprise, as if the
whole situation were perfectly logical and reasonable and
inescapable. Perhaps he was thinking then how he and
the man could always count upon one another, depend
upon one another; that it was the woman alone who was
unpredictable." Chapter 7
As to Joe's murder of Mrs. Burden, it is important to see
the parallel with the catechism punishment. The first thing
McEachern does after the child awakens is to force him
into prayer. It's possible that some of the helpless rage
Joe felt as as eight year old carried onto Mrs. Burden
when she insisted on knelt prayer. Faulkner spends a lot
of time on the indentations from the knees in both
scenes.
Also, Joe was outraged and terrified to be classified as a
Negro. He knew how blacks were treated. He was equally
horrified at being part white. So, he felt he could not
belong to either. And Mrs. Burden wants him to pray
about it?!
K
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (23 of 89), Read 67 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 05:21 PM
Maybe I misunderstood this murder of Joanna. I thought
she had said they would both be better off dead, and
that it was, or so Joanna thought, by mutual agreement
that they die that night, a suicide pact. She had a pre-civil
war loaded pistol and she had actually pulled the the
trigger but it didn't fire.
I do have my doubts however, that Joe planned on dying
too...unless he thought he was going to slit his own
throat.
I do think Joanna thought they would both die..there
were two balls in the pistol.
AS for Mrs. McEachern, I think it just absolutely enraged
Joe to feel any tenderness toward a female. I think he
felt threatened by that, so when she began to treat him
with love, he greatly resented the intrusion on his
feelings.
Kay, are you saying you think Joe had fears of
abandonment when it came to women? I hadn't thought
of that in regards to Mrs. McEachern, but I think you're
right!
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (24 of 89), Read 73 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 24, 2001 05:24 PM
I think Joanna's intrusion on his feelings infuriated him,
too. Last time that happened, with the waitress Bobbie,
he was not only beaten by the men in Bobbie's life, but
also abandoned because of his mixed heritage.
Steve, about this whispering the word "Negro" into Joe's
ear during love making..Wasn't there something said
about how her father was raised to believe in two
things...the Bible and the Negro? I wonder if religion and
the black man had become intertwined in Joanna's mind.
When she would think of making love with Joe, and then
think of God's law, she would say "Not yet, God. Not yet."
She wasn't ready to surrender Joe for God. But, maybe,
she considered the mantra of 'negro, negro' a sort of
spiritual and emotional 'purification'.
But the idea of sleeping with a negro was probably a
HUGE turn on for her, too.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (25 of 89), Read 58 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 06:34 AM
I'd forgotten about the pistol, Beej. I'll have to re-read
that section.
I'm going to try to finish LIA today.
K
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (26 of 89), Read 56 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 07:59 AM
Kay, there's sooo much in this novel that I really believe
its impossible to take it all in with one reading. I totally
missed the abandonment issue you pointed out, not to
mention all the common threads between Christmas and
Christ.
I should finish this today, too...tomorrow at the latest.
Would you be interested in reading Absalom, Absalom!
with me next?
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (27 of 89), Read 57 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 09:40 AM
I think you both are doing extremely well with this difficult
novel. Exactly what happened when Joanna is killed is
difficult to decipher. I do think she herself had in mind a
suicide pact. It's possible that Joe acted in self-defense. I
need to reread that, too.
Your analysis of this Christmas/Burden affair is great,
Beej. On the one hand Joanna equated Negro with
salvation. On the other there is no doubt that she was
transformed into a nymphomaniac in her forties after a
virginal past and wallowed in that. Her whole idea that
Joe should become saved, acknowledge that he was
black, and then join her work was her solution for this
dilemma, I think.
I found what I had been looking for. These thoughts of
Gail Hightower contemplating Protestant music:
Pleasure, ecstasy, they cannot seem to bear; their escape
from it is in violence, in drinking and fighting and praying;
catastrophe too, the violence identical and apparently
inescapable. And so why should not their religion drive them
to crucifixion of themselves and one another?
This novel is certainly not one praising the Protestant
religion. The people in this novel who think--Gail, Joe,
Joanna--cannot seem to simply accept life. Rather, they
are slaves of abstract, absolute concepts. Race and
religion. Those two ideas are all intertwined and certainly
don't serve them well.
The one who doesn't think and simply accepts and enjoys
life is Lena. Earth mama. We don't see her doing a
helluva lot of praying. The birth of her child is the only
place where I see any light in this August.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (28 of 89), Read 58 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:47 AM
It means a lot to know I'm somewhat on the right
thought path with this novel. Thanks.
I hadn't considered this murder as an act of self defense,
mainly because he had the knife with him in the first
place. But now I wonder if he knew this was the chosen
time for the suicides to occur. I'm going to re-read this
section, too. I think they had agreed that the next
meeting would be the time for this, but cannot remember
if she had left him a note to come to the house that night.
If so, and he had no intention of committing suicide, why
did he bother to go? I'm beginning to think that this was
his perfect opportunity to commit a cold blooded murder
and justify it in his heart with the notion that it was 'what
she wanted'...(sort of like Anse and that trip with Addie's
body.)
Beej, Earth Mama
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (29 of 89), Read 51 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:02 AM
But wait a minute, Beej! Don't take my word as the
gospel. I'm not the arbiter of the meaning of this novel.
Your ideas are as good as mine.
It seems to me that Lena just wades into life without any
real thought traversing her little brain. She seems
oblivious to her own disgrace as an unwed mother for
example. There's not a religiously or racially bigoted bone
in her body. It is so interesting to have a heroine who is
such a dumb bunny.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (30 of 89), Read 50 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:20 AM
Joe's attitude toward women.
Wouldn't it be fair to say that if Joe is the victim of
anything, he is the victim of his Grandfather Hines and his
foster parent McEachern's religious fundamentalism?
Those two convinced him that he was among the damned
from the outset. He came to embrace that damnation. But
here's where I get fuzzy. He is damned because of his
racial mix, and somehow in his mind this racial mix has
everything to do with sex. . . .
Come to think of it, I guess it does.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (31 of 89), Read 54 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:33 AM
That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out..how
race/religion/sex all became so blended for him..Actually,
sex and religion have always been blended, so its the
race thing that's puzzling, at least to me, but when you
really think of the women in his youth and childhood it
clears it up just a bit...the dietitian...witnessing her affair,
having to leave the orphanage due to his race as a
result..the little black girl in the silo...he was repulsed by
whatever she signified in his mind..again, race and
sex...Bobbie, his lover, she abandoned him because of his
race.
I think its interesting that of all these women, Joanna
seemed to have the same blend of race/sex/religion in
her psyche as did Christmas. No wonder she was such a
threat to him!
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (32 of 89), Read 53 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:37 AM
Wait a minute! Wait a minute! Not just sex. FEMALE
sexuality. That's what he thinks has damned him in
religious terms. (I had an epiphany there. Forgive me.)
In Joe's mind if he is already damned, he can do sex as
much as he wants. It's the sexuality of his partners that
bothers him, the source of his doom. Joe should have
been gay.
And isn't it interesting that his grandparents try to
convince Hightower to claim a homosexual relationship
with him to give him an alibi?
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (33 of 89), Read 51 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:40 AM
Oh my gosh, you're right! Its female sexuality! he's fine
with his own sexuality,..he had no problem visiting
prostitutes (except with the one who wasn't put off that
he was black). But every time he became involved in a
sexual relationship with a woman, somehow his race
came to play in it and it snapped back to slap him in the
face.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (34 of 89), Read 49 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:46 AM
And, following this chain of thought, wouldn't it stand to
reason, that if this melding of religion/sex/race caused
him so much anguish and became so abhorrent a part of
him, that recognizing this same blend in Joanna would
make him abhor her also? Even to the point of wanting
her dead?
This might have been a symbolic killing of the part of
himself that caused him the most anguish.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (35 of 89), Read 50 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:49 AM
He should have been gay, or Faulkner should have tried
to fix him up with some cute cow!
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (36 of 89), Read 50 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:48 AM
"Bitchery and abomination," in old Hines' words. (Had
that underlined.)
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (37 of 89), Read 53 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:50 AM
Absolutely, Beej. That's why he slit her throat so violently
that her head was barely left attached to her body. And
then he tried to burn her.
From his point of view, she turned out to have the
absolutely worst combination of traits:
1. She was religiously dogmatic;
2. She loved rather than detested blacks;
3. She got into the sex thing belatedly but big time with
him.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (38 of 89), Read 48 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:54 AM
I had forgotten the ferocity with which he slashed her
throat. My God, what hatred.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (39 of 89), Read 51 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:58 AM
There. We're damned near ready to co-chair a graduate
seminar on Light in August. We'll be talking about gritty
stuff, not some hifalutin literary theory.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (40 of 89), Read 45 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:03 PM
So, this worst combination of traits he recognized in
Joanna, was the very same combination of traits, within
himself, that was destroying him.
How symbolic was it that he just about severed her head
rather than stabbing her in, lets say, her heart? Do you
see any special meaning in that?
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (41 of 89), Read 43 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:08 PM
In his biography of Faulkner, Joseph Blottner claims that
Faulkner had heard a story in his youth about a black
man who very violently slit the throat of a white woman,
essentially mutilating her in this fashion, and was
lynched. The theory is that the violence and mutilation of
this is what bubbled around in Faulkner's brain and
inspired this whole novel later.
And by the way in the early drafts of the novel, there was
no Lena story. Faulkner added that as a finishing touch.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (42 of 89), Read 43 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:11 PM
Oops! You itemized your worst trait list! And Joe's worst
traits differ, yet each is tremendously tied to Joe's psyche
in its own way.
So darned much to explore..and we haven't barely
touched on Hightower yet!
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (43 of 89), Read 43 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:14 PM
That's really interesting to me to hear that Lena's story
was belatedly added, because I recognized early on in
this reading why a character just as Lena was very, very
necessary.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (44 of 89), Read 44 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:18 PM
The novel would be too bleak, too black, too hopeless
without her. Good ole earth mamma. The real salvation of
the species. Don't think too much, don't be too hard on
yourself, get on with life, and make babies.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (45 of 89), Read 48 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:26 PM
I think she also, because her childhood circumstances
were so similar to Joe's, served the purpose of telling the
reader not to be too hasty in blaming Joe's problems on
his early life experiences. She also showed, by contrast,
just how much this racial business played in his life.
But I do believe she lightened this story..can you imagine
how dismal this would be to read without her character?
i think of her as the flip side of the coin from Joe.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (46 of 89), Read 46 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:36 PM
Perfect observation, Beej.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (47 of 89), Read 49 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:41 PM
Wow, just when I've been thinking that book discussion
around here has been kind of in the doldrums I get up
this morning and find 40 notes in the CR section alone,
including this great string here. Keep going!
Er, but just one thing folks....sex and race. Of course
they're linked in Joe's mind. Anyone know of a way to mix
races other than sex?
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (48 of 89), Read 41 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 01:23 PM
oh, man, Ruth! That just brings up another thought I
have rolling around in my noggin!
Joanna was PREGNANT! She was pregnant when Joe
killed her!
(There are so many circles within circles within circles in
this book, it can just about make you dizzy!)
Joe might have somewhat confused Joanna with his own
mother when she was pregnant with Joe. I don't think he
was altruistic enough to want to destroy this baby in
order to prevent it from going thru the same horrible
experiences because it was of a mixed race, I think he
might have been expressing RAGE toward his mother for
first, having sex with a Negro, and second, creating a life
that would suffer immeasurably because of that.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (49 of 89), Read 47 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 01:52 PM
Was she pregnant? Or did she confuse menopause with
pregnancy? (Could one confuse menopause with
pregnancy? This is not in my area.)
And perhaps one could make the argument after all that
Joe was an avatar of the three-pronged problem with the
society that Faulkner lived in as Faulkner saw it--religious
fundamentalism; an absolutist and unrealistic view of
race; and a profound confusion about and
misunderstanding of female sexuality apparently resulting
from the first two.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (50 of 89), Read 46 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 01:55 PM
I've heard it happens, Steve.
Ruth, not speaking from experience
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (51 of 89), Read 45 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 02:00 PM
I guess it makes little difference for the discussion if she
thought she was and Joe did, too.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (52 of 89), Read 48 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 02:09 PM
There have been many, many change of life pregnancies,
so it sure is possible to confuse the two, especially back
then when the only certainty came with time. I don't think
either Joe or Joanna were certain themselves. But, it was
a huge concern for Joe.
Much to think about with your last paragraph, Steve.
Especially when we see the outcome of how not only Joe,
but also society dealt with this.
(I liked that 'three pronged problem' description, Steve. It
reminds me of Satan's pitchfork and falls right back into
the anti-Christ idea!)
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (53 of 89), Read 49 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 02:13 PM
I haven't even finished the novel! I probably should
spend less time on here and go finish the danged thing!
I'm really anxious to find out more about Hightower..
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (54 of 89), Read 48 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 02:36 PM
Gail Hightower is critical. Get outa here, and get busy.
See you later.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (55 of 89), Read 46 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Thursday, October 25, 2001 04:42 PM
Well -- just to clarify -- Joe didn't know that it was the
appointed time for the suicide idea -- HE HAD NOT READ
THAT NOTE -- it kept saying -- he didn't read it -- he didn't
read it -- so what was in that note? We don't know -- but
Joanna is sitting in bed with both barrels of that old gun
loaded and ready -- bang she shoots Joe and bang she
shoots herself -- only it didn't quite happen that way. I
have only skimmed here but I am 2/3 through and have
discovered an entirely NEW book -- yes, I did say I've
read this at least twice previously. The last time was so
long ago I don't even KNOW when it was. As I said -- I
have read an entirely NEW book this time -- and am
loving it!
Dottie
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (56 of 89), Read 43 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 08:21 AM
Dottie, I thought the note he refused to open was one
she sent previous to this suicide pact. I believe there was
one final note on his cot and this one he did read.
On the night of the murder, he had not been to the cabin
since early morning and had no idea if there was another
note waiting for him there. He didn't know if she was
waiting for him..waiting to die...that night.
But there is something that bothers me..
Joanna had asked Christmas to light the lamp. When he
did this, he laid the razor on the night stand. It was then
that she pulled the pistol from under the blanket. I don't
understand why, if she intended to kill him, she hesitated
long enough for him to pick up the razor. There has to be
a reason that Faulkner tells us:
'his hands laid the razor on the table.'
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (57 of 89), Read 42 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 10:14 AM
I think I can answer my own question from the above
post..she DID try to shoot him and the pistol misfired!
This is really beginning to sound like a self defense case,
to me.
Which makes me wonder...would a black man in this
period of time, who kills a white woman in self defense,
be exonerated, or still held accountable for the death?
Maybe Christmas really was crucified for the sins of
others.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (58 of 89), Read 48 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 10:59 AM
Would a black man in this period of time, who kills a white
woman in self defense, be exonerated, or still held
accountable for the death?
Beej, pal, there are many questions concerning the novel
that require a lot of thought. This question is not one of
them.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (59 of 89), Read 47 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 11:39 AM
Yeah, It was a pretty dumb question, wasn't it? But how
difficult to admit ugly truths..or as Faulkner put it, right
here within this novel:
it is a happy faculty of the mind to slough that which
conscience refuses to assimilate.
What a travesty.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (60 of 89), Read 58 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 01:58 PM
Beej, you make me giggle.
Don't you think we need to rephrase your last comments?
Why don't we say how sad it is that Joe's ethnicity made
any difference whatsoever? That way we avoid the
appearance of making a judgment as to the relative
merits of black versus Hispanic ancestry. Otherwise, I fear
that our views expressed here could be misinterpreted.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (61 of 89), Read 65 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 02:02 PM
Well, I'm always happy to make you laugh, but maybe I
should clarify what I meant.
I simply meant I don't think that he would have suffered
so deeply had he been thought part Mexican. Or am I
wrong in believing that prejudice of that time was less
severe toward the Hispanic?
Thanks for pointing out to me that what I wrote could be
misconstrued. I meant what I said only in relevance to
how that would have affected this character in this book
in that era.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (62 of 89), Read 59 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 02:15 PM
Okay then. I see. In that case and keeping in mind your
italics, yes, it's a damned shame he wasn't Mexican. But
then we don't have a novel, do we? I mean, there is no
indication here that Joanna gave a hoot one way or the
other about Mexicans.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (63 of 89), Read 59 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 02:18 PM
On second thought, let's just move on to something else.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (64 of 89), Read 56 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 02:36 PM
oh, damnit..I'll just delete that post to prevent any
misunderstanding.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (65 of 89), Read 50 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 02:38 PM
Don't delete it, Beej. You're making a point. Just amend it
a tad.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (66 of 89), Read 43 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 03:14 PM
Beej, you have a horrible time discerning when I'm
kidding you. Relax. Just remember this rule of thumb. I am
never serious.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (67 of 89), Read 48 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 03:26 PM
And while we're floundering a bit, I wanted to throw out
something else. Last time I read anything about it, Alice
Walker was persisting in her refusal to teach any
Faulkner in her literature classes, insisting that he is a
racist author.
Now, as Felix can tell us, when Faulkner was off holding
court at the University of Virginia in his later days, he
certainly did make some troubling public statements
about race and the South. Perhaps these unfortunate
utterances are what upset Alice Walker.
As for the works themselves, I don't see how anyone
could read those that deal directly with race as anything
but a depiction of the tragedy of slavery and its progeny.
This one certainly does not glorify the likes of Percy
Grimm, for example.
Moreover, in terms of character, nobility, and humanity,
Faulkner's black characters compare very favorably to his
white ones--setting aside Joe Christmas, who is a very
special case.
In short, I guess I would like to read more or hear more
from Alice Walker on this subject. I am not understanding
something.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (68 of 89), Read 51 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 03:18 PM
Too late, Ruth....but I really was trying to make a point. I
just didn't express myself very well.
Actually, and in a way to move on, this presumption of
Christmas' Black heritage caused him nothing but a life of
misery. And who presumed it? His so called God fearing
grandfather.
What a piece of work HE was. He caused three
generations of hell for those in his family, mostly in the
name of religion.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (69 of 89), Read 49 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 03:28 PM
Steve, kidding or not, you had a valid point. The way I
had phrased that could have been misconstrued. But, I
think the point Faulkner makes by including this
discrepancy about Joe's heritage should be thrashed out
and examined.
In a way, I think he might be saying truth might not mean
a hill of beans compared to impressions and beliefs, and
how those alone can have dire affects on peoples' lives.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (70 of 89), Read 53 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 03:42 PM
Man, would I love to know what Walker considers
troublesome racial utterances. As for being a racist
author..if anything, this book speaks volumes concerning
the atrocities of racism. At least to me as a newcomer to
Faulkner, it does.
I hope Felix comes in here and tells what all Faulkner said
in this regard.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (71 of 89), Read 61 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 04:24 PM
Sara Sauers, isn't there something about this in the last
part of Blottner's autobiography? Is there an index in that
thing?
Beej, as I recall, these were some pretty specific
statements about his views of the inferiority of the black
race not too long before his death.
I do know that earlier on Faulkner advocated that the
movement toward black civil rights in the South ought to
be undertaken slowly and cautiously. He had a great fear
of the violence that he felt would certainly erupt. Of
course this was in the late fifties before the Civil Rights
Movement, as we came to know it, Martin Luther King,
and all that. Frankly, at that time I don't think it was an
entirely unreasonable position to take. Of course this
same "go slow" attitude was completely unsatisfactory to
the Movement later in the early sixties.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (72 of 89), Read 65 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 07:49 PM
I'm really sorry to know he expressed those views about
the inferiority of any specific race. It makes me sad. It just
goes to show genius is no guarantee against ignorance.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (73 of 89), Read 56 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 08:34 PM
I think we have to recognize that even genuises (genie?)
are products of their time and place. Nor are they without
faults.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (74 of 89), Read 51 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, October 26, 2001 09:53 PM
I've been reading some of Walker's comments concerning
Faulkner and he apparently did have some offensive
beliefs about the African American. This is what she said
about teaching Faulkner to her students:
'Unlike Tolstoy, Faulkner was not prepared to struggle to
change the structure of the society he was born in. One
might concede that in his fiction he did seek to examine the
reasons for its decay, but unfortunately, as I have reamed
while trying to teach Faulkner to black students, it is not
possible, from so short a range, to separate the man from
his works.'
So, I gather by this, its not the novels she most objects
to as much as the author's personal beliefs.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (75 of 89), Read 37 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Sara Sauers stsauers@att.net
Date:
Saturday, October 27, 2001 12:04 PM
In response to Steve's inquiry about Blotner (Faulkner's
biographer), no, I don't see any reference to Walker's
"issues." It's a huge book, however, and I only took a
quick look.
There are some interesting comments about LIA, and I
will try to find time to post some of them later -- or to
hand the book off to Steve.
Sara
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (76 of 89), Read 37 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Saturday, October 27, 2001 09:10 PM
I would love hear what Blotner has to say about Faulkner
and especially Light In August. (I presume this is the
same Blotner..[how many Faulkner fans by the name of
Blotner can there be?]...who was Faulkner's good friend
while he lived here in Virginia.)
Hightower confuses the hell out of me. (in fact, that entire
section at the end of the book confused me...I need to
reread it.) Is it that he lived in the past? Lived in the
shadow of his grandfather's supposed glory, to the point
of sacrificing his own life?
How sad that when he finally re-entered the present, and
provided Christmas with an alibi, it did no good.
Christmas didn't die because he killed Joanna..he died
because he had sex with a white woman...right? Isn't
that really why Grimm killed him?
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (77 of 89), Read 46 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Saturday, October 27, 2001 09:15 PM
(A chick book....Hahahaha!)
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (78 of 89), Read 40 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Sunday, October 28, 2001 09:21 AM
I might be going off the deep end, but I keep toying with
the idea that this entire novel is one of symbolism. But,
as a believer that all fiction really exists only in the mind
of the individual reader anyway, I'm going to 'play' with
this idea.
I wonder if Joe is symbolic of mankind, of humanism, the
bi-racial issue really symbolic of thinking and living in
terms of black and white, and the difficulty we go through
dealing with all the 'gray' areas that most of us really live
in...if Percy Grimm represents society and its
unwillingness to accept our imperfections.
Is each character really a symbol of human emotion?
Byron Bunch of hope; Lena, trust; Grandpa Hines,
rage...and Joe, bewilderment, anguish and the inability of
self-acceptance....on and on with each character.
As I said, just an idea I've been toying with..
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (79 of 89), Read 38 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Sara Sauers stsauers@att.net
Date:
Sunday, October 28, 2001 09:46 AM
Beej, yes, Blotner spent some time as a professor at the
University of Virginia. The two are pictured together in the
biography - Blotner looking extremely proud of his photo
opportunity. The "About the Author" blurb now (in 1991,
anyway) places him at the University of Michigan.
The edition I have of Faulkner: A Biography is a
one-volume condensed version of Blotner's full 2-volume
bio. Still hefty - it comes in at just under 800 pages.
Sara
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (80 of 89), Read 28 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, October 29, 2001 01:01 PM
I once read an article about Faulkner that while at U.Va,
he attended a college sports practice..possibly soccer. A
student, unaware that it was Faulkner, approached him
and asked him to act as a temporary referee or some
such thing.. Faulkner did this and another faculty
member..possibly even Blotner but I won't swear to that,
asked the student if he was aware that he had asked a
Nobel prize winner to do this. The student was horrified
and blubbered out an apology to Faulkner. Faulkner not
only 'pooh-poohed' the apology, but also became very
involved with U.Va students' sports after that.
My understanding is that he had a wonderful relationship
with the kids at U.Va.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (81 of 89), Read 30 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, October 29, 2001 03:10 PM
I'm beginning to question my belief that Lena was
relatively unaffected by her early childhood.
So many of the characters isolated themselves and
seemed to have a downward spiral only after they
removed this self imposed isolation. It seems the sh**
only began to hit the fan once they became involved with
others.
But Lena, despite her search for Burch, and despite
whatever alliance Byron feels toward her, seemed to
maintain an emotional isolation.
Joe's nemesis was that he felt everything so deeply. I
don't think Lena had that problem.
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (82 of 89), Read 30 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Monday, October 29, 2001 06:33 PM
Just to keep things honest here -- I did finish Light in
August yesterday -- and as I said more than once up
there -- it was as though I'd never read this before -- I
loved the experience just as much as ever though most
likely for entirely different reasons.
I've pulled some bits out which jostled my gray cells as I
read.
"Man knows so little about his fellows. In his eyes all men
or women act upon what he believes would motivate him
if he were mad enough to do what the other man or
woman is doing."
Sounds like something I've said myself often enough --
though not in quite that way. I think I've even expounded
on this theory here overoften periodically over the years
{G}. It struck me and stayed with me.
'Because always,' he thinks,'when anything gets to be a
habit, it also manages to get a right good distance away
from truth and fact.' (Byron)
"One wall of the study is lined with books. He pauses
before them, seeking, until he finds the one he wants. It
is Tennyson. It is dogeared. He has had it ever since the
seminary. He sits beneath the lamp and opens it. It does
not take long. Soon the fine galloping language, the
gutless swooning full of sapless trees and dehydrated
lusts begins to swim smooth and swift and peaceful. It is
better than praying without having to bother to think out
loud. It is like listening in a cathedral to a eunuch
chanting in a language which he does not even need to
not understand."
I thought of the Tennyson and other "old" poets in the
poetry threads as I read this this time around -- and felt
it touched upon what some of us have said -- that poetry
and the rhythm and flow of the words and pauses are
often like being within a spell -- like the chanting of those
monks/eunuchs -- I also found it a sad peek into the loss
of the religious area of his life that Hightower had
experienced -- and his replacement of it with poetry
seemed quite appropriate.
The part which I found perhaps most disturbing was the
description of how Grimm somehow took on the aura of
authority -- even to the extent that the people were
whispering that he was in charge and was specially
appointed and the sheriff had no control as a result -- the
importance of the words "grand Jury" in setting this
mysterious power into motion -- it gave me pause to view
the idea of symbolism attached to certain processes and
the role it plays in the end results. This also led me to
contemplating how this phenomenon may be in play at
this time in the ongoing decisions and reactions to the
September 11 attacks.
I found a lot more weight in LIA this time around I am
afraid. But I definitely did not find anything less about it --
it is still one of my top books of all time -- perhaps more
so than before.
Dottie
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (83 of 89), Read 31 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, October 29, 2001 07:38 PM
Dottie, why did Christmas hit Hightower with the chair?
I figured his grandmother told him to go to Hightower for
protection, but why did Joe attack him?
Joe hit his adoptive father with a chair, too. And, because
he thought he killed McEachern, he ran and kept running
for 15 years. He was running again when he hit
Hightower.
I wonder if there's a connection.
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (84 of 89), Read 27 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Tuesday, October 30, 2001 07:57 AM
Beej -- you ask hard questions, girl! I'm not at all sure --
other than the fact that he was pursued at the point
where he finally arrived at Hightower's and may have
thought that had been the plan all along -- he had set
out unsure of the truth of the offer even though the
grandmother had talked him into trusting it/her. I'm fuzzy
about a lot of that end stuff -- the Hightower and Joe
interaction and the Hightower sections on what
happened afterwards.
BUT none-the-less -- I have a theory and it comes from --
that book I mentioned up in my opening post which I put
aside to read LIA again -- Joyce's Ulysses. AGAIN -- this
happened due to my feeling of the similarities of
response to language which I was getting from both
books. When I again opened the Ulysses, I found the
marker around p.200 and as I began to reread a bit and
start onward -- I found I was in a section where there is
a discussion ranging over the works of Shakespeare and
who wrote what and where the characters fit -- members
of William Shakespeare's family and circle of
acquaintances and which characters are drawn from
these people and which actions and characters are
representative of the author.
I think Christmas is acting as on an underlying and
all-pervasive motivation or impetus in which the sin which
he perceives within himself -- that black and white -- is
seen as the sin which others before him committed as
well -- it repeats and increases somehow until he acts
out some violence. Killing Joanna, hitting the people with
the chairs.
Now here is a quote from Ulysses -- I think it fits --
"--Why? Stephen answered himself. Because the theme
of the false or the usurping or the adulterous brother or
all three in one is to Shakespeare, what the poor are not,
always with him. The note of banishment, banishment
from the heart, banishment from home, sounds
uninterruptedly from The two Gentlemen of Verona
onward until Prospero breaks his staff, buries it certain
fathoms in the earth and drowns his book. It doubles
itself in the middle of his life, reflects itself in another,
repeats itself, protasis, epitasis, catastasis, catastrophe.
It repeats itself again when he is near his grave, when
his married daughter Susan, chip off the old block, is
accused of adultery. But it was the original sin that
darkened his understanding, weakened his will and left in
him a strong inclination to evil. The words are those of my
lords bishops of Manooth: an original sin and, like original
sin, committed by another in whose sin he too has
sinned.It is between the lines of his last written words, it
is petrified on his tombstone under which her four bones
are not to be laid. Age has not withered it. Beauty and
peace have not done it away. It is in infinite variety
everywhere in the world he has created,in Much Ado
About Nothing, twice in As You Like It, in the Tempest, in
Hamlet, in Measure for Measure, and in all the other plays
which I have not read."
A response -- "--The truth is midway, he affirmed. He is
the ghost and the prince. He is all in all."
Stephen continues -- "He is, Stephen said. The boy of act
one is the mature man of act five. All in all. ...bawd and
cuckold. He acts and is acted on. Lover of an ideal or a
perversion,.... His unremitting intellect is the hornmad
Iago ceaselessly willing that the moor in him shall suffer."
I found myself relating this last to the sin of Grandfather
Hines and the daughter and then Joe -- and the cycles
through which these things go. Here are the folks on a
day in Dublin discussing these ideas from the time of
Shakespeare drawn and written forth in such splendid
detail of language that it held up for those Dubliners and
holds up for us -- and here is Faulkner utilizing these
same universals of the repetition of sin and the influence
of evil upon the actions of mankind and here we are still
pondering them all.
Now -- Steve -- I want to pick a small bone with you --
Lena -- is NO dumb bunny. She may be a representation
of the force of good within all humans -- to trust -- to put
her faith in the eventual good of all things -- to accept
and simply to continue to do what she must and can do
while taking into herself whatever is given to her by --
fate? the world? other humans? God? I resent this
concept being labeled as tied to a dumbbunny. If this is
so -- perhaps we need more dumbbunnies in the world.
{G} I'm only half serous here --- but I do think this was
her role here -- and I think Beej has it well-pegged that
Lena is most definitely the ballast to the dark areas which
are explored within the character of Joe -- but for pure
evil I would put Burch at the top as he enacted all of his
treacheries with a deliberateness which far outstripped
that tied with Joe's actions -- Joe is constantly torn
between the two opposing arenas of good and evil, black
and white (and I am not so sure that the evil is always
pictured on the Negro side and the good on the white
side -- thus I am in agreement that I see no way for folks
to read these works and come away with any racist label
attached to them.
Okay -- I'm done rambling. Still I was totally amazed to
step directly back into Ulysses and a section which
seemed tailored to the ideas lingering from Light in
August! Too strange sometimes!
Dottie
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (85 of 89), Read 39 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, October 30, 2001 08:58 AM
Dottie, I think Lena had a 'learned helplessness' about
her. More of a 'numb' bunny, rather than a 'dumb' bunny.
She also had a unshakeable faith in God that carried her
through her tribulations. She didn't need to worry. She
simply accepted that God would provide.
I found Lena Grove to be a fascinating character. The
book begins with her story and ends with her story. (How
interesting to me that Faulkner would make a female,
especially a female such as Lena, the 'Alpha and the
Omega', so to speak, of this novel!) She and Joe have
many similar experiences..both orphans, both raised by
religious fanatics, both escaping through windows, both
travellers...to mention a few. Yet, throughout the entire
book, they never meet.
We've touched on various similarities between Joe
Christmas and Christ. But, couldn't the character of Lena
be seen as an analogy to Mary, the Mother of Jesus? And
Byron Bunch to Joseph?
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (86 of 89), Read 27 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:46 AM
Yes, Lena is a fascinating character -- more so in the
context in which we encounter her, though, which says to
me that Faulkner was one devilishly clever writer to key
this "afterthought" understory to the main events of this
dark tale of Joe Christmas to this quiet -- nearly not there
woman. Amazing juxtaposition of two threads of writing.
As I said earlier -- I certainly found no LESS in this book
than at any of my earlier encounters with it. I'm not sure
though I'd even give you that learned helplessness -- I
would have to go back to the early life of Lena and
decide.
I do think the comparisons between Lena and Joe are
strong -- and I can also understand and see the religious
connotations. I'm not sure where we go with Lena as
Mary and Bunch as Joseph -- think back to my own
question about Burch being more seriously evil than even
Joe Christmas as he contemplated and used and worked
his evil deliberately. Joe seemed seized by evil-doing
periodically even when he had set out for other points --
dragged back into it by a force almost -- beyond his own
logical control. And Burch is that baby's father -- Burch is
God? I don't like THIS scenario. Maybe I need more time
to think this idea out. Or maybe it will fall into place next
time I read this -- I wouldn't rule that out.
So much in such a fine package -- my initial response and
my response still to the book in its entirety.
Dottie
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (87 of 89), Read 28 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, October 30, 2001 11:24 AM
Well, Dottie..Burch as God? I don't know about that but I
suppose if this is a valid observation on my part..this
analogy..it would speak volumes of Faulkner's view of
God...Distant. Untrustworthy.
By the same token, an analogy of Christmas to Christ
would follow the same reasoning..do we say then that
his racially mixed blood father, a vagabond circus worker,
is also an analogy to God?
Lena, pregnant, travelling..giving birth in a lowly
shack..tended to by a man who is haunted with thoughts
of loving a woman not a virgin, and because of this love,
accepting an infant not his own. I dunno, Dottie..I think
there really might be something to my Lena/Mary,
Byron/Joseph idea.
Actually, what made me think on these lines was the
scene where the grandmother holds the new born infant
and becomes confused, thinking Lena was Milly and the
baby was Christmas. (If 'Christmas is symbolic of Christ,
then Lena must be symbolic of Mary' sort of thing...)
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (88 of 89), Read 30 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, October 30, 2001 12:02 PM
The reasons--and I think there are more than one--that
Joe hits Hightower with a chair are complicated. I don't
pretend to understand this myself.
Part of it may be that Joe does not have the capacity to
differentiate between Hightower and McEachern, both
religious men of God but completely different. Also, he
has this immense, even pathological, pride that causes
him to reject any understanding or pity because he feels
threatened by it.
That's the best I can do, and admittedly it is not very
satisfactory.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (89 of 89), Read 30 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com
Date:
Tuesday, October 30, 2001 12:11 PM
Steve -- gives us something more solid than what I came
up with on this -- there is so much emotional, mental
anguish entangled with any choice or decision which this
man has made over the years.
I do think the religious aspect is one which blocks his
acceptance of Hightower just as that aspect changed the
course of his troubled relationship with Joanna Burden.
Dottie
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (90 of 93), Read 21 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 31, 2001 12:44 PM
Before we leave this novel I'd like to understand
Hightower a little better than I do.
Steve, you say he is a critical character, and I know his
story is a prominent one, but I think I'm missing
something about him.
I know Christmas dies at his home; I know he delivers
Lena's baby.
But there HAS to be more.
Is it the tie to the 'Old South', and how that tie affects his
life, that I should be centering on?
Is this symbolic of how memories of the 'Old South' (and
by Old South, I mean pre-civil war) have affected other
characters in this novel?
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (91 of 93), Read 20 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Wednesday, October 31, 2001 01:25 PM
Yes. It seems to me that Faulkner is demonstrating
something about the South's romantic vision of and
fixation on the war with Gail Hightower. It is clearly not a
good thing--a trap that makes it difficult to get on with life
in the here and now. This is a remarkable thing for a
southern writer to be saying.
This "heroic" grandfather, it turns out, was actually killed
while trying to steal chickens.
It appears to me that Hightower starts to break out of
this after attempting to help Lena and Joe, but I don't
know whether he does.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (92 of 93), Read 21 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, October 31, 2001 01:36 PM
Okay, Thanks.
So, is it safe to presume there is a point in the fact that
two of the major occurrences in his later life have to do
with death (Christmas') and birth (Lena's baby)? In that
with these, his old ways have died and new ways are
forthcoming? And the fact that he says he is dying and
yet we don't know if he does die. Maybe he is speaking of
dying to his old thoughts (especially in the acceptance
that this grandfather did not die a hero.)
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (93 of 93), Read 21 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Wednesday, October 31, 2001 02:52 PM
No, thank you. I never thought of it that way. Very
interesting.
The end result of the juxtaposition of the stories of these
three people--Lena, Joe, and Hightower--is pretty
remarkable, I think. The whole is greater than the sum of
its parts.
Steve
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (94 of 96), Read 10 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
S.F. Strahan
Date:
Thursday, November 01, 2001 04:55 PM
I finished Light In August last night (and I'm still behind
as I notice that you all have started a Sanctuary thread. )
I found the notes posted here on LIA very interesting and
thought-provoking.
Someone, I think in the AILD thread, suggested that
because of Lena LIA might be considered a chick book.
Lena is an important character in the book, but she is not
a viewpoint character and her story actually conprises
very little of the book. The main portion of the book, some
300 of a 500 page total is complete consumed with Joe
Christmas and his crime. Lena's story is sort of tacked on
to the beginning and end of that. This book is gritty,
violent and totally dominated by male viewpoints, male
characters and male actions. No, not a chick book. :-)
In some ways, LIA is sort of a psychological thriller. It has
a compelling page-turning quality, with suspense,
violence, and psychological underpinnings propelling it
along at a rapid clip. Authors of comtemporaty pot-boilers
could learn a thing or two from the pacing and plotting of
this book.
I don't know about anyone else, but I picked up a couple
of echos of another book in here. The description of Joe
Christmas' flight and actions after the murder reminded
me of the pursuit of Mink and him hiding out after the
murder in The Hamlet
And (I may be going way out on a limb here) Lena sort of
reminded me of Eula Varner Snopes. True, Eula exuded an
exotic sort of sexuality that Lena doesn't, but in both
cases the young women are protrayed as being very
self-contained. They have a profound affect on men
(menfolk help Lena, but womenfolk are less kind as is
indicated early in the book) and they possess a sort of
power over men. They are both calm and self--possessed.
They both become pregnant by men who flee and yet they
placidly continue their lives as if nothing untoward was
happening (Eula is married off not because she is upset
about what has happened, but because others are.)
Lena doesn't seem to be a bit put out about not being
married. She is very calm and patient. Like Eula she gives
the impression of being an inexorable force of nature; she
goes after Burch very matter-of-factly after waiting a
reasonable amount of time. (You can run but you cannot
hide!)
I don't think Lena is dumb. I think she simply follows her
own protocol and whether or not the father of her child
fulfills his obligation is beside the point to her. She held
him to his word and made a good-faith effort to locate him
so that he could be with his child. I don't think she was all
that shocked or surprised that he turned out to be a
scoundrel who ducked out on her again.
She just struck me as being very self-contained,
self-sufficient (emotionally, I mean; she did depend on the
kindness of strangers for food, shelter, etc.), and
self-possessed. She is a powerful woman, not a victim
(and if you doubt this, read the ending of the book again.)
Likewise, Eula Varner Snopes in the Snopes trilogy held all
the cards--and she knew it. She appeared as a sort of
passive embodiment of desire in The Hamlet but by the
end of the trilogy you see clearly that she is not a passive
non-entity, but a powerful woman.
Faulkner gives us plenty of portraits of women who are
beaten up, beaten down, and worn down both by life and
by men (around whom Southern life revolved), but he also
paints interesting portraits of enigmatic powerful women
who appear to be passive vessels of faithless man's
passion, but are in actuality strong and self-possessed.
[SNAP---the sound of the limb I went off on breaking off]
I'm enjoying this discussion.
Now I'm off to hunt down a copy of Sanctuary! ;-)
~~Susan~~
"Then would you read a Sustaining Book, such as would
help and comfort a Wedged Bear in Great Tightness?"
---Winnie The Pooh
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (95 of 96), Read 13 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, November 01, 2001 09:11 PM
Susan, I think Faulkner presents a real dichotomy in his
women, they are often victims but they also pull most the
strings.
I don't think Lena is dumb either. I think her emotions are
numb...just numb enough for her to protect her
vulnerability.
Funny you should think of good old Eula! (I love Eula!) I
did too!
This really is a page turning psychological thriller..I
consider Sanctuary to be one, too.
(Hope to catch you down on the Sanctuary thread soon,
Susan..its a goooooood book, too!)
Beej
Topic:
Light in August: Wm. Faulkner (96 of 96), Read 1 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, November 02, 2001 11:47 AM
Very, very good note, Susan. I confess that I sometimes
say outrageous things, such as characterizing this as a
chick book, simply to provoke people.
Likewise calling Lena dumb. More accurately, she has
about her an unthinking stoicism. She is very much a part
of life without pondering it. She accepts life as it is. This, I
think, is simply saying the same thing you said in a
different way.
Steve