The Merriam-Webster Encylopedia of Literature:
Series of four novels by Lawrence Durrell. The lush and sensuous tetralogy, which consists of Justine (1957), Balthazar (1958), Mountolive (1958), and Clea (1960), is set in Alexandria, Egypt, during the 1940s. Three of the books are written in the first person, Mountolive in the third. The first three volumes describe, from different viewpoints, a series of events in Alexandria before World War II; the fourth carries the story forward into the war years. The events of the narrative are mostly seen through the eyes of one L.G. Darley, who observes the interactions of his lovers, friends, and acquaintances in Alexandria. In Justine, Darley attempts to recover from and understand his recently ended affair with Justine Hosnani. Reviewing various papers and examining his memories, he reads the events of his recent past in romantic terms. Balthazar, named for Darley's friend, a doctor and mystic, reinterprets Darley's views from a philosophical and intellectual point of view. The third novel is a straightforward narrative of events, and Clea, volume four, reveals Darley healing, maturing, and becoming capable of loving Clea Montis, a painter and the woman for whom he was destined.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (1 of 131), Read 123
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, January 31, 2001 01:26 AM
Ann, tomorrow I get to talk with my pals about this novel? Right?
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (2 of 131), Read 120
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 31, 2001 01:13 PM
Yes, Steve, finally. :)
This is going to be a good one, folks.
Ann
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (3 of 131), Read 118
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 31, 2001 01:59 PM
Why is it, every time I read Justine or other volumes of the Quartet, it's
winter in Alaska, making the experience of an emotional and literary visit to
Alexandria indescribably painful on a personal level?
Perhaps because it's always winter in Alaska?
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (4 of 131), Read 122
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 31, 2001 02:10 PM
Dick: I'm thinking (hoping?) that Durrell's Alexandria is a state of mind. I know
it never gets that hot, so to speak, in Alabama.
Or maybe I'm just frequenting the wrong cabarets... {G}
Jeez, but this guy can flat-out write.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (5 of 131), Read 124
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, January 31, 2001 02:41 PM
Agree, Dale. This is not a book to race thru for plot. It's one to be savored,
word for word.
Ruth
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (6 of 131), Read 121
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 31, 2001 05:02 PM
Probably something for another topic, but I'm always interested in reading
other's metaphors for their reading experience. In this case Ruth used the
old favorite "savor" to describe it.
Personally, I think we need to expand our horizons. For example, I'm rolling
in this one, waving all my limbs in the air, like a dog on a dead squirrel.
A little cumbersome, but I think it conveys my enthusiasm.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (7 of 131), Read 123
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dean Denis (dddenis@iname.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 31, 2001 05:11 PM
Dick, your metaphor conveys to me how wonderful "Justine" is provided, of
course, that one happens not to be a squirrel.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (8 of 131), Read 124
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, January 31, 2001 05:11 PM
Perhaps our use of metaphors is tied to our psyches, Dick. And just goes to
show why I'm visibly overweight and you're not.
Ruth
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (9 of 131), Read 128
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 31, 2001 07:56 PM
Dean: Particularly a dead squirrel.
Ruth: "Visibly" is right. Thank God for Photo-Shop.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (10 of 131), Read 123
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:16 AM
It isn't nirvana though. Parts if this Alexandria stink, as in flat out smell bad.
Parts of the city are incredibly dangerous. The guy coming back to the car to
find the corpse of his decapitated wife was interesting. The whole place is rife
with plotting and intrigue. The whole place is thick with an atmosphere not
entirely pleasant.
There isn't one character here whose personality is not seriously
compromised. I suppose one could make an argument otherwise about
Nessim, but I think one would lose that one. It is this cast of very vivid
characters that fascinates me. Pombal, Balthasar, Pursewarden, Scobie, Clea,
etc. I ought to be repelled by most of them, but on balance I find them a
pretty endearing bunch. Human jetsam and flotsam washed up in Alexandria.
I would like to discuss some of these people, and I will try as soon as I can
put together a little quiet time.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (11 of 131), Read 123
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:17 AM
Gooooooood Mooooooorning, Durrell fans! Pick up those dead squirrels, clean
off the dirty dishes, and let's get started!
For a guy who couldn't hold on to either a job or a wife, Durrell could write
like a son-of-a-gun, couldn't he?
But, what's he saying in this Justine? And how does it relate his miserable
personal life? And did his daughter kill herself because of the ridiculous name
she was saddled with (Sappho Jane)?
Just a few things that have cropped up for me on my latest amble down
Durrell Lane.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (12 of 131), Read 119
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Thursday, February 01, 2001 11:31 AM
I noticed that daughter, too, Dick. Sappho Jane is about as bad as a boy
named Sue, isn't it? I mean, it is one thing to be enamored of the eastern
Mediterranean and Greece in particular, but this carried the whole thing a
little too far. Perhaps topped by Moon Unit and Dweezil Zappa though.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (13 of 131), Read 121
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, February 01, 2001 11:56 AM
I hadn't realized Durrell's daughter had committed suicide. I have to wonder
if Durrell is excusing himself somehow with his last line, "Does not everything
depend on our interpretation of the silence around us?" People in his world
don't seem able to connect souls with those they love. Sad.
At the time I read the last sentence, I thought, "Oh, that explains a lot about
the lost souls in this book." Each was desperately reacting to the vacuous,
uncertainty of life.
Some, like Justine, were actively seeking answers. She drove me bonkers,
though, with her "Oh, I'm such a lost soul, so I'm excused for all the hurt I
create for those I love and who love me. After all, I'm on a QUEST for
meaning." Were we supposed to like her, or just pity her?
Others, like the narrator (does he have a name?) allowed themselves to drift
aimlessly, led only by what felt right at the time. They were tugged through
life by their emotions, no matter what their claims to the intellectual life were.
I found Justine depressing and moody as all hell, which made it a difficult
read for me. The language was exquisite, though, and I am left with many
questions of Durrell's message.
I was bothered by the inaction and helplessness of the characters. Perhaps
Dale is right when he says Alexandria merely represents the overall futility of
life for Durrell.
The ONLY character I related to was Melissa, who, though she never stood a
chance, showed the most integrity and engagement with life. It is significant
that she is the only one who produces a lasting legacy. Her story is the one
that will continue to be told through her child. None of the other characters
did one single thing to make the lives of others better, or made the decision
to rise above themselves for the good of others.
Justine has some points to make about the nature of love, I think. Problem is,
I'm not exactly sure what those points are, or if I agree with them. Ideas?
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (14 of 131), Read 123
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:06 PM
I don't remember finding anyone in the whole Alexandria Quartet very
sympathetic. The other books, which cover much of the same territory are
Balthazar, Mountolive and Clea. We've already met two of them. But I think
the most important 'character' in the whole AQ is the city of Alexandria itself.
Ruth
In human existence, permanence is a temporary condition.
Donna (Bookstore) Pohlman
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (15 of 131), Read 113
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, February 01, 2001 04:27 PM
Ruth-
Is the city of Alexandria a character, or more of an indifferent god? It has
presence, certainly, but is content to let its inhabitants stumble blindly.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (16 of 131), Read 118
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Thursday, February 01, 2001 09:47 PM
I am within a few pages of the end of Justine and this is one book that held
my interest to the point where I could not put it down. Much of the time when
I read a book I get sort of satiated and want to read something else. Not
with Justine.
Yes, I have been in Alexandria but just for a couple of days between a trip to
Cairo and the pyramids, one of these outings offered by the cruise lines.
What I saw in Cairo and Alexandria turned me off. I found the setting, the
houses, the people not too attractive. Went to some of the stores to buy
souvenirs and engaged to my horror in the usual ritual with the owners that I
have heard about. This bargaining turned me off though I understood the
cultural underpinnings.
To come back to Durrell. This man can write and I see him as an individual
who is trying to look for the soul of women by means of eroticism. Eroticism in
his book is not the way it is seen or practiced in the West, but Durrell uses it
as a means of inquiry, a medium, such as an artist, a painter or poet uses to
not only express himself but to search for the soul. These thoughts occured
to me and I wonder if you people see it that way as well.
Another strange thing for Western mind is the way these people look at
women. They are not seen as persons in their own right. They are being
sexually or emotionally used or exercise their power to gain status by their
beauty or mystery.
I really thing that Durrell's writing is unique and different from anything that I
have read before. I also see him as a kind person and only have liking and
sympathy for him.
I have not been able to conceptualize Justine but it has occurred to me that
she is also searching for her soul, the substance of herself that truly counts.
So they both are searching so far. Perhaps there are answers in the other
books of the quartet.
Ernie
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (17 of 131), Read 120
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, February 01, 2001 09:56 PM
Interesting note about eroticism, Ernie. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it
makes sense.
As far as East/West cultural differences in regard to women, though, weren't
most of the principal men in the book (other than Nessim)Western
Europeans?
If I remember correctly, the other 4 books don't continue this story. Rather,
each title character has his/her own story, which interweaves with this to
some extent.
Ruth
In human existence, permanence is a temporary condition.
Donna (Bookstore) Pohlman
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (18 of 131), Read 117
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Friday, February 02, 2001 07:51 AM
Ernie,
It's been years (more like decades) since I read Justine and I decided not to
reread it (mainly because then I would be forced to read the whole quartet),
but I just want to say how much I enjoyed your note.
Sherry
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (19 of 131), Read 120
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, February 02, 2001 11:52 AM
Edd-
You wrote: Eroticism in his book is not the way it is seen or practiced in the
West, but Durrell uses it as a means of inquiry, a medium, such as an artist, a
painter or poet uses to not only express himself but to search for the soul.
Interesting perspective on Justine, and it makes a lot of sense. There is
definitely a lot of soul searching going on in Justine, but seeing women or
men as an object does not seem to work for any of them. By doing that, they
are providing an emotional buffer between them and others. However,
Justine, Nessim, and the narrator (what is his name?) at least realize they
are missing something, and are actively seeking, through interaction with
others.
Some, like Pursewarden (writer) are pure observers, content to stand back
and watch others do the seeking. They are too frightened to jump into life
themselves and use the distance as a buffer from life.
I thought Durrell's comments on the nature of writing were fascinating. At
one point, he says of Pursewarden, "...I suddenly thought to myself that here
was a woman one might very well love:. Yet he did not take the risk of
revisiting her, for the book was going well, and he recognized in the kindling
of this sympathy a trick being played on him by the least intent part of his
nature. He was writing about love at the time and did not wish to disturb
the ideas he had formed on the subject."
I'd be curious to hear from the authors on the board on this quote. :-)
Other characters, like Georges Pombal, are very unhappy, but try to
compensate by keeping up appearances. I think Scobey falls into this
category, as well.
Perhaps, for Durrell, Alexandria is a woman -a separate, vibrant entity,
unknowable yet alluring, erotic and whimsical, intelligent, and oblivious to the
wake she creates.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (20 of 131), Read 117
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, February 02, 2001 06:13 PM
KAY
I'm flattered, but actually it was Ernie who had the insight on Durrell.
If my memory is still intact, wasn't this series of books a study in looking at a
woman through different eyes.
EDD
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (21 of 131), Read 117
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, February 02, 2001 07:38 PM
Ernie-
Sorry about that. Can I blame my confusion on an Alexandrian frame of mind?
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (22 of 131), Read 116
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, February 02, 2001 10:46 PM
Kay,
You don't need to apologize as our names are somewhat similar and who
knows? Perhaps we do think alike or almost so.
One of you made an interesting point. Namely that the main characters are
actually Europeans. Durrell, had an English education (I read the summary by
the Durrell Society). Some European have to escape the straight jackets of
their own culture and feel much more comfortable in a culture which is most
dissimilar - look at the American ex-patriates in France. These Americans may
well get a big high of being something very special and superior to the
natives and secondly could adopt their habits accepting the good and the
bad of their culture.
At the same time they are free in their pursuit of the soul - any old way -
almost.
Speaking of myself, I could never do it, it turns me off. I love the straight
jackets provided by our good old American culture.
Steve and Dick, I like the way you look at the author and the book. That
Durrell lived a horrible life is tragic, but not unusual for great literary figures.
That's why most of should thank god that we did not come close to literary
eminence.
Ernie
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (23 of 131), Read 118
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, February 02, 2001 10:48 PM
Sherry,
Thank you for your kind words. I assume you have moved away from
Milwaukee by now. Pat and I are looking forward to seeing all of our bookish
friends in September in that city.
Ernie
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (24 of 131), Read 120
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Saturday, February 03, 2001 07:17 AM
Yes, Ernie, I'm in Maryland now. I'll be seeing you in Milwaukee. Say Hi to Pat.
Sherry
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (25 of 131), Read 119
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, February 03, 2001 04:05 PM
Okay, you guys, I have made the tremendous sacrifice of giving up a day
devoted to cleaning in favor of completing Justine. I am happy to report that
the sacrifice was worth it.
This isn't an easy read. The poetic language takes some work, coupled with
the need to look up some words in either English or French dictionaries.
However, the writing and the ideas Durrell expresses make the effort
worthwhile.
My conclusion is that this novel isn't so much about love as it is about pain.
None of these characters seems to experience any real fun or even pleasure
in their sexual pairings. At the end of the novel, Clea suggests to the
nameless narrator that they join in a sexless union, based on friendship.
After watching these people hurt themselves and each other, this idea seems
to have a lot of merit.
Kay, Melissa is too much a victim for me to feel more than pity. Nessim was
more appealing because not only did he suffer almost to the point of insanity,
but at the end he was willing to take some action to try to break the cycle of
his self-destructive relationships.
As for the nameless narrator, he himself acknowledges that he is too
detached to fully give himself to anyone, thus making it difficult for me to give
myself too much to him. There is always something of the observer in him -
the writer looking for material. He functions as if he were a blind prisoner of
fate, with no choice in his actions. Justine is described as amoral. Is he any
less so? Or are they both victims of their obsessions?
This brings me to Justine. Justine would be almost repellent if it weren't for
that detail concerning a lost child, which inevitably elicits sympathy. Ernie, I
was very interested in your comments about the treatment of the female
characters in this book. Justine appeals to the narrator because "She talked
like a man and I talked to her like a man."(p.25) Does Durrell equate
intellectual discussion with being male? It sounds like it to me.
Now, at the risk of sounding totally ignorant, I have some questions about
the plot.
*****Plot Spoiler to Follow**********
Did Capodistria really rape Justine when she was a child, or was this some
kind of fantasy she had dreamed up to cover a deeply buried trauma. Her
first husband suggests it could have been a Freudian "screen memory" for
incidents in her earlier youth(p. 78). Can anyone explain what "screen
memory" means?
Towards the end of the book, Clea reports that Justine told her she had a
cousin in Alexandria, Virginia who was also named Justine and who had been
raped as a child. Had the narrator's Justine somehow incorporated these
details into her own psychic life as false memories?
Well, I am obviously way over my head here. What do you think, Ernie? Did
you ever meet anyone like Justine in your years of practice as a psychologist?
Ann
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (26 of 131), Read 124
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, February 03, 2001 04:38 PM
Ann-
Yes, Melissa was definitely a victim, but I saw her as someone who stood by
her values. For example, when she repays the narrator's debt by sleeping
with someone, rather than letting Justine/Nessim pay it off. I liked that about
her. She did what she could. Part of that was jealousy, and part of it was
trying to protect her lover from being further pulled into Justine's web.
I also liked that she wrote cheerful letters, though the situation in the
hospital must have been horrendous. She was trying to protect the man she
loved.
Third, Melissa was the only one that seemed to understand the nature of a
real relationship, or love.
I know she's a minor character, and very much a victim. She's definitely not
an integral part of the book. However, she is one of two characters who
showed any inkling of what life is really about.
The other character that had her act together was Clea. She found meaning
through art, and used that means to engage with life. She is also the one
that seeks to connect at the end of the book. Though their relationship will
be platonic, the new household will have warmth and meaning, because they
will be actively seeking another's soul. They will join forces rather than focus
only on their individual needs.
For some reason, I could not relate to these characters. Their isolation and
inability to form meaningful relationships aroused my empathy. Yet, I was
incredibly distressed at their inability or unwillingness to learn or to show
consideration for others.
I cannot say I enjoyed this book, though I did appreciate the artistry with
which it was written. I am searching for the lesson to be learned by reading
it. I cannot get past my own rose colored glasses to glean much from the
characters. The novel rang an emptiness to my ears.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (27 of 131), Read 127
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Saturday, February 03, 2001 05:28 PM
Oooops, Ann, it has happened again. We have confused the narrator with
Durrell.
I suppose in the context of that paragraph you could take the position that
the narrator is equating intellectual conversation with masculine
conversation.
. . .we were possessed only by a desire to communicate ideas and experiences
which overstepped the range of thought normal to conversation among ordinary
people. He says.
I took this more to mean that they communicated with an understanding
more common in male-to-male discussions in the narrator's experience. I
could be wrong though.
As to your questions about Justine's background, as I warned you a while
ago, you are not expected to completely understand her story at the end of
this book. Don't refer to yourself as sounding ignorant. Be a little more
self-forgiving.
What Arnauti refers to as "the check," that is, the reserve of an important
portion of herself in these relationships with men, almost becomes itself a
character in the novel. Does it ever drive these guys nuts!
I love the character Joshua Samuel Scobie, the lovable pirate with a penchant
for young boys. He is a great comic character and very vivid for me, but I
won't include my observations about him here. Another note. Later.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (28 of 131), Read 130
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Saturday, February 03, 2001 06:57 PM
I've been following the discussion with interest. I read about 6 pages and
agree some with Ernie's note about the view of sexuality. It's not veiled, IMO,
but fairly obvious from the very start.
The style is readable but distant in what I'd call a "bad romance novel" kind
of way. That longing, (self-pity?), distancing all read to me like the contrived
romance plot, perhaps taken to a supposedly higher literary level. (Don't all
jump on me, now! I read romance novels, though, and usually put down one
with this kind of tone.) I'm not saying that there might not be some
redeeming value to this book. The style, though, is more whiney than I
expected.
I'm deciding if I'm going to read it. I have a feeling that this might be just too
much of a downer for me right now.
Bo
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (29 of 131), Read 128
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 04:04 PM
Ann, Kay,
Your discussion and comments were much to the point and actually
fascinating. I also wrote a note on Justine's molestation or rape (though I
was quite ambivalent about doing it being afraid of offending some of you
with my clinical experiences) In my work I saw a number of clients who had
experiences of being sexually abused in their childhood. They turned out to
be fixated on having to relive this event during any episode of intimacy with
men, mainly husbands. They were terribly upset about not being able to
shake the memory at this point. One male patient acted out a similar
experience. I don't remember that any of them changed.
Ann, do you have any idea what happened to my previous note on this
subject. Did I accidentally wipe it out or is it being reviewed?
Ernie
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (30 of 131), Read 94
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 06:15 PM
Ernie-
I appreciated Justine's frantic paralyzation with "the Check." My problem with
her stemmed from her callous behavior toward Nessim. She knew he was in
pain, as did the narrator, but neither made the effort to stop. That's where I
parted emotional empathy for them. Stopping the affair was well within their
control.
I'm being too harsh and judgmental, I know. However, I think that since they
knew they didn't love each other, and were in pain because they realized
how much Nessim was hurting, they could have respected his feelings and
stopped the affair. That, at least, would have given them something positive
in their lives.
I cannot figure what they learned about themselves at the end of the novel.
Is Justine really content on the kibbutz or had her need for soul searching
just stopped with the death of Capodistria? It seemed to me she had just
given up somehow.
The narrator also seems to have gained an acceptance of his life, yet still
seems puzzled by Women and the Art of Soul Mating. His spirit still seems
devoid of life and fullness.
I think this book was as much about depression as anything - empty, lifeless,
numb, oblivious to others, surrounded by an isolating darkness and too tired
to fight.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (31 of 131), Read 107
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 12:12 AM
The beginning of the book actually presents the final outcome of the story
and the end describes what has taken place before completing the picture..
Justine and Nessim appear to have found themselves. Justine's search for
excitement did not provide the answers nor did it provide happiness. But the
simple life as member of a commune did change her for the better. She was
described as looking like a simple working woman without her seductive
charm. Nessim also changed in presenting the norm of his social status just
paying attention to his financial empire.
For some reason I did not pay much attention to Melisa or she did not come
across as real as the other characters in the novel. I was bothered by the
writer's abandonment of her in favor of Justine. The writer himself (what was
his name - Durrell by any chance- seems to continue to live in his chronic
depression and pain, yet he takes care of Melisa's child.
As a clinical psychologist there was a very interesting episode that explains
Justine's sexual problems. She mentioned that she was either seduced or
raped when she was quite young and is now reliving this incident during
intimacy with a lover. She is forced to recall the incident in her fantasies in
order to reach excitement. I have quite frequently heard the almost identical
story from a number of my clients. This is perhaps the major and often life
long damage that these victims suffer i.e. they must re-live the incident no
matter how much they love their present partners.
Please note that Justine disappeared at the point the original attacker was
found dead. Perhaps it was only at this point when she could "let go" and
freed herself of the experience and then was able to live normally
Ernie
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (32 of 131), Read 104
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 10:38 AM
Thanks, Ernie, for your comments. It's interesting to know that Justine's
behavior followed a rather common pattern. It adds to the authenticity of a
character whom it is somewhat difficult to appreciate. Or are some of you
drawn to Justine? I'd be interested in finding out.
Steve, I think that the ambiguity about what really happened between
Capodistria and Justine adds to the novel. You are right, of course, that I
confused the comments of the unknown narrator-author with the real author.
In any case, I think the comments about Justine being like a man reflect
certain attitudes common to the society of that time rather than any unique
attitudes of the author.
Here are a couple of other statements referencing Justine's male qualities
(p.20, Penguin edition):
...yet how touching, how pliantly feminine this most masculine and resourceful of
women could be. She could not help but remind me of that race of terrific queens
which left behind them the ammoniac smell of their incestuous loves to hover
like a cloud over the Alexandrian subconscious. The giant man-eating cats like
Arsinoe were her true siblings.
or
(p. 49) When I thought of Justine I thought of some great free-hand
composition, a cartoon of a woman representing someone released from bondage
in the male.
There are some other references here. I assume the incestuous queens are
the ancient Egyptian queens who married their brothers? I have never heard
of Arsinoe. Her male qualities include not just her fondness for intellectual
conversation, but also her strength and attitude towards sex. In the late
1930's, which is the setting of this novel, women who had numerous sexual
partners were "promiscuous." Men were--what? Lucky? Justine was a sexual
predator, who constantly cheated on her spouse. Surely this was a reversal
of the usual sex roles.
Bo, this isn't the kind of novel that will make the reader feel good, but those
who like Durrell's style will appreciate the carefully crafted writing and
thought provoking ideas.
Here are a couple of examples of the writing which I particularly liked:
"There are only three things to be done with a woman," said Clea once. "You can
love her, suffer for her, or turn her into literature." I was experiencing a failure in
all these domains of feeling. p.22
Guilt always hurries towards its complement, punishment: only there does its
satisfaction lie." p.147-148
"As for the dead,(Justine) went on after a moment, "I have always thought that
the dead think of us as dead. They have rejoined the living after this trifling
excursion into quasi-life.(p.202)
Ann
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (33 of 131), Read 103
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 11:28 AM
"I cannot say I enjoyed this book, though I did appreciate the artistry with
which it was written. I am searching for the lesson to be learned by reading
it. I cannot get past my own rose colored glasses to glean much from the
characters. The novel rang an emptiness to my ears."
Kay: I second your emotions and I hear that ringing as well...
Thank God it was short, though.
Dan
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (34 of 131), Read 104
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Anne Wilfong (anne.wilfong@gte.net)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 11:43 AM
I have tried and tried to find a "flow" to this book, to stick with it and discover
the joy of wonderful writing that is certainly there. But I cannot finish this
right now. It's taking way too much effort, despite the quality of the pending
discussion. So, after a valiant effort, I'm bowing out--for now. I'm a moody
reader, and I'm in need of a life interrupter now. Of my last 4 attempts, I've
put down all but one...sigh.
Anne
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (35 of 131), Read 105
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 11:44 AM
Oh, Dan, I'm so sorry you didn't like it. I love Durrell's writing. The story and
the people did ring of emptiness, their own emotional and psychological
emptiness. What a bunch of unattractive people. I sure wouldn't want to be
caught on a guided tour of the pyramids with them. (But perhaps that's the
lesson to be learned.)
But to me, the voice and the writing is so evocative of a place and time, that
I'm willing to let myself sink into it and just experience it. The writing
somehow manages to be lush and spare at the same time. It really pulls me
in.
Ruth
In human existence, permanence is a temporary condition.
Donna (Bookstore) Pohlman
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (36 of 131), Read 105
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 12:39 PM
Ruth: The writing was dynamic--but the remaining books in the quartet: Are
they much the same? Empty, despicable characters delineated with a deft
literary pen?
Dan
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (37 of 131), Read 107
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 12:58 PM
It's been about 20 years since I read these books, Dan, but I remember them
as being very similar, although in each book we focus on a different
character. Still, as I said before, the city of Alexandria, with all its sights,
sounds, smells, all its exotica, the squalid quarter, the palaces, the sand, the
sea, is to me the most important character of all.
Ruth
In human existence, permanence is a temporary condition.
Donna (Bookstore) Pohlman
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (38 of 131), Read 95
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 06:13 PM
Ernie,
Your note is still there. It was note 58 out of 78 when I last checked.
This is certainly an interesting book from a psychological viewpoint isn't it?
The description of Nessim losing his grip on his sanity is excellent.
Dan, these aren't people I would want to be friends with, except for Nessim
who interested me mightily. As Kay pointed out, Melissa also has her strong
points. Still I can understand why you find it unpleasant to read about their
failings.
Ruth, the narrator seems to think that these people would not have been
what they were if they had not lived in Alexandria. The city, which he calls the
"capital of memory" is as much a character in the book as the people. The
four main characters represent the multi-ethnic character of Alexandria.
Melissa is a Greek, Justine is a Russian Jew, the narrator is Irish, and Nessim
is a Coptic Egyptian. It's interesting that none of them are Moslems, surely
the predominant religious group.
Ann
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (39 of 131), Read 98
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 06:45 PM
"these people would not have been what they were if they had not lived in
Alexandria." Very good point, Ann. Alexandria seems far stronger than any of
these poor souls.
And the four characters representing the 4 ethnic groups, I hadn't thought of
that, altho it seems perfectly obvious now you mention it.
Ruth
In human existence, permanence is a temporary condition.
Donna (Bookstore) Pohlman
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (40 of 131), Read 101
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 07:42 PM
Phew! I am so relieved at the serious winnowing process in evidence here.
When I nominated this book, I did not foresee the reaction I would have
when it came right down to a discussion of it. I should have foreseen my own
reaction based upon my experience some years ago with another of "my"
books about which I have this deranged proprietary kind of feeling,
Kazantzakis's Zorba the Greek. It is a strangely unpleasant feeling watching
these books being pawed over by a crowd.
So I bid you all a fond but delighted farewell. This is in a real way an intimate
novel and does not work well with a crowd anyway. Ideally, by the time the
24th rolls around, I will be the only one left, muttering to myself about it.
(Blessedly, it is a short month as well as a short book, eh Dan?)
No, Ernie, and no, Ann, Justine's conduct is not understood with the usual,
pat explanation of sexual abuse in her youth. You are thinking precisely what
you are supposed to think right now though. Justine is as devious as they
come and has simply hoodwinked you as well as the narrator for the time
being. The Queen of Spades, as she comes to be referred to, is not what she
appears to be, nor is any other character here--except the narrator.
This is not to say that I don't believe Justine stands alone as a novel without
the other three. It certainly does.
Now where was I? Oh, yes. Joshua Samuel Scobie. The portrait of him
commencing at around 199 strikes me as about as great a portrait of a comic
character as I have run across except for Falstaff and some Evelyn Waugh
characters perhaps. He has a profound fear of death in his old age, so much
so that he is afraid to open his eyes in the morning. Then he is so elated that
he has not died in his sleep that he overreacts. "Bounding from my bed like a
lion," indeed!
Here's a guy who had to give up scoutmastering for fear of doing twenty
years, and where does he end up? Working on the Egyptian police vice
squad! "It is said that after his appointment to the Vice Squad vice assumed
such alarming proportions that it was found necessary to up-grade and
transfer him. . ."
The frosting on this cake is that after his death and much to Clea's delight,
Scobie is transformed into El Yacoub, officially listed among the Coptic
Church's saints, and his bathtub becomes a local shrine with reputed power
to enhance fertility. But again I refer to something outside the scope of this
one particular novel, and I promise not to do that often here.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (41 of 131), Read 97
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 07:56 PM
Now you've done it, Steve. You've hooked me into a reread of the rest of the
Quartet. I do think I'll get more out of it this time. Certainly Justine didn't
seem as confusing as it was to me the first time around.
Ruth
In human existence, permanence is a temporary condition.
Donna (Bookstore) Pohlman
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (42 of 131), Read 93
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, February 04, 2001 11:11 PM
Steve-
Can you describe what pulls you to Durrell's work? What did you take from it?
You've already mentioned the humor. There were several spots that drew a
smile from me.
One of my favorites was when Pombal gives his party, "The little
consul-general is fawning and gesticulating over Pombal; his relief at my
friend's departure is so great that he has worked himself up into a paroxysm
of friendship and regret. The English consular group has the disconsolate air
of a family of moulting turkeys." Ha!
And then there was Capodistria, "...keeping us entertained with anecdotes of
his fabulous mad father. ("His first act on going mad was to file a suit against
his two sons acccusing them of wilful and persistent illegitimacy".)
Another good one: "The cocktail-party - as the name itself indicates- was
originally invented by dogs. They are simply bottom-sniffings raised to the
rank of formal ceremonies."
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (43 of 131), Read 98
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 12:42 AM
Kay,
The major aspect of most tragedies remains the participants inability to
escape their suffering. Not only is fate playing a trick on them but they are
unable to divorce themselves from participating in the most painful sort of
suffering. This is tragedy. Clinically one calls some of these characteristics
Folies a deux. Two perfectly normal people, when exposed to each other will
cause each other pain and misery. It's common in marriages I have been told.
However some people are born to suffer, hurting others and being hurt. This
is what the book is, in part about. The other part pertains to its poetic
beauty. I have rarely read greater and more beautiful writing.
Ernie
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (44 of 131), Read 97
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 09:39 AM
These observations are great, Ernie! (By the way, I do not intend to convey
the idea that I have all the answers concerning this novel. I most certainly do
not.)
Folies à deux, eh? I like that! Notice this by Freud at the beginning of the
book:
I am accustoming myself to the idea of regarding every sexual act as a process in
which four persons are involved. We shall have a lot to discuss about that.
Perhaps we have an extremely rare case here of folies à quatre. This quartet
of madness involved the narrator, Justine, Nessim, and Melissa.
Certainly, the very mordant wit skewering human frailty is one of the things
that draws me to the book, Kay. The book is loaded with that. Ann has cited
some examples of great turns of phrase. The two quotations concerning the
cocktail party that you cite are examples. Regarding Pombal's cocktail parties,
I also loved this:
He had been having no small succcess lately with his carefully graduated
cocktail-parties--into which he occasionally introduced guests from the humbler
spheres of life like prostitution or the arts.
The novel purports to be a study of love, and in this regard it demonstrates
some perceptiveness, I think. When the wit is applied to this subject it can
turn downright caustic:
. . .and from here too the disgusted and dispirited faces of the long-married, tied
to each other back to back, so to speak, like dogs unable to disengage after
coupling.
Or this:
It is so much easier to address questions intended for one's husband to one's
lover.
Yet, there are extremely beautiful descriptions of the symptoms and
phenomenon of falling in love. After their impromptu skinny-dip, Nessim and
Melissa do not want to separate:
Yet since they were reluctant to surrender each other to the life which awaited
them they lagged, the car lagged, their silence lagged between endearments.
That strikes me as a beautiful description of new lovers slowing down,
stalling, because they don't want to part.
So it is that kinda stuff, framed as it is in this vivid setting and atmosphere of
intrigue, that draws me to the book.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (45 of 131), Read 98
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 11:18 AM
Oh, doesn't Durrell slip the knife in deftly. I think I love this book for the same
reasons you do, Steve. The jewel-like, almost poetic descriptions, the wit, the
exotic setting, and these people who almost seem as if they're being moved
about like chess pieces, with little will of their own, or with that will sapped
by the overpowering city of Alexandria.
Ruth
In human existence, permanence is a temporary condition.
Donna Pohlman
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (46 of 131), Read 98
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 11:47 AM
Ernie-
I hadn't considered Justine as a tragedy. That helps. Part of my confusion
was coming from the disparity between my reaction to the characters and the
philosophical aspects Durrell is presenting. Seeing Justine as a tragedy
makes all the difference. It becomes easier to let the characters do their
thing, and to focus on the message.
Ruth-
You were dead on when you used confused as your initial reaction to
"Justine." That sums up my reaction nicely. I knew there was a message
there. I just couldn't get to it.
Steve-
Thanks for sharing your reasons for your love of this novel. I like to
understand what I'm missing. Next time, please don't wait so long to chime
in.
All-
What did you make of the excerpts from Mouers, written by Justine's first
husband? Durrell seems to be explaining the relationship between the nature
of love and writing in much of the book, and uses Justine as an example.
After declaring that Justine, "...was not looking for life but for some
integrating revelation which would give it point," he goes on to make the
accusation that "Women must attack writers - and from the moment she
learned I was a writer she felt disposed to make herself interesting by
dissecting me."
He seems to be saying that Justine is using the author's skills of observation
to help her sort through her life and make sense of it for her. She flirts with
him for that reason, and sees intercourse as the price she has to pay. "Quick.
Engorge-moi From desire to revulsion - let's get it over." Because the Albanian
hears the "weariness and humility" she speaks with, he declares, ".....who
could forbear to love her?"
He sees her as "concealing a ravenous hunger for information, for power
through self-knowledge, under a pretence of feeling." He understands that
"... it was never in the lover that I really met her but in the writer. Here we
clasped hands - in that amoral world of suspended judgements where
curiosity and wonder seem greater than order - the syllogistic order imposed
by the mind. This is where one waits in silence, holding one's breath, lest the
pane should cloud over. I watched over her like this. I was mad about her."
The narrator is also used by Justine to help her sort through her personal
demons. He is also a writer. Pursewarden is one as well, and refuses to love
in favor of writing about love.
Her pain comes from her relationship with Nessim. He loves her for herself,
and she responds to him with genuine feeling - hence her sense of guilt. But
he is not able to distance himself with a writer's perspective in order to
provide her with personal insight.
I can see the intrigue and pull of a needy person like Justine, and am working
to tame the buttons she pushes for me. I am having a hard time breaking
from my reaction to what I see as emotional blackmail used by Justine. I
know she's desperate to find meaning. I also know she's highly intelligent,
and knows exactly what she's doing. As Steve wrote, Justine isn't what she
seems, and is more intentionally manipulative than presented in this book.
I'm still puzzled by her stay on the kibbutz. Is she content or has she given
up?
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (47 of 131), Read 99
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 12:30 PM
Kay, when I said I was confused the first time I read Justine, it wasn't at the
moral or philosophical level that you are exploring. I was confused by the
plot, by what the heck was going on.
As for the moral/philosophical level, I'm interested in hearing what everyone
has to say because I'm a long way from understanding what's going on
under the surface.
I seem able to accept Justine (the book) at the level of the amoral. It just is,
and I find it fascinating.
Ruth
In human existence, permanence is a temporary condition.
Donna
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (48 of 131), Read 101
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 12:30 PM
It's not a sin to be confused by a novel, Kay. Justine is not a book for
someone who likes to walk away from their novels with a clear conception of
the good guys and bad guys and a neatly wrapped lesson. Life itself is a bit
bewildering, after all, and in my experience rarely falls neatly into place.
But frankly, you're doing great. This latest note sets out some fine
observations. I guess I disagree a bit with your earlier note about the
detachment of all the characters, but that certainly does apply to
Pursewarden. I suspect that if it's necessary for us to search for an authorial
voice in this thing, we might better to look to him than to the narrator.
I don't have much confidence in the narrator's perceptiveness other than his
perceptiveness about the nature of his own feelings. It is his own feelings
that compromise his perceptiveness generally. Not so with Pursewarden.
On the other hand, I failed to find anything whiney about the narrator's tone.
Clearly, he has lost his way in life and says so, but I did not pick up on any
whine in this.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (49 of 131), Read 104
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 12:50 PM
Yes, in fact, the narrator even seems resigned, if not down-right relieved by
this turn of events.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (50 of 131), Read 104
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 12:54 PM
Steve-
No, I don't detect any whine in the narrator, either. In fact, I felt closer to him
than most of the other characters. At least he was honest about his
confusion and pain. He also sought out Melissa's child, unwanted by anyone
else. That showed a depth of character. I worry about her own emotional
well being, though. Her caretaker is still lost, I think. Hopefully, Clea will set
things to right.
I don't have to walk away from a novel with a clear idea of good guys and
bad guys. But I do like to walk away with an understanding of what message
the author is trying to send. I don't want lessons in the reading of Justine,
which is what this is feeling like. I'm interested in discussion.
Ruth-
I didn't have a problem with the plot, just the message, which I'm still
struggling with.
Is there one, besides the effects of amorality and existential angst?
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (51 of 131), Read 101
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 01:34 PM
Great notes everyone.
Kay, I don't think Durrell wrote to convey any kind of message, but one I
think a reader could reasonably derive from the book is: passion + guilt =
agony.
You quoted one of my favorite phrases. The subject is writing: " in that
amoral world of suspended judgements where curiosity and wonder seem
greater than order."
Steve, thanks a lot. Now I have to read the other 3 books in the quartet. I
love stories with twists. An author can play with me all he likes, leading me
down one path, only to finally let me know that he has succeeded in getting
me totally lost. Do the other books have narrators? Do we ever learn the
name of the narrator in Justine?
Ann
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (52 of 131), Read 100
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 01:40 PM
I think it may be time now to bring up the Gnostic thing.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (53 of 131), Read 101
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 01:44 PM
In regard to the folies à quatre, the narrator says (page 203,Penguin):
The four of us were unrecognized complementaries of one another, inextricably
bound together."
Melissa is much like Nessim, and it is not at all surprising that they end up
lovers. In fact, there is a general partner swapping between the four.
Yes, Dick now would be a good time to discuss the gnostic thing. There is a
god of goodness and his equal god of evil, right? And while we're at it can
anyone tell me what hermetic philosophy is?
Ann
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (54 of 131), Read 109
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 02:05 PM
In all fairness, Ann, that is a helluva reading project. Roughly the equivalent
of War and Peace. Also in all fairness, it is well worth it though. As I recall, the
narrator's name is Darley.
"Passion + Guilt=Agony." Excellent! Goddamnit, Ann, you're all right! I don't
care what these other folks have been saying about you in their e-mails to
me.
I agree whole-heartedly, Dick. I think it's time to bring up the Gnostic thing.
Also, could you search out the hermetic philosophy home page for us?
Notice down in Bea's Nile photo topic that it was these darned Coptics that
chiselled the features off the faces of some Egyptian sculptures.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (55 of 131), Read 112
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 02:16 PM
I'm not saying this is THE Hermetic Philosophy Homepage, but it's certainly in
the top 10, plus you can dance to it.
http://www.lightparty.com/Spirituality/Hermetic.html
As you can see, the first principle of Hemetic Philosophy is that the "the
Universe is mental." This, in turn, leads us to that conundrum of the ages:
"When did the Universe get mental? I mean, I remember when it happened
to my mother, but the Universe is a much harder question. Was the Universe
always a little "mental"? For example, a lot of quantum physics might be
explainable by the fact that the Universe is just a half a bubble off level, two
bricks shy of a full hod, etc., and has been from jump street.
I'll be back with more Gnostic Thing later, but in the mean time I'm sure you
can see how this all relates to the characters and lives in Justine. It's not just
the Universe that's "mental", and that's a fact.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (56 of 131), Read 121
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 02:22 PM
At this point early on, I will give Hermetic Philosophy an 85. I don't
understand all the lyrics, but it certainly does have a good dance beat.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (57 of 131), Read 59
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dean Denis (dddenis@iname.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:25 PM
Steve, thank you for suggesting this book. I enjoyed it immensely.
I think, however, that the setting for this book is not Alexandria. I place the
setting inside the narrator’s mind at a time and place after he left Alexandria
where simultaneously with the narrator, we see memories which are still
painful for him but from which he is compelled to derive some sense. I felt
that this was the first time since they occurred that he is able to bring the
whole progression of events back to mind; events which have left him
wounded and still hurting.
In his efforts to make sense of these events, he interleaves into his
memories excerpts of the book written by Justine’s first husband. A book
which, I think, the narrator had read after Justine had left him. A book which
he sought in the same way that he sought out her perfume. But whereas the
perfume sweetened the pain, the book was an attempt to heal the wound
through some sort of understanding.
We are watching as the narrator begins to come to terms with his lingering
ache, like a man who can no longer ignore a broken leg and must try to set it
himself. To do this the narrator must have a clinical approach and we sense
this in the distance which we feel for the characters. That distance is also the
narrator’s, as it would increase his pain to get too close. But some pain is
inevitable and to bring up these memories is an act of courage for him. We
wince with him as he touches the frayed ends of his life in Alexandria but the
narrator is not without the analgesics of humour and intellect.
Thanks again, Steve, and, as I haven't read them yet, thank you also for
giving thoughts about the rest of the books in the Quartet so skilfully as to
give nothing away.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (58 of 131), Read 89
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 03:43 PM
Just swinging the colum back to the left.
Damn, you guys are good. I'm really enjoying the notes here. Ann, I
particularly liked your singling out the quote,
in that amoral world of suspended judgements where curiosity and wonder
seem greater than order."
That's exactly where I feel I am when I'm reading the AQ.
Ruth
In human existence, permanence is a temporary condition.
Donna Pohlman
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (59 of 131), Read 87
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 09:35 PM
I just finished this tonight. Read it very slowly to try to tease out what was
really happening and still have missed a lot of it. How in the world did Durrell
pack so many characters, plot details and philosophy into one small book?
I was particularly interested in Durrell's early life when I read the internet site
about him, that he and his parents were born in India and that he lived there
until he was 11, then hated the restrictions of British life. I wonder if this
novel could have been written by a British writer. There is so much that can't
be fitted into any accepted cubbyholes of Western morality. Throughout, it
has the feel of a dream, of shades of gray and a foggy sort of reality.
Though no one is completely admirable (another dose of reality), I was struck
by the relative power of the characters of a few of the women. Justine and
Clea don't seem to be typical female literary characters for the 1950's.
Clea was the character I "liked" the most, tempting me to read the book of
the quartet with her name. But, what did you all think of her synopsis of
Justine in the end:
I mean, in Justine's case, having become cured of the mental aberrations
brought about by her dreams, her fears, she has been deflated like a bag. For so
long, the fantasy occupied the foreground of her life that now she is
dispossessed of her entire stock-in-trade.
This seems plausible, yet such a reduction, so simplistic. I was curious at this
point as to Clea's reaction, that she was so repelled by Justine in her new
incarnation and seemingly felt so superior.
Barb
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (60 of 131), Read 92
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Monday, February 05, 2001 10:27 PM
Clea and Justine were lovers once. In fact at this point, Justine is the only
serious lover Clea had ever had. I don't think this experience was any less
painful for Clea than it was for anyone else.
Nonetheless, here I think she is just sincerely shocked at the changed
Justine she encountered in Palestine.
I confess that I more than "like" Clea. I have gotten a little hot for her. A
wealthy, good looking, self-sufficient, artist woman. I'm also partial to her
because she is a pal of Scobie and furnishes him with tobacco.
Remember early in the book she shelters the narrator from the weather,
sleeps with him, but asks that he not make love to her?
This letter of hers to the narrator on his island at the end is great. On one
page she is lecturing him on how love is never equally matched, generally
explaining in an oblique way why it will never work for her. Than a page later
she is inquiring of the narrator as to whether he might be interested in a
friendship this side of love (the word and its conventions are odious to her)
that is deeper than love, limitlessly deep, and yet wordless and idealess.
You know, I think there is potential here for a great evolution in the
relationship between Clea and the narrator.
Notice the "Character-Squeeze" on Clea Montis in the Consequential Data:
"still waters of pain"
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (61 of 131), Read 90
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 06, 2001 12:29 PM
While we're on the ending, which Kay referred to long ago. . . .
First, my favorite ending of a novel has long been the ending of The Great
Gatsby wherein Nick talks about hills and the Dutch explorers who originally
visited what became New York. That ending has been very affecting for me
ever since I first read it.
Second, I confess that I was a little shaken by some of the early notes
posted here about this one. Contrary to appearances, I really am not 100%
confident in my own taste, and judgments in that connection. I have gone off
on many joy rides of exuberant enthusiasm over people, places, and things
that later petered out in regret and some cost in one form or another.
However, when I hit the ending of this one again this past weekend, my
confidence was completely restored. That business of the narrator explaining
why he is not going to respond to Clea's offer and that so much depends on
our interpretation of silences around us is simply magnificent! I would go to
the bank on that judgment, as well as my judgment on the entire work up to
that point.
I guess that henceforth I am going to have to say that the ending of The
Great Gatsby is my favorite ending of an American novel. The irony is that this
ending I'm talking about here is not really an ending at all.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (62 of 131), Read 88
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 06, 2001 01:52 PM
Ah, Steve, you're such a tease. You mean, even Clea is not what she seems?
Barb, I agree, she is my favorite character, although Scobie is the most
entertaining.
So Steve, what is the meaning of this "Consequential Data"? Was this part of
the original novel, or is it something later editors added from Durrell's notes?
Ann
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (63 of 131), Read 95
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 06, 2001 02:14 PM
I am not teasing. Really. I was hurt by that remark.
I said that there are a lot of things I don't know about this novel. The entire
significance of this Consequential Data is one. It looks to me as if he pulled
some entries from his notes and put them in here as a sort of Appendix, as
you say. I have no reason to believe this was not there from the get-go.
I do think that his description in Consequential Data of the "n-dimentional"
novel that Pursewarden envisioned is actually a description of precisely what
Durrell himself was attempting in this Quartet.
Here's another thing that mystifies me, which perhaps somebody can help me
with. In that closing paragraph (or maybe the penultimate one) he speaks of
the previous actions of the characters as having swirled around inanimate
objects, or something like that. He lists Cohen's rings, Balthazar's watch key
shaped like an ankh, Capodistria's eye patch, and a fingerstall.
I remember enough of the three subsequent novels to realize that the first
three items have great significance in those books, which indicates to me
that he had those novels well in mind when he finished this one. (For
example, Capodistria is not really dead.) I'll be damned if I know what he is
talking about with this fingerstall. In fact, I had a helluva time figuring out
what a fingerstall is. (It is some kind of finger protector. Maybe like a thimble.
I wish one of our friends from the United Kingdom would help.) Moreover, I
cannot find any previous mention of a fingerstall in this particular book at all.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (64 of 131), Read 88
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 06, 2001 02:42 PM
Steve: Brewer's has this to say about 'finger-stall':
A hutkin, a cover for a sore finger. The Germans call a thimble a finger-hut,
where hut is evidently the word hut or huth (a tending, keeping, or guarding),
from the verb huten (to keep watch over). Our hutkin is simply a little cap for
guarding a sore finger. Stall is the Saxon stœl (a place), whence our stall, a place
for horses.
If that helps.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (65 of 131), Read 92
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 06, 2001 02:44 PM
Dick, that certainly does help. Thank you very much. I mean it. Apparently,
another word for it in English is "cot."
Now all I have to do is figure out who had a sore finger here. This is a very
upsetting mystery for me right now--almost as upsetting a mystery as how I
am going to pay my rent the beginning of next month after getting hooked
into fooling around with this novel so much.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (66 of 131), Read 86
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 06, 2001 03:47 PM
Steve and Friends: You're beginning to sway my initial opinion. Perhaps, a
reading of the remaining quartet is almost a must if I am to come to terms
with this novel.
In a good sense, Justine cannot stand alone--it needs the other three works
to bounce off of. And it is that very shuttling between the novels where the
true art of this work can best be viewed and appreciated. Would you who
read the entire quartet agree with this statement?
Dan
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (67 of 131), Read 87
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Lynn Isvik (washualum@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 06, 2001 03:48 PM
Steve, Does your copy have a section at the end called "Work Points"? The
version I got from the university library is the full Alexandria Quartet in one
volume and each one is followed by Work Points, which seem to be Durrell's
comments about the relationships between the novels, although I really
haven't had time to pay much attention to them yet.
Lynn
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (68 of 131), Read 93
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Tuesday, February 06, 2001 04:54 PM
That's fascinating, Lynn. I don't know anything about that. I remember
looking for Consequential Data at the end of the other novels and not finding
any. "Working points," huh? You're all right, kid. Thanks. I will look into that. I
really am interested.
As for you, Daniel LeBeouf, have I ever been awaiting your reappearance
with anticipation! (I'll get to your question in minute.)
Way back when I considered nominating this, the primary thing I mulled over
was whether the fact that this was the first in a quartet would ruin it for our
purposes here. You know something? It was you that persuaded me it was
okay.
I said to myself, "No, LeBeouf will love this. An author with a poetic bent.
Some strange religious philosophy, albeit touched upon only briefly, but
enough to discuss. Some mysteries, fun to consider. Some sex. Vivid
characters with a balance in strength of male and female. Exotic setting.
LeBeouf will be pinging off the walls! LeBeouf will be like a balloon let loose!"
The upshot is that while Ruthie was expressing her disappointment that you
did not like it, I myself was stunned into utter silence, which, knowing me as
you do now, is about as stunned as a person can get.
So I have been thinking about this a good deal since, losing sleep in the
process. At first I considered the possibility that you had not been kicked
around by life enough yet to be ready for the book. I quickly discarded that
theory. I suspect life has kicked you around plenty.
Or rather, I refined the theory along the lines that life had not kicked you
around enough in a certain way. I think you have been too lucky with women
in your life. (I mean only for the purposes of connecting with this book.) Let
me explain with an example.
My favorite line in this novel--absolute favorite bar any among all these great
lines--occurs in Book III, and it is very short. With regard to Nessim, we read
that Justine had ceased being a woman for him and had become a situation.
When I first read that sentence, I had to stand up and go hold onto the
refrigerator while I caught my breath. (Then I opened the refrigerator.) I
seriously doubt whether you even noticed it. And the reason I'm so
goddamned upset with you is that I am so goddamned jealous of you.
Now as for the question, read that description of the "n-dimensional novel" in
Consequential Data. Hell, you've already wasted money on the book, haven't
you? For the purpose of appreciating and understanding what is written
there, yes, one would have to read the entire set. Still and having said that, I
continue to contend that this one stands alone just fine. Bamboo splinters
under my fingernails won't make me say anything different.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (69 of 131), Read 89
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, February 06, 2001 08:21 PM
Mmm..I'm glad you made me look closer at the Consequential Data section,
Steve. This description of the "n-dimensional novel" is arresting. I especially
like that part about "...giving the impression of a book which is not travelling
from a tomb but standing above time and turning slowly on its axis to
comprehend the whole pattern." Actually, I'm not sure what he means by
"travelling from a tomb", but the rest of it certainly describes what I sense
from Justine and suspect from the description of the rest of the Quartet.
I remembered that Justine and Clea had been lovers and Justine had been
"...the one experience that marked me...." And, reading that last letter from
her, I thought of all the times that I had been disappointed when meeting
someone after a few years to find out that they had settled for what I felt to
be a cliche (sorry, I always forget how you told me to do the accent). But,
Clea initially seemed less judgmental, more open to other people's choices,
than I have ever been.
Your note to Dan about possibly not being knocked around enough by
relationships rings a bell with me, Steve. It occurred to me earlier that the
relationships in this novel seem less foreign to me than they do to some
others here. This is all much more interesting through Durrell's eyes and in
this exotic place. The characters are also more dynamic (I haven't ever known
anyone like Scobie...). But, these interwoven relationships carried on by
people who often can't resist the pull of being with that one different person
despite their supposed commitment elsewhere seem very familiar to me.
What is far from common is Durrell's artistry.
Barb
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (70 of 131), Read 92
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:14 AM
I'm about half through. I think this book is a prime example of the importance
of style. Not that there isn't any substance here, but it's the style that
elevates it to art, I think. Otherwise, we have a rather melodramatic set of
characters, in an exotic locale, playing out sexual dramas. Almost like a
Harlequin romance! I know, I'm vastly over-simplifying (and being a bit snarky
about it), but without Durrell's language, would this still be Justine? Without
Alexandria, would it work? Imagine this tale set in London, or New York.
Without the style, and the locale, we might find Justine as ignoble and
grating as many here found Kathy in House of Sand and Fog.
By style, I don't mean grammar, spelling and sentence structure (which are
more a courtesy to ones readers - reading something written without same is
like conversing with someone who insists on holding their hand in front of
their mouth and mumbling); I mean an appreciation of the value of words in
and of themselves, of how they work together; of the history they hold from
all the use to which each word has been put; and on and on. Durrell has this
in spades.
Is anyone here familiar with Jung and his archetypes? I have a feeling Durrell
is playing about with his characters in that way, but don't know enough to
draw any conclusions.
Theresa
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (71 of 131), Read 94
times
Conf:
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From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:06 AM
Yes, Theresa, you are dead on about Jung's archetypes, which were closely
related to gnosis and Gnosticism. The difference between "gnosis" and
"Gnosticism" is summed up nicely in the following quote:
"Gnosis is undoubtedly an experience based not in concepts and precepts,
but in the sensibility of the heart. Gnosticism, on the other hand, is the
world-view based on the experience of Gnosis. For this reason, in languages
other than English, the word Gnosis is often used to denote both the
experience and the world view"
( http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/gnintro.htm )
Note the reference to second and third century Alexandria towards the end
of the above article.
Perhaps the differences in gnosis of the readers of Justine accounts for our
very different Gnostic world views, as Steve and Barb have pointed out.
Another article I found said, "What made Jung's view radically different from
those of his predecessors was simply this: he believed that Gnostic teachings
and myths originated in the personal psychospiritual experience of the
Gnostic sages. What originates in the psyche bears the imprint of the psyche.
Hence the close affinity between Gnosticism and depth psychology. Jung's
view may thus be called an interpolation, but not an appropriation. The need
for definitions appears greater than ever in the light of such controversies."
That would account for Jung's collective unconscious, wouldn't it?
I found the following list of Gnosic tenets helpful in trying to sort through the
characters in Justine: ( http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/whatisgnostic.htm )
The Gnostics posited an original spiritual unity that came to be split into a
plurality.
As a result of the precosmic division the universe was created. This was done
by a leader possessing inferior spiritual powers and who often resembled the
Old Testament Jehovah.
A female emanation of God was involved in the cosmic creation (albeit in a
much more positive role than the leader).
In the cosmos, space and time have a malevolent character and may be
personified as demonic beings separating man from God.
For man, the universe is a vast prison. He is enslaved both by the physical
laws of nature and by such moral laws as the Mosaic code. (No idea what
that is. Will check it out.)
Mankind may be personified as Adam, who lies in the deep sleep of
ignorance, his powers of spiritual self-awareness stupefied by materiality.
Within each natural man is an "inner man," a fallen spark of the divine
substance. Since this exists in each man, we have the possibility of
awakening from our stupefaction.
What effects the awakening is not obedience, faith, or good works, but
knowledge.
Before the awakening, men undergo troubled dreams.
Man does not attain the knowledge that awakens him from these dreams by
cognition but through revelatory experience, and this knowledge is not
information but a modification of the sensate being.
The awakening (i.e., the salvation) of any individual is a cosmic event.
Since the effort is to restore the wholeness and unity of the Godhead, active
rebellion against the moral law of the Old Testament is enjoined upon every
man.6
I'm still a little hazy as to what all this means for Justine, but I'm working on
it.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (72 of 131), Read 97
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:12 AM
The following summary, when considered with the text of Justine, clarifies
much of the book for me:
"Gnosticism embraces numerous general attitudes toward life: it encourages
non-attachment and non-conformity to the world, a “being in the world, but
not of the world”; a lack of egotism; and a respect for the freedom and
dignity of other beings. Nonetheless, it appertains to the intuition and
wisdom of every individual “Gnostic” to distill from these principles individual
guidelines for their personal application."
Justine's search for meaning depended on others doing the work for her.
That's not what "gnosis" is about, if I'm reading the summary correctly. That
is a huge difference between her and the narrator, I think.
The narrator listened to the silence and moved forward. Justine was
intimidated by the silence and stalled. I do not see her stay on the kibbutz as
a cosmic event, indicating understanding.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (73 of 131), Read 74
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 08:24 AM
Steve: I think you're absolutely correct--I have led a certain charmed life. I've
watched my friends remain battered and bruised on the romance front,
seeking yet never finding what I found with the minimum of effort--a lifelong
soul-mate. When I met Suzanne, I knew right away my search (and I wasn't
even searching) was over.
And, as much as I hate to admit it, instead of truly sympathizing with my
30-something friends I've always secretly wondered: "What's wrong with
these people? If you enjoy art, literature and conversation you do what I
did--hang out in the library and one day your (Prince or Princess) will come.
You don't hang out in seedy bars drinking and smoking and screwing."
Your take has changed my whole approach to this novel--I've been looking at
these characters as shallow idiots awash in the very strata of society best
left alone. In effect, I was unable to make any sort of connection.
The style--as noted earlier--was exceptional, the use of symbols and
narrative techniques practically flawless--but the characters? I wondered why
waste a book on these guys. Personally, I found the barber the most
interesting character--loved the descriptions and the way he floated by the
ear whispering gossip like a little devil.
Now I understand. Part of the problem--and as a huge proponent of
reader-response I kick myself for not seeing it earlier--was me all along.
So, for art's sake, I will divorce my wife, have illicit liaisons with her bitter
single friends, and then re-read Justine. I think I have an opening between
grading lab reports on Saturday afternoon. Wish me luck.
Dan
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (74 of 131), Read 76
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:08 AM
You took my little rant in good humor, Dan, as I had hoped you would. Stay
with Suzanne. I just wanted to incite you to talk about the book a little.
Your reaction to the characters is perfectly legitimate. It appears to me that
you are saying something quite similar to Theresa's view of the characters. I
don't adamantly disagree with her view at all, and I am very interested in this
Jungian thing.
My own criticism would be of some of the plot contrivances he uses. One
example. This business of Nessim handing over these diaries to the narrator
to read, thus handily fixing him up with knowledge that he would not
otherwise have, strikes me as very artificial.
Kay, thank you for all your research. It's going to take me a little while to
digest it though.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (75 of 131), Read 74
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Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:32 AM
Dan'l: Like you, I've had good fortune in my personal relations and the
failures and yearnings of the characters in Justine can seem distant from that
perspective.
But Durrell looks at more than mere sexual love in this book. The narrator's
problem is not simply Melissa, but the passing of time and the changing of all
relationships. As Kay notes, the Gnostic notion of man as a prisoner of the
physical forces of the universe, tortured by them, and connected to
'goodness' only via intellect and imagination, is reflected here, too.
Durrell's love story is multi-dimensional ('n-dimensional'?) and encompasses
the loss of friends, of youth, of a time, of just a precious moment -- things
each as wonderful in their way as any passionate affair, and like such an
affair, inevitably disappearing into the abyss of time and memory, leaving the
narrator (and us) to sort through the blanks and fill them in, wondering with
a pain and bewilderment that is virtually indescribable, "How could this all
just be gone?"
I would suggest that no matter how happy any of us may be in a given
relationship or situation, there will come a time, sooner or later, when we
understand what Durrell is conveying on a visceral and not merely intellectual
level: the lover will leave. The friend will die. The time of happiness, or
perhaps just contentment, will be gone. And we will be left living, but also
strangely dead, trying to reconcile how we can continue to walk the earth
with such memories and such regret still living inside us.
True, Durrell focuses much on eroticism and sexual love. But there is enough
pain here to go around, no matter how well provided for we may be in that
one department.
Just my thoughts this morning after re-reading the last quarter of the novel
again last night.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (76 of 131), Read 74
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:52 AM
Isn't this what reading is all about in the first place? We take our own life
experiences (gnosis) and filter our perception through them. The trick is to
remain open to new information, so we can move forward to our "ultimate
Cosmic experience." Ha!
I think this is why I was so confused by Justine. My intellect was telling me
that the writing was superb, and my personal experiences were telling me
these characters , though searching hard, were missing the basics. I do
empathize with their loneliness and search for meaning. We all face that. The
catch is how we handle it.
My real problem was with their seeming inability to see that what they were
doing wasn't working. Instead of making the connection between their
behavior and their unhappiness, they continued to seek answers and comfort
from their secret club and its philosophy. It seemed to me that so much of
their time was spent in their heads, and not in their hearts. Emotions are
painful and scarey, and take courage to face up to.
I often find myself taking refuge in logic and intellect when I feel threatened
by something. My guess is, we all do, to some extent or another. It's a
proven defense for me, and has gotten me through some very rough spots.
But eventually, I had to deal with the feelings in order to move on.
Most of the Justine characters seem unable or unwilling to face up to that.
The narrator, Clea, and Melissa seem to have learned the most by the end of
this book.
The jury is still out on Justine, at least for me. My impatience with her rests
on the fact that she takes no prisoners in her personal quest for
understanding. I find that kind of knowledgeable manipulation for personal
gain a symptom of an unkind heart.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (77 of 131), Read 76
times
Conf:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:59 AM
An interesting aspect of this novel is that while it treats the condition of fairly
young people (I can't recall if specific ages are assigned to the narrator or
Cleta or Justine, but I have a distinct impression of youth), the author was
definitely middle-aged -- 45 when Justine was published.
And I think there is a distinctly middle-aged air of quietude, if not outright
melancholy, that pervades this book that is in sharp psychological contrast to
the temporal and psychological point of view we instinctively expect from the
lead characters.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (78 of 131), Read 72
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Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:07 AM
Dick-
"How could this all be gone" indeed. I don't have my book close at hand, but
one passage springs to mind. The Narrator is looking at the bed where he
and Melissa and he and Justine have spent many content hours. His pain at
the loss of those experiences is visceral to me.
So many times, I catch myself having the same kind of experience. "Oh, to
have that one moment in time again - just for a while."
The ache for times past hits so hard sometimes I almost stagger. Most of the
time, I'm moving about daily life with enthusiasm and a sense of brightness.
Then, I see someone who reminds me of my dad wandering the tools in
Sears, and BAM! Or, I see a young mother with her toddlers, and BAM! I want
to go back and have my own girls cuddly again.
Thanks for making this "life is flitting in nature" comment. That accounts for
the sense of poignancy I felt while reading a book where I didn't care for the
characters. Talk about confused! I can't remember reading another novel
where I've been so determined to seek meaning or purpose.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (79 of 131), Read 79
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:37 AM
I have read this book and followed this thread with an uneasiness. These
characters are so self absorbed and so completely intent on satisfying their
own emotional needs that they would not recognize 'love' if it stepped out
and tripped them. They seem to separate their little worlds from one another,
allowing others in only as a means of filling some lack in their own lives. No
wonder they seem to be filled with such an emptiness. To me, this is not a
book on love in any form but a book on emotional greed.
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (80 of 131), Read 76
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 11:55 AM
Oh, Beej. An ally! I was beginning to think I was talking to myself.
I reiterate: I do empathize with their existential angst, and their search for
meaning and happiness. I draw the line at their behavior. Amorality does not
work if one is seeking understanding and a sense of belonging.
That said, I think their unwillingness to seek answers in their hearts and in
regard to how they treat others is where a lot of that emptiness is coming
from. They rely too heavily on intellect as a defense from emotions, and are
thereby denying themselves progress towards a true "Cosmic revelation." To
reach a full understanding of ourselves, philosophy and emotions must be
integrated.
For me, this is the main faulty emphasis in Gnosticism. It's quite ok to deny a
perfect entity as having created the earth to explain pain and suffering and
emptiness. But when they use that as an excuse for amoral behavior, and
deny themselves the privilege of connecting with others emotionally as well
as intellectually, they are denying themselves the very behaviors that give a
sense of grounding and meaning.
Focusing on intellect ain't all it's cracked up to be in Gnosticism, in my opinion.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (81 of 131), Read 81
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:02 PM
I agree wholeheartedly, Kay..AMEN.
And thus lies my queasiness with this book. Not once did I sense anybody as
thinking.."What can I do to make this person I care about happier in life."
If this was Durrell's aim with this book. to point out what can happen when
emotions are divorced from intellect, then he was a raving success.
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (82 of 131), Read 77
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 12:19 PM
Beej-
I'm not sure what Durrell's intentions were. I think it's possible he meant this
as an intellectual exploration of life, which would be ok, except that I think
he's missing the essentials. I appreciate the book. The characterizations are
wonderfully drawn, and are quite vivid. I just haven't enjoyed it. In fact, it
has been disturbing for me. The emptiness is what I cannot seem to handle.
src="http://www.constantreader.com/sig/kappa_804.gif">
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (83 of 131), Read 77
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dean Denis (dddenis@iname.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:10 PM
(Only after my original post had I noticed that the thread had been shifted
over and that more messages followed. I am re-posting here and apologize
for the duplication.)
Steve, thank you for suggesting this book. I enjoyed it immensely.
I think, however, that the setting for this book is not Alexandria. I place the
setting inside the narrator’s mind at a time and place after he left Alexandria
where simultaneously with the narrator, we see memories which are still
painful for him but from which he is compelled to derive some sense. I felt
that this was the first time since they occurred that he is able to bring the
whole progression of events back to mind; events which have left him
wounded and still hurting.
In his efforts to make sense of these events, he interleaves into his
memories excerpts of the book written by Justine’s first husband. A book
which, I think, the narrator had read after Justine had left him. A book which
he sought in the same way that he sought out her perfume. But whereas the
perfume sweetened the pain, the book was an attempt to heal the wound
through some sort of understanding.
We are watching as the narrator begins to come to terms with his lingering
ache, like a man who can no longer ignore a broken leg and must try to set it
himself. To do this the narrator must have a clinical approach and we sense
this in the distance which we feel for the characters. That distance is also the
narrator’s, as it would increase his pain to get too close. But some pain is
inevitable and to bring up these memories is an act of courage for him. We
wince with him as he touches the frayed ends of his life in Alexandria but the
narrator is not without the analgesics of humour and intellect.
Thanks again, Steve, and, as I haven't read them yet, thank you also for
giving thoughts about the rest of the books in the Quartet so skilfully as to
give nothing away.
Dean
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (84 of 131), Read 80
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:13 PM
What several of you are describing as 'emptiness', I see as more as
'restraint'.
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (85 of 131), Read 82
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dean Denis (dddenis@iname.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:22 PM
Steve, I don't know if it helps but "fingerstall" reminds me of the prostitute
sitting in front of her stall with "a lap full of fingers."
Kay, Mosaic law is the law of Moses described in the first five books of the Old
Testament also called the Torah or Pentateuch. Thanks for the information
about "Gnosis."
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (86 of 131), Read 80
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:26 PM
Dick, please explain...I think I see what you mean..but...
what was the motive for this restraint? Was it self serving? Or was it a
means to avoid any emotional involvement?
And in truth, cannot the emptiness and restraint coincide? I do not think one
obliterates the other. I think the restraint is a means and the emptiness an
effect.
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (87 of 131), Read 77
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:26 PM
Dean-
Good point about the narrator. His pain is real, and is forcing him to face his
heart. My question to him becomes, then, "So how will you change the
relationships in your life to create a happier existence? What have you
learned, and will you use that knowledge?" I'm curious as to whether Durrell
answers that, or if he continues to report on life as a writer, not an individual.
The narrator is basically a good guy, I think. He's just lost, which is no crime.
The test will come in his future relationships, especially with the little girl.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (88 of 131), Read 78
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:31 PM
From what I can tell, the job of a true Gnostic is to explore all avenues -
intellectual and emotional - without restraint. Holding back is what creates
the divide among people.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (89 of 131), Read 82
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:40 PM
I mean 'restraint' in the sense that to fully appreciate a gourmet, 12-course
meal, you cannot simply fill your plate with the three sweetest and most
immediately satisfying dishes. Balance, nuance, expectation, anticipation, the
sense that even the most minor flavor should be savored as fully as the
strongest and that hunger is as much to be explored as satiety -- restraint in
that sense.
Obviously, based on this, I would suggest that a 'gourmet meal' might be a
metaphor for living, although what I've described here may seem more apt to
epicureanism than gnosticism (although, to be honest, I can't say I could
distinguish the two in a dark alley).
Dick In The 21st Century
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (90 of 131), Read 85
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:34 PM
I guess what I'm seeing here is a use of the word restraint as a means to
justify the uncaring, totally amoral and selfish behavior of these characters.
If I am wrong, please explain to me what you meant.
The only unselfish act I really saw was the narrator taking in Melissa's child,
but I suspect this was done though guilt and not through any really sense of
caring. I can admire restraint..however cold hearted using of others is
intolerable to me.
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (91 of 131), Read 86
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:43 PM
Dean,
Excellent observations. I especially liked what you said about the narrator
needing to keep some kind of distance because of the pain these people and
events had caused him. Towards the end of the book (p. 197, Penguin), the
narrator is musing on his failures with people which he says have "been
brought about by a gradually increasing detachment of spirit which, while it
freed me to sympathize forbad me possession." Intriguingly enough, he says
that his "detachment" is the part of him which Justine most wants to
possess. We could see him as naturally cold, but that kind of man would
never have visited Melissa's disgusting old lover in the hospital. I think you
are correct that his detachment grew from the pain.
Beej, you said you saw no characters in the book who ever asked
themselves, "What can I do to make this person I care about
happier in life." I think there was one--Nessim. Nessim allowed Justine to
cuckhold him unmercifully and even had her followed to make sure she was
safe. He built a wonderful summer place for her. Of course, even true love
has its limits.
Rereading passages reminds me that even when I don't agree with him,
Durrell can phrase thoughts in a way that forces me come to a complete stop
and see some truth in his assertions. For example, "a woman, a natural
possessive" or "women are sexual robbers."
Ann
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (92 of 131), Read 84
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:51 PM
Ann, Yes..Nessim...and yet doesn't Durrell almost paint him as pathetic for it?
As if it were a fault instead of a virtue?
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (93 of 131), Read 79
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 01:59 PM
Beej,
I can see how some might call him "pathetic", but I see him as tortured. I like
the end when Nessim appears to have turned into a stereotyped rich
playboy. The narrator remarks, "He had not really changed inside. He had
merely adopted a new mask."
Ann
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (94 of 131), Read 77
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 02:19 PM
I guess pathetic wasn't the right word..but it sort of hurt to think of him with
that telescope aimed at the beach where the narrator and Justine had sex..
sorrowful is maybe a better word..pitiable..better..wait a minute..you used
the right word, Ann...tortured...
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (95 of 131), Read 69
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 02:26 PM
Ann-
Interesting note on detachment during the narration as a means of sorting
through and distancing from pain. I have no problem with that as a coping
mechanism when overwhelmed.
My problem comes from the "restraint" during his affair with Justine. His
restraint from recognizing Nessim's obvious pain and doing something to stop
it. Nessim was a dear friend. The narrator was aware that his fling with
Justine wasn't going anywhere. He knew Justine sure as heck wasn't getting
anything sexual out of it. He knew that Justine was using him to sort through
her own demons, with no intention of giving back, ever. And yet, he tosses
aside his honor and friendship, just to get into bed with Justine. Oh yes. I
forgot. They were communicating on a very deep intellectual level. And we
know that can't be restrained.
I know passion can overwhelm, and I know its nigh impossible to stop.
However, I don't remember reading of any attempt to stop the affair. They
talked about the pain they were causing, and fretted about it, but took no
action. After all, Justine "needed" him. I'm not condemning the affair. I am
condemning the lack of responsibility for the pain they knowingly cause to
someone they both claim to love.
Justine sure did need the writer. She gobbled people up and spat them out
without much more than a casual, "Oh my - what pain I'm causing. Oh well -
can't help it. I'm on a quest for my soul. I had great, great troubles as a child,
and that excuses it all."
I know she was desperate to find inner peace, and I do empathize with that
kind situation. I can understand her desire to reach an understanding, and to
resolve her demons, but not at the cost of someone whom I think she does
love - Nessim. She was simply not capable of putting someone else first. She
did not know how. Nessim was her best shot for reaching a peaceful soul,
but she kept herself distant. That restraint is what caused much of her
distress. Of course, the trick is realizing that.
Beej-
Is that where you're coming from? The amorality and unkindness is not
excused just because someone is on a grand quest for a soul? It's an
explanation, not an excuse?
This novel has an incredible amount of things going on, and I find it
interesting that we all seem to have such strong views on the characters.
Again, I have to wonder at Durrell's purpose.
Was he trying to say that we can learn to create meaning through our
connections and considerations with others? Or, is he advocating staying
analytical and distanced, in order to understand our true selves? That it is
this vital intellectual understanding that is the purpose of life? Is this just a
vehicle to advocate the Gnostic life?
What, if anything, have the narrator and reader learned? I think the narrator
is gaining perspective on what occurred, but I'm not sure he'd do things
differently the next time around.
However, the letter from Clea holds out hope on that score. Here's his
chance for an asexual deep relationship with a woman. Hopefully, he will find
someone to share both the mental and the physical sides. He also has the
opportunity to bond with the child as she develops her own filtering gnosis.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (96 of 131), Read 73
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 02:35 PM
Kay, that is exactly where I am coming from..the restraint was so self serving
it was sickening..where was the restraint in sleeping with your best friend's
wife?
I believe the restraint, Dick, caused emptiness for these people...because the
ONLY restraint I saw for the most part was totally self serving..it fit each of
their personal agendas without concern for anyone else involved.
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (97 of 131), Read 72
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 02:39 PM
I think what distresses me about this novel is the emphasis on Alexandria as
a kind of amoral, anything goes excuse. "Well, it's Alexandria, what can you
expect?" seems to be the over riding message.
Does Durrell think that's the basic nature of Man? That because the world
was created from an imperfect being doing God's work, that we have this
kind of chaos in our lives? That the imperfection has created a world in which
we can't expect much more than a hopeful attempt at feeling grounded and
connected?
If so, that would explain why I cannot relate to the characters in this book.
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (98 of 131), Read 72
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 02:44 PM
Kay...that's what I mean by justification..Anybody can justify any choices in
order to placate his or her conscience.Its a most selfish form of deception.
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (99 of 131), Read 73
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 02:47 PM
Ann-
Yes, Nessim is tortured, and really never learns to handle his true feelings. I
like him, actually, and he doesn't use people for his own gain. Of course, he
does commit murder, which actually didn't distress me as much as the others.
Go figure. Maybe because he murdered for Justine's sake, as a means of
revenge for her? A totally selfless murder. Ah, what a guy.
And so I find myself in a kind of amoral interpretation, my own little
Alexandria.
Geesh - what a cast of characters and readers we have here! :-)
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (100 of 131), Read 83
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 02:50 PM
I agree with you in certain respects, Kay. The narrator's behavior is pretty
despicable, to use Dan's word, in several respects. In my warped view
sleeping with a friend's wife is a step up on the betrayal scale from sleeping
with a stranger's wife.
But there's more. He also signs on with the secret police to spy on his
friends!
How Durrell can keep my sympathy for this guy in the face of this kind of
conduct is some sort of artistry in itself.
Dick, I thought your long note was masterful. I really enjoyed it.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (101 of 131), Read 79
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 03:04 PM
No need to thank me, Dean. I never act out of any motive other than
self-interest. I am in heaven here now in this discussion that includes notes
like your very sensitive one. And contrary to appearances, I certainly have no
problem abiding great differences of opinion about the book.
Ann, I can't believe you quoted these two phrases about women in the
manner you did. What's gotten into you? I think you should take your
temperature right now.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (102 of 131), Read 81
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 03:21 PM
Kay, But did Nessim murder to avenge Justine or did he murder because of
the havoc Justine's childhood played on his marriage?
Who was he avenging? Himself or Justine?
And yet, he is likeable..what a dichotomy..
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (103 of 131), Read 79
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 03:28 PM
Wait a minute, here..didn't Steve say Capodistria is not really dead, or am I
dreaming? hmm...coupled with Justine's disappearance makes this not too
pretty a picture..
I need to re-read through these posts and see if I dreamt that.
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (104 of 131), Read 78
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 03:32 PM
No, no, Beej. Forget that I said that. Your questions about Nessim's motives
are perfectly legitimate right here in the context of this novel.
I considered that he was avenging himself.
You find a mention of a fingerstall in this book other than on the last page?
It's bugging me.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (105 of 131), Read 71
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beej Connor (connorva@mindspring.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 03:42 PM
Thanks..I was having one helluva time finding that post of yours..
Well, I guess I'm driven on to do what I told myself I would not do...read the
other three of the quartet...
What is it that draws us to the despicable side of life?
I have been trying to find more on this fingerstall business..
Beej
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (106 of 131), Read 69
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Steve Warbasse (wk4@qwest.net)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 03:44 PM
That's easy. Despicableness is more fun to read about.
Steve
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (107 of 131), Read 64
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 04:39 PM
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Perhaps Nessim's murder of Capodistria (I'm going to pretend I don't =know
he's still kickin') had a little revenge for what C. had supposedly =done to
Justine, AND for what implications the Check had for his =marriage.
Does Durrell mean for us to like these folks, or not? Emapthy is one =thing.
Liking and respecting is quite another. And perhaps Durrell is =saying a
Gnostic, "Whatever."
Oh, geez. I really don't want to read the rest of the quartet, but I'm
=intrigued. See what you all have done?!
Kay
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Perhaps Nessim's murder of =Capodistria (I'm
going to pretend I don't know he's still kickin') had a little revenge =for what
C. had supposedly done to Justine, AND for what implications the Check =had
for
his marriage.
Does Durrell mean for us to like =these
folks, or not? Emapthy is one thing. Liking and respecting =is quite
another. And perhaps Durrell is saying a
Gnostic, "Whatever."
Oh, geez. I really don't =want to read
the rest of the quartet, but I'm intrigued. See what you all have
done?!
Kay
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Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (108 of 131), Read 60
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dean Denis (dddenis@iname.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 04:35 PM
Kay, the way I see it, all of the rationalizations for the behaviour of the
characters are all the narrator's. They are his attempt to deal with what
happened. He is looking for a way to make it make sense for him. If you are
unsure of the lesson perhaps there is some consolation in knowing that the
narrator is searching also.
Ann, that's a very good point about the narrator maintaining a distance while
he was with Justine. I think that someone has already said that he was
trying to emulate Pursewarden (a name that shouts "restraint") so that he
could write better. In the end, the narrator realizes that he felt far more than
even he had realized. Indeed, he had hidden his feelings from himself so that
he could continue his relationships with his art, with Justine, with Melissa,
with Nessim. I wonder if even he knew the order of importance?
Topic:
FEBRUARY DISCUSSION: Justine by Lawrence Durrell (109 of 131), Read 59
times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, February 07, 2001 05:43 PM
Dean-
My suspicion is that the lesson I gleaned is not necessarily what Durrell
intended. I'm curious as to his point, as I don't think he and I ascribe to the
same philosophy.
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Lawrence Durrell biography
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