Amazon.com:
Having never seen the famous 1970s television series based on Graves' historical novel of ancient Rome and being generally uneducated about matters both ancient and Roman, I wasn't prepared for such an engaging book. But it's a ripping good read, this fictional autobiography set in the Roman Empire's days of glory and decadence. As a history lesson, it's fabulous; as a novel it's also wonderful. Best is Claudius himself, the stutterer who let everyone think he was an idiot (to avoid getting poisoned) but who reveals himself in the narrative to be a wry and likable observer. His story continues in Claudius the God.
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (15 of 37),
Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, May 31, 2001 08:16 AM
I've copied these messages from a thread in Reading List
Books to keep all the discussion together. Hope no one
minds.
David
---------------------------------
From: Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 07:13 PM
And I thought modern politics were suspect!
For a summarized version of the events/relationships
related in I, Claudius:
http://www.vroma.org/~bmcmanus/augustus.html
If you scroll down to 4CE you'll find a family tree and an
even more thorough geneaology.
I can't get over the research that went into this book.
Already have Claudius the God and the PBS videos on
reserve.
K
From: Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 07:38 PM
Another informative site:
http://www.roman-empire.net/index.html
The "Emperors, Leaders, Famous Romans" section has
busts of the various players in I, Claudius, along with short
biographies.
I also enjoyed playing with the interactive maps.
K
From: Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date: Thursday, May 31, 2001 02:01 AM
Does anyone else find themselves wishing this book had
an index, so that when some minor character suddenly
pops up after lengthy absence, one could look up the first
appearance and get a fix on him/her?
I am fluxing between hot and cold on this book. 100 pages
to go before the final verdict.
Theresa
From: Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date: Thursday, May 31, 2001 08:04 AM
I experienced the same thing, Theresa, but ended up on
the hot side when it finished up. Not so much for the
writing, but for the tremendous amount of information and
intrigue contained within its pages. I know it's fiction, but
it's based on actual events. It's really a history lesson,
disguised as a novel. That's the aspect that fired my
imagination.
I'm curious as to how much imagination was used to fill in
the gaps between facts. Obviously, the conversations were
made up, but how much of the who did what to whom and
why was Graves' own creation?
He lost me at the beginning, with all the adoptions, births,
remarriages, cousins, etc. but I'm glad I stuck with it for the
intrigue.
Livia is a real piece of work, isn't she?
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (16 of 37),
Read 44 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, May 31, 2001 08:23 AM
Yes, Claudius was certainly a master at making people
lower their expectations of him. Wonder why no one uses
that technique today?
David
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (17 of 37),
Read 44 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, May 31, 2001 12:48 PM
I think Claudius was more interested in survival than in
ruling. He enjoyed being in the know, yet removed from the
action. Being considered an idiot did wear on him at times,
though.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (18 of 37),
Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, May 31, 2001 03:39 PM
I have to confess I threw Claudius over for Harry Angstrom.
The writing just failed to engage me. Leaden.
OTOH, I highly recommend the PBS series.
Ruth
"Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry---all of it---is a trip
into the unknown." Vladimir Mayakovsky
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (19 of 37),
Read 45 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, May 31, 2001 05:58 PM
I'm loving this book! I'm wondering why I'm having a
different reaction from some of you. It's hard to keep
everyone straight, but I've just given up on that and am
doing the best I can. The history is fascinating and I like
the character of Claudius. What an incredible schemer Livia
is, much more Machiavellian than Machiavelli! I'm on page
150 and just finished the games set up to honor Claudius
and Germanicus' father. What surreal scenes, the one
between the rhino and the elephant especially. I also loved
the stuff about the historian, Livy, and am trying to
remember why I know about him.
Interesting information about the way the way marriage
was viewed by Augustus and the legal ways the women
got out of losing all of their property to their husbands.
My husband and I are going to Europe this summer and will
be in Rome. I'm hoping that some of this history will still be
in my head when we get there.
Barb
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (20 of 37),
Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, May 31, 2001 06:11 PM
Barb and all, after this book I'm sure you'd enjoy the
Roman portrait busts at the Uffizi. You'll meet a whole cast
of famous Romans. And they'll look pretty much as they
actually looked, warts and all.
Ruth
"Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry---all of it---is a trip
into the unknown." Vladimir Mayakovsky
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (21 of 37),
Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, May 31, 2001 07:18 PM
Finished this novel a week ago and loved it. In fact, I
started reading a history of Rome by Chester G. Starr in his
A History of the Ancient World.
Starr of course delves deeply in the "Augustan Age," which
is interesting after reading Graves' novel; you keep waiting
for the intrigue, but Starr just concentrates on the culture
and politics.
Here's some snippets I found particularly interesting...
Especially [Augustus] sought by blandishment, by the simple
tone of his life with Livia, and by legislation against celibacy
and adultery and in favor of child-bearing to restrict the
self-destruction of the upper classes. These laws, from 18 BC
on, were consolidated by the Papian-Poppaean code of AD 9
(named after the two bachelor consuls of the year!)
*******
While this area was being reconquered, a worse disaster
occurred in the forested, loosely held wilds of Germany. In AD
9 the governor P. Quinctilius Varus was sucked into a trap in
the Teutoburger forest by Arminius, who had learned the
military art as a Roman auxiliary commander. Three legions
were wiped out, Varus committed suicide, and all Germany
was lost.
************
...of the first 12 Caesars, 7 met violent ends. Still, the
troubles at Rome rarely had any repercussions in the
provinces. For the Roman Empire as a whole the era from AD
14 [time of Augustan's death] to 180 (the death of Marcus
Aurelius) was the most peaceful and secure that the ancient
Mediterranean world ever experienced.
********
The historians and other authors who lived in the Empire
were most interested in the series of emperors, particularly
their peccadilloes, and in their relations with the upper
classes. These varied from open murder and assassination to
relieved harmony. As a result, the conventional pictures of
many emperors are incredible caricatures: Tiberius (14-37),
for instance, is stamped as a gloomy, suspicious old man who
is nonetheless capable of the wildest orgies at his retreat on
Capri; Claudius (41-54) is the wife-ridden fool; the esthete
Nero (54-68) has become an archetype of Satan; Marcus
Aurelius (161-80) is the perfect philosopher-king.
Still, I found Graves' narrative engrossing. It provides
insight into a time many, myself included, seemed to know
so little except the caricatures Starr mentions.
As for a bibliography, Starr never mentions I, Claudius,
though he does mention Robert Graves' translation of
Apuleius' Golden Ass. So he must of been doing some
research for his novel at the time...
Dan
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (22 of 37),
Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, May 31, 2001 08:14 PM
Thanks for all of the background history, everyone. After
reading the excerpts in Dan's note, I've gone back and
read some of the internet sites that were linked earlier and
will go back again when I'm finished with the book.
Fascinating stuff.
Barb
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (23 of 37),
Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, June 01, 2001 01:38 PM
Barb-
I was so caught up in the intrigue that I just let the family
relationships meander where they would.
I wish the prose were better written, but the last 2/3 of
the book made up for it. The novel is one long gossip
session.
I thought that the Romans' interest in seeing the pyramids
and Sphinx was interesting. They seemed to view them as
ancient monuments, which really put them into perspective
as antiquities for me.
Also, I'd never considered Egypt's importance as a source
of grain and wealth for Rome. I'd always thought it was
just another place to conquer.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (24 of 37),
Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, June 01, 2001 02:07 PM
Kay: That's exactly the thing that intrigued me about this
novel--it makes you feel as if you are a fellow Roman
listening to Claudius spill the beans on what's really been
going on.
Consider the age of the United States as a nation and
compare it to the age of Rome. For Claudius, there was a
Rome well over 200 years before his time and there would
still be a Rome well over 200 years after his time. It
reminds me of European friends who roll their eyes on
tours where Americans huddle together in a Plantation and
get bug-eyed when the tour-guide says, "And this is over
150 years old." For some Europeans, that's modernity.
I'm buying Claudius the God in order to find out what
happens next. I found out from Starr that Claudius was the
first emperor to boot the Christian sects out of the city.
Dan
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (25 of 37),
Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:27 AM
Interesting, Dan. Where did you read that - on the Net,
perhaps? I'd like to know the site, if you can find it again.
As I was reading, I was trying to assimilate the fact that
Christ was walking the earth. The Roman reaction to him is
made more understandable after reading about their
mindset.
I'm off to collect Claudius the God, as well.
Robert Graves used Tacitus' "Annals of Rome" as his basis
for his Claudius books.
For more info on Claudius:
http://www.roman-empire.net/emperors/claudius-index.html
There are some interesting tidbits on ancient Rome and its
leaders in the "Tempus" site, which can be reached from:
http://www.i-claudius.com/
I'm afraid I'm off on a new reading kick.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (26 of 37),
Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 02, 2001 04:25 PM
Kay posted this over in Reading List Books:
"I just read the summary of WFTB from the log on page
and was struck by its apt juxtaposition with "I, Claudius."
"....his situation is that of all men living in unbearable
complicity with regimes that ignore justice and decency."
"That is Claudius' dilemma in a nutshell. Ha!"
And, as I mentioned, this struck me as well. Now, Claudius
did many good things, and occasionally put himself in
danger. But could it be said that his essential reaction to
an evil regime was to follow orders and concentrate on
keeping himself safe, rather than engaging in active
protest?
David
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (27 of 37),
Read 37 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 02, 2001 07:21 PM
David,
So far, it appears to me that Claudius had a full time job
just trying to keep himself alive.
I checked out some entries on Robert Graves in
Contemporary Authors at the library today. His real love
was poetry, not prose. Ruth, if you're still following the
discussion, have you ever read his poetry, and if so what
do you think of it?
Although the prose in I, Claudius is not the least poetic,
IMHO the novel is very well written.
CA indicated that Graves did serious research for his novels
and knew a great deal about his subjects. He came up with
some rather unorthodox conclusions, such as deciding that
Claudius was actually a savvy ruler rather than a fool and
declaring that Jesus did not die when he was crucified.
Specialists criticized him on the details, but others felt that
he had got the general atmosphere of ancient Rome right.
Of course, he took dramatic license at times. This was a
novel, not a history. He did, at any rate, succeed in making
this whole period of history come alive for many of us, and
I think that is a remarkable achievement.
Ann
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (28 of 37),
Read 43 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 02, 2001 07:39 PM
Not familiar with his poetry, Ann. I thought the prose in this
book was particularly leaden and dull. But then I didn't give
it too much of a chance before I got sucked away into the
Rabbit series. I've had a touch with Roman history in
learning about the art. Not that I know who's who without
a scorecard, but I got something of a feel for the temper of
it.
Ruth
"Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry---all of it---is a trip
into the unknown." Vladimir Mayakovsky
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (29 of 37),
Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@pacbell.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 02, 2001 09:48 PM
Did someone say that the more things change, the more
they remain the same? The important lesson I got out of
this book was that war, chaos, murder, etc., is not unique
to our age. The problems the Romans faced are neither
new nor unknown to us. Have we not seen extreme
(deadly) competition between power figures. Did we in the
US have political leaders murdered, slanderer.
The unfortunate lesson seems to be that human nature
changes but little over the centuries. Isn't it strange how
at that time German and Yugoslavian tribes were either
fighting each other or the Romans. Yes, there were
peaceful periods, but they never lasted very long.
Claudius was told at an early age to use his disabilities as
assets mainly to protect himself. He was quite clever in
doing so, except he could not stay away from history.
Sometimes the non-participants in political and military
turmoil are not only fortunate but also the most
constructive in teaching us history and the unfortunate
nature of man.
Ernie
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (30 of 37),
Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 02, 2001 10:15 PM
In the introduction, there's something about Graves
attempting to replicate Claudius own writing style; can't
remember exactly what it said.
I'm on the home stretch, 50 pages to go. I keep going back
to this book, because I really, really want to find out what
happens next. But it's such a chore to read!!
My next dilemma; I'll probably want to read the sequel, just
to find out, of course, what happens next. But am I willing
to pay the price of slogging through all those pages?
Theresa
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (31 of 37),
Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 03, 2001 07:11 AM
Theresa-
I hear your pain. I've decided I'm too much a soap opera
fan to deny myself the inside information on what's going
on at the palace. I picked up Claudius the God and His Wife
Messalina yesterday. Those poison mushrooms were
beckoning......
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (32 of 37),
Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 03, 2001 07:34 AM
Dan-
I found further information on Claudius and the Christians
in the foreword to Claudius the God. Graves states that,
"...I have been particularly careful in my account of early
Christianity to invent no new libels; but some old ones are
quoted, for Claudius himself was not well-disposed to the
Church and derived most of his information about
near-Eastern religious matters from his old school-friend
Herod Agrippa, the Jewish king who executed St. James
and imprisoned St. Peter."
Graves also lists 24 original sources, including Claudius'
own letters and speeches as his research base for IC and
CTG. Claudius wrote in Greek, which explains his careful
explanation of Latin jokes.
I find this whole matter fascinating.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (33 of 37),
Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 03, 2001 01:44 PM
At the end of IC, I found Claudius to be a survivor, and not
much more. He was more of a reporter than a player, and
I'm curious to see how he survives the 13 years as
Emperor before being poisoned by Messalina. He doesn't
strike me as a decisive man, nor does he seem to have the
mindset to be an active player by the end of IC. However,
he must have done something right to survive as long as
he did.
Many have described him as a fool or a devious fool, but I
don't see a player, with the necessary survival skills. He
can't hide as Emperor.
I see a man trying to dodge all comers and survive in the
background. I give him full credit for achieving that, but he
did it by staying hidden. He did take a chance by sending
money to Germanicus, so he did have integrity. His
observational powers are good, and that might be helpful
to him. He also seems to have a grasp of how the game is
played and who's who among the players. I have to
wonder, though, how Claudius reconciles his strong
Republican beliefs with his being Emperor.
What traits do you see in Claudius that would keep him
hale and hearty in the palace?
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (34 of 37),
Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 03, 2001 02:21 PM
I own a copy of Robert Graves' little book Contemporary
Techniques of Poetry: A Political Analogy which I read years
ago. Reading the Claudius series, I'm not surprised to find
Graves mixing poetry and politics in criticism.
Graves obviously was well read in the Augustan literature
and that helps in pulling this novel off. I noticed yesterday
at the store that he even has a novel entitled Jesus Christ
which is done in a similar vein. There is a note of
controversy with this one (is anyone really surprised?), but
after reading Starr's account of the rise of Christianity and
knowing Graves does excellent research, I can't wait to dig
into it as well.
Let's return to David's comment earlier: Though we're
caught up in his narrative web, does Claudius place his
own skin above the good of those around him and his
country at large? The very qualities he admires in
Germanicus (integrity, honesty, trust) certainly result in
Germanicus' death, but at least Germanicus burns bright
and is a shining and inspirational example for a time.
Claudius stays in the shadow playing stupid.
The scene that sticks in my mind is when Claudius plays
the foolish bouncer and beating people at Caligula's
prostitution party. He relishes beating his former critics, but
he seems to be demeaning himself not for the good of
Rome (by this time he isn't holding anything secret any
longer, such as the evidence that the exiled guy was
framed and was innocent) but just to remain alive.
Is this just the memoirs of Claudius the Coward?
Dan
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (35 of 37),
Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 03, 2001 05:59 PM
Dan-
I don't think he's a coward so much as obsessed with
survival, though some of Claudius' actions might suggest
otherwise. Even his hiding behind a curtain when the
Praetorian guards come looking for him after Caligula's
assassination is understandable. He had never been
trained for warfare and physically couldn't protect himself.
A very different portrait arises once he's in power, and I
find myself respecting him more.
What privileges did a citizen have as opposed to a
freedman? I'm curious as to why so many were willing to
grant freedom to their slaves, unless it was a reward for
good service. But that doesn't fit with what I've learned
about the Roman way of thinking.
Also, what rationale did the Romans use when they would
decide to deify someone like Augustus? If it took a vote
from the Senate, it couldn't be that of assuming the
Emperor descended from a god or goddess. If that were
the case, all Emperors would be deified.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (36 of 37),
Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 03, 2001 07:41 PM
Kay,
Judging from the deification of Augustus, there had to be a
supernatural sign. Allegedly a cloud came down while his
funeral pyre was burning and his soul ascended into
heaven.
Ann
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (37 of 37),
Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 04, 2001 07:12 AM
Oh, that's right, Ann. Thanks.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (38 of 39),
Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Tuesday, June 05, 2001 01:58 AM
Was anyone else reminded of I, Claudius when reading
news reports of the carnage in Nepal? Who do you think
REALLY pulled the trigger there (probably Livia, reaching out
from beyond the grave!)
Theresa
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (39 of 39),
Read 15 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 05, 2001 06:32 AM
No, I hadn't thought of that, Theresa, but I sure do wish ol'
Claudius could report on it.
Who benefited, in addition to the new king?
The report I read said there is a lot of political unrest in
Nepal, with "Maoist insurgency" factors.
I don't think I'd want to be in the royal family at this point.
This just proves Augustus' and Tiberius' point of not shifting
to a Republican government. The king had ceded total
power to a constitutional one in 1990. And just look what
happened.... HA!
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (40 of 44),
Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 05, 2001 01:29 PM
Theresa,
Good question. I think there was more to it than one
deranged prince. The whole incident does make I, Claudius
seem eerily contemporary.
Ann
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (41 of 44),
Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 05, 2001 02:21 PM
If I had to lay money on a bet, I'd say the new king,
Gyanendra, played a role.
1) He wasn't at the dinner, due to "illness" and his son left
early.
2) The opposition party has refused to be a part of the
investigation. It claims constitutional laws are not being
observed. Of course, this could simply be a play for further
allegiance from the rioters.
3) Gyanendra tried to explain the massacre as an
"accidental explosion of an automatic weapon -- an
explanation described as implausible by ballistics experts."
4) Gyanendra's son is considered a lout by the Nepalese.
Remember - he was at the dinner party.
Sounds fishy to me.
Claudius - we need you! I, Claudius has turned me into a
conspiracy believer. Ha!
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010605/ts/nepal_leadall_dc_7.html
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (42 of 44),
Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, June 05, 2001 03:32 PM
Kay, my impression is that you are exactly right.
Ruth
"Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry---all of it---is a trip
into the unknown." Vladimir Mayakovsky
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (43 of 44),
Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@neteze.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 05, 2001 08:43 PM
Dan says:
"Graves obviously was well read in the Augustan literature
and that helps in pulling this novel off"
Graves translated The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius and
Pharsalia by Lucan for Penguin Classics. He also
collaborated with someone else on The Greek Myths (also
Penguin) which gives all the variants of a particular myth in
Greek and Roman literature, or so I think I remember.
In the course of checking some of this out I came across
the following in Roman Readings by Michael Grant, a Pelican
book: Of the present age's failure to appreciate Lucan,
Grant says, "This is partly because our century, with its
unusual distaste for the purple patch, is ill-fitted to
recognize at least some of his great qualities. Nevertheless,
in the opinion of Robert Graves, this failure of contact is
only temporary: since Lucan's 'modernist traits - impatience
with craftsmanship, digressive irrelevances, emphasis on
the macabre, lack of religious conviction, turgid hyperbole,
inconsistency, appeal to violence - have been rediscovered
by this new, disagreeable world.'"
Lucan (AD 39-65) Epic Poet, considered himself the equal or
better of Virgil, was admired by Nero and was an intimate.
But Graves also says that the hostility that L showed N "is
still notorious." Lucan loved his wife dearly; she had "youth,
beauty, wealth, virtue, and intellect to commend her". L
was involved in a conspiracy against N and when
discovered was allowed to commit suicide - at age 25.
A normal Roman life.
Graves also writes: "I remember that his (L's) poems were
published by all sorts of editors, reputable and
disreputable, and even lectured on by professors of
rhetoric."
And for six degrees of separation: the Roman Readings
introduction to Lucan also cites a remark by A.E. Houseman,
classical scholar and poet, subject of the play, Invention of
Love, whose lead actor won a Tony on Sunday night and
showed how a real actor gives an acceptance speech.
pres
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (44 of 44),
Read 6 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 06, 2001 09:09 AM
pres: Thanks for the fascinating background.
I came across this quote in Claudius the God which has a
bearing on (I believe it was) Ruth's contention that while
the facts of I, Claudius are interesting the writing is dull and
dry:
Herod had read [my] History of Carthage--he was not
interested in the subject of Etruria--and said that he had
learned a lot from it about the Phoenician character; but that
he did not think that many people would have the same
interest in it as he had. "There's too much meat in that
sausage," he said, "and not enough spices and garlic." He
meant that there was too much information in it and not
enough elegant writing.
Seems to me, Graves is being self-reflective here and
making a semi-veiled comment on I, Claudius, which does fit
Herod's sausage metaphor. The writing is filled with facts
and characters and inattention to details can lead a reader
astray.
However, in Claudius the God Graves has Claudius loosen
up a bit and do some real focused storytelling. There's more
dialogue and vision in this sequel. For me, this results in a
much more satisfying read than the first one. Here is that
rare case where the sequel is better than the first.
Dan
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (45 of 93), Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 06, 2001 01:11 PM
Kay,
Ah, ha --the plot thickens. Those Nepalese commoners know something after
all.
Pres,
Thanks for the information. Graves was quite a scholar, wasn't he? He
certainly knew far more about the setting of his historical novels than most
writers of the genre.
Dan,
Okay, you convinced me. It's onto the sequel, as soon as I finish I, Claudius.
It seems to me that this novel centers so much around characterization and a
very complicated plot that there isn't much room for elegant writing. Can
anyone think of a novel which concentrates on these two things, but also
exhibits beautiful (i.e., elegant, striking) language throughout?
Ann
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (46 of 93), Read 57 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 06, 2001 03:43 PM
I just finished "Claudius the God and His Wife Messalina."
The focus is Claudius' accomplishments, including an aqueduct, legal changes,
and his conquest of Britain. He discusses his personal conflict with being a
monarch when he believes so strongly in a Republic.
Claudius is the only one in the entire Roman Empire that doesn't see the
parallel between Livia and his wife, Messalina. And then there's
Agripinilla..............
King Herod plays a role, and there's a lot of talk about a fellow who many
claim is the Messiah. It is interesting to see what a small blip Christ caused in
Roman politics.
I found this book easier to read from the start, though I did get bogged
down in a couple of places. The battle that won Britain was fascinating
reading.
Last night, I saw a program that showed what remains of Claudius'
aqueduct. Truly an amazing feat.
I'll confess to a sense of loss when he meets his end.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (47 of 93), Read 62 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 06, 2001 04:47 PM
While I'm not as far as you, Kay, I gather you enjoyed Claudius the God?
The way the two novels fit together--the one picking up just where the other
leaves off--seems that reading only the first one is only getting half the story.
On the down side, I noticed in Claudius the God a greater tendency to render
conversations between historical figures; conversations peppered with
aphorisms and allusions to historical lessons that I would think most Romans
wouldn't bother expressing. In some ways, this dialogue tends to blemish
the historical mirror Graves constructs with Claudius' supposed
autobiography.
Dan
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (48 of 93), Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 07, 2001 09:00 AM
Yes, I did enjoy it, Dan. Graves makes the era come alive. It fascinates me to
think that what we see as remains were once such an accepted part of
everyday life.
For Claudius, ridding Rome of Jews and Christians was nothing more than an
attempt to punish those that refused to respect the Roman way of life.
There's something about knowing the impact Christ had on history and
comparing that to how He was seen by officials that is intriguing. Claudius'
summation of the myth after Christ's death sounded just like the other
Roman myths. Graves makes people like King Herod and Pontius Pilate real.
I thought it interesting how Claudius just gave up after he discovered
Messalina's betrayals. I'll wait until you've finished to say more.
The "reports" by Seneca and others after his death were a treat, as well. I
particularly enjoyed the story of his trip to Hell and Mount Olympus. Augustus
seemed to be carrying a grudge.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (49 of 93), Read 48 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, June 11, 2001 01:36 PM
I am closing in on the end of I, Claudius and at this point I am longing for the
good old days when Livia was in charge. Didn't anyone in the line of
succession get to die a natural death?
I am also curious about Tiberius's horrible depravities. Claudius keep telling
us how disgusting they were, but I'd like to be able to judge for myself, if you
know what I mean. :)
Ann
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (50 of 93), Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 11, 2001 02:01 PM
LOL, Ann.
Seriously, though, I imagine that Tiberius was rebelling against Augustus'
stern moral and legal beliefs and Livia's detailed management of his life. The
combination of privilege, power, and rage led to a life of dissolution.
I've been watching the PBS I, Claudius series. In them, Tiberius is portrayed
as a weak, manipulated man. He's caught between what he knows to be
right and what he's politically compelled to do. His forced divorce from
Vipsania and successive marriage to Julia made him very bitter towards Livia.
A friend told me that Colleen McCullough has written a series about ancient
Rome. Has anyone read them?
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (51 of 93), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 11, 2001 03:40 PM
Finished up Claudius the God and His Wife Messalina and I just want to say this
has been a most satisfying read. I did not realize I had such a gap in my
historical knowledge.
Kay: I think you're right. Once Claudius discovers what is going on in his
palace he just gives up. Still, my heart did go out to him when he allowed
Britannicus to stay in Rome. After all he had been through, it was so hard for
him to allow his son to deliberately enter the fray.
I also love the final essay by Seneca--satire that would have been entirely
lost on me without Graves' account under my belt. A fantastic finish from an
actual contemporary of Claudius' time.
This morning I picked up The Twelve Caesars by the Roman historian
Suetonius. I had to choose between this one and several others--Tacitus'
was incomplete and Plutarch was too biased and expensive. According to the
back blurb, Suetonius "gathered much of his information from eye witnesses,
checking his facts carefully and quoting conflicting evidence without bias."
Sounds good to me.
As an added boon, I discovered when I got home that this work was
translated by none other than Robert Graves.
Dan
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (52 of 93), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dean Denis (dddenis@iname.com)
Date:
Monday, June 11, 2001 04:18 PM
I have read the first book in the series, "The First Man In Rome" and enjoyed
it very much. Colleen McCollough does a good job of presenting details of
daily life in Rome while developing the characters and their stories.
The novel relates the political career of Gaius Marius including his rise to
consulship in 105BCE and again in 107BCE. In addition, we are introduced to
his family and friends and we follow each as e makes er way through the
challenges of living in Rome.
Ms. McCollough gives excellent detail about domestic, military, political,
commercial, social and romantic situations.
What most surprised me was the complexity of the political system. It is a bit
daunting but the author does her best to show the details through the
actions of the characters, sometimes humourous, sometimes lethal. A
glossary is provided and does come in handy.
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (53 of 93), Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 11, 2001 08:50 PM
Thanks, Dean. I'm off to reserve "The First Man in Rome." I hope our library
has all four books, or my bank account is going to suffer. I don't know exactly
what it is that has attracted me so much, but this is proving quite a reading
kick.
Dan-
I've also eyed "The Twelve Caesars," and will give it a try.
Ann-
I've also got the David Marouf book on order at Waldenbooks.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (54 of 93), Read 48 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 12, 2001 06:31 AM
There's an interesting essay by Gore Vidal on Robert Graves' translation of
Twelve Caesars, complete with a rather bloody painting. Interesting essay.
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/desolation/gore-vidal.html
Dan
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (55 of 93), Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 12, 2001 08:21 AM
Interesting, indeed, Dan. Our library does not have the Graves translation of
The Twelve Caesars, so I'll have to buy a copy. Oh well. I'll just regard this
whole ancient Rome business as a new collection for my permanent shelves.
Everyone needs a hobby.
I'm amazed at all that Graves has written, including the siege of Troy and
Greek myths. He even has a novel entitled "King Jesus" which I'll probably
check out.
He was a remarkable historian and author, wasn't he?
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (56 of 93), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, June 12, 2001 10:41 AM
The painting is a detail from Caravaggio's Judith Slaying Holofernes.
Ruth
"We are each of us like our little blue planet, hung in black space, upheld by
nothing but our mutual reassurances, our loving lies." John Updike
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (57 of 93), Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 12, 2001 03:44 PM
Thanks, Ruth. Now who was Judith and why did she kill Holofernes?
Kay: I mentioned the Jesus Christ novel a while back and I'm glad someone
else is intrigued. I found Graves' Claudius the God revealed quite an interest
in the origins of Christianity. Given his research, I'm not surprised Graves
would tackle Christ next. I plan on reading it and, if it holds up to par,
nominating it for CR next year. From what I gather from a discussion of Job
that occurred before I found CR, this place gets real busy when religion
comes up.
Dan
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (58 of 93), Read 49 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, June 12, 2001 04:02 PM
Judith was a Jewish heroine. During a siege of a Jewish city by the Assyrians,
she snuck into the general, Holofernes, camp with her maid, set up a
seduction scene, got him drunk and whopped off his head. What this has to
do with Roman Caesars, I dunno.
Ruth
"We are each of us like our little blue planet, hung in black space, upheld by
nothing but our mutual reassurances, our loving lies." John Updike
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (59 of 93), Read 49 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 12, 2001 04:08 PM
Ruth: An answer in under ten minutes! God I love CR.
The guy's main website also has some stuff on Jocephus' Jerusalem War
series--the painting was obviously intended for that material, evidently.
Dan
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (60 of 93), Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@neteze.com)
Date:
Tuesday, June 12, 2001 07:07 PM
Little ol' cynic me: I think the publisher thought that his readers wouldn't
know the difference and that the painting was both "classical" enough and
gory enough for its purpose - attract the buyers.
pres
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (61 of 93), Read 45 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (eelin@althor.fsnet.co.uk)
Date:
Wednesday, June 13, 2001 04:32 PM
Kay,
I read all the 5 books in Colleen McCullough's series on Rome years ago and
enjoyed them very much. It took a while to remember the names of the
characters and to get the social setting straight, but once this settled into
the memory cache, it was pretty good going. However, I remember being a
little disappointed with the style of the last one. I don't know if it was
because my tastes had changed over the years or the writing had gone
downhill. But there are apparently still more to come in this series. It's been
at least two or three years, now, since the last one, and still no sight of the
next to come. My favourite in the series was "Caesar's Women".
If you like reading about ancient Greek history too, then do give Mary Renault
a try. My favourites - "The Bull from The Sea" and "The King Must Die" -
expands on the myth of Theseus and the minotaur. I thought it was a
wonderful retelling of the myth.
Ee Lin
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (62 of 93), Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 13, 2001 05:18 PM
I went through Mary Renault in high school, and it's time for a re-read.
Thanks for reminding me.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (63 of 93), Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 13, 2001 06:08 PM
For those of you who've read Coleen McCullough's Rome series I'd like to
recommend the short bio of her in the Greenwood Press Contemporary
Author's series. (These volumes are white with a sort of dark pink print.)
Her story is really fascinating. I like these Greenwood Press books because
they give you 10-15 pages of bio--enough to be interesting without having to
read 300+ pages about someone. Plus they're about authors that wouldn't
normally warrant a critical biography.
Bo
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (64 of 93), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 14, 2001 01:09 PM
Bo,
I gobbled up Coleen McCullough's The Thorn Birds many years ago. You
mentioned that her life story was fascinating. Do you remember any details?
Ann
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (65 of 93), Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 14, 2001 07:28 PM
Ann,
She was training in some heavy duty scientific career (right now I can't
remember what it was) but she was allergic to latex and had to switch gears.
As I remember The Thorn Birds was a bit of a fluke success and as a result
she could spend her time doing what she wanted--which was the Rome
series.
Find the Greenwood Press Contemporary Authors series, though, Ann. You'll
enjoy reading the bio.
Bo
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (66 of 93), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 14, 2001 10:23 PM
As you might have guessed from my scarcity
around here, my "real" life has been taking
over lately. However, I've been talking to a
friend of mine who is a great fan of both of
these Claudius books. He says that Graves
based much of it on The Twelve Caesars
by Suetonious that a number of you have
referred to above and that it too takes a
more gossipy slant. I say "it too" because I
told him that I liked that aspect of I,
Claudius. Also, he liked both books but
thought that the first was the best written.
I found that interesting, given the comments
here. Ann, the friend I'm referring to is
John Brownlee who posted when we talked about
Lolita.
I'm still only on page 345 which is a
statement on my life right now, not the book.
Am still loving it when I can squeeze a few
pages in. And, I know that I'm going to miss
Livia when she's gone. She's not exactly
likable, but I love waiting to see what she's
going to do next. I wasn't sure that I
"bought" her conversation with Claudius when
she confessed all though. What about you
all? It just didn't seem like something
she'd do...and if she did, I didn't think she
would do it exactly that way.
Barb
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (67 of 93), Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, June 15, 2001 05:05 AM
I'm watching the PBS series now, and Livia is the lynch pin of the palace.
Even when Augustus looks her dead on and realizes she's set Julia up or
arranged the murders of his heirs, he denies it. They had a very strange
relationship.
She's such an awful person, but I find myself delighted to be in on the
devious plans she makes. It's interesting that the women are on to her first,
at least in the PBS version.
K
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (68 of 93), Read 43 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, June 15, 2001 11:45 AM
I remember really enjoying the PBS production, Kay.
Ruth
"We are each of us like our little blue planet, hung in black space, upheld by
nothing but our mutual reassurances, our loving lies." John Updike
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (69 of 93), Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, June 15, 2001 10:14 PM
Barb,
I just finished I, Claudius tonight. Livia may have been despicable when it
came to eliminating anyone in her way, but Claudius does give her credit for
being a very capable ruler. In this version of history at any rate, she is the
one who really ran the show, and it's kind of fun observing a female with so
much power. (Not that I would ever have wanted to be involved with her
personally, mind you!)
I categorized the confession scene as a plot device, but I got great pleasure
from her rationalization of her behavior and her plea to Claudius to have her
deified. Gods, after all, don't have to follow any of the moral rules binding us
poor humans.
page 338: (Livia)"I have done many impious things--no ruler can do otherwise. I
have put the good of the Empire before all human considerations. To keep the
Empire free from factions I have had to commit many crimes...And what is the
proper reward for a ruler who commits such crimes for the good of his subjects?
The proper reward, obviously, is to be deified. Do you believe that the souls of
criminals are eternally tormented?"
(Claudius) "I have always been taught to believe that they are."
(Livia)"But the Immortal Gods are free from any fear of punishment, however
many crimes they commit?"
(Claudius)"Well, Jove deposed his father and killed one of his grandsons and
incestuously married his sister, and...yes, I agree...They none of them have a
good moral reputation. And certainly the Judges of the Mortal Dead have no
jurisdiction over them."
(Livia)"Exactly. You see now why it's all-important for me to become a
Goddess..."
I found the above humorous and oddly touching.
A fellow teacher recently lent me a series of lectures on tape about ancient
Rome. I'm anxious to start listening to the ones that cover this period in
history.
Ann
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (70 of 93), Read 45 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, June 15, 2001 10:20 PM
I also found some macabre humor in the descriptions of mad Caligula turning
himself, his sister Drusilla, and even his horse into gods.
Claudius knows how to play the game pretty well, as is evidenced by the fact
that he is one of the only members of the imperial family alive at the end. He
tells Ganymede (395) to speak to Drusilla.
"Tell her she's a Goddess too," I said, "in case she hasn't noticed it."
Ann
Topic:
June Discussion: I, Claudius by Robert Graves (71 of 93), Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 16, 2001 01:42 AM
Ann, the way the Romans played about with religion cracked me up. They
were very pious (in the sense of observing all the formalities), at least as
depicted by Graves. It was such a big deal to complete every word and
gesture correctly during daily devotions - one little mistake, and poor old
Claudius had to start all over.
They had the opposite of a separated church and state. But it was almost like
religion served the needs of the state, rather than what we have sometimes
seen in more modern times, where the state claimed to serve the needs of
religion. Whoever was in charge would decree someone a god, or decree a
religion for the conquered people to worship; and there it was. Not devotion
in the sense we would understand it, eh?
Theresa
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (72 of 93), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Alex Wenger (arw2@duke.edu)
Date:
Saturday, June 16, 2001 02:31 AM
IC starts with Claudius' profession of his Republican beliefs. It ends with his
coronation as emperor. What is then to be made of IC and its take on
government? We hear so often of Claudius' interest in returning the power to
the people, yet it is Livia who makes the most compelling argument--for
dictatorship. Claudius is for democracy, but his arguments are always muted
and expressed as self-evident. IC puts at stake how government should be
controlled.
At the time he wrote it, Graves was living in a Europe between the World
Wars. Every new democracy created following WWI except Czech. fell to
fascism before the outbreak of WWII. From Germany to Spain to Italy to all of
the smaller countries, Europe was in a massive state of ideological flux.
What's more, the parallels to ancient Rome and between-war Europe are
unmistakable. Both cases involve the events following a war with Germany.
Claudius portrays Roman civilization as crumbling, just as the Lost Generation
saw their own society falling down.
Graves' intentions about government are ambiguous to me, but I am leaning
towards a fascist element in IC.
I would be interested to hear others' takes if we can abandon the
do-you-like-this-character? debate for a moment.
Alex
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (73 of 93), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:00 AM
Theresa,
Good observation about the Romans and religion. I wonder if anyone took it
seriously, other than as a way to propitiate the gods and ward off disaster. It
doesn't seem like the kind of religion which would offer any kind of comfort,
does it? I suppose that's why Christianity was so appealing--a loving God,
promise of a wonderful hereafter, even if the present was a living hell, etc.
Ann
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (74 of 93), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 16, 2001 11:16 PM
Alex-
"Claudius, the God" covers his rationalization for maintaining the monarchy,
rather than returning to a Republic. I've returned the book, but I remember a
passage where C. comes to the conclusion that it's better to have a benign
dictator than a nation in constant upheaval from civil wars. He's embarrassed
for not living up to his personal beliefs, but he realizes that Rome will never
return to a Republic.
Since C. truly had no real interest in self-aggrandizement, I think he was
genuinely concerned for Rome's welfare. He didn't trust anyone else to take
the dictatorship, and figured he could do best for Rome by staying in his
position.
Dan, have you read CTG yet? What is your take on Alex's comments?
The Roman religion seemed to be based on appeasement,fear, and
intimidation, on the part of the Caesars and their families. There didn't seem
to be an expectation of comfort or example for living their lives.
K
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (75 of 93), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Saturday, June 16, 2001 11:23 PM
ANN
I don't think the "older" religions were ever meant to give comfort. Mostly
they seem geared to scare the masses and keep them in line. Plus by the
time the Romans expropriated the Greek religion, it was a confusing
conglomeration of differing beliefs. Seemingly the Greeks had kept every
religion of every group they conquered, and rationalized them into a unifying
set of gods and demi-gods. The harder it was to conquer a group, the higher
in the panoply their gods were. Even with the story of Aeneas leaving Troy
with his father on his back, the religion inherited by the Romans must have
seemed confusing to any but the most learned.
The Christians in Rome were slaves. The religion was tolerated because it
was non-violent. The Christians were not considered a threat to the ruling
class. By luck or design the Christians took over the running of households;
the Romans eventually came up with the idea that education was not
necessary and before they knew what was going on, they became not
Christians, but obsolete.
EDD
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (76 of 93), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 16, 2001 11:43 PM
Alex,
Loved your note. It provided much food for thought. I hadn't really
considered before how contemporary events influenced Graves' narrative and
point of view.
There are some interesting parallels between the Roman empire and the time
between the 20th century world wars. However, I think there are also very
significant differences.
For one, I would not equate fascism with a monarchy, which is what Rome
had in this period. Fascism involves extreme nationalism and a totalitarian
control of the population, neither of which had been invented yet. You could
make a case that both involved a kind of dictatorship, but I don't think that
they had the same roots.
The Roman empire described in IC may have been exhibiting signs of moral
decay in the upper classes, but overall this was a period of economic
prosperity and, for the most part, peace. The barbarians didn't actually
overrun Rome for another 400 years. The period between the world wars, on
the other hand, was marked by tremendous economic upheavals and a
leadership weakened by the terrible loss of the best and brightest during the
First World War.
Be that as it may, I think you have hit the nail on the head in your comments
about the Germans. Graves describes some of them, particularly the ones
who guarded Caligula, as almost subhuman. I think that Graves' treatment of
them was very probably influenced by his views of contemporary Germany.
Since this is an historical novel, Graves could not depart from history in order
to make Claudius a republican hero. The furthest he could go was to give his
hero republican tendencies, which he may or may not have had in real life.
Do you think that his descriptions of the excesses of one man rule during this
period were meant as a warning to his contemporaries?
Ann
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (77 of 93), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 16, 2001 11:49 PM
Edd,
Good point about ancient gods being a conglomeration of gods from
conquered peoples. No wonder they lacked cohesion. Growing up with the
idea that God represents perfection, I am at something of a loss to
understand religions where gods represent pure power. I am sure you are
right that religion was used as a means to control people. Many would say it
has retained that role up to the present.
It's no wonder that a religion that promised that the meek would inherit the
earth appealed to the lower classes, is it?
Ann
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (78 of 93), Read 37 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, June 16, 2001 11:57 PM
As I was reading, I though it interesting that Germany was such a thorn in
the side of the Romans, but I didn't pick up on the parallels of current events
in Graves' time. Germans were aggressors in both World Wars, but the only
connection I made was that their reputation was long term deserved.
K
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (79 of 93), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 17, 2001 09:08 AM
Having read a lot of the Roman history Graves used to formulate this novel,
the German equation was seems more an instance of coincidence than
intent. the Germanic tribes were causing problems during the early Augustan
age. While I think Graves enjoyed playing with it, I never got the sense that
he equated the Nazi regime with the Germanic tribes. If anything, the
Romans themselves surrending to the yoke of dictatorhip seems to present a
pro-fascist argument.
In Claudius the God, Claudius tackles the very question raised by Alex: How
can a self-professed Republican be a dictator? He feels, as Kay asserted
earlier, that he is the keystone in the government's arch and that he cannot
remove himself without everything crumbling.
Dan
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (80 of 93), Read 45 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 17, 2001 10:35 AM
Maybe so, Dan, but Graves' portrait of the Germans in IC is very unflattering.
They were, of course, "barbarians" to the Roman world. Perhaps there were
no intentional parallels. However, I think it is also quite possible that the
Graves' descriptions of the Germans were influenced by his opinion of his
German contemporaries.
Here are some excerpts describing Caligula's German guards, for example.
One might suppose that living in the capital of the greatest city on earth had
civilized them somewhat. However, that was not the case. They are
presented as exceptionally brutish and stupid creatures:
(p.457) By this time, there can hardly have been a citizen in Rome who did not
long for the death of Caligula, or would not willingly have eaten his flesh, as the
saying is; but to these Germans he was the most glorious hero the world had
ever known. And if he dressed as a woman; or galloped suddenly away from his
army on the march; or made Caesonia appear naked before them and boasted of
her beauty; or burned down his most beautiful villa at Herculaneum on the
grounds that his mother Agrippina had been imprisoned there for two days on
her way to the island where she died--this inexplicable sort of behavior only made
him the more worthy of their worship as a divine being. They used to nod wisely
to each other and say, "Yes, the Gods are like that. You can't tell what they are
going to do next. Tuisco and Mann, at home in our dear, dear Fatherland, are just
the same."
The Germans never change?
A few pages later, after Caligula has been assassinated they once again
appear to be mindless louts:
(p. 464) They were going to avenge their murdered hero by a wholesale
massacre...it was quite clear what the Germans intended because they were
going through that curious performance of patting and stroking their assegais
and speaking to them as if they were human beings, which is their invariable
custom before shedding blood with those terrible weapons...
Ann
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (81 of 93), Read 43 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 17, 2001 01:02 PM
Ann and Alex-
Consider how frustrating it must have been for the Roman generals and
caesars to not be able to conquer and stabilize the German tribes. Rome had
conquered the world, except for these barbarians, who refused to accept
Rome's domination. I think that would account for Graves' writing.
I'm guessing his research showed many such frustrated, angry references to
the Germans by the Romans. I think Graves writing to reflect current events
was unlikely.
K
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (82 of 93), Read 43 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 17, 2001 02:52 PM
Kay,
Of course, we'll never really know. :)
I am listening to the Great Courses on Tape lectures on Roman history that
my friend lent me. They are fascinating. The lecturer is Professor Garrett G.
Fagan from Pennsylvania State University.
He remarks that Suetonius, who was one of Graves' main sources, wrote
"tabloid history." He also comments that whenever Graves had a choice of
sources, he always picked the most sensational. Although there were nasty
rumors about Livia in the old Roman texts, Fagan considers them to be
unsubstantiated. He points out that it would have been almost impossible for
Livia to have killed some of her reputed victims because she was so far from
the scene. (Ah, what the heck, he was writing a novel after all.)
He only touches briefly on Claudius, but does say he was generally capable.
Unlike Caligula, who had never held any position of importance, Claudius was
at least educated and had studied Roman history.
Although Graves may have personified all the political machinations going on
in one character (Livia), he seems to have got much of the atmosphere of
Roman aristocratic life right. I just finished listening to the tape on Roman
religion, for example. It emphasizes how ritualistic Roman religion was and
how, if even a tiny mistake was made, they had to start over from the
beginning. One time a 3 day festival had to be started over at the very
beginning because of a small mistake. Apparently those ancient gods were
very picky! It reminded me of Claudius' many problems performing religious
rituals.
Fagan says there is considerable controversy among scholars as to how
seriously the Greeks and Romans took their religion. He feels, however, that
it would be a mistake to assume that they did not believe in their gods and
rituals. He says that paganism served for thousands of years as a viable
explanation of an arbitrary and dangerous world. Because the gods could be
so fickle, it was constantly necessary to propitiate them with prayer, sacrifice
and rituals. I guess this gave people some sense of control, comforting them
that if they followed the correct procedures, they could ward off disaster.
Moral values did not form part of Roman religion. Both the Romans and
Greeks left that role to philosophy.
Well, I have rambled on enough. These tapes are great. I don't know if
libraries carry them or not, but they are a great way to distract yourself when
you're doing routine gardening or housework.
Ann
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (83 of 93), Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 17, 2001 02:53 PM
Alex,
Are you still out there?
Ann
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (84 of 93), Read 49 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 17, 2001 03:03 PM
Ann-
Would you feel comfortable loaning the tapes to me when you're through? I
think I'd enjoy them.
K
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (85 of 93), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 17, 2001 03:40 PM
Kay,
If they were my tapes, I'd be happy to lend them, but they belong to a
co-worker who only lent them to me for a short time. There are 24 separate
tapes.
Ann
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (86 of 93), Read 55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, June 17, 2001 05:00 PM
Oh. Ok, no problem. Just keep your observations and discoveries coming, all
right?
K
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (87 of 93), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Alex Wenger (arw2@duke.edu)
Date:
Sunday, June 17, 2001 11:57 PM
Yes, still there.
About this Germany thing. I see it simply as a parallel literary device Graves
uses to make us aware of the connection between his novel and the world
he inhabited when he wrote it. Some have claimed that CTG deals directly
with democracy vs. dictatorship question, but I would submit that that theme
is the major current running through IC--the subject for this discussion
thread.
My main point--that I perhaps did not make crystalline in my first post--is that
IC is not necessarily a book that supports democracy. Claudius tells us one
thing, but the text KNOWS another. At one point, when discussing Tiberius'
reign, Claudius mentions that the empire faired quite well during this period.
He says that while 200-300 of the elite suffered, the provinces and vast
majority of Roman citizens prospered. This is made even more explicit when
he mentions that Caligula assumed the emperorship with a full treasury and
smooth running bureaucracy. THIS is the real message of IC--that a
dictatorship can rule far better than democracy even if it is a depraved and
unfair institution.
It is easy for us 70 years later to automatically assume everyone but the
Hitler and Mussolini preferred democracy. Nothing could be further from the
truth. The Weimar Republic of Germany was constantly beset by a sizable
percentage of the population that wanted a return to one-man rule. Much of
Europe saw similar sentiments. IC came at a time when democracy and
dictatorial rule were being most fiercely debated, and I cannot but read this
as a text informed by that debate.
Alex
"A pretty girl
In her underwear
If there's anything better
In this world
Who cares?"
"Underwear," Magnetic Fields
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (88 of 93), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 18, 2001 07:46 AM
Yes, the treasury may have been full, but at what cost to the Roman
taxpayers and the conquered? The dictators frittered away the stockpile,
then demanded unreasonable taxes from the citizens. There were also all
those forced clauses in wills to give estates to Caligula. Allowing the
leadership of a country to fall into the hands of a single person is not a good
idea. As Claudius points out, the country's fate rests on the one in power and
power does a lot of corrupting, even with the good guys. I don't see IC as an
argument for a dictatorship. It's an interesting question, though.
K
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (89 of 93), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, June 18, 2001 08:32 AM
Someone asked a while back what Tiberius was up to on the island that
Claudius did not wish to soil his text with. Suetonius, the "tabloid historian,"
provides a glimpse.
Don't read further if you're easily offended. This is the only warning...
On retiring to Capreae he made himself a private sporting-house where sexual
extravagances were practised for his secret pleasure. Bevies of girls and young
men, whom he had collected from all over the Empire as adepts in unnatural
practices, and known as spintriae, would copulate before him in groups of three,
to excite his waning passions. A number of small rooms were furnished with the
most indecent pictures and statuary obtainable, also certain erotic manuals from
Elephantis in Egypt; the inmates of the establishment would know from these
exactly what was expected of them. He furthermore devised little nooks of
lechery in the woods and glades of the island, and had boys and girls dressed up
as Pans and nymphs prostituting themselves in front of caverns or grottoes; so
that the island was now openly and generally called 'Caprineum' (a play on the
word caper (goat)).
Some aspects of his criminal obscenity are almost too vile to discuss, much less
believe. Imagine training little boys, whom he called his 'minnows', to chase him
while he went swimming and get between his legs to lick and nibble him. Or
letting babies not yet weaned from their mother's breast suck at his breast or
groin--such a filthy old man he had become! Then there was a painting by
Parrhasius which had been bequeathed him on condition that, if he did not like
the subject, he could have 10,000 gold pieces instead. Tiberius not only preferred
to keep the picture but hung it in his bedroom. It showed Atalanta performing
fellatio with Meleager.
The story goes that once, while sacrificing, he took an erotic fancy to the acolyte
who carried the incense casket, and could hardly wait for the ceremony to end
before hurrying him and his brother, the sacred trumpeter, out of the temple and
indecently assaulting them both. When they jointly protested at this disgusting
behaviour he had their legs broken.
Reading of these capers, I'm reminded of Gore Vidal's comment that sexual
freedom or depravity (depending on your POV) occurs when one is given
unlimited powers. Vidal asserts that everyone is capable of the most heinous
sexual practices; it is only those that have the ultimate power--like many of
the Caesars--that this animalistic lust comes out and is no longer fantasies
but practices.
Having read Claudius the God, we see that this occurred with women as well
as men, as with Messalina's marathon orgies.
What is the truth? Is Tiberius' swim that different from Clinton's cigar? When
historians write of Clinton, no doubt the most fascinating aspect of his 8
years as president will be the very thing that draws readers to
Suetonius--what was this leader like in private? And is it true repulsion or is it
envy?
Dan
To quote another like Alex...
My tears have stained all the pages
of my True Romance magazines,
We still dance in my outrageously beautiful
Busby Berkeley dreams.
The Magnetic Fields
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (90 of 93), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Anonymous ()
Date:
Monday, June 18, 2001 10:12 AM
Alex:
A handsome boy
in his boxer shorts
beats a girl in her panties
if you are the right sort.
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (91 of 93), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@neteze.com)
Date:
Monday, June 18, 2001 10:20 AM
About religion: I think it would be wise to remark the difference between an
educated "worshipper" and a superstitious one. In China, in 1981, when it
had just become possible for the native Chinese to frequent temples again, I
was impressed with poor women bringing very young children and physically
putting them through their kow-tows.
pres
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (92 of 93), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, June 18, 2001 01:15 PM
Alex,
From what I have learned, it is very true that the provinces were well
governed under Augustus and Tiberius. Augustus initiated reforms that
stopped provincial governors from using their positions to enrich themselves.
Although there were some battles with the Germans west of the Rhine and
with the Balkan peoples, generally this was a period of great peace and
prosperity.
Was this because Rome was ruled by a dictatorship, or in spite of it?
Occasionally in history, there are benevolent dictatorships. But, as Kay
pointed out, once the power becomes too concentrated for too long, it
corrupts and results in misgovernment.
Outside of the aristocratic classes, it probably didn't make much difference to
the people of the time who ruled the Roman empire -- an emperor/dictator or
the Senate. Democracy was a completely alien concept. One third of the
population was slaves and didn't have any legal rights. All of the people, not
just the slaves, dressed differently depending on their rank, sat in different
places at the colosseum depending on their positions, were subjected to
different kinds of punishment by the law, etc., etc.
That's the way things were, and that's the kind of society Graves presented.
I don't think it is valid to say that he was trying to make a case for
dictatorship, especially since his books emphasize so many of the negative
aspects of this period.
I suppose one could argue that the success of the Roman empire as a whole
during this period shows that dictatorships can be effective, but you would
have to really limit your perspective.
Anyway, it certainly is an interesting question. Thanks for bringing it up.
Ann
Topic:
Republic vs. Dictatorship (93 of 93), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, June 18, 2001 01:19 PM
Gosh, Dan, that certainly does satisfy my curiosity. This is certainly once
example of Graves not choosing the most sensational rumors. If he had
included any of these allegations, he might not have been able to sell the
book to the "nice" readers of his time. :)
Pres,
We take our own religious practices for granted and find those of other
groups strange, don't we?
The tapes I am listening to mention that the Romans thought Jewish
monotheism was naive because it was unreasonable to think that only one
god could be responsible for everything that went on. They also thought the
Jewish practice of not eating pork was based on superstition.
Ann
|
Robert Graves
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