Synopsis:
Like all of Forster's work, Howards End concerns itself with class, nationality, economic status, and how each of these affects personal relationships. It follows the intertwined fortunes of the Schlegel sisters, Margaret and Helen, and the Wilcox family over the course of several years. The Schlegels are intellectuals, devotees of art and literature. The Wilcoxes, on the other hand, can't be bothered with the life of the mind or the heart, leading, instead, outer lives of "telegrams and anger" that foster "such virtues as neatness, decision, and obedience, virtues of the second rank, no doubt, but they have formed our civilization." Helen, after a brief flirtation with one of the Wilcox sons, has developed an antipathy for the family; Margaret, however, forms a brief but intense friendship with Mrs. Wilcox, which is cut short by the older woman's death. When her family discovers a scrap of paper requesting that Henry give their home, Howards End, to Margaret, it precipitates a spiritual crisis among them that will take years to resolve.
Topic:
Howard's End (1 of 74), Read 80 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Susan Pardue (ezrabird@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, January 01, 2000 06:41 AM
Happy New Year, everyone, and Happy E. M. Forster's Birthday. It
seems very appropriate to start the Howard's End discussion today.
I hope everyone is enjoying it. I bought it last fall, not even
knowing that this was where the aphorism "Only connect" came
from, and it took only a few pages before I was totally captivated
by it. I've grown a little weary of the ugly duckling motif in so many
of the books I've read over the years--break away from those
different from one's self, find those who are like you and can
therefore appreciate you--and Margaret Schlegel's desires for
proportion, perspective, and connection, her ability to appreciate
those who are different from herself are delighting me just as much
on my second trip through the book as initially. I will do my best
later in the discussion to look at Howard's End with a critical eye,
but all I have to say now is I LOVE THIS BOOK!!!
Topic:
Howard's End (2 of 74), Read 73 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, January 01, 2000 10:35 AM
Susan,
I'm not done yet, but I just wanted to let you know that I am
enjoying this book as much as you. Howard's End is both gentle and
witty -- an unusual combination.
Ann
Topic:
Howard's End (3 of 74), Read 76 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@juno.com)
Date:
Saturday, January 01, 2000 03:54 PM
Happy New Year Ann and Susan,
Looks like our group picked a real winner with Howard's End. This
time I am a (relatively) early bird and am 1/3rd through it. I like all
aspects of the book. What caught my interest so far is the
similarity with other books written about this period in England
which deal with the enormous effort to hang on to middle or upper
class status. If you perused The Portable Victorian Reader, ed. by
Gorden S. Haight Penguin Books you know in part why this money
and class were that important. The lower classes lived in
unbelievable squalor. But I agree with description of Margaret's
personality even if she seems to be a bit hyper for my conservative
taste. The contrast between her English-German family and the
Wilcoxes (merchants -non-academic types) is very interesting and
enlightening. People so far are described as basically decent even in
spite of their class prejudices. This is especially true of aunt Julie
Munt who starts open warfare about her niece Helen's involvement
with Paul Wilcox. What amazed and alarmed me was the fact that
one first embrace and innocent kiss means "Engagement to be
Married". Hum....
Things were pretty tough for young people in those days!
One of the reason I am happy about the choice of this book is that
it represents a major change from the Lolita's obsessions...
So we all seem to have survived the predicted Y2K catastrophe and
now can congratulate each other having made it into a new
millennium - somehow.
Ernie
Topic:
Howard's End (4 of 74), Read 77 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Karen Mikhail (kmbookworm@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, January 01, 2000 04:30 PM
I finished a couple of days ago and really did enjoy the book. It
took me a little while to get into it, but once I did I was enthralled.
I must say, I didn't see the ending of the book coming at all. I was
totally surprised by that, but upon thinking about it found it
plausible.
I borrowed a video of Howard's End from the library and plan to
watch it tomorrow and then reread the book. I'll let you know how
the movie compares.
Karen
Topic:
Howard's End (5 of 74), Read 79 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beatrice Soila (bpsoila@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, January 01, 2000 04:56 PM
I also am 1/3 of the way through. This is a reread for me but for
some reason (probably the stimulating company of this board!), I'm
getting a lot more out of it this time. So far, one of my favorite
parts is the description of listening to Beethoven's Fifth at the
beginning. Makes me want to read along while listening.
I saw the movie before reading the book the first time. The movie is
a much more vivid memory to me than the book. But I think, after
our discussion, the book is what will resonate in the future.
Bea
Topic:
Howard's End (6 of 74), Read 73 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, January 02, 2000 08:25 AM
I finished Howard's End yesterday, spent most of the last 2 days
reading it because I go back to work tomorrow. I loved every
minute of it. I have the Modern Library edition which includes some
interesting articles. One point made by one of the writers (Lionel
Trilling) is that Forster actually doesn't go outside the middle
classes for his characters in this book. The three families are
representative of the span of the middle classes with Leonard Bast
"at the extreme edge of gentility", at the very edge of the "abyss"
of poverty. The Wilcoxes are at the upper end of the scale and the
Schlegels are in the middle, "the point of consciousness of the
novel; upon them the story balances, touching and connecting the
wealthier middle class and the depressed middle class." Interesting
way of sort of diagramming it all out, I thought. I actually thought
of the Basts as being of the lower class and the Wilcoxes of the
upper. However, as someone else commented, there were people in
the lower classes who made the Basts looks wealthy, I imagine.
And, I'm sure there were far richer people than the Wilcoxes.
Some of the point of the novel according to the articles I've read is
the question of who would inherit England as the rigid class system
begins to breaks down. If you take the house at Howard's End as
representing England and look at who is going to ultimately inherit it
in the end, Forster comes to a pretty interesting conclusion.
Am looking forward to more of you finishing. I found it simply a very
enjoyable read and want to thank the person who nominated it. I'd
forgotten how much I enjoy Forster's writing. I'd only read A Room
With a View and A Passage to India before and both of those were
on tape. Forster deserves to be read in the good old traditional way
and savored.
Barb
Topic:
Howard's End (7 of 74), Read 69 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, January 02, 2000 11:56 PM
I liked this book very much. I'd seen the movie a few years ago, but
fortunately my poor memory resulted in most of it being fresh for
me. Incidentally, if you aren't finished with the book and don't know
the story, you may want to wait before you read these notes
because this story has some interesting twists that might slip out.
Ernie, I too was surprised that a mere kiss could be interpreted as a
proposal and have such an effect on the life of the recipient. Did
anyone feel this was implausible?
Barb, it's pretty frightening to think of the lives of the lower classes
if the Basts were in the middle, isn't it? In many ways, I thought
that this book reflected Forster's disapproval of the modern
commercial class. He sees its members as a necessary evil, but
generally finds them smug, obtuse, selfish, and totally lacking in
sympathy for those who don't have their advantages. The spacey
intellectuals like Helen aren't a whole lot better. Both sides need
someone idealistic but practical, like Margaret, to modify their
extremes.
Margaret is a delightful heroine. She seems surrounded by deeply
flawed family members. What do you think --does her competence
and ability to smooth the way for them encourage their
weaknesses?
Ann
Topic:
Howard's End (8 of 74), Read 63 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Patrick Nolan (patrick.nolan@matthewsgroup.com)
Date:
Monday, January 03, 2000 10:31 AM
One point that Forster insisted on--which the movie didn't really
communicate--is that England (and thus the world) needs both
Wilcoxes and Schlegels. That's the trick (connect the prose and the
passion).
I think it's easy to get caught up in our general sympathy for
Schlegels--as bookish, vaguely cultured people how could we
not?--and forget that the world also needs the people who know
how things work and make things run on time. A world of Schlegels
would be as depressing as a world of Wilcoxes.
Leonard Bast (and those like him) is a continuing mystery: no one
know what to do about him, and well-intentioned but patronizing
efforts to help him may just end in disaster.
Topic:
Howard's End (9 of 74), Read 65 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, January 03, 2000 10:54 AM
I read Passage to India about a year ago and enjoyed the work
immensely. I have also read the science-fiction short story Forster
wrote about overpopulation, but I'm afraid the title eludes me at
the present time.
I am not even a third into this book, much disappointed that it is
NOT a book about a guy named Howard contemplating suicide. But I
love what I've encountered so far, including that lovely chapter
devoted to the sundry ways to appreciate the music of Beethoven.
I look forward to this discussion. This is a first-rate novel.
Dan
Topic:
Howard's End (10 of 74), Read 67 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beatrice Soila (bpsoila@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, January 03, 2000 12:43 PM
Well, I had to go back to school, but then discovered that both my
teacher and my classmate are sick. That meant I got to finish
Forster's wonderful book this morning.
What good notes we've had so far! I'm still trying to work out
Forster's attitude toward the Wilcoxes and Basts. Surely, Charles
Wilcox is one of the most despicable villains I've encountered lately.
I agree with Patrick's comment that Forster stresses the necessity
for Wilcoxes in the modern world. However, I don't think Forster
saw the modern world as necessarily a good thing. So many
references to stinking motorcars, the expansion of the city, and the
world in flux. And the book was prescient in its depiction of the
inevitable conflict between Germany and England. The First World
War was the final nail in the coffin of a world in which a family like
the Schleigels could pursue learning and culture undisturbed.
Finally, I found parts of the book quite witty and thought I would
offer some non-spoiler quotes:
"This is Ahab, that's Jezebel," said Evie, who was one of those who
name animals after the less successful characters in Old
Testament history.
Chairs, tables, pictures, books, that had rumbled down to them
through the generations, must rumble forward again like a slide of
rubbish to which she longed to give the final push, and send it
toppling into the sea.
(This is always how I feel when contemplating a move!)
Another map hung opposite, on which the whole continent [Africa]
appeared, looking like a whale marked out for blubber ...
Bea
Topic:
Howard's End (11 of 74), Read 66 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, January 03, 2000 06:25 PM
Patrick,
I agree with you that Forster recognized that the world needs the
sort of people represented by the Wilcoxes. He has Margaret, who
is surely the voice of reason and insight, say the following to her
sister:
If Wilcoxes hadn't worked and died in England for thousands of
years, you and I couldn't sit here without having our throats cut.
There would be no trains, no ships to carry us literary people about
in, no fields even. Just savagery. No--perhaps not even that.
Without their spirit, life might never have moved out of
protoplasm. More and more do I refuse to draw my income and
sneer at those who guarantee it...
Yes, the world needs their sort, but this doesn't mean Forster has
to like them. Throughout most of the novel, it is very difficult to
sympathize with Henry, and Bea's right about Charles--he's
downright despicable. Of course, he isn't very bright and perhaps
that excuses some of the appallingly insensitive things he says.
Bea, I also think that Forster is quite nostalgic about the past. He
hates the rushed automobile rides through the country. How fast do
you think they were going--20 miles an hour? I wonder what he
would make of the hustle and bustle of our day and age. He also
laments our loss of a sense of place in an increasingly mobile
society. Howards End is so important to Mrs. Wilcox because it
connects her with her past and that of her entire family. We've
lived in an apartment and three different homes in the last 21
years. Before that I lived in three different states and a foreign
country. My husband's mother, on the other hand, is living in the
house she was born in. There must be a kind of comfort in being
that connected closely to your roots.
Ann
Topic:
Howard's End (12 of 74), Read 63 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (e.l.kuan@ecs.soton.ac.uk)
Date:
Tuesday, January 04, 2000 11:31 AM
Happy New Year, everyone.
I am about halfway into the book, at the point when the Schlegels
are searching for a new house. It started out well enough but
seems to have stagnated in the middle. And I admit that there are
hardly any characters that I care about in the story. The Schlegels
seem uhm,... a little pretentious to me, philosophizing about life
when it seems to me that you can afford to be philosophical only
when you are well-fed and live in a warm home. The woman's club
that the Schlegel sisters attend and debate about seemingly
important issues just seem to be a whole lot of pretentious
philosophizing without any concrete action.
Ee Lin
Topic:
Howard's End (13 of 74), Read 62 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, January 04, 2000 05:08 PM
Well stated, Ee.
Still behind in this novel, however. I just wanted to note that
Forster writes a novel in the same vein as Nabokov and Joyce: You
cannot simply remove it from its context without ruining everything.
The authorial asides, commentary, the little "Well, reader, let's start
here" are as important as what Character A did to Character B to
involve Character C in Setting D.
Too often, people read novels as if they were detailed screenplays.
This isn't a screenplay--it's a novel. View it outside the context of
being a "novel" and you lose so much.
I saw the film for Howard's End and did not like it very much. But
when the same basic plot is explored by Forster prose, there's just
so much more meat to chew and savor.
Dan
Topic:
Howard's End (14 of 74), Read 58 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, January 04, 2000 10:16 PM
Ee Lin,
Stick with it. Things pick up soon.
Ann
Topic:
Howard's End (15 of 74), Read 61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Tuesday, January 04, 2000 10:48 PM
I'm almost exactly half-way, and feeling not a bit like Ee Lin! Part of
the ease and joy of this first reading is the wonderful memory of the
Emma Thompson movie. These Miss Schlegels don't seem just
exactly the same as portrayed by Emma and Helena, but Henry is
the same, and Charles.
I'm rushing through especially fast because I don't want to rent the
video until I finish. I think this will be one of those win/win deals for
me: the reading is better because of faint recollections of the film,
which will be better on second viewing for having read the book.
Tonya
Topic:
Howard's End (16 of 74), Read 59 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 05, 2000 03:31 AM
Tonya -- Not rereading this but eavesdropping on the commentary
and enjoying it immensely -- like you I read the book after seeing
the film. Rich as the film was -- I agree with you and Dan here --
and look forward BOTH to rereading this and to seeing the film
again. Win-win, as you put it!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Howard's End (17 of 74), Read 57 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Katie Kleczka (knp@execpc.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 05, 2000 06:18 AM
I am so glad that I decided to re-read Howard's End with the group.
This is also the first read for an online group where I am taking
some notes and attempting to contribute something with "meat" to
the discussion. I find online discussion so incredibly difficult for
myself, personally, that the plethora of points and ideas raging
around in my little brain I never seem able to translate through my
fingertips. But this year it is my pledge to try to move beyond that.
So here goes!
I am only just about to begin Chapter X, so I thought I might make
some remarks (albeit haphazard and unorganized :) ) from what I
have underlined in the very first chapters.
1) I like that the novel begins with letters from Helen to Margaret. I
thought it a very nice means of imparting setting and character
descriptions in a rather interesting way. Directly, we learn
something about Howard's End and the Wilcoxes, and indirectly (I
suppose) we learn a great deal about Margaret and Helen herself.
And it fits Helen to a tee. She is flighty and less grounded in the
realities of life than Margaret, and so her rambling, nonsensical
writing style is very much appropriate. And lastly about the letters
and chapter I, we have a bit of a hook with the last line regarding
Helen's new love interest.
2) In chapter II we meet Aunt Juley. I find her incredibly amusing
and I am sure it is due to Forster's adept writing of her characters
inner thoughts and rationalizations. Hilarious. For example: "Mrs.
Munt had her own method of interpreting her nieces. She decided
that Margaret was a little hysterical, and was trying to gain time by
a torrent of talk. Feeling very diplomatic, she lamented the fate of
Speyer, and declared that never, never should she be so misguided
as to visit it..." or "Dear Margaret, do come into the library and shut
the door. Your good maids are dusting the banisters." and in
Chapter III (where Aunt Juley's contributions to fate are
immeasurable during her car trip with Charles Wilcox), "'I must not
interfere a third time', thought Mrs. Munt. However, of course she
did.", and then she mistakes Charles for Paul, and rationalizes what
Margaret REALLY asked her to do and confronts the wrong man
about Helen's situation, and finally, in chapter IV, Mrs. Munt and
Helen return where, "Mrs. Munt soon recovered. She possessed to a
remarkable degree the power of distorting the past, and before
many days were over she had forgotten the part played by her own
imprudence in the catastrophe." She kills me. :)
3) Our author has a thing for trains and travel by rail. I do, too, and
it was to so interesting to read about Margaret's thoughts on
railway termini in Chapter II ("...the station of King's Cross had
always suggested Infinity.") and Aunt Juley's trip to Howard's End in
Chapter III ("It was only an hour's journey, but Mrs. Munt had to
raise and lower the window again and again.").
4) Charles Wilcox is as distasteful as I remember him and it is no
wonder that "... Charles and Aunt Juley drove up, calling each other
names...".
5) Why is Tibby noted as an unimportant character? (" Little need
be premised about Tibby. He was now an intelligent man of sixteen,
but dyspeptic and difficile.") Is it to underscore the lack of "male"
authority (even in light of his young age) in the Schlegel household?
Accentuate the independent nature of Margaret and Helen? Or is he
just some silly, irrelevant young man?
Okay, that's it for now!
Katie
"Everything in moderation, EXCEPT for reading."
Topic:
Howard's End (18 of 74), Read 59 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 05, 2000 08:28 AM
Katie: Poor ol' Tib. "Dyspeptic" I know well, but "difficile" sent me to
the OED.
It says "opposite of facile"; "Hard to accommodate; troublesome;
awkward."
Forster must have known some of my ancestors. {G}
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Howard's End (19 of 74), Read 63 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Patrick Nolan (patrick.nolan@matthewsgroup.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 05, 2000 09:23 AM
Since Howards End is trying to be an allegory about England itself, I
think we need Tibby to stand for Oxbridge and an increasingly
irrelevant class of scholars remote from the world.
As for whether Forster doesn't have to like where England is going,
perhaps; I think the book gives reasons why the changes are
inevitable though.
Topic:
Howard's End (20 of 74), Read 65 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (e.l.kuan@ecs.soton.ac.uk)
Date:
Wednesday, January 05, 2000 09:46 AM
Ann, I did stick with it and ... have completely reversed my feelings
about the book.
It wasn't until almost towards the big showdown between Margaret
and Henry that the events, and musings suddenly coalesced into
something that made sense (to me, slow-witted as I am :-). Upon
finishing, I thought it was a fabulous book and promptly started
from the top again. It is on the re-read that some of the more
cryptic passages seem to make sense and finally, something is
beginning to click.
Like Bea, I also liked Helen's description of Beethoven's Fifth
Symphony though my approach to music is more like Aunt Juley's
foot-tapping. All the goblins make sense now that I've read the
entire story.
Ee Lin
Topic:
Howard's End (21 of 74), Read 61 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Katie Kleczka (knp@execpc.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 05, 2000 05:54 PM
Gosh, Dale, Forster must have known a fair number of mine. HEH!
Katie
"Everything in moderation, EXCEPT for reading."
Topic:
Howard's End (22 of 74), Read 70 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 05, 2000 06:20 PM
Katie:
I'm reminded once again of a favorite quote--which, folks here tell
me, is from Wodehouse:
"No one has ever mistaken a ray of sunshine for a Scotsman with a
grievance..."
Guilty as charged. Or, as Curly of the Three Stooges would say, "I
resemble that remark!"
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Howard's End (23 of 74), Read 58 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 12:41 AM
I think you are right, Patrick. Tibby (so far) seems superfluous to
the story, and Forster (who only wants us all to just connect)
notes that although his sisters hoped Tibby would make friends at
Oxford, he connected with no one, and left there with only
aesthetic memories. Ties in with poor old Henry (??) trying to
improve his mind by reading Ruskin, surely the supreme English
aesthete.
I'm only on page 100. I had though I had read this before, but it
must have been another Forster (what is the one where the chubby
guy takes a flying bellywhopper in the muddy swamp, Forster's idea
of grabbing life with gusto? Where Angels Fear to Tread, maybe?)
Theresa
Topic:
Howard's End (24 of 74), Read 49 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 09:30 AM
I also liked the way the novel opened with the letters, but I love
the author's opening sentence:
One may as well begin with Helen's letters to her sister.
How lackadaisical! Hey, if the novel is to start somewhere, as good
here as anywhere else, Reader. I like the way he conveys a feeling
of throwing the reader into the midst of big events, events so
far-reaching that to get started we "may as well" start with the
actual voice of one of the major players.
Compare that to the opening of Chapter II:
Margaret glanced at her sister's note and pushed it over the
breakfast-table to her aunt. There was a moment's hush, and then
the flood-gates opened."
This takes the "voice" from Chapter I and places it in a "context:" a
sister and aunt reading the voice and reacting to its content.
Later, in Chapter VI, we start a chapter on "the boy, Leonard Bast:"
We are not concerned with the very poor. They are unthinkable,
and only to be approached by the statistician or the poet. This
story deals with gentlefolk, or with those who are obliged to
pretend that they are gentlefolk.
The author is being very direct (and ironic) with the reader. How
interesting the "poor" is the concern of the "statistician" (business
oriented like the Wilcox family, say) and the "poet" (the sensibilities
of the Schlegals, say).
I love the narrative voice in this novel. Most of the events progress
through character dialogue, but every now and then the narrative
voice pokes up--as in the opening of Chapter VI--and shocks the
reader. I love this style of writing--fabulous images, rich ideas, and
this ironic voice which keeps rising to the surface to ZING
characters, ideas, or events.
Dan
Topic:
Howards End (25 of 74), Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 10:18 AM
I have mixed feelings about Howards End. There were parts I really
liked and parts that seemed to be superfluous. The part I liked the
most was Margaret giving Henry that wonderful lecture on
hypocrisy. I was struck by how many times we were told that
Margaret "loved" Henry. Was that the author being ironic? What
kind of love did Margaret have for Henry? My personal feeling is that
she wasn’t bowled over by him, but was flattered that a man of his
stature in the community would be attracted to her, and so she
returned the favor. She was getting to the point of "old
maidenhood" in that society, and I’m sure she felt relieved. Do any
of you think it was more than that?
I felt confused by Bast. What was that night ramble all about? And
why were the sisters so attracted by him? Was he like a kind of
wounded pet that they were trying to force-feed? Did any of you
think that the scene of his death was a bit strange? I couldn’t quite
make out what happened. How did people assume he had heart
failure? That seemed like a stretch, since none were doctors.
Charles never impressed me as a total villain, but as a rather dull
person, of meager intelligence who reacted rather than thought
things out. I don’t think he was evil, just selfish. He did have a wife
and children to worry about, and he had no means of making a
living. Whose fault was that, do you think?
I’ve got the video on order from the library, and will be interested in
seeing this a second time. I hardly remembered any of it, and I
think that I was thinking of another film entirely.
Before I go, I want to ask you all what you think of this quote:
"Pity was at the bottom of her actions all through this crisis. Pity, if
one may generalize, is at the bottom of woman. When men like us,
it is for our better qualities, and however tender their liking, we
dare not be unworthy of it, or they will quietly let us go. But
unworthiness stimulates woman. It brings out her deeper nature, for
good or for evil." Think so?
Sherry
Topic:
Howards End (26 of 74), Read 52 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 10:37 AM
Pity, eh? Maybe in that era? NOW???? I don't think so -- or at least
that branch of 'womanhood' seems to be fading in my opinion.
I seem to remember that the book left me with a few uneven spots
on my mind but it's been a while.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Howards End (27 of 74), Read 55 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (e.l.kuan@ecs.soton.ac.uk)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 11:03 AM
Sherry,
I seem to have the same questions as you about Bast. Why were
the Schlegels so impressed with his night adventure? They kept
brushing off his attempts to talk about literature perhaps because it
felt painful to hear unsophisticated (to them) opinions? My vague
feeling is that Bast actually did something on impulse, outside of his
usual routine, exploring the so-called unknown - an adventure. This
was in contrast to the Schlegels whose experience was mainly
intellectual, and they admired Bast for stepping out of routine?
Margaret was flattered, yes, but also perhaps she hoped to
"improve" Charles, to help him "connect"?
You also asked about the quotation regarding pity viz women, I
don't know, The narrator himself agrees that it is a generalization.
On the whole, perhaps, women may seem to be more sympathetic
than men, but the gap in Forster's time certainly seems wider than
it is now.
Katie, your assessment of Aunt Juley made me laugh. She reminds
me of Jane Austen's Mrs Bennett, only with more sense and more
real affection for her relations. I hardly noticed Tibby except at the
end when he slipped up and mentioned Bast's name to Charles.
Finally, a question of my own - what exactly did the Schlegels mean
by poetry? That their life had poetry? Did it mean affection,
compassion, beauty?
Ee Lin
Topic:
Howards End (28 of 74), Read 56 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 01:45 PM
Great comments and questions, everyone. I love reading books with
you guys.
**WARNING--- PLOT SPOILERS**
I think that Tibby did serve a purpose in the book, if only as
sounding board for Helen and Charles in moments of crisis. Tibby
might have been untouched by their ramblings, but his presence
provided Forster with an opportunity to advance the plot. Also, his
meeting with Charles at the end was crucial because he
inadvertently provided Charles with the identity of the villain he was
searching for--Leonard Bast.
To a certain extent. I felt that all three of the Bast siblings
represented types. Tibby was unemotional and could care less
about people. ( Just as some people cease to attend when books
are mentioned, so Tibby's attention wandered when "personal
realtions" came under discussion> p.254) Helen goes to Oxford to
pour out her heart to Tibby, whose primary concern is getting on
with his dinner. This inability to relate to people may have been, in
part, the result of an overprotected and indulged childhood, but I
also think that there are people who are just born like that.
Helen, on the other hand is a bundle of emotions. Personal relations
are everything to her. However, it becomes apparent that she uses
people to satisfy her own emotional needs. Towards the end of the
book, we are told that Helen forgot people. They were husks that
had enclosed her emotion.(p.311). As for Leonard, she loved him
absolutely, for perhaps half an hour. Wonderful line, isn't that? That
gentle irony and insight into human foibles represents for me what is
best in Forster.
Margaret is the happy medium between the totally uninvolved Tibby
and the overinvolved Helen. She feels deeply and cares about
people, but her emotions are always tempered by her incisive
intelligence and willingness to let people lead their own lives.
Did Margaret love Henry? Oh, Sherry, that's a wonderful question.
Surely it's a bad sign when you almost scream the first time your
fiance kisses you. On the other hand, Margaret did recover quickly.
Forster told us so many times that she loved him that I found
myself going back over the texts looking for indications that he was
indeed likable. I couldn't find that many.
I think we should also remember that Helen was the pretty, sister,
not Margaret. She is described as toothy and, at least for some
people's tastes, too talkative. In many ways, it was quite a coup to
have the wealthy and successful Henry Wilcox propose to her.
Sherry, the line you quoted about women and pity made me cringe
when I read it. I think Forster occasionally indulges in idealized
stereotypes. The rural classe are also put on a pedestal. (They are
England's hope. Clumisly they carry forward the torch of the sun,
until such time as the nation sees fit to take it up.p. 323)
Ee Lin, I think you defined the meaning of "poetry" in their lives
perfectly.
Ann
Topic:
Howards End (29 of 74), Read 58 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beatrice Soila (bpsoila@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 02:54 PM
I'll have to go back and do some digging to quote chapter and
verse. However, I noted a great symmetry between the fascination
that overcame Helen with the Wilcoxes and Howard's End, Leonard
Bast's fascination with the Schlegels and Margaret's fascination
with Henry. It seemed sort of an hypnotic pull over great gulfs
between classes and characters.
Bea
Topic:
Howards End (30 of 74), Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Susan Pardue (ezrabird@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 07:46 PM
Wasn't it Schopenhauer who was so contemptuous of readers and
claimed it was better to think your own thoughts than to have
thoughts put into your head by a book? I had the impression that
Helen and Margaret wanted to encourage Len Bast to value and
express his own thoughts, his own experiences, rather than parrot
something he'd read, but had no first-hand knowledge of.
Frustrating to him, yes, since he was on fire to discuss literature,
but the Schlegels did have his best interests at heart.
What I cannot find answered in the book is why Henry Wilcox
decided to marry Margaret. He has to know his children cannot
abide her. He thinks her "clever as they make 'em" but he treats her
in a condescending manner and has no interest in understanding her
or in making himself understood by her (she does so in spite of
himself). Was he trying to be perverse--keep his children worried
that maybe, just maybe, she'd get her hands on Howard's End? Or
was he attracted to her because Mrs. Wilcox had been so fond of
her? Did he feel guilt on some inarticulate level because he had
cheated on her and had lied to her on her deathbed? Why marry
Margaret?
Susan
Topic:
Howards End (31 of 74), Read 50 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ernest Belden (drernest@juno.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 08:09 PM
I have always looked at the English as proper and not given to
verbal and explosive arguments. Strangely, this struck me as the
most unusual part of the book i.e. the way they expressed
themselves and their opinions and prejudices. It occurred to me
that I would have avoided this sort of thing if I had been present. I
would have opted to not enter into it, perhaps say nothing and
keep my thoughts to myself. Yet these arguments did bring out
some fundamental aspects of either the English character or
contemporary thought. There is a good deal of talk about socialism,
artiness, academic and merchant types. Yes, it does reflect on
England in those days.
Sometimes I wonder if the Schlegel girls were truly arty or just
adopted this particular type. Henry seems to be a merchant and I
was carried away the way Margaret took a deep look "inside of him"
trying to penetrate his soul, yet was able to live with what she
found.
Bast to me is an unpleasant puzzle. Was he put into the book as an
other English type? The desperate, but futile attempt to rise
socially, intellectually but being defeated by insecurity of his social
position. And his wife fits in well as another "lost" type. Well I could
go on and bore you people to death. But I love the book and it
serves its purpose by making us think and having a rare literary
beauty as well.
Ernie
Topic:
Howards End (32 of 74), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Katie Kleczka (knp@execpc.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 08:33 PM
Ee Lin et al:
Speaking of Jane Austen (Aunt Juley is very like Mrs. Bennet
although a bit quieter, I think. HEH!), I was reminded while reading
on the bus today of the likeness in personality and character of
Margaret and Helen to the older and younger sisters in Austen's
Sense and Sensibility.
Katie
"Everything in moderation, EXCEPT for reading."
Topic:
Howards End (33 of 74), Read 51 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 06, 2000 10:17 PM
Susan,
I think loneliness explains Henry's desire to marry Margaret. He
loved the first Mrs. Wilcox, but quickly shoved his grief back into an
unvisited corner of his mind. Margaret filled a void. Physically, she
might not have been particularly attractive, but she was about 20
years younger, which was probably appealing. The father of a friend
of mine insisted on marrying a much younger woman the second
time around so that she wouldn't die on him like his first wife did. Of
course, this didn't make his daughter feel very good.
Now that you mention it, Katie, the sisters were very like the two in
Sense and Sensibility.
Ernie, remember the sisters were half German. Maybe that explains
their readiness to express emotion.
Ann
Topic:
Howards End (34 of 74), Read 58 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Friday, January 07, 2000 01:06 AM
Remember, Tibby's mother died giving birth to him. This is a child
who never bonded! Which might explain his detachment from other
humans/ His sisters might have filled the void a bit, but perhaps
they felt some (unconscious) anger that he was the cause of their
mother dying. Helen lost her mother at 8 - perhaps explains why
she flits about getting people to love her, only to flit away again.
And Margaret, although sympathetic and intelligent, lost her mother
at 13 and remains a bit aloof from the fray.
I'm only on Chapter 17, so can't say much more at this point. I was
wrong earlier, though, it is Leonard who reads Ruskin, not Henry. I
haven't met Henry as yet.
Theresa
Topic:
Howards End (35 of 74), Read 56 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Friday, January 07, 2000 06:50 AM
I think one of the main reasons that Henry wanted to marry
Margaret is that his daughter Evie got engaged. He was half
expecting her to play the role of woman of the house and
companion. Then she ends up falling in love with Dolly's uncle
(keeping it all in the family).
Sherry
Topic:
Howards End (36 of 74), Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (e.l.kuan@ecs.soton.ac.uk)
Date:
Friday, January 07, 2000 10:41 AM
After reading the thoughts that all of you posted, I went back and
re-read the book and understood it even more. (Or at least, I hope
I did!) Thank you whoever nominated an voted for the book. I am
very, very glad to have finished it.
PLOT SPOILERS AHEAD!
I agree with those of you who said that Tibby didn't care about
people. He seemed to see art or literature as beautiful objects, not
as connections to the humanity. When Margaret contrasts Helen's,
Tibby's and her approach to Beethoven's symphony, she says that :
"She (Helen) labels it with meanings from start to finish; turns it
into literature. I wonder if the day will ever return when music will
be treated as music. Yet I don't know. There's my brother --
behind us. He treats music as music, and oh, my goodness! He
makes me angrier than anyone, simply furious."
In Chapter 39, the narrator comments on Tibby :
His was the leisure without sympathy -- an attitude as fatal as the
strenuous: a little cold culture may be raised on it, but no art.
But I think that finally, Tibby did gain a glimmer somewhat about
the importance of human relations because at the end of Chapter
39 :
Without intending it, he had betrayed his sister's confidence; he
was not enough interested in human life to see where things will
lead to.
...
He was deeply vexed, not only for the harm he had done Helen, but
for the flaw he had discovered in his own equipment.
...
And Tibby found himself alone.
Nothing more is said about him after that, maybe he did try to
change a little?
********
Ann, I thought some more about the "poetry" and think that they
also meant that it embodied the human soul, as opposed to material
wealth.
**********
Susan :
> I had the impression that Helen and Margaret wanted to
> encourage Len Bast to value and express his own thoughts,
> his own experiences, rather than parrot something he'd
> read, but had no first-hand knowledge of.
Good point.
Ee Lin
Topic:
Howards End (37 of 74), Read 56 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Susan Pardue (ezrabird@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, January 07, 2000 12:59 PM
Ee,
I nominated Howard's End, so I'm very glad your opinion of the book
changed.
I think the book comes across as rather episodic on a first read,
and I'm
sure many people get tired of waiting for Howard to make an
appearance when
his ultimate departure is assured by the title and put Forster aside
for
someone with a more distinct plot. I'm happy Constant Readers
perservere.
Susan
Topic:
Howards End (38 of 74), Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Patrick Nolan (patrick.nolan@matthewsgroup.com)
Date:
Friday, January 07, 2000 01:39 PM
I haven't seen much discussion here of Mrs. Bast. Is it belivable
that both Henry and Leonard could involve themselves with the
same person?
Topic:
Howards End (39 of 74), Read 60 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (e.l.kuan@ecs.soton.ac.uk)
Date:
Friday, January 07, 2000 01:43 PM
Susan,
On the first read, I didn't understand what the Schlegels were going
on about - the poetry comment especially, and also the Leonard
Bast episode. There was also some foretelling which I couldn't figure
out at all. Reading the book the second time was more rewarding as
every time I came across something that was obscure before, the
penny dropped the second time round. :-) Thank you for nominating
it. I have already placed A Passage To India on the TBR list.
Ee Lin
Topic:
Howards End (40 of 74), Read 53 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Saturday, January 08, 2000 03:02 PM
Just at the part where Leonard has it out with Margaret and Helen
over their "picking his brain:"
"You," said Margaret--"you--you--"
Laughter from Evie, as at a repartee.
"You are the man who tried to walk by the Pole Star."
More laughter.
"You saw the sunrise."
Laughter.
"You tried to get away from the fogs that are stifling us all--away
past books and houses to the truth. You were looking for a real
home."
"I fail to see the connection," said Leonard, hot with stupid anger.
"So do I."
It seems that this is an important moment in the novel, where in
the conflict of emotions between the sisters and Bast we run over
some very thematically-important terrain:
--the jeering of those who try to better themselves with "artistic
notions"
--the "fog" which surrounds these characters, be it the literary fog
of the sisters or the practical fog of the Wilcoxes, and how there is
a search for "the truth," for a real meaning.
--the search for a place to call home (Lord knows, this novel is all
about "leaving home" and moving around)
--and the failure of many--either out of "anger" or "stupidity," to
just connect
Perhaps the "pole star," the "truth," and the "home" are emblematic
of the same thing: a fixed foundation outside the flux of society,
those guide signs and places which are eternal verities, the firm
bedrock beneath the raging river of society.
Each character searches for something eternal, something that will
never move. Mrs. Wilcox's "Howard's End" with its trees and such
comes closest, hence the title.
perhaps
Dan
Topic:
Howards End (41 of 74), Read 43 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Saturday, January 08, 2000 04:20 PM
Patrick,
You asked if it was believable that both Henry and Leonard could
involve themselves with the same woman. I find it plausible that
they were both attracted to a woman like Jackie. She was once
quite a looker and apparently very free with her charms. Henry was
on the lookout for some cheap sex. Leonard was very young when
she latched onto him and too naive to realize what he was getting
into. By that time, Jackie was apparently desperate for
respectability.
While I can understand that they were both attracted to a Jackie
type, it does stretch credibility a bit that they were involved with
the exact same person, especially since Henry's interlude was
overseas. But story tellers are entitled to use coincidence for
dramatic purposes, don't you think?
Dan, good observations. It's ironic that both the Schlegel sisters
and Leonard himself wanted Leonard to be something he wasn't. I
find Leonard's yearning for culture and respectability very poignant.
In a society dominated by class distinctions, it must have been
almost impossible to reinvent yourself.
Ann
Topic:
Howards End (42 of 74), Read 45 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Beatrice Soila (bpsoila@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, January 08, 2000 05:53 PM
I found the Henry-Jackie connection the least believable part of the
book, just one of those coincidences that requires a huge
suspension of disbelief. But I think that Jackie's type would appeal
to many different types of men -- if not on a daily basis.
On the other hand, I did find it believable that Henry would be
attracted to someone like Margaret -- he had apparently been very
happy with Mrs. Wilcox and Margaret and Ruth were sisters in a
way.
Bea
Topic:
Howards End (43 of 74), Read 47 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Saturday, January 08, 2000 08:02 PM
I had assumed that the Schlegel's fascination with Leonard's
night-long walk had to do with the discussion of nature vs.
mechanized progress that was going on at the time. Forster himself
constantly reflects on what was being lost in the name of progress.
Also, if I keep coming back to that question that is purportedly
being raised by Forster in this book, "Who will inherit England?" in
that age of change and the beginning of the break-down of class
structure, more of it falls into place. It makes sense then that
Henry would be attracted by Margaret and she by him because they
are representatives of different sections of English society knowing
that both are necessary but that neither section can move England
forward by themselves.
Forster didn't make such a good case for the Leonard Basts making
a contribution, but, as someone pointed out here previously, I don't
think he understood much about Leonard except maybe a bit about
his longings. Also, he did seem to understand how precarious
Leonard's situation in life was.
And, Katie and Dan, I loved your notes about the specifics of
Forster's writing techniques. They made me revisit each chapter
again mentally. I wish I could go back and reread it now, but I'm
too involved in Fingerpost.
Barb
Topic:
Howards End (44 of 74), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, January 09, 2000 07:36 AM
Two nights ago I watched the movie. (I had seen it before, but it
seemed almost completely new to me.) It was almost a perfect
distillation of the book. But the screenwriter (Ruth Praver Jhabvala)
added information in some cases. One instance was the
Jackie/Henry connection. I don't think this was in the book, we
were just told that they had met on Cyprus. (Let me know if I am
wrong here). In the movie, Len explained to Helen that Jackie was
there with her parents. Her father was killed and then a few months
later her mother died. She was only 16 and had no one. Henry fell in
love with her (shades of Lolita?) but then abandoned her when he
was called home. I don't know if this makes Henry seem better or
worse, but it does put Jackie in a better light. I like that the movie
tried to explain this connection. It makes the "coincidence" seem
less strained and more believable.
Sherry
Topic:
Howards End (45 of 74), Read 40 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, January 09, 2000 09:43 AM
Sherry,
******Plot Spoilers**************
I don't recall any explanation of the Jackie/Henry relationship in the
book either, other than that they had met in Cyprus. My impression
from the book was that she was never "respectable" and that there
had been men in between Henry and Leonard, if not before Henry.
Forster tells us so little about her that the reader can invent his
own explanation. How did the rest of you view her?
I remember liking the movie very much, Sherry. Ruth Praver
Jhabvala's elaboration on the Henry/Jackie romance ties up an
unsatisfying loose end and adds to the dramatic intensity of the
plot. But it also presents Henry in a worse light. As a reader, it
never bothered me that he had been involved with Jackie in the
first place, only that he refused to draw the connection between
his own fall from grace and Helen's. I imagine readers who read this
book when it first came out viewed things differently.
In this book, Helen admits that she seduced Leonard and then tried
to buy him off with the $5000-- a neat twist on the traditional
fallen woman plot, don't you think?
Ann
Topic:
Howards End (46 of 74), Read 40 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (e.l.kuan@ecs.soton.ac.uk)
Date:
Sunday, January 09, 2000 12:41 PM
Dan,
I too enjoyed your observation that the characters, especially the
Schlegel sisters were constantly searching for something eternal.
Your observation also helped me understand Mrs Wilcox a little
more. She seems to be such an enigmatic character. It was difficult
to understand why Forster seemed to emphasize so much on Ruth
Wilcox's strong attachment to Howards End.
Ann,
Whenever Leonard Bast was described, I felt pity for him. It seemed
as if Forster seemed to say that no matter how hard Leonard tried
to acquire some culture, he would never succeed.
With regards to Henry's involvement with Jackie, during the quarrel
between Margaret and Henry, Margaret cried :
"A man who ruins a woman for his pleasure, and casts her off to
ruin other men."
Henry also committed a sin in Margaret's eyes because at the time
he was involved with Jackie, he was already married.
From the bits I remember about Jackie, she seemed like a very lost
and desperate person, especially when she kept asking if Leonard
would really marry her, as if someone had once promised to do so,
and then had broken the promise.
Ee Lin
Topic:
Howards End (47 of 74), Read 37 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, January 09, 2000 07:15 PM
Ee Lin,
Good points about Jackey. I can see now that there is definitely the
suggestion that Henry ruined her. For some reason, I had her
pegged as a prostitute. That judgment was probably too harsh.
Mrs. Wilcox is a sad character, isn't she? The quality that Henry
appreciated most in her was that she was "steady." After she dies,
he almost never mentions her, which even Margaret finds odd. Do
you suppose a place like Howards End meant so much to her
because her relations with people were unsatisfying?
To move onto another subject, I thought the following idea was
interesting:
Death destroys a man, but the idea of death saves him…
What do the rest of you think?
Topic:
Howards End (48 of 74), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Katie Kleczka (knp@execpc.com)
Date:
Sunday, January 09, 2000 09:27 PM
Ann wrote and asked for thoughts re:
Death destroys a man, but the idea of death saves him…
This resonated strongly with me! To become cognizant of the
inevitability of one's own death can breathe such life into an
individual. The knowledge of personal mortality can push one into
living life to the fullest extent. For how can death destroy us if we
continually cheat it of its power through the knowledge of its
purpose. The only true destruction is the act of dying; but an
awareness of death can inspire one to live an extraordinary life!
Katie
"Everything in moderation, EXCEPT for reading."
Topic:
Howards End (49 of 74), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, January 10, 2000 10:10 AM
Katie: Your note about our cognizance of mortality reminds me of a
favorite line from Flannery O'Connor.
A vagrant approaches a farmhouse and offers to do chores in
exchange for a couple of meals and a place to sleep overnight. The
lady of the house accepts, but tells him he'll have to sleep in the
barn.
"That's fine, ma'am," he tells her. "You know, the monks of old slept
in their coffins."
"Well," the lady sniffs, "they wasn't as advanced as we are."
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Howards End (50 of 74), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, January 10, 2000 10:36 AM
Interesting quote, Ann. I was just reading some poems by Louis
Simpson (not in the top 15, but that's another thread. . .) and
came across a quote he attributes to Samuel Johnson: "Hanging
increases concentration." When Simpson was young, everyone
cheated on an exam when the teacher left the room. Somehow
figuring out how the "master" would handle the situation, Simpson
then studied the material, learning it all by heart. The next day, the
teacher began giving 6 whacks to each boy who could not answer
the material correctly. Simpson, on a bench and next in line, quotes
Doctor Johnson: "Hanging increases concentration."
Dale: I love that anecdote. That's classic.
Dan
Topic:
Howards End (51 of 74), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, January 10, 2000 10:47 AM
Oh, I forgot to talk about Howard's End. Yes, Mrs. Wilcox used
Howard's End as a stationary object within the flux of her life. She
needed to know that Howard's End existed, that while she may be
moved from dull apartment to dull house and so forth, Howard's End
was there.
I believe Forster was trying to articulate this search for something
eternal in the transitory. I compare it to the image of that kernel in
Conrad's Heart of Darkness, where the "truth," the solid bedrock of
meaning, is within a nut and most people can never get through the
surrounding aura to reach it. Also, there's Yeats's refrain in some
poem about "the stone's in the midst of all," about a stone fixed in a
river, an image of something eternal that can somehow withstand
the "flow" of time.
Be that as it may, Forster is doing a fantastic job of illustrating
such a struggle within this novel. Where is your anchor during times
of flux and change? The Schlegal sisters use art and truth, but find
it doesn't quite work. Mr. Wilcox, perhaps, believes money is his
anchor. Then there was the deceased Mrs. Wilcox, who saw it as a
home with a tree. But Forster seems to indicate even that is
illusory--look what becomes of Wickham Place. Despite the
memories associated with it, it is razed to make room for some new
apartments.
Dan
Topic:
Howards End (52 of 74), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, January 10, 2000 05:32 PM
Daniel -- could you clarify the Yeats quote? Does the quote itself
contain reference to a stone in a river? I know, I know -- this was
about Howard's End. I am not rereading with the group but am
eavesdropping and this Yeats thing has kidnapped my brain
momentarily and I was wondering if it might relate to Hegi's title
Stones From The River even though I realize the action of taking
the stones from the river was in the novel -- just know also that
there were lots of literary references within her book due to the
setting of the bookstore/library of her central character's father. SO
-- if you can put the quote up elsewhere or briefly here.
Dottie -- wreaking havoc with apology
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Howards End (53 of 74), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (e.l.kuan@ecs.soton.ac.uk)
Date:
Tuesday, January 11, 2000 09:00 AM
Ann,
I couldn't quite get a handle on Mrs Wilcox initially. She seemed so
... dreamy and it seemed as if the only thing she really cared about
was Howards End, and then followed by her children. The only thing
she seemed really passionate about was her home. Perhaps she
married Mr Wilcox so that her home could be preserved? (Just a
thought.)
The quote Death destroys a man, but the idea of death saves him
boggled me. Just couldn't get my head round it. But Katie, good
insight and this idea makes a little more sense now. Certainly, the
idea of death drives people to do all manner of things for posterity.
This reminds me of Michael Moorcock's book Dancers At The End
Of Time, where it is the end of time, and people don't die and
aren't being born any more. There is no disease or suffering of any
kind. As a consequence the inhabitants of that time have no moral
standards or authority figures. They are bored out of their wits and
constantly trying to find new things to amuse themselves with,
which gets increasingly more and more difficult.
Dan, I felt that for the Schlegel sisters, ultimately their anchor was
the love that they felt for each other and the strong relationship
which they had built over the years so that it could withstand just
about anything.
Ee Lin
Topic:
Howards End (54 of 74), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, January 11, 2000 10:19 PM
I'm curious as to what others think of the opening to Chapter XXI:
Charles had just been scolding his Dolly. She deserved the scolding,
and had bent before it, but her head, though bloody, was
unsubdued, and her chirrupings began to mingle with his retreating
thunder.
"You've woken the baby. I knew you would..."
The passage indicates that Charles is doing significantly more than
"scolding his Dolly." Is Forster understating Charles' actions here in
order to emphasize them? Or am I misreading the passage?
Dan
Topic:
Howards End (55 of 74), Read 23 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, January 11, 2000 10:26 PM
Ee Lin,
Dancers At The End Of Time sounds like a very interesting book.
It's almost as though you need the bad in order to appreciate the
good, isn't it?
Katie expressed the meaning behind the phrase Death destroys a
man, but the idea of death saves him very well.
I think that there is a psychological protection mechanism that
operates in most of us which buries our sense of mortality very
deeply in the subconscious. It comes to the surface from time to
time, especially when someone close to us dies, and that can be
very difficult to deal with. But on a day to day basis, we don't think
about it.
This has great advantages. When this psychological protection
mechanism really breaks down, as it did with my mother in the latter
part of her life, it can almost paralyze the person. However, Forster
points out that we need to acknowledge our mortality from time to
time so that we don't waste the time available to us. It is too easy
to put off everything until a tomorrow which may never come.
Ee Lin, at first I thought that Mrs. Wilcox, who had a hard time
getting up in the morning, was severely depressed. Her illness did a
lot to explain her rather passive behavior. I recall something about
her husband promising to take her out of the rest home and then
ignoring his promise. Did I get that right? I seem to remember that
she wanted to go to Howards End one more time, but I couldn't find
what I was looking for when I went back to the text.
I think it is entirely plausible that she married Wilcox, in part at
least, so that she could hang onto Howards End. He did keep it from
going to ruin.
Ann
Topic:
Howards End (56 of 74), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 12:00 AM
Dan, I think you are reading too much into this passage. Dolly's
head was metaphorically bloody, I do believe. He woke the kid by
talking (or shouting) too much.
Theresa
Topic:
Howards End (57 of 74), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ee Lin Kuan (e.l.kuan@ecs.soton.ac.uk)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 05:42 AM
Ann, you summed up Dancers At The End Of Time perfectly. Also
agreed that the acknowledgement of our mortality certainly
motivates the events of our daily life. But the knowledge of our own
mortality also causes us to rush about our lives in a frantic pace,
trying to cram as much into as little a time as possible.
I don't recall the promise that Mr Wilcox would bring Mrs Wilcox
home to Howards End. But you pointed out that she didn't die at
Howards End. Isn't that sad for her, when she once mentioned to
Margaret, that it is terrible that people can't even be allowed to die
in the homes they were born in? (Sorry, I'm paraphrasing here,
since I don't have the book with me.)
Dan, I'm with Theresa. :-)
Ee Lin
Topic:
Howards End (58 of 74), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 11:39 AM
"Don't you know that all human ills and mean-spiritedness and
cowardice arise not from death but from fear of death! Against this
therefore fortify yourself. Direct all your discourses, readings,
exercises thereto. And then you will find that by this alone are men
made free." - Epictetus.
PRES
"and what is the use of a book," thought Alice, "without
pictures or conversations?"
Topic:
Howards End (59 of 74), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 12:26 PM
Pres & All: Speaking of our awareness of mortality, there's an
excellent and thought-provoking book on just that subject--THE
DENIAL OF DEATH, by the late sociologist Ernest Becker, which won
the Pulitzer for nonfiction in whatever year it came out.
In Becker's final book, ESCAPE FROM EVIL, he makes this
observation:
"When Tolstoy came to face death, what he really experienced was
anxiety about the meaning of his life. As he lamented in Confession:
What will come of my whole life.. Is there any meaning in my life
that the inevitable death awaiting me does not destroy?
"This is mankind's age-old dilemma in the face of death. It is the
meaning of the thing that is of paramount importance; what man
really fears is not so much extinction, but extinction with
insignificance..."
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Howards End (60 of 74), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 05:47 PM
Dale,
You'd think that if anyone could feel secure about the meaning of
his life it would be one of the greatest writers in European history.
But then, towards the end of his life, Tolstoy rejected much of his
earlier work because it was too elitist and not morally inspired.
Maybe he felt that he had wasted much of his life.
Tolstoy was such a huge intellect and had such a massive ego that
I think it was hard for him to imagine the world continuing to exist
without him. After all, it's hard for even the least of us mortals to
envision that.
And Ee Lin, I think you're right that too worrying about
accomplishments can make a person down right miserable.
Ann
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (61 of 74), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 05:59 PM
Chapter XIII, Margaret to Tibby
I believe in the last century men have developed the desire for
work, and they must not starve it. It's a new desire. It goes with a
great deal that's bad, but in itself it's good, and I hope that for
women, too, 'not to work' will soon become as shocking as 'not to
be married' was a hundred years ago.
This idea really interested me. For the wealthy classes, the idea
that one must do meaningful work in order to be happy was a
change. Trade, manual work or even a profession other than the
military or clergy were all considered demeaning for those who had
the choice of doing nothing.
Because I work at a company with an excellent pension plan, I
know many people who are retiring from full time work in their early
fifties. Is there any chance this emphasis on "work" as a necessary
part of one's identity will change?
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (62 of 74), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 08:11 PM
ANN
For a lot of us, our jobs have defined our reason for being on this
planet. We get up and head for our jobs which will make the world a
better place, and our work is acknowledged; by paycheck, status in
the community, standard of dress to conform to the peer group.
Even the amount of the world's resources we can waste, a sign of
wealth. People who look to you for advice, acknowledging your
worth by age. Everything is just hunky dorry, and then you retire.
No more late calls at night. No more jetting across the continent.
No more expense reports. No more youngsters hungry for your
position.
And then you retire. And it's all gone in one day. A huge void to be
filled. And how lucky to be a reader. It ain't all bad.
EDD retired in CA
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (63 of 74), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 08:13 PM
ANN
For a lot of us, our jobs have defined our reason for being on this
planet. We get up and head for our jobs which will make the world a
better place, and our work is acknowledged; by paycheck, status in
the community, standard of dress to conform to the peer group.
Even the amount of the world's resources we can waste, a sign of
wealth. People who look to you for advice, acknowledging your
worth by age. Everything is just hunky dorry, and then you retire.
No more late calls at night. No more jetting across the continent.
No more expense reports. No more youngsters hungry for your
position.
And then you retire. And it's all gone in one day. A huge void to be
filled. And how lucky to be a reader. It ain't all bad.
EDD retired in CA
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (64 of 74), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 10:33 PM
Theresa and Ee: "Metaphorically bloody?" Could someone explain
this to me and what exactly does a "metaphorically bloody" head
signify?
I view the theme of "having to work" eventually another example of
characters trying to find ways to cope with the "modern flux" of
society. If you don't have religion, and your family is in
shambles--hey! What about work? Live to work, as opposed to work
to live.
And Dale's quote about dying insignificantly reminds me of Faulkner's
choice expression: "Impotent fury." You can loathe death, but
you've no strength to do anything about it.
Dan
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (65 of 74), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Wednesday, January 12, 2000 11:54 PM
Dan: Bloody but unbowed means she felt the sting of his words, but
she hadn't totally caved, psychologically.
Theresa
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (66 of 74), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 13, 2000 08:36 AM
Ann: Good point. If Tolstoy, in old age, could feel insignificant, then
the rest of us mortals don't have a chance. I'm also reminded of the
poignant ending of SCHINDLER'S LIST, when Schindler, after saving
so many lives at risk to his own, feels wretched for not having
saved more.
Dan: I think that "bloody but unbowed," except for being more
poetic, is similar in intent to a whole host of modern-day violent
metaphors used particularly in the competitive business world..."We
ate their lunch"..."We killed 'em"..."We blew them out of the
water"...etc.
By the way...is the metaphor for angrily scolding somebody--"I
jumped in his sh_t"--a Southern expression, or is it used elsewhere?
I still remember the look of puzzlement on the face of a young
Japanese co-worker when somebody in the group used this one.
Taken literally, it conjures a strange mental picture, for sure.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (67 of 74), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 13, 2000 05:40 PM
Dale,
Sure sounds like a Southernism to me. I love it. I needed a good
belly laugh.
Thanks!
Janet
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (68 of 74), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, January 13, 2000 08:21 PM
Ann, I was struck by that necessity of work passage as well.
Doesn't it seem strange to think of people debating whether to
include "work" in their lives as an option instead of a necessity? I'm
always a little startled by the characters who see people who have
an occupation, even doctors, as beneath them in Jane Austen
novels. The Venetian character in An Instance of the Fingerpost is
lowering himself when he practices medicine.
And, Dale, getting in someone's sh_t is a well-known expression in
Michigan.
Barb...using her new Christmas laptop in bed...what a wonderful
luxury!
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (69 of 74), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, January 14, 2000 02:50 AM
DALE
Doesn't the phrase, "bloody but unbowed" come from the poem
INVICTUS? A poem by a young man who has lost his legs in an
accident(to a brewery wagon, I think). I take it to mean that the
human spirit cannot be conquered.
EDD
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (70 of 74), Read 26 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Friday, January 14, 2000 09:30 AM
Edd: By golly, Invictus it is! I was vaguely thinking the line was
from Shakespeare, and could even envision the word spelled
"unbow'd."
But here's the true source:
INVICTUS
By William Ernest Henley (1875)
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the full clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud,
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
***
I now recall that this one used to be a perennial favorite for
declamation competitions. Do students still declaim any more, I
wonder, or is it all done digitally now?
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (71 of 74), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Friday, January 14, 2000 05:56 PM
Edd -- Thank you.
Dale Thanks for posting it -- love this one -- great sounding piece.
Declaiming? I don't know -- DO students do this? I know that
students in elementary classes at the school where I worked do
memorize and say poetry to the teachers and aides during a long
unit of poetry (in third grade). I know the students in the GATE
program classes (gifted and talented education) memorized things
when my girls went through the program -- my older daughter
memorized and said The Highwayman in 5th grade. Her teacher
thought she was going to only do a part of it but -- she heard more
of it than she expected! To be honest -- I was surprised that she
memorized the whole thing.
I think she can still say some of it. I know the whole class had to
memorize and speak something. I am sure the classes in this
program still do some things of this nature and at least at our
school the regular classrooms were beginning to add similar
expectations though not as many to their curriculum plans.
Dottie -- who loves to say, read and hear such things -- The Raven
-- though I know some will groan, The Bells -- more groans
Invictus, The Highwayman, Annabel Lee which was touched on in
the Lolita discussion a while ago, Hiawatha which I just hear in
Dutch on a station here a week or so ago
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (72 of 74), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, January 16, 2000 10:35 AM
Dottie: And as for great declaiming material, I'd add Robert Burns
("a man's a man for a' that..."), although I imagine it'd lose a lot
without the accent.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Howards End -- the necessity of work (73 of 74), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Sunday, January 16, 2000 11:35 AM
Aye -- but still I will agree with you!
Dottie in a silly humor
ID is an oxymoron!
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