Amazon.com:
This edition of Hamlet represents a radically new text of the best known and most widely discussed of all Shakespearean tragedies. Arguing that the text currently accepted is not, in fact, the most authoritative version of the play, this new edition turns to the First Folio of 1623--Shakespeare's "fair copy"--that has been preserved for us in the Second Quarto. Introducing fresh theatrical momentum, this revision provides, as Shakespeare intended, a better, more practical acting script.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (22 of 22), Read 4 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Monday, October 29, 2001 09:31 AM
Speaking of coincidences, whoever timed Hamlet with
Halloween is a genius.
I try to approach Hamlet appreciating the small things first,
because the play is so intellectually monolithic. The play is one
of deepest mysteries, unsure identities, and pervasive
skepticism.
Just take the first scene, a scene whose significance slipped
under my radar for years. In the first 30 or so words of the
play, the audience is bombarded by personal identifiers:
'Who's, me, yourself, King, Barnado, he, you, your, thee,
Francisco, I.' Lines 3-5 enact a diminishing:
'King--->Barnado---->He'. From royal rank to name to
anonymity.
Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are indistinguishable from each
other, Hamlet has two fathers, there are two Hamlets, there are
2 plays within the play 'Hamlet', The play has 2 writers:
Shakespeare and Hamlet himself... the complexities are
endless, identities shifting sand.
I've always wondered if there is a single valid adjective in
'Hamlet', a solitary one that says what it means. Take a
relatively simple sequence from a relatively simple character
(Claudius)- Act I, scene 2:
KING CLAUDIUS:
'Tis sweet and commendable in your nature, Hamlet,
To give these mourning duties to your father:
But, you must know, your father lost a father;
That father lost, lost his, and the survivor bound
In filial obligation for some term
To do obsequious sorrow: but to persever
In obstinate condolement is a course
Of impious stubbornness; 'tis unmanly grief;
It shows a will most incorrect to heaven,
A heart unfortified, a mind impatient,
An understanding simple and unschool'd:
For what we know must be and is as common
As any the most vulgar thing to sense,
Why should we in our peevish opposition
Take it to heart? Fie! 'tis a fault to heaven,
A fault against the dead, a fault to nature,
To reason most absurd: whose common theme
Is death of fathers, and who still hath cried,
From the first corse till he that died to-day,
'This must be so.' We pray you, throw to earth
This unprevailing woe, and think of us
As of a father: for let the world take note,
You are the most immediate to our throne;
And with no less nobility of love
Than that which dearest father bears his son,
Do I impart toward you. For your intent
In going back to school in Wittenberg,
It is most retrograde to our desire:
And we beseech you, bend you to remain
Here, in the cheer and comfort of our eye,
Our chiefest courtier, cousin, and our son.
QUEEN GERTRUDE:
Let not thy mother lose her prayers, Hamlet:
I pray thee, stay with us; go not to Wittenberg.
HAMLET:
I shall in all my best obey you, madam.
KING CLAUDIUS:
Why, 'tis a loving and a fair reply:
Be as ourself in Denmark. Madam, come;
This gentle and unforced accord of Hamlet
Sits smiling to my heart: in grace whereof,
No jocund health that Denmark drinks to-day,
But the great cannon to the clouds shall tell,
And the king's rouse the heavens all bruit again,
Re-speaking earthly thunder. Come away.'
Calling Hamlet's feelings 'simple, unschooled, peevish' is so
wide of the mark as to be surreal... unless these are calculated
taunts. After blocks of persuasion, calling Hamlet's accession to
stay in the court a 'gentle and unforced accord' is hilarious (or
sly?), and the desire of Claudius to keep the extremely
dangerous and unpredictable Hamlet at hand (on a leash, so to
speak) is couched in the deception: 'Here, in the cheer and
comfort of our eye' Cheer and comfort my ass.
But all the power of words is not doubted... one of my favorite
moments is in the very beginning: HORATIO:
Well, sit we down,
And let us hear Bernardo speak of this.
BERNARDO:
Last night of all,
When yond same star that's westward from the pole
Had made his course to illume that part of heaven
Where now it burns, Marcellus and myself,
The bell then beating one,--
[Enter Ghost]
Apparently the Ghost doesn't just show up when the bell beats
one, he arrives when the words describing the bell are spoken
too. The story, here, summons the ghost. This play, all in all, is
the greatest summoning of thoughts ever put to paper.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (28 of 32), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Thursday, November 01, 2001 01:27 PM
From the first line in "Hamlet" we know that something is
wrong. Barnardo is going to relieve Francisco. Barnardo
speaks first, not a greeting but a challenge. To which
Francsico's response says, in effect, "Hey, I'm the one
who's on guard here." This is noted in the World's Classics
Oxford edition. The note also says that this should be
staged so that the audience is quite clear as to who is on
guard duty. We soon find out that Barnardo is jumpy
because he is spooked.
The ghost may or may not be Hamlet's father. All that is
known for sure is that it looks like dead Hamlet senior. As
the play is titled "Hamlet, the Prince of Denmark" one
would expect that young Hamlet now sits on the throne.
We learn, however, that young Hamlet has not taken his
rightful place but that it is his uncle who now reigns. This
is very disturbing but the tension rises quickly when we
see that Hamlet attends the wedding of the new king and
his mother dressed in black. This is an act of treason. Only
the thin ambiguity of the situation insulates Hamlet from
the fatal consequences of such an act. Hamlet is telling
the world that he does not accept Claudius as the king. It
is very daring of Hamlet to make this known. Hamlet is
later still more daring when he speaks under the even
thinner protection of his feigned madness.
The struggle between Hamlet and Claudius for the throne
cannot be so open or brutal as to turn the kingdom
against the victor or destabilize the kingdom already
threatened from without. Everything must outwardly
appear to be orderly but we see the seething emotions
beneath the surface. Claudius and Gertrude must have
had some assumption that Hamlet would accept the
situation. As it turns out, he doesn't.
When Claudius refuses to let Hamlet leave Elsinore, he
has fresh in his mind the efforts of Fortinbras in the
countryside to raise an army. So he puts Hamlet under
what amounts to house arrest.
This struggle means that it is very dangerous to be
associated with either side. Look what happened to the
spies Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. Laertes tells Ophilia
to fear association with Hamlet. Polonius, as her father,
tells her to leave Hamlet because he is feckless. Later,
Polonius, as the servant to the king, uses his daughter as
bait to trap Hamlet. This is why Hamlet refers to Polonius
as Jephtha, the Judge of Israel, who sacrificed his
daughter (Judges 11:30-40).
If Hamlet had married Ophelia the very risk that she would
bear an heir to the throne would seal her fate. "Sweets
for the sweet," indeed.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (29 of 32), Read 36 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Thursday, November 01, 2001 01:40 PM
Ah, already so many delightful and challenging posts here.
Like George, I find I am fascinated by the story within the
story of this play...of the identity and the art about
identity...
Johnathan, you wondered if anyone had an offbeat
perspective on this play that you could serve up to
impress your teacher. I do. It is a perspective I have
argued many a time and I think the world could use a
decent essay about this: I take a stand that Ophelia is
not mad, does not go mad. I say,, she kills herself
because of the absolute truth of Hamlets ideas about
women in civilization...that it is only important how she
looks it doesn't matter if a woman is virtuous or kind or
intelligent. Ophelia has her own existential breakdown,
just like Hamlet. I also take the stand that Hamlet is not a
knave but a hero...but sadly he can not find a way for his
artful vision to help the people in his life...anyway mnore
later...must chew on Dean's latest post!
Topic:
November: Hamlet (30 of 32), Read 37 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Thursday, November 01, 2001 02:57 PM
Dean--
Perceptive notes and remarks... but you're perceiving one
angle I cannot see. I can't find one moment in the play
where I feel Hamlet and Claudius are dueling for the
throne- Hamlet seems to me outrageously indifferent to
questions of power and politics. He is a student, content
to be (to paraphrase) the king of a nutshell, attracted to
intellectual debate, theatricality, and reading. That
personality doesn't lend itself to the necessary 'otherness'
of kingship. In my conception, Ophelia is twisted out of
Hamlet's sphere by lies that paint him as a machiavellian
'prince', which he couldn't be less like.
Hamlet writes some of 'Hamlet', the most important parts
being: a poem in a letter-
'Doubt thou the stars are fire;
Doubt that the sun doth move;
Doubt truth to be a liar;
But never doubt I love.
'O dear Ophelia, I am ill at these numbers;
I have not art to reckon my groans: but that
I love thee best, O most best, believe it. Adieu.
'Thine evermore most dear lady, whilst
this machine is to him, HAMLET.'
a letter to Claudius-
'High and mighty, You shall know I am set naked on
your kingdom. To-morrow shall I beg leave to see
your kingly eyes: when I shall, first asking your
pardon thereunto, recount the occasion of my sudden
and more strange return. 'HAMLET.'
and (most probably) this speech of 'The Mousetrap'-
Player King:
I do believe you think what now you speak;
But what we do determine oft we break.
Purpose is but the slave to memory,
Of violent birth, but poor validity;
Which now, like fruit unripe, sticks on the tree;
But fall, unshaken, when they mellow be.
Most necessary 'tis that we forget
To pay ourselves what to ourselves is debt:
What to ourselves in passion we propose,
The passion ending, doth the purpose lose.
The violence of either grief or joy
Their own enactures with themselves destroy:
Where joy most revels, grief doth most lament;
Grief joys, joy grieves, on slender accident.
This world is not for aye, nor 'tis not strange
That even our loves should with our fortunes change;
For 'tis a question left us yet to prove,
Whether love lead fortune, or else fortune love.
The great man down, you mark his favourite flies;
The poor advanced makes friends of enemies.
And hitherto doth love on fortune tend;
For who not needs shall never lack a friend,
And who in want a hollow friend doth try,
Directly seasons him his enemy.
But, orderly to end where I begun,
Our wills and fates do so contrary run
That our devices still are overthrown;
Our thoughts are ours, their ends none of our own:
So think thou wilt no second husband wed;
But die thy thoughts when thy first lord is dead.
These writings emerge from a mind too plainly brilliant to
be concerned with mere royal concerns. Or even most
practical concerns. Hamlet, after all, leaves Messrs. R&G
alive to spy for almost the entirety of the play. Hamlet, in
the first scene, dreams more of suicide than rebellion... if
he had been allowed to leave for Wittenburg or
alternatively if the ghost had never appeared, I'd guess
Hamlet would've lived out Claudius's reign searching for
mental truth and searching hard for himself.
I don't want to overstress Hamlet's vaunted sensitivity
however- most of the times I read this play I end up
counting Hamlet as Shakespeare's greatest villain. He kills
on whim (R&G), in Polonius' case indiscriminately, and it's
hard to argue he didn't know he would end up killing the
insanely bereaved (and generally innocent)Laertes in a
swordfight. O, and he slaughters Ophelia's mind and spirit
while he's at it. These are not power plays, they are the
actions of a (however noble) mind completely at home
with death.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (31 of 32), Read 27 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:55 PM
Why does Claudius send Hamlet to be killed under the
loose guard of R&G if Claudius himself does not see
Hamlet as a threat?
Also, Hamlet is not so fond of killing that he does not
spare Claudius while he is at prayer. Besides deaths are a
usual occurrence in a civil war.
I hear in Hamlet's suicidal speeches rage and frustration
at the turn of fortunes which have been thrust upon him.
The throne has been taken from him and he sees no way
of getting it back.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (32 of 32), Read 28 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Friday, November 02, 2001 12:32 AM
I absolutely agree that Claudius sees Hamlet as a threat,
though I suspect Claudius has guessed that the (his
words) ' something in his soul,
O'er which his melancholy sits on brood...' is the grief over
his father's murder and desire for revenge, not politically
motivated concerns. Regardless, Claudius IS fighting for
his throne/life, I just don't believe Hamlet is also
struggling to gain a crown.
Here, by the way, is Hamlet's reason for sparing Claudius
at prayer:
HAMLET:
Now might I do it pat, now he is praying;
And now I'll do't. And so he goes to heaven;
And so am I revenged. That would be scann'd:
A villain kills my father; and for that,
I, his sole son, do this same villain send
To heaven.
O, this is hire and salary, not revenge.
He took my father grossly, full of bread;
With all his crimes broad blown, as flush as May;
And how his audit stands who knows save heaven?
But in our circumstance and course of thought,
'Tis heavy with him: and am I then revenged,
To take him in the purging of his soul,
When he is fit and season'd for his passage?
No!
Up, sword; and know thou a more horrid hent:
When he is drunk asleep, or in his rage,
Or in the incestuous pleasure of his bed;
At gaming, swearing, or about some act
That has no relish of salvation in't;
Then trip him, that his heels may kick at heaven,
And that his soul may be as damn'd and black
As hell, whereto it goes.
That is not exactly a comforting rationale to me, or a
reason to see Hamlet as without a dark side.
I see where Claudius is hungry for power, in his actions
and words. Plainly stated. Claudius says:
' 'Forgive me my foul murder'?
That cannot be; since I am still possess'd
Of those effects for which I did the murder,
My crown, mine own ambition and my queen.
May one be pardon'd and retain the offence?'
Where is a correspondingly plain statement of Hamlet's
need to be king? I can't find even the hint of one.
I don't want to quibble overmuch on this point- power
politics do play a role in the play, as your note clearly
showed, and I'm sure could lead to an interesting
discussion. I just want to read the character of Hamlet
himself as accurately as possible, since he speaks a full
third of the play's lines. I just can't see Hamlet as a
metaphysical Robespierre.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (33 of 59), Read 52 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Friday, November 02, 2001 05:04 PM
Could Claudius (should be Odious) have been next in line
for the throne? The rest of the court doesn't act like he
usurped it.
I like George's comments about Hamlet's personality
being that of a thinker, an explorer of ideas, rather than a
seeker of power or the military type, despite his ability
with the sword. The fact that Hamlet is a thirty year old
student suggests that he is intellectually inclined, possibly
involved in what would be graduate level studies, and his
facility with language and his insights indicate a
prodigious mind. I bet Shakespeare identified with him.
When I read this play in high school there was discussion
about Hamlet's tragic flaw being his reticence to act, but
upon reading it again I don't see Hamlet's hesitation to kill
Claudius as a flaw. In order for Hamlet to kill Claudius and
then not be executed himself, he would have to provide
proof that Claudius murdered his father. It makes sense
that Hamlet would want to confirm his suspicions first and
even then he would need to convince key people of
Claudius' guilt before he took action, otherwise avenging
his father's death would be tantamount to suicide. So, I
find it reasonable that Hamlet waited to act and instead
did his own method of sleuthing first.
Hamlet's acting mad seemed to carry an emotional
satisfaction, as if he were "acting out" which provided a
necessary vehicle for his rage and frustration. I question
that Hamlet consciously decided to act mad so much as he
just spontaneously acted that way, even HAD to act that
way, in order to accommodate his erratic and
overwhelmed emotional state. His mind may have been
clear but his emotions were not under control, and in
order to keep his suspicions under wrap this is how it all
came out. There may have been method to his madness,
yet a type of madness still it was.
Robt
Topic:
November: Hamlet (34 of 59), Read 38 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Friday, November 02, 2001 09:14 PM
Robert--
Very good points. I too read Hamlet's stalling more
forgivingly than I did in my own youth.
There is a problem though. If I called Hamlet dull,
essentially an ass, as frivolous with his words as a hooker
is with her body, and lacking of true passion, I would
probably be way off the mark. All these things, however,
are what Hamlet says about his own character. Assuredly
he is wrong, but he is extremely critical of himself. I don't
think he is stalling to find a sneaky way to kill Claudius
without being killed in return. I think he is dealing with
some essential questions of life and death.
I think Hamlet is caught by honesty. He knows that the
clearest ming is a mind that can consider things without
an agenda.
I'm gonna try to make this as clear as my interior muddles
will allow. Look at what Claudius says in IV, 7, 117-122.
That is exactly the sentiment that devastates Hamlet...
Claudius says it without batting an eye. Why? Because
Claudius is NOT thinking about what he's saying, he's
deploying his sentiments like puppetstrings, because he
wants his words to coerce Laertes into killing Hamlet. If
one is speaking to manipulate, one doesn't care about
the content of what one says... only the effect matters.
Hamlet, the ultimate student, wants to consider all things
without trying to prove anything. Claudius doesn't have
TIME to feel remorseful until months after his heinous
act... he's too busy spitting forth sentences like
battalions.
This is probably why Hamlet is fascinated by actors and
theatricality-- the agendas of actors are NOT the agendas
of their characters. They have driven a wedge between
what, say, Julius Caesar says he wants and what the
actor who plays Caesar wants. If one can add agendas to
words, one can subtract them, get down to the
bedrock-zero of agendaless clarity...or as Hamlet said
best: 'the readiness is all'.
Forgive this ramble... it is what your post provoked in me.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (35 of 59), Read 40 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Friday, November 02, 2001 10:39 PM
George,
It's Hamlet's desire for "agendaless clarity" that most
endears him to me. Yes, I see that he is consumed with
questions of life and death that arise out of his terrible
situation. What I am reacting to is some distant classroom
discussion about Hamlet's tragic flaw, like Macbeth's
ambition or Richard's lust for power, where Hamlet was
reduced to reticence, and I can't see Hamlet's immersion
in philosophy as a flaw.
I suppose Hamlet could have just poisoned the King and
taken a boat to the continent and started again under an
assumed name thereby avenging his father's death and
surviving. But that would be running out on his kingdom,
too, and Hamlet had more of a sense of leadership than
that.
Hamlet's challenge was such a huge conundrum (like how
to stop terrorism!) that all his presuppositions were
shattered. There's just no easy philosophy to inhabit.
Every turn is problematic. To nuke or nuzzle, that is the
question. Sorry, it's late and I'm mixing historical periods
here. Anyway, there's a ramble in return.
Robt
Topic:
November: Hamlet (36 of 59), Read 34 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Saturday, November 03, 2001 08:03 PM
Whoa and wow! So much here...
I tend to see a huge part of this story as how the truth
has transformed people and a search on how do we take
truth and history and live with it, love with it, avenge the
crimes and not take the innocents with the punishment.
Hamlet would have been content to be a student..what
happens is that he finds history and truth. Now, why that
is communicated by a ghost appearance I could not say, I
find that storytelling device of a ghost representing truth
and history amazing(and deserving a different post/s)...
but a huge part of the plot is that truth/history changes
Hamlets destiny/self destiny...he is transformed by history
of his fathers death/life and then everything rests on how
he acts and processes history.
Hamlet is terribly clumsy. He basically kills Ophelia by
being heavy handed with his knowledge(a strange twist
on Adam and Eve where Eve corrupts Adam, here Hamlet
corrupts Ophelia)...he has an epiphany...
and somehow he takes his own epiphany and forcefeeds
it on everyone else around him...I see this as how do we
process oour personal truths and community truths...how
much liberty does a 'realized person' have on his
community?
And one of the most important aspects of this story is that
Hamlets life is only begun once he hears the ghosts
history, once he ends his childhood...once the bubble is
broken. It is a weird coming of age story because our
hero is so old. (uh oh, Hitchcock reference
here-Hitchcock's hero's are often like Hamlet...they are
way too old to be having coming of age, they are single at
an age we would think is unhealthy) It is unhealthy that
Hamlet is so old. This indicates a protected life and it is
sad that his fathers death also means that discovering
the history is without the guidance of his father/wiseman.
Anyway, I can only ramble because I feel desperate to
throw out things that enter my thoughts about Hamlet...
A conflict of the play is that the audience feels compassion
and frustration because we suddenly see that the throne
belongs to the wrong person...it's not wrong or right that
there is a struggle for throne...it is a frustration and moral
sense of justice for the audience to feel. It is not wrong or
right about Hamlets role in this, he is almost oblivious to
his right to the throne---he is a king because he is
struggling to find a way to the right thing...sadly his
feeling for justice throws the baby out with the
bathwater...
Topic:
November: Hamlet (37 of 59), Read 38 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Saturday, November 03, 2001 08:22 PM
"Sense of leadership" yes and he states specifically that
he hoped for the crown when he lists his grievances
against Claudius in Act V, scene ii, lines 65-67
He that hath kill'd my king and whored my mother,
Popp'd in between the election and my hopes,
Thrown out his angle for my proper life
Hamlet wants it all as he tells Opehlia in
Act III, scene i, lines 89-90
I am very
proud, revengeful, ambitious,
Hamlet cannot be suicidal and at the same time afraid of
dying for killing Claudius. Hamlet is chafing at the intrigues
which he has to use to attain what he wants, what he
feels is rightfully his.
What confines Hamlet is that he wants it all. When he
doesn't kill Claudius at prayer Hamlet wants even more:
he wants revenge, the throne and Cladius damned to
hell. To kill him at prayer would send him to heaven.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (38 of 59), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Saturday, November 03, 2001 08:44 PM
I can see how it might appear that Hamlet can not kill
himself. Also, I think that the idea of a bad guy getting
into heaven just because he died while praying could be a
logical area of irritation to Hamlet. But I look at the whole
thing with Hamlet not as though he wimped out on death
or suicide. I feel he did not become truly alive until he
heard of history and truth of his fathers death...and that
he was not able to be completely human? alive? come of
age? ----until---he asked himself and acknowledged that
he himself could decide wherther life was of his choosing,
whether he was up for it. I feel there is a step between
his knowledge of history and life...and then his realization
that he could live to the fullest, and if he wasn't going to
embrace the challenges and the good news bad news of
history, he could die.
I feel that this play suggests that we all ask our selves
how do we want to-well heh heh "play"?
Are we good sports or sore losers?
much to think of here...
hello Dean and George and Janet and Robert and
Jonathan and all the brave of Hamlet readers...
seize the day eh?
Candy
That for which we find words is something already dead in
our hearts. There is always a kind of contempt in the act
of speaking. Nietzsche
Topic:
November: Hamlet (39 of 59), Read 34 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Saturday, November 03, 2001 10:45 PM
I'm sorry, I myself just can't believe in Hamlet's supposed
thirst for royalty, a notion which renders Hamlet the same
as Macbeth and hence less original a character. Logic tells
me that if all Hamlet really wanted was the throne of
Denmark the play would only be one Act long... because
Hamlet is light-years more intelligent than Claudius, and it
would only take him a scene or so to figure out how to
get it. Regardless, the cunning engineer of the deaths of
R&G would kill Claudius covertly and not risk being
executed as a regicide or confined as a madman, the
likeliest consequences of publicly killing a king.
Hamlet is not primarily struggling with the unworthy
Claudius... he is primarily struggling with himself. And if
'Hamlet' is just a psychologically-advanced study of
Kremlin-style politics, how much sadder for us as readers.
Hamlet doesn't need court intruiges to feel isolated, he is
isolated by the mere quality of his character and the
depth of his mind. Remember, this brilliant son of a
warrior-king was in academia before the assassination,
not chafing at the bit to lead armies of his own. His father
was a natural man torn right from the pages of viking
sagas. Hamlet is the opposite of his father, and obviously
a lot of his melancholy stems from that fact. As for
example, when Hamlet refers to himself disdainfully here:
'O, God! a beast, that wants discourse of reason,
Would have mourn'd longer--married with my uncle,
My father's brother, but no more like my father
Than I to Hercules:'
As his own opposite Hamlet chooses Hercules, showing
his recognition that brute, unthoughtful force is the
furthest thing from him. It is not, however, the furthest
thing from Hamlet Sr. It's pretty damn close. Hamlet Sr.
presumably envisioned a son much like Hotspur from
Henry IV one. Hamlet obviously feels much guilt for not
being that son. These are the roots of Hamlet's isolation,
and probably play a large share in determining his
difficulty in taking brutal, Laertes-like revenge...
Topic:
November: Hamlet (40 of 59), Read 39 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 12:33 AM
Claudius is every bit a match for Hamlet. He is clever,
charming and loved by the people. He is a good king who
prepares for war yet sends ambassadors to try for a
diplomatic solution. He is shrewd enough to have
murdered the king with impunity and charming enough to
have gained support in obtaining the crown for which his
wedding to Gertrude was a factor. Hamlet's issue with the
marriage is not that it happened but that it happened so
quickly. The timing of it allowed Claudius to pop in
between the election and Hamlet's hope for the crown.
Hercules was not a symbol of brute force. He used much
cleverness in the completion of his labours. What we do
get from this passage is how much Hamlet detests
Claudius.
Hi, Candy. The news which Horatio brings of a ghost in
the image of his father gives Hamlet some hope of
breaking out of the confinement in which Claudius has
just placed him and furthering his ambitions.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (41 of 59), Read 34 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 02:31 AM
Dean--
My sincerest apologies, but I am done debating this
particular issue with you. To say that Hamlet approved of
the marriage of Claudius and Gertrude except for the
speed with which it took place, and only objected on the
grounds that it blocked his march to power, these are
ideas so far from the play I'm reading I can't even
dialogue with them. To say that, for whatever his virtues,
Claudius is an intellectual match for Hamlet-that is a
diminishment of Hamlet I can't even fathom. Presumably
you would be as fascinated by the play 'King Claudius' as
you are by this one- I can't say the same. To say 'The
news which Horatio brings of a ghost in the image of his
father gives Hamlet some hope of breaking out of the
confinement in which Claudius has just placed him and
furthering his ambitions.' is amazing... I can only surmise
that, by your conception, the ghost's appearance near the
end of the play is to further Hamlet's ambitions some
more? Nothing personal, but to take a play and a
character complex enough to hold universes in and reduce
them down to an anecdote from some Machiavellian
power manual, to boil down Hamlet's 'quintessence of
dust' speech to his despair at not having a crown with
which to adorn his brow, these are things I want no part
of...
Topic:
November: Hamlet (42 of 59), Read 31 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 02:55 PM
I have done poorly with plays in the past. They just aren't
my thing (should be ashamed of it!) But Hamlet is the
great exception. I have read it perhaps a couple of times,
seen it as a film and had the good fortunate to visit
Elsenor Castle while on a short visit to Denmark. The
castle is very impressive but did not look like the castle
that was presented in the movies. Can't wait to get
started on it.
Pretty soon my own computer will be set up and I may
well overwhelm you nice people with postings. Up to now
I shared a computer with my very busy wife and at times
even with grand kids.
Ernie
Topic:
November: Hamlet (43 of 59), Read 30 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 03:05 PM
Get that computer humming, Ernie. I'm looking forward to
your comments.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
November: Hamlet (44 of 59), Read 36 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 05:20 PM
Welcome, Ernie.
The ghost tells Hamlet of the skill of Claudius and blames
him as the seducer:
Act I, scene v, 42-45
Ay, that incestuous, that adulterate beast,
With witchcraft of his wit, with traitorous gifts,--
O wicked wit and gifts, that have the power
So to seduce!
He tells Hamlet not to bother his mother
Act I, scene v, 84-86
But, howsoever thou pursuest this act,
Taint not thy mind, nor let thy soul contrive
Against thy mother aught: leave her to heaven...
In Act III Hamlet confronts his mother with charges of
murder, incest and adultery. He causes her great distress
by berating her for having let herself be seduced by
Claudius. Hamlet lists Claudius's evils, telling his mother
why her marriage to Claudius bothers him so. He ends the
list with the most important thing, the fact that Claudius
stole the crown from Hamlet:
Act III, scene iv, 88-93
A murderer and a villain;
A slave that is not twentieth part the tithe
Of your precedent lord; a vice of kings;
A cutpurse of the empire and the rule,
That from a shelf the precious diadem stole,
And put it in his pocket!
When the ghost arrives Hamlet is reminded of the
injunction against offending his mother:
Act III, scene iv, 99-101
Do you not come your tardy son to chide,
That, lapsed in time and passion, lets go by
The important acting of your dread command? O, say!
The ghost responds
Act III, scene iv, 102-103
Do not forget: this visitation
Is but to whet thy almost blunted purpose.
What the ghost wants and what Hamlet promised is
revenge. Hamlet had missed his chance for revenge
because Claudius was at prayer. The irony is that
Claudius was not in a state that would have sent him to
heaven had Hamlet killed him then. The ghost reminds
Hamlet that he promised to put revenge at the top of the
list. As Robert said in #35, Hamlet could easily revenge his
father and leave. It is Hamlet's desire for what is rightfully
his which complicates matters. Hamlet is compelled to kill
Claudius but he wants to do it so that he obtains the
crown. Claudius is compelled to kill Hamlet but he must
find a way to do it so that he is assured of keeping the
crown.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (45 of 59), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 07:52 PM
I love the whole mad theme. Hamlet figures the world he
inhabits has gone mad so why can't he? The ghost,
although I believe in ghosts, is a theatrically effective
metaphor for Hamlet's awareness of the true horror of the
situation. Hamlet is also horrified that everybody's
pretending that everything's all right, which renders the
social atmosphere at Elsinor like a dance of denial with
treachery lurking at every curtsy. So, Hamlet was just
cracking up that they think HE'S mad! Oh, please. He
thinks: you're the ones who are crazy; you people are full
of s#!+. So, Hamlet played the satirist. Satire holds a
prime position: you can draw on the experiences of both
comedy and tragedy and it is perfectly permissible for one
to have a happy ending. The role appeals to me.
Does Hamlet seek wisdom or power? I see Hamlet as a
tragic hero, rather than a tragic villain, who is gifted,
noble and aware. He desires truth over glory. I see his
motivation to be king more about leadership than a lust to
be number one. Fortinbras offers a tribute to Hamlet at
the play's finale. Claudius is the villain.
Change the scenery. The World Trade Center is
destroyed. Suddenly we're on a world stage. Clandestine
invaders threaten the kingdom. It is dramatic. It is a
complete conundrum. It has the trappings of tragedy but I
refuse to designate a genre. I don't want bodies littered
all over the place with all the principle characters dead
and me the title character. So, what are the alternatives?
Calling our current events a comedy is a stretch but if we
hold to Shakespeare, we're going to divide things in two,
so I'll aim for the lighter side, eking out of it a satiric
stance. Perhaps I'll have to play mad and drop the whole
psyche for a spell to look at things from an entirely other
perspective. Hamlet, my friend, I am looking for truth, too.
Robt
Topic:
November: Hamlet (46 of 59), Read 34 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 08:08 PM
Dean--
I'm sorry, I simply disagree. One more whip to apply to
the flesh of this late & lamented horse... 2 simple
questions:
If, as you say, Hamlet passes on killing Claudius at prayer
because 'Hamlet is compelled to kill Claudius but he wants
to do it so that he obtains the crown.', then why does he
not say or even think that then? Why, instead, does he
say he passes to find a more horrible revenge later? Is he
lying to himself? Or does he not understand his own
motives?
And if the crown and a clever murder are Hamlet's quest
then why does he go to the fencing duel he knows is a
trap and kill Claudius in front of the entire court? His
ACTUAL way of killing Claudius is diametrically opposed to
any plan of gaining power. It would be inconceivable to
argue that Hamlet, Horatio's warnings in his ears, going
to face the revenge-drunk Laertes, doesn't at least
suspect the endgame is at hand. In fact, we KNOW
Hamlet suspects, because he says so in this breathtaking
passage:
'Not a whit, we defy augury: there's a special
providence in the fall of a sparrow. If it be now,
'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be
now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the
readiness is all: since no man has aught of what he
leaves, what is't to leave betimes?'
So if he suspects, and he wants the kingship, why does
he go? I implore you to search this glorious quotation that
reduces all earthly things, crowns included, to their proper
minor perspective. Don't let this beauty pass you by in a
hunt for clues to a power-hungry Hamlet that doesn't or
only fitfully exists.
I'll only add that I would be suspicious of ANYONE (myself
included) who claimed to have discovered a single ruling
motivation for Prince Hamlet, since the greatness and
complexity of the play banishes that possibility. I don't
have these answers either, but I do have a strong drive
to try at least to look in the right places.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (47 of 59), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 09:59 PM
I think we have reached that point where it is time for me
to step in with a reminder that everyone has a right to
express his opinion and be treated with respect -- no
matter how radically someone may disagree with him.
We've traveled this route before with The Brothers
Karamazov. Let's not go there again. It's time to agree to
disagree and move on.
Robt, our English teachers must have studied the same
books. My English teacher was also big on fatal flaws, and
Hamlet's supposedly was his inability to act. Yet, as you
pointed out, he certainly had a lot of good reasons to
proceed with caution, and that interpretation doesn't
make a lot of sense to me now.
Most of the actors who have played Hamlet have been
middle-aged. Since he is described as a student, I always
thought that he should be played by someone much
younger. You referred to him as a thirty-year old student.
Does the text tell us how old he is? The younger he is, the
more his emotional turmoil makes sense to me. Of course,
discovering that your uncle murdered your father with the
connivance of your mother would be enough to push most
of us over the edge. Note that the Gertrude/Claudius
relationship is repeatedly referred to as "incestuous"
since in those days marrying a former brother-in-law was
against Church law unless you had a special dispensation.
That must have made it seem even more horrible.
I have a question. In the scene where Hamlet tells
Ophelia to get to a nunnery, does he know that he is
being observed? In the Branagh movie he did, but I don't
know if that is how the scene is usually interpreted. It's
true that Hamlet treats Ophelia abominably, but isn't his
anger understandable in light of the fact that Ophelia has
totally rejected him at the request of her father? This
must have hit him particularly hard since it came at a time
when he was feeling such despair.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (48 of 59), Read 30 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 10:16 PM
Beej,
How is the side by side version of Hamlet going? I'd be
interested if you could post a short excerpt from the
modern English version.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (49 of 59), Read 31 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Sunday, November 04, 2001 10:59 PM
Hamlet's age is indicated in Act V, scene i, 174-175 when
we are told that Yorick's skull has been in the ground for
23 years. Hamlet says that he remembers that Yorick
carried him on his shoulders. That would put Hamlet in his
late twenties or early thirties.
We get a strong indication that Hamlet has overheard
Polonius's plan to "...loose my daughter to him:..." when
Hamlet refers to Polonius as Jephthah.
Jephthah, one of the Judges of Israel, promised God that
if he won a certain battle he would sacrifice the first
creature to greet him on his return home from battle. On
his return, the first to greet him was his only daughter.
Jephthah kept his word to God and sacrificed her. (Judges
11:30-40)
In mid-conversation with Polonius, Hamlet begins to sing
a popular ballad about Jephthah. Polonius says that like
Jephthah he has a daughter whom he loves. Hamlet says
that it "does not follow" with the double meaning that it
isn't the next line of the ballad or it doesn't follow that he
loves his daughter as he would use her for political ends.
Act II, scene ii, 400-406
HAMLET
O Jephthah, judge of Israel, what a treasure hadst thou!
LORD POLONIUS
What a treasure had he, my lord?
HAMLET
Why,
'One fair daughter and no more,
The which he loved passing well.'
HAMLET
Am I not i' the right, old Jephthah?
LORD POLONIUS
If you call me Jephthah, my lord, I have a daughter
that I love passing well.
HAMLET
Nay, that follows not.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (50 of 59), Read 27 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 08:39 AM
Ann--
If your reminder was directed at me, I apologize... there
was absolutely no offense intended. Sometimes I make
the mistake of arguing too hard for things I care about. I
will honor your wishes, however, and express no more
opinions on that matter.
I get tricked sometimes by the vividness of works like
'Hamlet' (I loved Robert's post when it turned, at the end,
to address Hamlet directly) into taking it as seriously as
life itself, and getting too passionate about it. Once again
(old story), I got carried away. Forgive me.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (51 of 59), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 09:29 AM
Here's my contribution to the ramblings.....
I see Hamlet as a man of integrity, pensive intelligence,
and a deep commitment to honor. He is not a politician,
but he is caught up in the politics of court life.
Hamlet has had the luxury of being a lifelong student in
Wittenberg, and has been taught to debate and consider
many perspectives. Taking action has not been required
to this point in his life. He's 30 years old, and has spent
those years in the comfortable knowledge that he will
assume the throne at his father's death, which he thinks
is many years away. To my knowledge, he has never had
to assume the mantle of authority.
All of a sudden, he finds his father has been poisoned,
and his mother, who cuckolded the king, has married his
uncle. That would tend to upset anyone, particularly a
philosopher with royal obligations. He is not power
hungry, but he does have a sense of noble responsibility,
I think. He was raised as a prince, after all.
He debates the merits of suicide, the nature of life, and
murderous revenge. He loses his beloved Ophelia through
the machinations of Polonius, a foolish, predictable crony
of the king. Hamlet holds Polonius in disdain. I think he
chides Ophelia to get to a nunnery because he's too worn
out to deal with a woman who does not think on her own,
and who is so easily turned on him.
Ophelia is a bit of a dilemma for me. On the one hand,
she's a ninny, easily manipulated. On the other, her
situation is such that her personal security is caught
between the sure protection of her father and the king,
and the iffy future of Hamlet. Since this is Shakespeare, I
suppose we're meant to accept her descent into a true
madness. But, I have to wonder if she simply decides life
is too much to bother with. I think she knew exactly what
she was doing.
Two people, Ophelia and Hamlet, use madness for their
own ends. The courtiers are readily accepting of mad
behavior because it fits with their political and personal
expectations. It seems to me that only two people think
with any depth - Claudius and Hamlet. Their motivations
are what distinguish them. Claudius is driven solely by
protecting his throne. Hamlet, though, is burdened with
the ability to consider a situation beyond its surface.
Hamlet is surrounded by manipulative people playing
political games. He decides to hide behind a mask of
madness until he can get things sorted out. I do not see
him as flawed with inaction. I see him more as a man torn
by conflicting ideas. He needs to get those settled in his
own mind before he makes his move.
He is determined to kill Claudius, but refuses to do so
when he thinks Claudius is at prayer. Hamlet wants C. to
go to hell, not Heaven, and refuses to make a martyr of
him. He wants the perfect revenge, with all the
philosophical edges neatly cut.
I thought Hamlet's one liners were quite clever, and that
he was enjoying himself with his puns and double
meanings. That was an act of sanity, and gave him a
tenuous sense of control.
It was interesting how readily others accepted his
madness. Their personal agendas needed Hamlet to be a
bit crazy, and few attempted to look past his behavior.
Claudius was on to him, though he used Hamlet's
supposed madness as an excuse to send him off to
England.
I have seen this play several times, and each time, I see
something new.
Janet - isn't this playing sometime in the spring at the
Alabama Shakespeare Festival?! Count me in.
K
Topic:
November: Hamlet (52 of 59), Read 21 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 11:39 AM
I think that Ophelia really does go mad but not because
she was rejected by Hamlet. Both Laertes and Polonius
warned her about this so it could not have come as a
surprise. Indeed, she is following her father's advice and
she is breaking off with Hamlet by returning his letters
The imperative "get thee to a nunnery" was not
necessarily an angry thing to say to a woman, either in
Shakespeare's time or in Hamlet's (1050). There were
only two options available for most women: marriage or
religious orders. So, Hamlet could merely be giving her
advice to avoid marriage.
Besides what really upsets Ophelia is Hamlet's
"madness." Which he fakes well enough to convince her.
She interjects:
O, help him, you sweet heavens!
O heavenly powers, restore him!
O, what a noble mind is here o'erthrown!
She is, however, very devoted to her father. I think that
the unexpected death of Polonius drives her mad.
Nevertheless, Hamlet feels responsible.
I agree, Kay, Hamlet is definitely faking madness as he
says at the end of Act I, scene v:
How strange or odd soe'er I bear myself,
As I perchance hereafter shall think meet
To put an antic disposition on,
to give himself time to sort things out:
The time is out of joint: O cursed spite,
That ever I was born to set it right!
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (53 of 59), Read 25 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 11:44 AM
The imperative "get thee to a nunnery" was not necessarily
an angry thing to say to a woman, either in Shakespeare's
time or in Hamlet's (1050).
This was a double-entendre..a nunnery in Shakespeare's
time, besides being a convent, was also a 'slang' term for
a house of prostitution.
Beej
Topic:
November: Hamlet (54 of 59), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 12:15 PM
Yes, Beej, thanks for the reminder. I was so concerned
about our modern interpretation that I had forgotten
about that.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (55 of 59), Read 22 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 12:45 PM
Trust me, Dean. You can easily run circles around me on
this stuff. This nunnery business stays vividly in my
memory only because my introduction to Shakespeare
came from the nuns who taught in my Catholic high
school. As a 15 year old with an overactive imagination, it
allowed me many, many hours of fantasizing about what
exactly might be going on at that convent next door to my
school.
Beej
Topic:
November: Hamlet (56 of 59), Read 15 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Janet Mego vsjego@cs.com
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 03:10 PM
This has been, as I knew it would be, a fascinating
discussion. Kay, I think your summation is an insightful
one, cutting to the heart of things succinctly. Robt, the
parallels with the ever-present, ever-haunting terrorism in
the U.S. and the upset Danish kingdom are apt ones. I
myself have felt "madness" perhaps reminiscent of
Hamlet's own--just when I feel that the center does not
hold (oh, why not throw in a little Yeats here--it fits with
the Elizabethan concept of the "Chain of Being"--that the
rightness of structure in the universe was subject to
being thrown out of whack by an act of evil magnitude)--I
feel sanity creeping back in, and I can tell myself, get your
s**t together and do what it takes to make your world
better.
I think Hamlet does this, too, off and on throughout the
play. Making his world better means avenging his father's
death, an act he's sworn to and for which he's put all
trivial matters aside (everything else). But he's NOT an
"action hero," which is not to say he's "fatally flawed"
with inaction. Interesting that after Mel's version of the
play came out one of the few things negative critics could
think of to say was "Hamlet, ostensibly a man of inaction,
played by an action hero? Ridiculous!" Pretty lame, IMO.
To reduce Hamlet to a man of inaction is to applaud any
knee-jerk reaction involving someone's death as its result
taken without thought and planning. I suppose it could be
argued that Polonius's death is exactly that.
However, here is a very complex character filled with
paradox. He takes lots of actions, yet none, until the
death of Claudius in Act V, are the "right" ones. He is
extremely intelligent and sensitive, yet at times, and I
think that the moment he stabs Polonius is one of them,
very close to actual madness, if not over the edge. He
fluctuates, perhaps, between absolute sanity, or the idea
that everything must be thought through completely, and
absolute madness, the idea that nothing must be. I think
it is the tension between these extremes that makes him
truly, truly tragic.
His "madness" and Ophelia's are foils, though, and I think
that Shakespeare intends her as a symbol of
quintessential madness in her final scenes, another
sensitive, intelligent character whose father has been
murdered, but with a completely different effect than that
of a father's murder on Hamlet.
There are so many fascinating questions left unanswered
by the Bard in this play that I think he must have had
more fun imagining what thinking people would make of it
than with any other one. Maybe that's what makes it his
"best."
On the other hand, he could be on some other plane,
reading this over my shoulder, chuckling, and muttering,
"she thinks too much! Such (wo)men are dangerous! Look
what happened to Cassius, and to Hamlet, for that
matter!"
Janet
Topic:
November: Hamlet (57 of 59), Read 11 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 06:24 PM
The death of Polonius is the turning point in the play
when Hamlet sees the futility of all the calculated planning
and decides that all that is needed is readiness.
Hamlet is a man of impulsive action who is faced with the
challenge of controlling himself. But he cannot help but
act. His first impulsive act is to wear black to the wedding.
This certainly must have been a factor influencing Claudius
to refuse Hamlet’s request to leave Elsinore. Claudius
could not ignore the possible threat and defiance which
this act could represent especially as it came when
Denmark is under the cloud of impending war.
Horatio tells us that Denmark is preparing for war
because young Fortinbras is raising an army to regain the
land which his father had lost in single combat with
Hamlet Sr. It is interesting to note that the play begins
and ends with single combat.
I had previously said that Claudius was preparing for war
but I have reconsidered. I think that it was more likely
Hamlet Sr., as George said, the warrior-king, who was
preparing for war. But now Claudius is king. His first act as
king is to send ambassadors to Norway with instructions
that they are not to deviate from what Claudius himself
has written. As it turns out, Claudius’s diplomacy is
successful. It is entirely possible that Claudius killed
Hamlet Sr. to take the throne in a bid to avoid war with
Norway.
Claudius is very much ingratiated to Polonius. I can see
Polonius working to secure the approval of the electors
and securing popular support for Claudius’s ascension to
the throne. (Later, Laertes would quickly turn public
opinion against Claudius.) My opinion of Polonius is such
that I can easily imagine him supplying the poison. (I think
that Gertrude was ignorant of the murder. When Hamlet
confronts her with it her surprised and puzzled reaction
dissuades him from pressing the point.)
Enter Hamlet, obviously not happy about the marriage
which I presume was also the coronation. Hamlet is angry
about how quickly it happened but he doesn't consider
that the threat to Denmark required that a new king be
crowned post-haste. Hamlet unconcerned about the
well-being of Denmark, pursues his goals without
consideration of anything else.
In the end, Hamlet’s actions bring about the destruction
of the entire Danish royal house and all of Denmark is lost
to Norway as Fortinbras becomes the elected king.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (58 of 59), Read 6 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 07:58 PM
Theatrics abound. First of all it is a play; then the play
within a play (THE MURDER OF GONZAGO complete with a
crafty adaptation) mirrors the play HAMLET. This, in turn,
awakens our awareness that HAMLET, the play we're
viewing (or reading) mirrors our life, too, our own
personal and collective drama (in which we are beset by
terrorists,) thereby extending the experience to be a play
within a play within a play. And is God watching this
scenario that He has authored? That would add another
reflection into this hall of mirrors, and onward it goes into
infinity.
Shakespeare offers other ruminations on theatricality
throughout the play and I am a lazy s. o. b. not to quote
these passages in the same thoughtful manner that
George and Dean have in order to illustrate their points. I
recall Hamlet discussing theatrics with Rosencrantz and
Guildenstern and the traveling players. Also, Hamlet is
quite the actor himself, acting mad. Actually, many
characters are acting: Claudius is acting like he is
mourning his brother's accidental death; Rosencrantz and
Guildenstern are acting like their friendship to Hamlet
goes deeper than their employment to the King; Ophelia
acts like she doesn't want to see or speak to Hamlet;
Polonius acts like he is Hamlet's trusted old friend; the
court acts like nothing is wrong; and as the play
progresses the performances of various characters
escalate in their departure from reality. Any character who
is not acting stands out: Horatio, the ghost and Hamlet in
his introspection come to mind. They are ballasts against
the artifice.
And so, I find myself saying the lines out loud, as MAP
recommended, echoing them while watching video
versions, my thespian tendencies aroused, seduced by
the gorgeous language, playing along with the others.
Robt
Topic:
November: Hamlet (59 of 59), Read 6 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Monday, November 05, 2001 08:36 PM
Ah those thespian tendencies. Gotta watch those, Robt.
Speak the speech I pray you, as I pronounced it to you,
trippingly upon the tongue. For if you mouth it, as many of
our players do, I had as lief the town-crier spoke my lines...
I think I can still do it all.
Ruth,with fond memories of her college dramatics days
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm
singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
November: Hamlet (60 of 81), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:46 AM
There's so much to chew on here, particularly regarding
the roles played by each character.
I think Ophelia was driven to distraction by her father's
accidental death and Hamlet's supposed madness. She
allows herself to play the role of a fragile woman and
uses that as an excuse for her passive aggressive
behavior.
I think it was all too much for her, and she opted to
drown herself. She was not mad, but she was depressed.
The court believes she knew exactly what she was doing,
and shouldn't be buried in hallowed soil. Did Shakespeare
add that burial scene to verify she was cognizant when
she drowned herself?
Dean-
I have no doubt that Claudius is as crafty as they come.
However, I do not think his murder of his brother had any
motive other than ascension to the throne, with Gertrude
as his queen. His subsequent determination to rid the
court of Hamlet, the true heir, speaks to Claudius' selfish
ends.
Hamlet made a declaration of war when he wore black to
the coronation/wedding. I wonder why the throne
wouldn't have gone automatically to Hamlet. Isn't that the
natural succession?
And if so, why wasn't the court protesting, not to mention
Hamlet? One would think Gertrude would be asking
questions if she were totally innocent of the king's death.
Surely she's not that much of a ninny. I believe she did
not know what was planned. I must be missing
something here.
K
Topic:
November: Hamlet (61 of 81), Read 37 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:52 AM
It's safe to assume that Hamlet was away in Wittenberg
when his father died and therefore could not immediately
take his place on the throne. The threat of war from
Norway meant that a new king had to be found in a hurry
so they elected Claudius. Claudius mentions this in his
opening speech
"...nor have we herein barr'd
Your better wisdoms, which have freely gone
With this affair along."
They went along with the idea and I think that Claudius
and Polonius did the convincing. Marrying Gertrude could
actually have helped him secure the crown. Gertrude
would have gone along with Claudius rather than
supporting Hamlet's claim because that would mean that
she would remain queen. Which raises the question, do
Claudius and Gertrude love each other or is it a marriage
of convenience?
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (62 of 81), Read 42 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:21 PM
It would be a shame not to mention here quite possibly
the most impressive literary site on the net since it relates
to the subject at hand:
http://shakespeare.palomar.edu/
Which gives one access to essays on Shakespeare by
Hazlitt, Coleridge, Pater, and many many others.
Robert--
I thought your post on Hamlet's theatricality and artifice
wonderful; it makes me curious if Dostoevsky stole his 'lie
your way to the truth' principle directly from Hamlet
Kay--
I'm obviously constrained from commenting on the
'missing something' you're asking about, but I suppose I
can mention a note from the scholar Harold Jenkins in his
outstanding Arden edition of Hamlet:
'The succession by a king's brother rather than his son
was permitted by the system of an elective monarchy,
which Denmark in fact had. The succession of a brother is
paralleled within the play in Norway. Dover Wilson's
argument that Claudius is a usurper is refuted by
Honigmann and Stabler, who show that ambiguity on that
point is inherited from the source material. I do not think,
with Stabler, that uncertainty about Hamlet's rights can
have designed as part of his plight; nor that the first
scenes create a mystery about the succession. It is clear
that Claudius became king with full public consent, and
the king publicly nominates Hamlet as his successor.'
Topic:
November: Hamlet (63 of 81), Read 46 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 01:07 PM
One piece of advice that Machiavelli gave in The Prince
was that the prince could feel free to murder a father with
impunity so long as he did not deny the son his
patrimony. If the prince both murdered the father AND
denied the son his patrimony, then the son would seek
revenge. Otherwise, not.
That kind of thing creates a temptation to view Hamlet as
a Machiavellian fable. However, I do not view Hamlet as a
Machiavellian figure at all. Putting it simply, even if the
murder had resulted in his becoming king, I cannot
imagine his acceptance of that situation.
Further, the Machiavellian prince is a person of action,
quick and clean. Hamlet is a man of thought--so much so
that any impetus toward action is deflected by thought.
We are assured several times that the general population
adored Prince Hamlet. Therefore, I am convinced that he
could have killed Claudius, announced the reason for that,
and ascended the throne with no problem. That would
have been Machiavellian. Throughout this play, I find
myself saying, "Oh, for God's sake, do it or forget about
it!" Did not his obsessive, endless thought about this
dilemma in the end result in far more destruction than the
other course of action would have?
The real catch here is his mother. How to handle her? I
am fascinated with the relationship between Hamlet and
his mother. That scene when he confronts her in her
bedroom is fantastic! This is Freudian stuff three centuries
before Freud. More about that later lest this note get out
of hand.
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (64 of 81), Read 44 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 01:41 PM
Steve--
'However, I do not view Hamlet as a Machiavellian figure
at all. Putting it simply, even if the murder had resulted in
his becoming king, I cannot imagine his acceptance of that
situation.'
Couldn't agree more.
'Further, the Machiavellian prince is a person of action,
quick and clean. Hamlet is a man of thought--so much so
that any impetus toward action is deflected by thought.'
Not entirely true-- Hamlet does kill Polonius
spontaneously, hoist R&G with their own petards without
a second thought, go off with a possibly lethal apparition
(his father's) without hesitation, etc., He is also,
apparently, the quickest and best swordfighter on the
planet. Action isn't so much the problem as action in this
particular circumstance.
There are several instances in S's plays of great people
who are rendered impotent by the mere presence of
certain other individuals: Antony is a great warrior, except
when he's near Caesar:
'Soothsayer:
Therefore, O Antony, stay not by his side:
Thy demon, that's thy spirit which keeps thee, is
Noble, courageous high, unmatchable,
Where Caesar's is not; but, near him, thy angel
Becomes a fear, as being o'erpower'd: therefore
Make space enough between you.'
In 'Julius Caesar' Brutus is noble except when thinking
about his 'evil spirit', Julius.
I would venture a guess that Hamlet, though thoughtful,
being also naturally spontaneous, quick, brave, and very
funny, finds his true self eclipsed somewhat when dealing
with issues that stem from his intimidating father- a father
rendered positively frightening by his transformation into
a ghoul that trembles at the morning cries of roosters.
What the hell is Hamlet supposed to make of this? His
ultra-direct, invincible father now plays tag in the night
with warriors:
'
MARCELLUS:
Shall I strike at it with my partisan?
HORATIO:
Do, if it will not stand.
BERNARDO:
'Tis here!
HORATIO:
'Tis here!
MARCELLUS:
'Tis gone!'
How sad. It's enough to shred the mind of any loving but
ambivalent son.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (65 of 81), Read 39 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 02:00 PM
Thanks for the link, George.
Hamlet has two concerns with the King’s promise of
succession. One, he thinks that the promise is empty air:
Act III, scene ii before the play begins
KING CLAUDIUS
How fares our cousin Hamlet?
HAMLET
Excellent, i' faith; of the chameleon's dish: I eat
the air, promise-crammed: you cannot feed capons so.
Chameleons were believed to live on air because they eat
so rarely and quickly that no one had actually observed
one eating.
Two, Hamlet must wait for the crown
Act III, scene ii after the play
ROSENCRANTZ
Good my lord, what is your cause of distemper? you
do, surely, bar the door upon your own liberty, if
you deny your griefs to your friend.
HAMLET
Sir, I lack advancement.
ROSENCRANTZ
How can that be, when you have the voice of the king
himself for your succession in Denmark?
HAMLET
Ay, but sir, 'While the grass grows,'--the proverb
is something musty.
The proverb is “While the grass grows the horses go
hungry.” On the other hand Fortinbras may be more
content to wait for the crown as his uncle is “impotent
and bed-rid.”
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (66 of 81), Read 41 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 03:26 PM
Ann, In some instances the modern version of Hamlet is
hysterically funny.. here's a short example, and right from
the beginning with Act one, Scene one:
(original text):
Francisco: You come most carefully upon the hour.
Barnardo: 'Tis now struck twelve. Get thee to bed,
Franciso.
Francisco: For this relief much thanks. 'Tis bitter cold, and
I am sick at heart.
(modern version):
Francisco: You're on the dot.
Barnardo: It's turned twelve. Off to bed, Francisco.
Francisco: Many thanks for coming. It's bitterly cold. I'm
fed up.
Sure loses a lot with the modern translation, doesn't it?
Beej
Topic:
November: Hamlet (67 of 81), Read 43 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 03:50 PM
An elected monarchy, huh? Interesting.
Thanks to all who provided a courteous response.
K
Topic:
November: Hamlet (68 of 81), Read 37 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 05:39 PM
Beej,
That is priceless. Now I wonder what they did with the
"To be or not to be" speech.
This reminds me a bit of reading some of the modern
translations of the Bible and comparing them to the old
King James version.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (69 of 81), Read 38 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 05:53 PM
With his last breath, Hamlet supports the election of
Fortinbras as king:
But I do prophesy the election lights
On Fortinbras: he has my dying voice;
And so Fortinbras, which means strong in arm, regains his
father's losses and more without ever having raised his
arm against Denmark.
Fortinbras shows that he is honourable when, according
to the terms of the agreement with Claudius, he moves
his troops peacefully through Denmark to attack Poland.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (70 of 81), Read 42 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 06:56 PM
Ann, for you..anything.
Hamlet's Soliloquy; modern version:
'To live or not to live. That is the issue. Is it more noble to
endure the blows of fickle fortune, or to fight against
overwhelming odds and overcome them? To die is to
sleep: nothing more. And if- by sleep- we could end the
heartaches and the thousand everyday anxieties that
humans suffer, it would be an outcome to be cordially
welcomed. To die...to sleep...to sleep and perhaps to
dream...Yes, there's the catch! Those dreams that we
might have during that sleep of death- after we've cast
off the hurly-burly of mortal life- must make us hesitate.
That's what makes us tolerate suffering so long. Who
would bear the torments of the world we live in- the
tyrant's injustice, the arrogant man's rudeness, the pangs
of unrequited love, the slow process of law, the insolence
of persons in authority, and the insults that the humble
suffer- when he could settle everything himself with a
mere dagger? Who would be a beast of burden, grunting
and sweating with fatigue, if it were not that the dread of
something after death- the unexplored country from
whose territory no traveler returns- makes us ambivalent
and makes us choose to bear the troubles that we have,
rather than fly to others that we know nothing about.
That's why our intelligence makes us all cowards, and
why our determination- normally so healthy looking- takes
on a sickly pallor through thinking too much about precise
details. This process causes ventures of the highest
importance to go astray and lose their impetus.
But hush! The beautiful Ophelia! Young lady: remember all
my sins in your prayers.'
Beautiful.
Beej
Topic:
November: Hamlet (71 of 81), Read 25 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 07, 2001 07:45 PM
One of the marvelous things about Shakespeare is that
his stage direction is sparse, thus leaving so much open
to interpretation. Witness, for example, the many ways
actors have played Hamlet. The variations are endless.
Here's my take on something mentioned:
As noted, Hamlet has been summoned home from school
upon the death of his father. How long after the death did
the word get to him? Perhaps 2-3 weeks? Add another 2
weeks for him to get home, and when he arrives there's a
coronation. I believe Gertrude & Claudius may already be
married. But in any event, Hamlet is still in mourning. Of
course he wears black, not as an act of treason, but
because he is in mourning. At this point Hamlet has not
seen the ghost. Hamlet doesn't get fired up until he
himself sees the ghost.
Also, Hamlet has spent all these years with his studies.
He apparently has shown no interest in assisting his
father in ruling or waging battle. This leads me to believe
that Hamlet had been ambivalent about his own right to
the throne, and thus Claudius was free to jump into the
breech.
MAP
Topic:
November: Hamlet (72 of 81), Read 29 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Thursday, November 08, 2001 03:17 AM
Hamlet's appearance in black at the coronation/wedding
could be interpreted as nothing more than grief which is
what Claudius and Gertrude say they do. However, there
is an ambiguity: how much of Hamlet's choice of attire
depends on legitimate feelings of grief or treasonous
anger at losing the crown.
Then we see that Hamlet dislikes Claudius. It is Claudius
who decides that he should remain at Elsinore but Hamlet
says that he will obey his mother.
Hamlet in his first soliloquy says that his father has been
dead for less than 2 months. He says that Claudius isn't
as good as his father and that the wedding happened
quickly. If Claudius isn't good enough to take Hamlet Sr.'s
place who is? Why is he so upset that the wedding
happened so quickly?
Then he says:
But break, my heart; for I must hold my tongue.
If he were to express any of these thoughts they could
be taken as treason and would put him in danger.
Because we are not directly threatened by Hamlet's
ambitions we can afford to give him the benefit of the
doubt but Claudius cannot. It is interesting that he cannot
yet express his desire for the crown even in soliloquy. It is
kept from everyone, even us, until after we have all seen
the king's reaction to the play.
Hamlet has to be careful about what he says. When he is
speaking to Rosencrantz and Gildenstern, they try to get
Hamlet to speak of his ambition in a heavy-handed way.
Hamlet suspects that they are working for the king and
presses them to admit it.
Later, knowing that Claudius and Polonius are listening,
he, under the thin veil of madness, tells Ophelia "...I am
very
proud, revengeful, ambitious, ..."
After the play, having secured Horatio and us as impartial
witnesses to the guilty reaction of the king, Hamlet is able
to speak more openly:
ROSENCRANTZ
Good my lord, what is your cause of distemper? you
do, surely, bar the door upon your own liberty, if
you deny your griefs to your friend.
HAMLET
Sir, I lack advancement.
ROSENCRANTZ
How can that be, when you have the voice of the king
himself for your succession in Denmark?
HAMLET
Ay, but sir, 'While the grass grows,'--the proverb
is something musty.
A little later, when he is with his mother, Hamlet is even
more direct when he says that Claudius stole the crown
from him:
[Claudius is] A murderer and a villain;
A slave that is not twentieth part the tithe
Of your precedent lord; a vice of kings;
A cutpurse of the empire and the rule,
That from a shelf the precious diadem stole,
And put it in his pocket!
On his return after sailing for England he tells Horatio the
list Claudius's crimes, in obvious order of importance:
Act V, scene ii, 64-66
He that hath kill'd my king and whored my mother,
Popp'd in between the election and my hopes,
Thrown out his angle for my proper life,...
And finally, Hamlet's dying words concern the election.
Although he could not say so at the beginning of the play,
even to us, by the end he has made it clear that he
wanted the crown.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (73 of 81), Read 29 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Pres Lancaster plancast@neteze.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:48 PM
"Unless the viewer of 'Hamlet' can believe that Hamlet
was born and will die, unless the viewer's imagination is
carried offstage into the life for which there is no direct
evidence onstage, the play dies with the protagonist. A
character understood to have no life offstage can have no
life onstage."
From "God: A Biography", by Jack Miles, quoted in GOD,
INTERRUPTED, a review by James Wood of Miles' recent
book CHRIST, A CRISIS IN THE LIFE OF GOD. The review
appears in the New Yorker magazine of 11/12/01.
pres, who finds it difficult to disagree but doesn't consider
the matter settled.
"I just kind of conjured them up out of my subconscious
and put them in order of ascending peculiarity." EDWARD
GOREY
Topic:
November: Hamlet (74 of 81), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Thursday, November 08, 2001 02:31 AM
Ophelia is warned that Prince Hamlet is using her and is
not serious about her- Hamlet toys with her and
bombards her with innuendos. Polonius believes (and
bets his head) that Hamlet is mad with love for his
daughter- Hamlet directs numerous obscure references at
him that relate primarily to Ophelia. Gertrude fears that
Hamlet is 'mad' (angry with her/insane...double meaning)-
Hamlet alternately raves at her and berates her. R&G
expect to find ambition at the heart of Hamlet's rage-
Hamlet tells them he lacks advancement. Claudius, with
his criminal conscience, worries that Hamlet suspects him-
Hamlet puts on a play that re-enacts his crime. With
everyone in the play but Horatio, Hamlet seems to speak
(with supercharged brilliance) right into the category they
were putting him anyway.
He knows what everyone expects to see and hear
because he is the ultimate student of human nature and
literature's most intelligent character. His ghostly father
puts Hamlet on a collision course with death right from
the beginning. Shakespeare's insight here is crucial: Kings
are already dead, at least as human beings. Their life is
taken from them by cares of State. So Hamlet can avenge
his father and be executed for murder, or he can succeed,
become king, and live out his life in thrall to the throne,
surrounded by hollow hangers-on and an unfaithful
mother. Either way, this student-at-heart must surrender
his freedom to learn, to play, to have an individual life.
Hamlet, in 'Hamlet', is actually killed in Act I Scene 1 in my
opinion. There are two Hamlets in the play, and both of
them are the walking dead. But being the student he is,
he must stall and improvise to buy time with which to
study death. And study life. He goes on a whirlwind tour
of the minds that are left around him, grasping each of
them to their essence, then letting go. Plays, as
Shakespeare well knew, have all the semblances of life
without actually being ALIVE. Hamlet himself is a living
and dying play... which is Shakespeare's unsurpassable
achievement. Hamlet turns overtly to us at the end with
this: 'I am dead, Horatio. Wretched queen, adieu! You
that look pale and tremble at this chance, That are but
mutes or audience to this act, Had I but time--as this fell
sergeant, death, Is strict in his arrest--O, I could tell you--
But let it be. Horatio, I am dead...' Hamlet comes to
recognize his living death, but also his role as the Player
Prince, and talks to the 'audience'. He could tell us what
he's learned in his study of death, but it is beyond words.
He also recognizes the similarity of his condition to the
ghost of his father that fled in the beginning at cock crow,
subtly compared when he says 'The potent poison quite
o'er-crows my spirit'. Shakespeare, incessant punner, may
even be giving double meanings this late in the game
with 'the rest is silence'; the rest (relaxation) comes to
the character Hamlet with silence (the end of speech). If
any man knew 'aught of what he leaves', it was
Shakespeare, working through the relentless mind and
voice of his Hamlet.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (75 of 81), Read 21 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Thursday, November 08, 2001 02:08 PM
Very interesting notes, all.
Beej, thanks for posting the "modern" translation of the
To Be or Not To Be speech. That really is not bad. The
poetry is missing, of course, but it did clarify a few
expressions I didn't understand.
Earlier Kay said she had problems understanding Ophelia.
I concur. Emotionally, she strikes me as a ninny. Rationally
I can understand that she must have been very young
and completely dependent on her male relatives. As
George said, she had been warned that Hamlet was only
toying with her. He was, after all, heir to the throne and
probably destined for a political marriage to someone else
of royal blood. In those days, if a girl lost her "virtue," she
lost all. Therefore I can understand why she felt
compelled to cut Hamlet off completely. I can also
understand why her father's death was such a total blow
to her. Be that as it may, I have trouble emotionally
identifying with her, probably because she is so passive --
something very far from my own personality.
I can understand Hamlet's resentment that Claudius had
usurped the throne, but I question the extent of his own
political ambitions. I believe he had a kind of "I don't
really want it just yet, but it isn't fair that you've got it"
attitude. If being king were his goal, wouldn't there be
scenes in the play showing Hamlet conspiring with his
friends and the soldiers to stage a coup?
MAP mentioned the different interpretations of this play.
The performances we have seen certainly influence our
opinions. In the Branagh movie version, Gertrude and
Claudius can't keep their hands off each other. There are
also some bedroom scenes between Hamlet and Olphelia,
which don't strike me as plausible, but which certainly
make Hamlet's anger at Ophelia more understandable.
The addition of overt sex also explains why this version is
quite popular with the younger set.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (76 of 81), Read 17 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Pres Lancaster plancast@neteze.com
Date:
Thursday, November 08, 2001 02:20 PM
"this monstrous Gothic castle of a poem"
quoted by James Agate in his review of Gielgud's 1944
Hamlet. I have not been able to trace the source but,
then, I haven't gone any farther than the Oxford
Dictionary of Quotations.
Kenneth Tynan, HE THAT PLAYS THE KING, 1950, of a
1944/45 Gielgud performance:
"When I saw this Hamlet, Leslie Banks had been replaced
as Claudius by Abraham Sofaer, who with the Jewish
actor's gift for appearing to be a dignified but slightly
pathetic intruder, managed to capture an altogether
remarkable slice of the audience's sympathy, and so
restored the balance of a play too often obscured by the
eclipsing charm of its hero."
W. H. Auden: "I would question whether anyone has
succeeded in playing Hamlet without appearing
ridiculous."
pres
"I just kind of conjured them up out of my subconscious
and put them in order of ascending peculiarity." EDWARD
GOREY
Topic:
November: Hamlet (77 of 81), Read 20 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Thursday, November 08, 2001 02:39 PM
Asimov indicates that in Shakespeare's time, the line of
succession to the throne often went to a brother of the
king in lieu of an absent or youthful son. But also known
by Elizabethan audiences was the notion of the "wicked
uncle", similar to the "wicked step-mother". Had Hamlet
been in Elsinore when his father died, he might have
taken over the throne. Was it Woody Allen who said that
being there is 9/10ths of success?
Here's another take on the story: In Updike's prequel
Gertrude & Claudius, that duo had long been having an
affair behind the King's back. Polonius knows this and is
complicit. Updike stops short of saying Gertrude was in on
the assassination, but she's not altogether unhappy
either. It's an interesting theory, and it does explain why
Hamlet is so rude to Polonius.
MAP
Topic:
November: Hamlet (78 of 81), Read 20 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, November 08, 2001 04:22 PM
In concert with the asides about various performances of
this play, the best I have ever seen was a filmed 1964
stage production starring Richard Burton. John Gielgud
directed. Hume Cronyn played Polonius.
This was done on a minimalist set with minimalist
costumes. Burton wore a black pullover and black slacks,
for example.
One would have to buy this to see it. It's hard to find. Can
longer get it on tape. It is out on DVD, however.
Now, as I was saying about the central character,
Gertrude. . . .
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (79 of 81), Read 20 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Thursday, November 08, 2001 08:35 PM
Steve,
I saw the Burton version when I was in high school, but I
can't remember what his take was on Hamlet. Can you
refresh my memory?
I've been listening to a lecture by Peter Saccio on Hamlet
from the Great Courses on Tapes series. (I have a friend
who buys these tapes, which are basically college
lectures, and then lets me borrow them). Saccio had some
interesting comments on Gertrude. He said the part was
"underwritten" because it leaves so many questions
about her unanswered. Was she in love with Claudius?
Had they committed adultery while Hamlet senior was still
alive? Was she in on the murder of her husband?
He commented that the part of Gertrude was really suited
more to a movie actress than a stage actress because
the camera could zero in on the actress's facial
expressions. The expressions could reveal so much more
than the actual dialogue. He particularly complimented
Julie Christie's performance in the Branagh version.
He also mentioned Lawrence Olivier's version of Hamlet,
which was based on Hamlet's supposed Oedipus complex.
In this version, Gertrude was lovely and even younger
than Olivier. Hamlet lusted after her. It's hard for me to
see how the text could support that interpretation, but
then I've never seen the video.
As for Hamlet himself, Saccio emphasizes his youth. He
teaches at Dartmouth and says that it is easy to
recognize Hamlet's quickly changing emotions in many
college students. From the information provided here on
CR, it sounds like Hamlet was around 30 -- which doesn't
seem that young to me, even at my advanced age.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (80 of 81), Read 19 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf dan1066@yahoo.com
Date:
Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:39 PM
In concert with Robert's take on the self-reflexive nature
of this play, one of my favorite lines is Hamlet's response
to the query as to what he's reading: "Words. Words.
Words."
The play opens with the most enigmatic query: "Who's
there?" The characters are in the dark, but isn't the
playwright addressing the audience as well? Add to that,
as Robert noted, the mousetrap play and this work
messes in the gray area between subjective opinion and
objective text.
Which of us, reading this play, can answer anything as
clearly and concisely as Hamlet as to what's being read?
This play is just a series of words--but, as is made clear
by the "modern translation"--Shakespeare was a
word-smith par excellance and there is a method to its
madness.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
November: Hamlet (81 of 81), Read 14 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Kay Dugan okaychatt@yahoo.com
Date:
Friday, November 09, 2001 08:33 AM
"this work messes in the gray area between subjective
opinion and objective text."
Dan-
I like that. The possibilities for interpretation abound, and
I enjoy playing with the different options through
respectful discussion.
When I read the play, I tend to dig deeper than when I
am experiencing it in the theater. Though my mind is
actively noting differences in direction and interpretation
when I'm in the audience, I inevitably get caught up
emotionally and leave the performance emotionally
drained. Part of that enjoyment is from being immersed in
the spoken poetry of Shakespeare. The rest comes from
the outright, downright drama of the tragedy.
K
Topic:
November: Hamlet (82 of 117), Read 60 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Saturday, November 10, 2001 12:16 PM
The primary benefit of discussing Act III, scene 4 would be
drawing Steve out on the subject of Gertrude, but I also
find it one of the most puzzling scenes in the play.
Hamlet kills Polonius behind the curtain, saying that he
thinks perhaps it is the king. I find that odd, considering
he has just left the king at prayer and he hears Polonius's
(admittedly muffled) voice before he strikes. Maybe he
really doesn't know who is behind there, or maybe he's
saying that to give Gertrude the impression that he is in
fact ready and willing to slay Claudius. I can't tell.
Hamlet's absolute disgust for both Claudius and the
queen's relationship with him is clear:
Lay not that mattering unction to your soul,
That not your trespass, but my madness speaks:
It will but skin and film the ulcerous place,
Whilst rank corruption, mining all within,
Infects unseen.
Also clear is that Hamlet's 'feigned' madness is hugging
the curve of the real thing, as the image of his father
reappears:
Ghost:
Do not forget: this visitation
Is but to whet thy almost blunted purpose.
Whatever Hamlet's motivations are, they have been
blunted by his conflicting emotions. I am very suspicious
here of Gertrude's doublespeak- she claims her heart is
cleft in twain by Hamlet's accusations, then marches to
the next scene to rejoin Claudius. I think Shakespeare
made this scene this way to show us Hamlet's first
misjudgement of character in the play- he has wasted his
words for the first time. He has not turned Gertrude
against Claudius, she has not gone mad with guilt a la
Ophelia. If Hamlet can misjudge his mother he can
misjudge his father... an interesting development. Hamlet
makes his father sound like a 'complete man', smart and
strong, all virtue and no vice. Was he? And if he was, why
was Hamlet avoiding his footsteps prior to the play's
beginning? The ghost's first appearance was witnessed
by all present- here only Hamlet sees him. Is ghost 2.0
actually there? This time the ghost is dressed in ordinary
clothes, as Hamlet was used to seeing him. Is he the
coinage of an ashamed Hamlet's brain? This question is
left brilliantly unanswered by Shakespeare.
Speculating at a point: Hamlet is critical of everyone
(including himself) in the play but his father. He is cursed
with the ability to see behind things, he knows not
'seems'. With his father, Hamlet lets be. It is relaxing to
his mind and spirit to have at least one thing in his life
that he doesn't remorselessly dissect down to the heart
of its mystery. That thing he loses. Worse, the ghost of
his father becomes yet another thing to be suspicious of.
But there is one and only one other transparently obvious
thing in the play that Hamlet refuses to examine closely...
the trap laid for him at the end. He built his world view
around one act of faith (belief in his father) set like a
jewel in an ocean of skepticism. I'd venture that this
precious faith is the reason Hamlet avoided the court, to
avoid seeing through Hamlet Sr. That brought him a
measure of peace. Through the odyssey of the play,
Hamlet learns again to let be and not look behind the
obvious doom awaiting him. Once again, looking away,
though painful at first, brings him peace at the end.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (83 of 117), Read 59 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Saturday, November 10, 2001 02:56 PM
George, you were quite right earlier to point out to me
that Hamlet certainly is capable of being a man of action.
This simply emphasizes my real question though. Why the
long delay here by Hamlet? He continually berates himself
about not getting on with the revenge. He is apologetic
about the delay when the ghost appears in Gertrude's
bedroom. The problem is compounded by the fact that
one can never really take Hamlet at his word regarding
the reasons for this. I can't anyway. Whatever stands in
his way can only be psychological.
The monkey wrench in the situation is that his mother is
married to the perpetrator and is obviously deeply in love
with him and frankly, pretty sexed up by him. Do you
notice--or is it just me?--that both the ghost and Hamlet
seem to be more upset with Claudius bedding down
Gertrude than with Claudius killing Hamlet Senior? When
either of them speak of Claudius's crimes they spend a lot
of time talking about incest, lust, adultery, female frailty,
and on and on.
There may be good reason for Getrude's vulnerability to
Claudius. Claudius is a sensitive, loving husband. Hamlet
Senior strikes me as a cold, stiff, militaristic man who
hates women. I don't think life was so great for Gertrude
with Hamlet Senior, and I don't think we can trust
Hamlet's idealized portrayal of his dead father.
So it seems to me that one of the main reasons for
Hamlet's delay is his quandary of how to deal with his
mother after his revenge if he cannot get her on his side
before he does it. In the end his problem is solved. He
only kills Claudius after it is clear that his mother is dying
AND after she herself realizes Claudius's treachery with
that poisoned cup.
I have an idea about the killing of Polonius.
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (84 of 117), Read 61 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf dan1066@yahoo.com
Date:
Saturday, November 10, 2001 04:01 PM
Steve: I find your take on Hamlet fascinating. I never
noticed that he does seem more upset with the sex than
the poisoning. Hamlet as a momma's boy (in a loose
sense) unable to do anything until he is sure his actions
will be sanctioned by mother.
I never noticed that there are two parents here and that
Hamlet is fond and dutiful to both and not just one. I
admit my reading suffered from this one-sided
perspective. I never considered Gertrude's influence on
Hamlet's actions; only Hamlet's ghostly father's.
Isn't Laertes and Ophelia without a mother in this play? Is
she dead or something? As a foil to Hamlet, Laertes
functions solely on his father's advice and this helps the
tragedy along. Hamlet, while giving ear to the advice of
his father's ghost, waits until the proper moment to avoid
upsetting his mother and in essence delays the inevitable
tragedy.
I admit I haven't thought it through, but this is credible
and thought-provoking material. I really want to hear
Steve's take on Polonius now.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
November: Hamlet (85 of 117), Read 62 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 12:30 AM
Today I finished listening to the BBC audio version of that
scene with Gertrude and Hamlet. Hamlet is played by
Kenneth Branagh and Gertrude by Judy Dench--quite a
pair.
I too was struck by the horror that the sexual relationship
between Claudius and Gertrude produced in Hamlet.
Maybe Olivier's portrayal of Hamlet's Oedipal love for his
mother wasn't so far off base after all. Hamlet seems
particularly appalled by the fact that his mother is
enjoying sex at her advanced age --- what, late 40's or
early 50's?
"You cannot call it love, for at your age
The hey-day in your blood is tame, it's humble,
And waits upon the judgement: and what judgement
Would step from this to this (Hamlet Sr. to Claudius)...
O shame! where is thy blush? Rebellious hell,
If thou canst mutine in a matron's bones,
To flaming youth let virtue be as wax
And melt in her own fire: proclaim no shame
When the compulsive ardour gives the charge,
Since frost itself as actively doth burn,
And reason panders will."
Mummie has obviously stepped out of her customary role
her and Hamlet doesn't like it one little bit.
I think Steve's idea that Hamlet senior wasn't such a
great guy after all has merit. Remember that the
apparition tells Hamlet is suffering because he died
unconfessed. Just what kinds of sins is he paying for?
Derek Jacobi plays Hamlet both in this audio version and
Branagh's movie. It's a wonderful performance and I can
certainly understand Gertrude's attraction to him.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (86 of 117), Read 58 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 07:10 AM
When I lived in Key West, a rowdy town back then, I
attended an evening of scenes from Shakespeare at the
local theater. Two scenes stole the evening. The first was
the scene from RICHARD III where Richard seduces Lady
Anne after murdering her husband. The mood was set
when the actor playing Richard couldn't get his sword all
the way down into the scabbard, so while speaking his
lines he gave a passionate thrust which ripped the sword
through the scabbard halfway down. Then a few minutes
later Lady Anne spun around to face her evil suitor and
the coil of hair on her head loosened from its moorings
and stood out at a right angle on her head. Cheers
erupted and everybody began to enjoy the show,
although the production was intended to present the
tragedies as tragedies and the comedies as comedies.
But the real scene stealer was Hamlet's "To be, or not to
be" soliloquy performed by the same actor who had been
Richard. The lights came up on Hamlet contemplating an
apple as if it were a wholesome Yorick, and after
delivering the line: "That is the question!" he bit into the
apple and started chewing it. The rest of the melodious
speech was projected with a spray of apple bits to the
audience's glee and produced enough laughter to settle
the question once and for all.
Robt
Topic:
November: Hamlet (87 of 117), Read 55 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 02:01 PM
Steve #93
So it seems to me that one of the main reasons for
Hamlet's delay is
his quandary of how to deal with his mother after his
revenge if he
cannot get her on his side before he does it.
By, "get her on his side" do you mean so that she can
support him in his bid for succession?
But doesn't Hamlet berate his mother for having taken
Claudius as a lover after he had struck a blow against the
person whom he thought was the king? Doesn't this shoe
that he is prepared to act regardless of his mother's
feelings?
One of the things which is holding Hamlet back is the
ghost's command to Hamlet:
Act I, scene v, 64-65
But, howsoever thou pursuest this act,
Taint not thy mind,
The Oxford World's Classic (OWC) edition by G.R. Hibbard
gives this explanation:
" 'Take revenge on Claudius, but on no account stoop to
his methods.' He thus presents the hero with the dilemma
that is at the heart of revenge tragedy: how is the nobility
of the successful avenger to be preserved?"
The ghost has good reason to re-appear to Hamlet after
he has killed Polonius because killing a man who is
standing behind an arras is hardly more noble than killing
a man in his sleep. If Hamlet were truly noble would he
have struck at a defenseless man?
Claudius expresses remorse for the murder of his brother
on at least two separate occasions. Hamlet kills five
people and never feels the least regret. Hamlet seems to
me to be very much like Richard III.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (88 of 117), Read 57 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 02:22 PM
Gertrude herself is not any power player or plotter, and
Updike aside, she clearly did not know of Claudius's
murder of her previous husband at the time it occurred.
She simply appears to be an older woman who is deeply
in love and having fun sexually for the first time in her life.
The thing is here, you can't trust anything Hamlet himself
says. Sometimes he is even fooling himself. This is one of
the things that is so fascinating about this play, and the
thing that gives rise to so many different
interpretations--all with evidence to support them. I think
he is fooling himself about his father.
I chose to believe that Hamlet knows perfectly well it is
not the king behind the arras in Gertrude's bedroom after
he runs Polonius through. You might say, "Yes, but he
asks, 'Is it the king?'" And I say in response that he is
manipulating Gertrude with this question. He just left the
king praying elsewhere in the castle, for chrissakes, and
knows perfectly well that the king is not behind the arras
in his mother's bedroom.
I think he probably knew it was Polonius and was ready
to do him in, knowing that P. was working so assiduously
for Claudius. His asking "Is it the king?" is his little way (a
little commercial) of getting Gertrude prepared
psychologically for what he must do in the end.
That's my own explanation for all that, and I didn't steal it
from anybody--the killing of Polonius part anyway. I hope
my mother would be proud.
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (89 of 117), Read 56 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 02:45 PM
Here is the fascinating question for me. How come the
ghost allows himself to be seen by Horatio and the
guards but not Gertrude?
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (90 of 117), Read 53 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 03:38 PM
Steve, it is possible that the King followed Hamlet to his
mother's chambers, after all, they do speak to each other
for a while before the voice is heard from behind the
arras. At any rate, if Hamlet killed Polonius deliberately or
unintentionally the result is the same. Claudius now has
justification to get rid of and even kill Hamlet for the
safety of everyone. The advantage which Hamlet had over
the king due to the mousetrap play is completely lost.
After, the arranged encounter with Ophelia (which is also
a mousetrap play), Claudius had determined that Hamlet
be sent to England. After the death of Polonius, Claudius
arranges for Hamlet's death.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (91 of 117), Read 51 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 04:24 PM
Regarding Polonius' death: Isn't hiding in a Queen's
chamber a dangerous thing to do? What about the
Queen's safety? Someone lurking behind a drapery in a
royal bedroom could be an assassin. Why is Hamlet's
impulse to strike at the curtain so off base? This is where
I question Gertrude's loyalty to Hamlet, because she could
have informed the court that Polonius was eavesdropping
and Hamlet didn't know who was behind the curtain and
persuaded them that Hamlet was acting in her defense.
But somehow public opinion came out against Hamlet
when we had been informed that Hamlet was a popular
Prince, so somehow another story got out. Certainly
Claudius helped malign Hamlet's name, but what about
Getrude? Hamlet was getting to be a lot of trouble to her
at this point. Perhaps she was passive and without an
advocate Hamlet's popularity plummeted.
Robt
Topic:
November: Hamlet (92 of 117), Read 51 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 04:58 PM
Robert,
Gertrude seems to have been convinced that Hamlet was
stark raving mad, which may be why she didn't try to
invent a more rational excuse for his behavior. I think she
was going for the "not guilty by reason of insanity"
approach.
Dean, as you pointed out, Claudius had already
determined that Hamlet would go to England before
Polonius was killed. Do you think he only decided to have
him killed after the killing of Polonius? Hamlet's frequent
ravings about his "incestuous" relationship with Hamlet's
mother made it pretty clear he was no friend of Claudius.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (93 of 117), Read 49 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Felix Miller felix3rd@bellsouth.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 06:31 PM
quote: Here is the fascinating question for me. How come
the ghost allows himself to be seen by Horatio and the
guards but not Gertrude?-Steve
Someone remarked above (it may have been Steve, or
others as well) that Ghost Hamlet seems not an admirer
of women. Perhaps that is why Hamlet particularly is
singled out for the full disclosure.
Horatio and the guards are simply means to get Hamlet to
the parapet. Which begs the question why the parapet,
when Ghost Hamlet communicates with Hamlet minor later
in other places?
I think it is all a matter of focus, Hamlet major and minor
are the driving forces in the play. And Hamlet minor is the
conduit for his father (it is too "new age" to say he
channels his father.)
O the Book/ Of the Dead, and the dead bright sun on the
page/ Where the team stands ready to explode/ In all
directions with Time...
Felix Miller
Topic:
November: Hamlet (94 of 117), Read 56 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 06:39 PM
Steve--
I agree almost entirely with your outstanding notes so
far... keep 'em coming.
With Hamlet though, the complexity of response must
have a complex cause, with disparate or even
contradictory elements. Although you are dead-on about
the Hamlets hatred of Gertrude's, er, sexual second-wind,
I don't think Gertrude is the largest factor dragging on
Hamlet's revenge either. She IS a factor, as you've
inarguably shown.
But the psychological pressures stemming from the father
seem larger to me. Hamlet has shunned the court, the
military, typical princehood. Hamlet Sr. arrives and de
facto asks Hamlet to go to war... a twisted war at that
with no allies and against a king.
We get a glimpse of the domineering, even insulting way
Hamlet Sr approached fatherhood here:
HAMLET:
Haste me to know't, that I, with wings as swift
As meditation or the thoughts of love,
May sweep to my revenge.
Ghost:
I find thee apt;
And duller shouldst thou be than the fat weed
That roots itself in ease on Lethe wharf,
Wouldst thou not stir in this.
In fact, Hamlet's does sweep to revenge meditatively and
with anger co-mingled with love... strange that he
should've predicted the slowness of his response in a
sentence meant to evoke rapid revenge.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (95 of 117), Read 59 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 08:36 PM
... matter of fact, a wild guess came to me about the
Gertrude/2 kings dynamic:
Gertrude is said to live by Hamlet's looks. She does
undoubtedly love and adore him. Strangely though, I
believe Hamlet when he says:
That it should come to this!
But two months dead: nay, not so much, not two:
So excellent a king; that was, to this,
Hyperion to a satyr; so loving to my mother
That he might not beteem the winds of heaven
Visit her face too roughly. Heaven and earth!
Must I remember? why, she would hang on him,
As if increase of appetite had grown
By what it fed on: and yet, within a month--
Let me not think on't--Frailty, thy name is woman!--
A little month, or ere those shoes were old
With which she follow'd my poor father's body,
Like Niobe, all tears:--why she, even she--
So when Hamlet last saw his father and mother together,
they were close and seemingly in love. What changed?
Hamlet left. He reached the age where he should've
become a warrior by his father's side, but he left. If, as I
guessed, he went to Wittenberg to become what his
father was not and keep his perfect memory of his father
intact, then in a weird way it's his father's fault that he
didn't stay. Perhaps Gertrude blamed Hamlet Sr. for
Hamlet's absence. Regardless, Hamlet Sr's death brought
Hamlet home, one assumes to the delight of Gertrude.
Better yet from her perspective, she, at play's start, has a
reknit family unit- a son at her side and a husband who
wouldn't traipse around the world in wars and duels.
Claudius is the new-model leader, winning through
diplomacy and deception, not one-on-one combat. I
believe Gertrude loved Hamlet Sr. when he was THERE...
she's no proto-feminist offended at Hamlet Sr's views of
women, in fact, she probably shared them. She seems
pretty docile.
As for Claudius the loving husband, it is all smoke and
mirrors. He LETS Gertrude drink the poison as he looks
on; when it comes down to it, he chooses the kingdom
over her, just as he chose it over his brotherly bond.
Granted, he is good at appearing good to her, but at his
core he is a political animal with no regard for anything
but himself. He is so in love with himself/deluded that
when he is cut by the poison blade he says this:
HAMLET:
The point!--envenom'd too!
Then, venom, to thy work.
[Stabs KING CLAUDIUS]
All:
Treason! treason!
KING CLAUDIUS:
O, yet defend me, friends; I am but hurt.
Ridiculous. This man is fighting for his crown from beyond
the grave- only he, of all the fatally wounded in the final
scene, fails to come to terms in some manner with death.
His last breath is a pathetic lie.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (96 of 117), Read 59 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 09:09 PM
Doggone it, George, I forgot about that speech by Hamlet
describing a loving relationship between Gertrude and his
father. I shouldn't have because it is a relatively famous
one what with the "frailty, thy name is woman" thing. I
guess I tend to believe it, too.
We're still left with an obviously close relationship
between Gertrude and Claudius. Maybe Gertrude is easy.
In any event, I think we are onto the weighty issues
regarding this play, and these comments by everyone are
all great.
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (97 of 117), Read 56 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 09:57 PM
Claudius does warn Gertrude about the poison:
"Gertrude, do not drink," he says, but it is too late. As
Derek Jacobi played the part, this line was said in
desperation. Others might interpret it differently.
If Claudius didn't love Gertrude, why did he marry her? I
don't think the marriage enhanced his claim to the elected
throne, but it did open him up to criticism. Both Hamlet
senior and junior are incensed by the "incestuous"
marriage of Claudius and Gertrude because traditionally it
was against church law to marry a brother-in-law or
sister-in-law without a special dispensation. This stemmed
from a Biblical prohibition. Henry VIII married his brother's
widow, Catherine of Aragon, after the pope gave him a
dispensation. He later claimed that this was invalid, which
he argued made the marriage to Catherine invalid, thus
clearing the way for him to marry Anne Boleyn. Surely the
Hamlets were not alone in being upset about this aspect
of Claudius and Gertrude's marriage.
BTW, Hamlet Sr. does tell Hamlet not to be too hard on
the little woman:
"But, howsoever thou pursues this act,
Taint not thy mind, nor let thy soul contrive
Against thy mother aught: leave her to heaven,
And to those thorns that in her bosom lodge
To prick and sting her."
And just what were those "foul crimes" that force Hamlet
senior to burn until they are expiated?
I am thy father's spirit;
Doom'd for a certain term to walk the night,
And for the day confined to fast in fires,
Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature
Are burnt and purged away."
The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to
sympathize with those aged lovers. Hamlet Sr. might not
have been missed for good reason.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (98 of 117), Read 56 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 10:15 PM
Ann--
Well, look at it this way- your husband invites his worst
business rival over for dinner planning to poison him. He
puts out a glass of red wine with cyanide in it. You pick it
up unexpectedly and he says 'don't drink that honey, you
don't even like red wine'. You say 'I feel like trying it' and
raise the glass... taking a fatal sip. I ask you, do you
consider your husband's warning sufficient? How much
does he really love you then? Sure, his shouting 'don't
drink BECAUSE IT'S POISONED!' would be embarrassing,
even actionable... but one must choose. Claudius warns
Gertrude insofar as he can publicly, but ultimately chooses
to let her die rather than take some heat himself and
reveal what he truly is. He may, in some convenient way,
love Gertrude... I believe he does. But what did it really
amount to? A king with a queen is stronger than one
without... Claudius simply wants it all, crown, wife,
adoptive (hopefully adoring) son, etc., He is an atrocious
human being in my view.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (99 of 117), Read 56 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 10:37 PM
Bad guy. Yes. I don't think there's any arguing that. Still, I
like the way he discusses problems with Gertrude. I like
the look of their relationship. And I don't remember
Macbeth, for example, showing much guilt or getting down
on his knees and attempting to pray for forgiveness.
On the other hand and as in Macbeth, one killing leads to
another. Claudius comes to realize that its him or Hamlet.
On a somewhat related subject, Hamlet determines that
his best strategy is to feign madness. It appears to me
that as the play wears on, he crosses the line and is in
fact nuts for awhile.
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (100 of 117), Read 54 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:08 PM
Steve,
"It appears to me that as the play wears on, he crosses
the line and is in fact nuts for awhile." I like that. It
explains some of Hamlet's really strange dialog.
But, George, it all depends on how that scene is played! I
grant you that an actor could interpret Claudius's
behavior the way you have. However, that isn't the way I
saw it performed. For better or worse, it has affected my
view of Claudius. After all, he could hardly have yelled to
his wife, "Stop! I'm trying to kill your beloved son, not
you." In any case, once Claudius utters the warning, he
has implicated himself. Gertrude's death immediately
follows her drinking the poison, and it's pretty apparent
why Claudius knows it's tainted.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (101 of 117), Read 55 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:49 PM
It seems odd that the ghost cannot be heard or seen by
Gertrude especially after the ghost beckoned Hamlet
away from the others so that they would not be
overheard.
Although Hamlet at the time of speaking with the ghost is
ready to fly to revenge and he tells Horatio:
Touching this vision here,
It is an honest ghost, that let me tell you:
For your desire to know what is between us,
O'ermaster 't as you may.
Hamlet changes his mind on both these points as he later
says that:
The spirit that I have seen
May be the devil: and the devil hath power
To assume a pleasing shape; yea, and perhaps
Out of my weakness and my melancholy,
As he is very potent with such spirits,
Abuses me to damn me: I'll have grounds
More relative than this: the play 's the thing
Wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king.
In effect, he would catch the conscience of two kings:
Claudius and the spirit in the the image of his father.
Just before the start of the play, Hamlet says to Horatio:
One scene of it comes near the circumstance
Which I have told thee of my father's death...
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (102 of 117), Read 62 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ernie Belden drernest@pacbell.net
Date:
Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:16 PM
I just finished reading many of the postings. Many of our
readers tried hard to understand Hamlet, his personality,
motives, actions. But one of the first postings caught my
eye. This is the comment of a Chinese girl student who
has no admiration for Hamlet since he does not act like a
real man should. He is indecisive conflicted, confused, etc.
Comments later on note the fact that he was a student at
age 30. There is also the question if he actually wanted to
take over the kingdom. But there is no question that he
paid serious attention to his father's ghost and wanted
revenge. Again he was conflicted as to how to go about it
and last but not least while in love with Ophelia he found
himself preoccupied with his difficult, complex situation.
All this reminded me of a an interesting discussion I had
many years ago with a lady professor of literature who
was retired from the University and had taken off for a
year in Europe and did some research at the Bancroft
Library where I worked part time while a student at Cal.
We became friends and discussed at length essential
differences between American Students and the European
archetypical student,the thinker (Gruebler as the Germans
will say) confused about the meaning of most everything
especially the purpose of life and his future role.
Many years later I visited Vienna, where I was born and
went to see a Mozart Opera and as I had done before
went to the next door opera student hangout where they
served mainly wine and beer. I was with an American
friend who looked around and asked me why these young
people, obviously students, were reading books. I
remembered then and told my friend that these guys
were "seeking wisdom and meaning". I had forgotten
about this phenomenon I had observed as a teen ager.
Well there may have been a contemporary Hamlet sitting
around with a book. It's the culture, also reflected in
Hamlet's attempt to make sense of all these gruesome
and puzzling events.
The lady professor at Cal. had noted the same thing and
it became one of her most notable impression of
European students.
Ernie
Topic:
November: Hamlet (103 of 117), Read 65 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Monday, November 12, 2001 12:24 AM
Dean,
Good point about the ghost's selective appearances. Why
do the soldiers see him, but not Gertrude? Could he be a
figment of Hamlet's imagination in the second instance?
Ernie, those were interesting comments about the
differences between European and American students. I
was thinking again about the Chinese student's
comments on Hamlet after I finished listening to it. This is
a very emotional play and the emotions of the characters
are expressed without much restraint. Asian cultures put
a premium on being outwardly agreeable and keeping
your emotions private. I imagine this play seems very
strange indeed to many of them. Personally, I'm
wondering how they could possible understand it. Maybe
they read it in Chinese or have a modernized English
version. If so, all the poetry would be lost.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (104 of 117), Read 65 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Monday, November 12, 2001 12:50 PM
Dean, in No. 89 above I too expressed my fascination with
the question of why Gertrude cannot see and hear the
ghost. There is no reason to believe anything other than
that the ghost does not wish her to see him and does not
wish to engage in discussion with her. Of course that
begs the real question, why?
You quotations are apt. (". . .the devil hath power to
assume pleasing shape." My favorite Shakespearean
quotation of all time!) But whether or not the ghost is
some devious device of the devil, does not "The
Mousetrap" play and later events confirm the accuracy of
the ghost's report of the murder of Hamlet Sr.?
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (105 of 117), Read 59 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Monday, November 12, 2001 03:37 PM
Before the scene in Gertrude's closet, it is not her
bedroom but a private chamber, the ghost had already
told Hamlet not to disturb Gertrude's state of mind. It
follows that he wouldn't want to spook her by showing
himself. When he notices her troubled state at Hamlet's
reaction, he tells Hamlet to comfort her.
Hamlet does and he goes on to tell her that he is faking
madness. He makes her promise to keep his secret which
she does.
Ann, I think that we are meant to think that the ghost is
not in Hamlet's imagination because we are told of his
appearance and we hear what he says to Hamlet. If we
had experienced the ghost as Gertrude had, only through
Hamlet's reaction and speech, then we could say that
Hamlet imagined it.
Steve, I think that you are right. After the play Hamlet is
jubilant to have confirmed what the ghost had told him.
Later, in Gertrude's chamber Hamlet refera to the ghost
as father for the first time.
Some notes from OWC:
- "nunnery" does not have the sense of brothel because
Hamlet is speaking to Ophelia about avoiding breeding.
- Ophelia's first two songs speak of love and death which
indicate that she is driven mad by Hamlet's rejection and
her father's death by Hamlet.
As an aside, I hope that you will indulge me in expressing
a concern on a matter of speech. Something can raise a
question or lead us to a question or bring us to a
question but only a person can beg a question which is a
form of circular reasoning. With all the possible ways of
saying "raise the question," I hope that you will agree
that there is no need to use "beg the question" in this
context. My concern is that an important distinction not be
lost.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (106 of 117), Read 56 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
S.F. Strahan
Date:
Monday, November 12, 2001 04:05 PM
Wow, a lot of Hamlet notes over the weekend! On the
question of why Gertrude does not see the ghost-- I've
always thought that Hamlet Sr. was never visible to
Gertrude for the same reason he doesn't appear (as far
as we know) to Claudius; since he wants justice (or
revenge) for his wrongful death, he appears only to those
who might be able to forward that cause. He does not
appear to those who might be culpable in his death. He
doesn't know, but like Hamlet, may fear that Gertrude
was a party to his death. He loves her even after death
and doesn't want to look her in the eye as his brother's
bride and maybe see something that would indicate that
she didn't love him as much as he had thought when he
was alive.
That the ghost still cares for Gertrude is clear in his
admonishing of Hamlet to deal gently with her and "leave
her to heaven". Note, that he doesn't actually say that
Gertrude is an innocent party to the crime, but rather
begs Hamlet to be merciful to her and leave the
judgement of her to God--which sort of implies that the
ghost doesn't know if she is innocent or not, but perhaps
has a qualm about it.
There is a strong sexual subtext to Hamlet. In many
productions the scene with Hamlet and Gertrude in
Gertrude's chambers has an um...electric quality to it,
sometimes with the son flinging his mother down on the
bed and pinning her there, them delivering their lines
pantingly, with their faces close. It's very Oedipal, what
with Hamlet being so angry that Claudius (and not
himself!) has become king, that Claudius has his mother's
affections. One can read Hamlet's reactions not as anger
that his mother acted unseemly by marrying quickly, but
as jealousy that she chose Claudius as her king instead of
him!
That might shed some light on Hamlet killing the person
behind the arras...he has spewed out contempt for his
mother bedding down Claudius as if she were a common
whore...now he finds that there is someone hiding in her
bedchamber. No one with a legitimate reason to visit the
queen in her chambers would be hiding. Perhaps he just
blows up thinking that Gertrude has got yet *another*
lover! Imagine his fury!
I've thought that the bit about "A rat! Is it the king!"
wasn't about Hamlet actually thinking it was Claudius
behind the arras, but rather all part of him taking shots at
Gertrude. Sometimes it is played out as really part of his
torturing her and one has the impression that he doesn't
really care who is behind the arras; he just wants to
terrorize his mother to the greatest extent possible.
~~Susan~~
"Then would you read a Sustaining Book, such as would
help and comfort a Wedged Bear in Great Tightness?"
---Winnie The Pooh
Topic:
November: Hamlet (107 of 117), Read 54 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Monday, November 12, 2001 08:00 PM
Susan, the problem is that Hamlet berates his mother
after he kills Polonius not before.
I never liked the Oedipal interpretation. After all, not even
Oedipus was Oedipal. I prefer to think that the succession
is the issue as he himself says at the height of his rant.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (108 of 117), Read 47 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 09:45 AM
Someone mentioned our illustrious student overseas, who
does not like Hamlet or his actions. I have no problem
with their opinion...much of how Hamlet handles the
situation is shabby and heavyhanded, and worse
hurtful---as we see with Ophelia.
But it is easy for a student or anyone to say they "don't
like Hamlet" but what would they have done instead?
With this play we have very bad people. I can barely think
of an elder who I respect in the play. Ophelia's father
reads her love letters to others, Gertrude marries too
quickly after her husbands death. Claudius kills his own
brother.
These actions and people are morally wrong. Not one of
them appears to know how to "do the right thing". Of
course Hamlet Jr. would be
outraged...depressed...disillusioned. Who wouldn't?
Which, I would love to ask our fair student...how could
Hamlet have done "the right thing"?
Is it even possible to do the right thing?
Hamlet makes so many errors...he stereotypes all women
after his knowledge of his mothers actions. He has every
reason to see his mother as frail, as morally slack...but to
bind all women such? His own father he sees as a
warmonger...he does not want to be that way either to
take conflicts and solve them with violence. That is good.
He comes up with a clever way to find evidence, by
constructing a play that will out his uncle.
I think he is a hero and correct for not wanting to adopt
others ways of living...his mother, uncle and father, and
even Ophelias' pathetic father. He wants to amend
history.
How can he do that? How can we?
Instead, all backfires and he does act in each of the ways
he tried to reject...and it is incorrect to consider Hamlet a
character of inaction. His actions are mostly in his
thoughts, he has an active mind in the attempt to find the
right thing to do.
How do we do the right thing?
Candy
That for which we find words is something already dead in
our hearts. There is always a kind of contempt in the act
of speaking. Nietzsche
Topic:
November: Hamlet (109 of 117), Read 49 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:24 AM
Dean, you are quite right to object to a sloppy use of the
phrase "begs the question." I stand corrected.
You are also correct that the location of Act III, Scene iv, is
not Gertrude's bedroom. The fact is though that the scene
is often staged with Gertrude's bed as a prop, as Susan
correctly observes. I think that is because so many people
have discerned that the source of Hamlet's quandary has
so much to do with his attitude toward his mother, and
they wish to find ways to portray that.
Even T.S. Eliot in his famous essay on the play says, ". .
.the essential emotion of the play is the feeling of a son
towards a guilty mother."
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (110 of 117), Read 51 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:42 AM
Candy--
Fantastic if risky questions. I just finished reading Bloom's
wonderful essay on Hamlet in 'How To Read and Why',
one I assume you've read also. It focuses on the meat of
the play: it's ever-experimental nature and Hamlet's
seven soliloquies, those seven teaching us better than
anything in literature 'how to speak to ourselves'. Bloom
says Hamlet is trying to exert the powers of the mind over
a sea of troubles or a 'universe of death' but ultimately
fails because he thinks too honestly and too lucidly. But
the cognitive music generated in the effort it seems to me
transcends 'failure'.
I think any accurate accounting of Hamlet's motivations
would have to face those soliloquies head-on... a very
difficult task. Setting aside the obvious red herrings of
Hamlet as simple procrastinator or Hamlet as seeker of
the crown, two views which wilt in the face of the
intellectual vistas contained in the 'to be or not to be'
speech or the gravedigger scene, we are left to come up
with reasons for Hamlet's actions that will EQUAL in
complexity and weight the things he says to himself.
Bloom rightly points out that when Hamlet says:
' Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die...'
he is saying that when you take arms against the sea,
the sea will end you and your troubles with you. This is
not a man hoping to out-stall misery or who relishes the
prospect of lording over a court of Polonius's and Osric's.
This is not a man hoping for any conventionally happy
outcome whatsoever. This is a man dealing with thoughts
that are poisonous- the play invariably doubles things,
'mirrors nature', and the poison that drips from
swordblades and swirls in goblets in Act V is prefigured by
the mental poison that begins killing Hamlet in Act I, more
slowly, more cruelly for sure... but brings with it desperate
epiphanies.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (111 of 117), Read 53 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:15 PM
"An important scientific innovation rarely makes it's way
by gradually winning over and converting it's
opponents...What does happen is that it's opponents
gradually die out and that the growing generation is
familiarized with the idea from the beginning." Max Planck
For me, this play continues to intrigue me not because of
the details of the corruption among characters...but
because of the painful idea that Hamlet polluted by the
previous generation(or history if you like) must realize the
worries of the world, the sea of troubles, and to do
anything, he must also die to eliminate the corruption.
This is why he is also a hero figure to me. In this play,
there does not seem to be any way to cure history that
has already occurred. I see this play as an instrument for
safely working through how we, the reader or audience is
going to take on history. Of course this relates to several
world myths, particularly the Christ story, where Christ
dies to amend history...ideally so we can live free of the
karma of our "parents".
So far neither the Christ story or the Hamlet story has had
many smart intelligent readers...the evidence being we
continue to deal with history with the proven damaged
means we see in the Hamlet story(patterns repeated in
conflict resolution). Once again, reading has not seemed
to help planet earth. You'd think four hundred years after
the Hamlet story had entered our world consciousness we
would be able to walk away from violence and
hurtfulness. Sheesh, you'd think just one decent read
through and we would throw down our barbs...and reject
the patterns recorded in this play.
Sheesh, are human primates ever stupid.
Candy
That for which we find words is something already dead in
our hearts. There is always a kind of contempt in the act
of speaking. Nietzsche
Topic:
November: Hamlet (112 of 117), Read 53 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:34 PM
p.s.
Yes, I have read most of the essays in
that Bloom book, George. He does have
an enthusiastic attitude to Hamlets
talking/revelations. I like how Bloom
declares that talking to oneself can also
produce self-knowledge...
There are so many great critiques of
Hamlet...I would be lost to begin to quote
them...I am sorry to say, Steve, that Eliot is
not one of my favorite critics especially
when it came to Hamlet. I am not much
into a psychological approaches to
reading literature.(I in fact feel too much of
the world has gone psychological...in a
"bad science" kind of way. Psychology
when properly applied is about
recognizing patterns. Not labeling people
Oedipal or penis envied.I find it blase to
focus on momma pretty boy attitudes
towards literature. I think calling
characters "ninny's" is also counter
productive)I do not agree that the central
emotion of the play is Hamlets feelings
etc for his mother. I believe that is what
was critical to Eliot's emotions about the
play though. Poor boy.
Upon my jillioneth reading of this play, I
again reach the conclusion that humans
are idiots...except for the sweet princes
and princesses of the world...if only there
were more sweets like Ophelia and
Hamlet...maybe then????? we could
have a fun way of living, that is all of the
population having a fun run at it...
...at what point will reading and thinking
about Hamlet provide the next generation
with innovation towards daily life already
in place...like Max Planks apt observation
to application of new ideas...??? Maybe it
is plainly a bad play because it has been
unable to inspire hundreds of
generations to walk away from b.s.
Candy
That for which we find words is
something already dead in our hearts.
There is always a kind of contempt in the
act of speaking. Nietzsche
Topic:
November: Hamlet (113 of 117), Read 36 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 09:58 PM
Ann & Steve, I actually have the video of Burton's Hamlet,
purchased a couple of years ago in Stratford, Ont. My
view of Burton's portrayal is that there is what I would call
a contained fury: there's plenty of emotion, but it's much
more intense than Olivier.
Dean, I see what you mean about Hamlet & Richard III,
but Richard's talent for conniving and control makes
Hamlet seem like a flailing, out of control murderer.
Bloom says (in the chapter on Love's Labors Lost) that
there are only two happy marriages in all of Shakespeare:
The Macbeths before the murders, and Gertrude &
Claudius. Ouch!
MAP
Topic:
November: Hamlet (114 of 117), Read 42 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 03:15 AM
Steve, your response is greatly appreciated in form and
content.
Mary Anne, I agree. But whereas Hamlet is not the chess
master that Richard is, he has a far greater success in
gaining the sympathy of the audience. He convinces us
that Claudius and Gertrude are evil and that Polonius, R &
G deserve to die. At least, that is the effect which he had
on me. Upon this reading, what I see is that Claudius
could have gained the crown for the higher end of
preventing a war. I see that Claudius would not hurt
Hamlet because of the love which Claudius felt for
Gertrude. I see that Hamlet, spurred on by the ghost,
eventually forces Claudius to take action against him.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (115 of 117), Read 48 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:31 AM
I'm puzzled by Hamlet's sea voyage. It's hard to imagine
why Hamlet lets himself be placed on a ship to England, or
even what he'd have done if the expediency of the sea
battle hadn't occurred.
Hamlet seems to be literally 'drifting' here, and returns
from the sea much changed. It's a critical commonplace
that the Act V Hamlet is a different person- as one
example of that, he only mentions his father once in
passing during all of Act V.
Hamlet dies with one very earthly concern, a concern for
his 'name', his reputation. For the first time in the play,
again in Act V, Hamlet seems proud of his name and sure
of his identity:
HAMLET:
[Advancing] 'What is he whose grief
Bears such an emphasis? whose phrase of sorrow
Conjures the wandering stars, and makes them stand
Like wonder-wounded hearers? This is I,
Hamlet the Dane.'
So Hamlet is concerned for the good of his 'name', and he
knows full well that name will stand or fall with Horatio. So
he goes on the sea voyage to allow Claudius his attempt
to murder him. He collects Claudius's written command for
the 'present death of Hamlet'. Then he makes his case to
Horatio:
HORATIO:
'Why, what a king is this!'
HAMLET:
'Does it not, think'st thee, stand me now upon--
He that hath kill'd my king and whored my mother,
Popp'd in between the election and my hopes,
Thrown out his angle for my proper life,
And with such cozenage--is't not perfect conscience,
To quit him with this arm? and is't not to be damn'd,
To let this canker of our nature come
In further evil?'
Hamlet has been suicidal all play long, but here acts
outraged that Claudius would try to kill him. Hamlet never
wanted to be Denmark's version of the power-hungry
Fortinbras (whom Hamlet describes here):
'Led by a delicate and tender prince,
Whose spirit with divine ambition puff'd
Makes mouths at the invisible event,
Exposing what is mortal and unsure
To all that fortune, death and danger dare,
Even for an egg-shell.'
But Hamlet does want Horatio to report that he had full,
justifiable reasons to avenge himself. Hamlet is fighting
for his name. It's the only reason I could find why Hamlet
says these things and boards his own death-ship
voluntarily.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (116 of 117), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:57 AM
Thanks for the report on Burton's interpretation, MAP. I
had trouble coming up with a description but yours seems
to capture it as I recall, lo these many years later. Also, I
recall it being a very active, athletic performance by him in
the sense of his movement. As a result, one wonders
whether his Hamlet has actually lapsed into real rather
than feigned insanity.
This discussion has come to focus on the central question
of the play, the question that fascinates everyone. This is
the question of, why the delay by Hamlet? It is because
there are so many approaches to the answer that this
play has lasted as it has. It is a very interesting mystery
in that regard.
Steve
Topic:
November: Hamlet (117 of 117), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 07:28 PM
I was in the library today and dug up the ol Eliot
essays...and I had quite a laugh because he says(after he
obsessed about mommy heh heh)that Hamlet fails
because of Shakespeares weakness with the play. He
says that Shakespeare didn't know what to do so he
makes Hamlet do nothing....
This ties into what you just posted Steve, and what I
have been saying as I beat around the bush...you say
why does Hamlet take so long to do something...and I say
what can he do anyway?
Terry Eagleton says it is impossible to act with
authenticity in the world of Hamlet(that's our world too
buddy!)but in some ways, I think I understand what he
means...and this again works with the idea of why did it
take Hamlet so long to do something...
Eagleton seems to say that there isn't anything one can
do in this society because it's corrupt and impossible to be
"authentic".
Candy the depressed, misanthropic,existentialist who is
jealous of people who don't read....dam them!!!!!
An important scientific innovation rarely makes it's way by
gradually winning over and converting it's
opponents...What does happen is that it's opponents
gradually die out and that the growing generation is
familiarized with the idea from the beginning. Max Planck
Topic:
November: Hamlet (118 of 119), Read 22 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Sherri Kendrick sheval@hotmail.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 06:37 AM
I just wanted to say that I thought I'd have time to
reread this play and discuss, but RL has gotten in the
way. I have been reading the posts and have thoroughly
enjoyed the discussion. This is a great group!
Sherri
Topic:
November: Hamlet (119 of 119), Read 6 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Friday, November 23, 2001 10:27 AM
Finally had time to read this incredible discussion. I think
that I understood the feelings between Gertrude and
Hamlet as those between a mother and a much beloved
son. I can certainly see that it would be fun theatrically to
explore oedipal feelings between the two but I don't think
it's born out in the play.
I also read the relationship between Gertrude and
Claudius as being one of those attractions that overrode
each of their very real feelings for Hamlet Sr. One doesn't
need to negate the other. There are no speeches in
which Gertrude expresses her feelings for Hamlet Sr, but
her son's description of her actions toward him in the
beginning of the play are fairly clear. Claudius expresses
very real guilt about his murder of his brother in a speech
when he is alone on stage.
Also, when Laertes asks Claudius why he didn't proceed
against Hamlet for killing Polonius, he says:
O, for two special reasons,
Which may to you perhaps seem much unsinewed,
But yet to me they're strong. The Queen his mother
Lives almost by his looks, and for myself
(My virtue or my plague, be it either which),
She is so conjunctive to my life and soul
That, as the star moves not but in his sphere,
I could not but by her.
This speech seems to me to express both Gertrude's
intense love (maternal, in my reading) of her son and
Claudius' love for her. I suppose it could also be
interpreted as Claudius' dependence on her for a
legitimacy of claim to the throne, but as Hamlet's brother,
would he need her? In any case, it doesn't read as that
to me.
Steve, do you belong to netflix (dvd online rentals)? They
have a dvd of the Burton performance of Hamlet. It's
supposed to be arriving at our house any day now.
Also, I recently finished listening to the Branaugh version
on audiotape. I agree with your reaction to Derek Jacobi
as Claudius, Ann, and loved Judi Densch as Gertrude.
Maybe that is what has influenced my view of the
relationship between Claudius and Gertrude. I haven't
been able to find the movie on dvd though. Do you know
if it has been put in that format?
Barb
Topic:
November: Hamlet (120 of 133), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Felix Miller felix3rd@bellsouth.net
Date:
Friday, November 23, 2001 11:03 AM
Quoting from Steve: This discussion has come to focus on the
central question of the play, the question that fascinates
everyone. This is the question of, why the delay by Hamlet?
This is a heavy question. I have thought about this point much
over the years. Some approaches to playing Hamlet, especially
the Burton take, stress the emotion and rage of Hamlet, letting
him appear more a man of action than the events of the play
would suggest. How many times in the play does Hamlet take
decisive action against Claudius or the agents of Claudius? Four
times, if you count setting up the play within the play. He kills
Polonius (either mistaking him for Claudius or not,) he stages
the Mousetrap, he sets up R & G and he finally kills Claudius at
the climax of the dueling scene. Each of these actions (excepting
the play) is an immediate reaction to some action of another
character. Staging the play is more active in its effect on
Claudius than as a personal act by Hamlet. You might say that
when Hamlet has time to think, his actions are passive (feigning
madness, staging the play, the un-wooing of Ophelia.)
An amusing game with Shakespeare is substituting one
character for another in a different play and imagining what
would happen. If Hotspur had been the son on the parapet when
the ghost told the story of murder, the play would have been
over in the next scene, after Hotspur had dashed down the
stairs and skewered Claudius.
O the Book/ Of the Dead, and the dead bright sun on the page/
Where the team stands ready to explode/ In all directions with
Time...
Felix Miller
Topic:
November: Hamlet (121 of 133), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Friday, November 23, 2001 09:29 PM
Barb,
We rented the Branagh video and I watched it with my son last
spring. I don't know if it has been released on DVD. Julie
Christie is Gertrude in the film version and, much as I admire
Judi Densch, Julie Christie is almost perfect in the film version.
It is obvious that she and Claudius have a very physical
relationship. Watching her face in the final scene, it is clear that
she is devastated when she realizes that Claudius has poisoned
her son. I love that speech of Claudius which you quoted.
I feel that Gertrude's feelings for her son were strictly maternal.
Rather than feeling a sexual attraction towards his mother
himself, Hamlet seems primarily disturbed by the thought that
his mother is involved in a sexual relationship with anyone. He
views this as completely inappropriate. Maybe, like many
children, he subconsciously assumed that part of her died with
his conception. :)
Let us know what you think of the Burton version. Felix, if I read
you right, you think that Burton's interpretation is not supported
by the text. Correct me if I am wrong.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (122 of 133), Read 27 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 02:58 AM
Wow, this has been a fascinating discussion to read! I am new
here (only just found this site) but would like to add some
thoughts. I hope that this is still a "live" discussion and I will get
some responses!
With regard to the political aspect of Hamlet's dilemma, wouldn't
Shakespeare's audience have been well aware of how coups
were generally engineered? After all plenty of other
Shakespeare plays dealt with such matters (the Wars of the
Roses etc.). If "Hamlet" were about a struggle for the succession
of the throne, surely Hamlet would have promptly begun
gathering adherents and plotting Claudius' overthrow. Maybe
I'm influenced by having seen the Olivier movie as a kid, but the
setting of "Hamlet" has always seemed to me to be the interior
of Hamlet's mind, not the political stage. The castle and its
inhabitants seem more like something from one of Hamlet's
nightmares than like any real place & people.
On another note, is it just me or does Hamlet seem totally
anti-sexual, maybe misogynistic? His disgust at Gertrude's affair
with Claudius seems almost too marked, even for a young man
whose mother has been cavorting with his uncle. And his
behavior to Ophelia is extremely ambivalent and resentful.
I agree with those who have said that nothing about him
suggests that he really wants to be king. His dilemma is how to
avenge his father, not how to win the throne for himself. In
Hamlet's mind, he never seems to look beyond the moment of
killing Claudius to what would actually happen then (i.e. that
Hamlet would become king) -- he seems to know in advance
that Claudius' death means his own death.
Are we allowed to discuss other perspectives of "Hamlet" here?
I'd love to talk about "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead"
-- one of my favorite plays and a great "worm's eye view" of
"Hamlet."
Topic:
November: Hamlet (123 of 133), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 06:50 AM
Welcome, Alice!
I haven't been participating in this Hamlet discussion, but I have
been eavesdropping. I wanted to greet you and hope you stick
around awhile. We'd love to hear more about you. Please
introduce yourself in the Welcome Conference. Also, the
Constant Reader and Reading List conferences have several
book discussions going. I hope you join us. Or start your own
thread on a book you would like to discuss.
Sherry
Topic:
November: Hamlet (124 of 133), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Robert Armstrong rla@nac.net
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 08:25 AM
Welcome, Alice. Thanks for your comments.
I'm also a fan of Tom Stoppard's ROSENCRANTZ AND
GUILDENSTERN ARE DEAD. I'd have to reacquaint myself with it
to really contribute something but I'd enjoy any comments you
have on the play. I like the way Stoppard engages in verbal
fencing. Satire is certainly in the spirit of Hamlet's character who
experiments with the two edged sword of comedy and tragedy.
Robt
Topic:
November: Hamlet (125 of 133), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:22 AM
Welcome, Alice! Since I've just finished reading the play, then
listening to Branaugh's audio version, I am still interested in
discussing it and it sounds like others are too. We are always
interested in other perspectives, I think, especially after the
meat of the initial discussion. However, I haven't read the play
that you mentioned. One of the nominations for our other
reading list for next year was Tom Stoppard's Arcadia which I
voted for because I've been interested in reading one of his
plays for a while. BTW, if you are interested in reading them
with us, you still have time to vote for the books we will read
here in Classics Corner next year as well as those on the
Constant Reader list (under the heading "Reading List"). Both
votes are due by November 28th, I believe.
Barb
Topic:
November: Hamlet (126 of 133), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:50 AM
Alice and Ann, I thought a lot about Hamlet's attitudes toward
both his mother and Ophelia while I was reading the play. I had
the sense that the bitterness of both had to do with discovering
that his mother had probably been unfaithful to his father while
he was living. Even at 30 (has that guess about his age been
confirmed?), one has the sense that your mother and father are
an untainted unit if nothing contrary to that image has been
introduced. I had the sense that his mother had been placed on
quite a high pedestal in Hamlet's mind which gave her a long
way to fall after his father's ghost introduced new facts. In his
bitterness, he distrusted and hated all women to a point, though
his tenderness toward both Gertrude and Ophelia break through
at various points.
Alice, I like your description of the setting of the play being the
interior of Hamlet's mind. And, I also didn't get the sense that
this was the ordinary jockeying for political power. In my New
Folger Library edition of Hamlet, there is an article by Michael
Neill (whoever he is) that gives an historical perspective to the
play. He says that the story is an ancient one, belonging to
Norse saga, which had been told in many forms. It was adapted
by Thomas Kyd and done on English stages until at least 1596.
Neill speculates that Shakespeare's original intention may have
been to simply polish up that play but that his wholesale
rewriting produced a work "...so unlike Kyd's work that its
originality was unmistakable even to playgoers familiar with
Kyd's play."
I'll give up on paraphrasing and just quote Neill's paragraph that
I find most interesting. It ties in with your comment, Alice.
The new tragedy preserved the outline of the old story, and took
over Kyd's most celebrated contributions--a ghost crying for
revenge, and a play-within-the-play that sinisterly mirrors the
main plot; but by focusing upon the perplexed interior life of the
hero, Shakespeare gave a striking twist to what had been a
brutally straightforward narrative. On the levels of both revenge
play and psychological drama, the play develops a
preoccupation with the hidden, the secret, and the mysterious
that does much to account for its air of mystery. In Maynard
Mack's words, it is 'a play in the interrogative mood' whose
action deepens and complicates, rather than answers, the
apparently casual question with which it begins, 'Who's there?'
Interesting, eh? I think Shakespeare adds multiple shades of
psychological greys to the usual black and white questions of
political intrigue and maybe removes the latter all together.
Barb
Topic:
November: Hamlet (127 of 133), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Felix Miller felix3rd@bellsouth.net
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 11:47 AM
Ann asked: Felix, if I read you right, you think that Burton's
interpretation is not supported by the text. Correct me if I am
wrong.
I must qualify anything I say about the Burton Hamlet by
stressing that I only saw this production once, many years ago.
I enjoyed Burton's performance very much, but it seemed to me
that he was swimming upstream, so to speak, in approaching
Hamlet as a man of action, instead of reaction, which is how I
read the character. But there are enough complexities in the
text to allow many interpretations of the character.
In addition, the text is just one element of a complete
production, and a really strong performance, like Burton's, can
carry off an interpretation which seems a stretch when you
simply read the text.
O the Book/ Of the Dead, and the dead bright sun on the page/
Where the team stands ready to explode/ In all directions with
Time...
Felix Miller
Topic:
November: Hamlet (128 of 133), Read 30 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 01:00 PM
Thanks for the welcome, everyone! I would highly recommend
reading "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead" (the movie
with Tim Roth and Gary Oldman was also excellent) just for the
new window it opens onto "Hamlet." In fact, now that I think
about it, my concept of "Hamlet" being about what's going on in
Hamlet's brain may have also come from this play -- imagine
wandering around in someone else's dream, and you get an
idea of how R&G feel in Stoppard's play. Stoppard envisions
R&G not as slimy spies or buffoons but as confused and hapless
people who are caught up in something they don't understand,
ordered to "glean what afflicts" Hamlet (but in fact he runs
circles around them when they try to grill him), and end up
being executed for no reason. Their situation is seen as a
metaphor for life, where we've all been dropped into a play in
which we're not the stars, just expendable characters used to
swell a scene or two. The head Player of the acting troupe says
to R&G when they complain about being left in such confusion,
"Uncertainty is the normal state. You're nobody special."
I also can't resist quoting this bit from "R&G Are Dead," spoken
by Guildenstern after the Players have been rehearsing a
particularly death-filled scene:
"No, no, no . . . you've got it all wrong . . . you can't act death.
The [i]fact[/i] of it is nothing to do with seeing it happen -- it's
not gasps and blood and falling about -- that isn't what makes it
death. It's just a man failing to reappear, that's all -- now you
see him, now you don't, that's the only thing that's real: here
one minute and gone the next and never coming back -- an exit,
unobtrusive and unannounced, a disappearance gaining weight
as it goes on, until, finally, it is heavy with death."
Of course, that's exactly how R&G meet their end -- it's only the
leading characters like Hamlet and Claudius who get to die
dramatically on stage.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (129 of 133), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Pres Lancaster plancast@neteze.com
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 01:20 PM
ANN, you say:
"Maybe, like many children, he subconsciously assumed
that part of her died with his conception. :)"
I would rather think that Hamlet followed what I believe to a be
a common idea down through the ages, a masculine myth to
enslave women, that a portion of the woman (unspecified) dies
when the husband dies. (Unless, of course, the wife is buried or
burned with the husband).
And when Gertrude shows a quite lively affection for Claudius,
Hamlet is outraged, not on his own account, but because sacred
proprieties, the decencies themselves, have been violated.
I feel that Hamlet's reaction to his mother's marriage to
Claudius boils up after the Ghost (Hamlet's conscience ?)
charges him with avenging his father. Goaded continuously by
his doubts about that, this further confusion further churns his
psyche.
pres
"I just kind of conjured them up out of my subconscious and put
them in order of ascending peculiarity." EDWARD GOREY
Topic:
November: Hamlet (130 of 133), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Pres Lancaster plancast@neteze.com
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 01:36 PM
GREETINGS ALICE:
Great posts.
I am a great Stoppard fan, but must report, sadly, R&GAD lost
its luster on further acquaintance. Will look at it again.
From some distance, I feel that the main, and almost only, point
of R&G is that there is "life out there, Barnaby" apart from the
blood and thunder of the main characters. I don't find any
illumination of Hamlet. I do think that "the worms eye view" is a
great idea, but . . .
pres
"I just kind of conjured them up out of my subconscious and put
them in order of ascending peculiarity." EDWARD GOREY
Topic:
November: Hamlet (131 of 133), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 03:07 PM
Alice-
Wonderful posts. I think the 'verbal tennis' scene in R&GaD
captures the volleying of words in Hamlet very well.
I was hoping once we'd buried the phantasmal power-mad
Hamlet posts like yours would surface... you show a great
openness to the play's questions.
As for Hamlet's asexuality, I agree, but only with the Hamlet in
front of us, the post-ghost Hamlet. The glimpses we get of the
previous one,
-
HAMLET:
No, not I;
I never gave you aught.
OPHELIA:
My honour'd lord, you know right well you did;
And, with them, words of so sweet breath composed
As made the things more rich: their perfume lost,
Take these again;
- [Reads]
'To the celestial and my soul's idol, the most
beautified Ophelia,'--
That's an ill phrase, a vile phrase; 'beautified' is
a vile phrase: but you shall hear. Thus:
[Reads]
'In her excellent white bosom, these, &c.'
QUEEN GERTRUDE:
Came this from Hamlet to her?
LORD POLONIUS:
Good madam, stay awhile; I will be faithful.
[Reads]
'Doubt thou the stars are fire;
Doubt that the sun doth move;
Doubt truth to be a liar;
But never doubt I love.
'O dear Ophelia, I am ill at these numbers;
I have not art to reckon my groans: but that
I love thee best, O most best, believe it. Adieu.
'Thine evermore most dear lady, whilst
this machine is to him, HAMLET.'
etc., THIS Hamlet seems to me very different.
I loved your comment on Claudius's death meaning Hamlet's
death too... exactly right. Although I'd push the point further and
say that Hamlet is dead the moment the ghost arrives and he
99% knows it. After the ghost pushes him into a campaign
against the powers that be, everything afterwards is borrowed
time for our young prince.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (132 of 133), Read 20 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 03:12 PM
Good point Pres, about the obvious dishonor to Hamlet Sr. After
all, he had not even been dead 2 months before the marriage
took place. Barb, do you think it is certain that Gertrude's affair
with Claudius started before the elder Hamlet was murdered? If
so, was Gertrude guilty of complicity in the crime?
Felix, I saw the Burton version many years ago too. Burton was
such a dynamic presence that his performance made a strong
impression on me, although I can't remember any details.
Alice, welcome to Classics Corner! Your comments about the
possible misogyny of Hamlet were very interesting. He is really
cruel to Ophelia, isn't he? I wonder how close their relationship
had been. During the mad scene, Ophelia sings a song about a
man who has sex with a young girl, falsely promising to marry
her just to get her into his bed. If in fact her relationship with
Hamlet had progressed that far, Hamlet could well have felt
totally betrayed by Ophelia's earlier rejection, coming at a time
when he was tortured by his father's untimely death and the
scandalous behavior of his mother and uncle. Does that to a
certain extent explain, as opposed to justify, his behavior to
her?
Now that you have found us, I hope that you will be able to join
us in future discussions. December 1 marks the official start of
the discussion of Victory by Joseph Conrad. January 1, we will
begin discussing The Moonstone by Wilkie Collins. Currently, we
are in the process of voting for books to discuss for the rest of
2002. Check out the note in this conference titled "Nominations -
Time to Vote" if you are interested in voting.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (133 of 133), Read 20 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com
Date:
Saturday, November 24, 2001 07:09 PM
Good question about Gertrude initiating her affair with Claudius
prior to Hamlet Sr.'s death, Ann. I'm not sure where I got that
idea. Need to go back and see if I just assumed it or if it is more
specifically alluded to at some point.
BTW, my husband is much more interested in seeing
Brannaugh's Hamlet now that he knows that Gertrude is played
by Julie Christie. He's a big Judi Densch fan as well, but his
admiration for Julie Christie is a bit different and goes way back.
Barb
Topic:
November: Hamlet (134 of 140), Read 22 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Sunday, November 25, 2001 06:57 PM
In Act V, scene i, 247-248 Hamlet asserts his right to the throne
by a convention well established in the play:
This is I,
Hamlet the Dane.
Hamlet's resentment of Claudius from the very beginning is due
to the fact that Hamlet sees himself as the rightful king.
Unfortunately, he is the only one in Denmark who does. It is this
which isolates him.
It is precisely to stop Hamlet from raising supporters that
Claudius confines Hamlet to Elsinore.
When the ghost tells Hamlet the story of the murder, Hamlet
exclaims
O my prophetic soul! My uncle!
Hamlet was already suspicious of Claudius the ghost gives
Hamlet some way of overthrowing Claudius.
The ghost tells Hamlet to pursue the task of revenge with
untainted mind. The idea of tainted motive is a major them in
the play.
Hamlet's delay arises from several factors not the least of which
is Hamlet's distrust of the ghost. But, even by the
eye-for-an-eye rule which the ghost urges on Hamlet, some
justification is required before one kills someone. Hamlet needs
to have the king's guilt made evident to himself and an impartial
witness. For this he enlists Horatio.
R&G try to dissuade Hamlet from his ambition. I think that by
doing so they were acting out of concern for him. I agree that
they died for no reason although Hamlet does justify his killing
of them to Horatio.
Concerning Gertrude and the murder of Hamlet Sr., I think that
she knew nothing of it not only because of her reaction when
Hamlet confronts her with the idea but also because she doesn't
hesitate to drink from the poisoned wine after Claudius had
asked her not to drink. If she had known about the murder, I
surmise that she would have more readily heeded Claudius.
From the beginning Hamlet's concern about the wedding is that it
happened so quickly. Hamlet feels that this speed to the altar
robbed him of the throne. This is what makes Hamlet
disproportionately angry with his mother.
Just after he tells his mother that Claudius stole the crown from
him the ghost enters. Hamlet says something which touches at
once on the lost crown and the revenge of his father:
Do you not come your tardy son to chide,
That, lapsed in time and passion, lets go by
The important acting of your dread command?
Tardy son
- Hamlet arrived too late to claim the crown for himself.
- Hamlet moving slowly to exact revenge
lapsed in time and passion
- Hamlet fallen to an unexpected (i.e., not kingly) state because
of the short time and passion leading to the wedding.
- Hamlet has departed from the standard set by the ghost by the
time which he has taken and his passion for the crown (i.e., a
tainted mind).
The ghost wants Hamlet to execute vengeance regardless of the
consequences to Hamlet. I would have to say, then, that the
ghost wants Hamlet's destruction.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (135 of 140), Read 25 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Sunday, November 25, 2001 09:27 PM
George, I've been thinking about my concept of Hamlet's
asexuality, and I don't think his love poetry to Ophelia disproves
it. I think there's a big difference between writing chaste poetry
hymning someone's white bosom, and actually doing the wild
thing with aforesaid bosom. I just think that Hamlet's conflicting
attitudes towards Gertrude and Ophelia stem more from a kind
of sexual panic than from the traditional notion of an Oedipus
complex. Hamlet's language to Gertrude about her marriage to
Claudius ("to live in the rank sweat of an enseamed bed; Stew'd
in corruption; honeying, and making love over the nasty stye")
smack more of complete disgust with their sexual relationship
than of sexual jealousy.
Dean, I would agree that Claudius is concerned for the safety of
his throne -- later on, he handles Laertes (who has managed to
raise a rabble all yelling "Laertes shall be King!" when he storms
into the castle bent on revenge for Polonius' death) very
masterfully. My only issue was that I don't think Hamlet's
motivations are political. Obviously his father wanted him to
overthrow Claudius and take the throne; therefore Hamlet's
quandary is not only that he has to kill Claudius but that his duty
to his father requires that he seize the kingship when it's the last
thing he wants to do. He just wants to go back to being a student
with Horatio.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (136 of 140), Read 27 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Sunday, November 25, 2001 10:07 PM
Alice, "He just wants to go back to being a student... "
How can we accept this without ignoring Hamlet's own words (on
several occasions) that the crown was stolen from him and that
he is king of Denmark?
Dean
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (137 of 140), Read 24 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:29 PM
Dean,
You made a good case for Gertrude not knowing about Hamlet
Sr.'s murder.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (138 of 140), Read 23 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Monday, November 26, 2001 12:25 AM
Dean, I would distinguish between what Hamlet feels is his
obligation (to claim the crown) and what he really wants to do
(go back to Wittgenstein or wherever he was). I liked the points
made earlier about how it must have been somewhat odd for the
next in line to the throne in a war-beset kingdom to spend so
many years out of the country at a university. We can assume
that Hamlet Sr. had things well under control and that Hamlet Jr.
had no reason to think that his father would die any time soon;
but a different crown prince would have been fighting in his
father's wars and learning to be his right-hand general. Perhaps
if Hamlet Jr. had spent more time in Denmark since becoming
an adult, the electors would have given the crown to him instead
of Claudius.
I do see the main theme of this play as being Hamlet's struggle
to be the son/man he thinks he ought to be. Maybe all the killing
he does is his attempt to measure up to the "warrior king" role
model. He certainly does more navel-gazing than any other
Shakespeare character I can think of -- not so very different
from college students today!
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon
Topic:
November: Hamlet (139 of 140), Read 20 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Monday, November 26, 2001 09:07 AM
Alice--
Reconsidering the sexuality issue, I might agree more with you
than I do with myself. His horror/distaste for the subject might
pre-date his father's death... it's so hard to make out. He
definitely torments Ophelia with sexual innuendos later in the
play. I wonder if Hamlet's rage against physical love can be
classified under a larger heading of rage at physical matter
itself? After all, these lines sound suspiciously similar to the ones
you cited as Hamlet's hatred of sex-
-HAMLET:
' he hath
borne me on his back a thousand times; and now, how
abhorred in my imagination it is! my gorge rises at
it. Here hung those lips that I have kissed I know
not how oft.'
They refer to Yorick, of course, but they have the same feel.
You've raised a very interesting point here though.
I don't think Hamlet is trying to live up to the 'warrior' model by
killing old men behind curtains and hounding women into
instability... I've learned by reading 'Hamlet' never to
underestimate Hamlet himself... his mind has a laser-like ability
to burn away pretensions, and the idea of him walking around
puffed up with a sense that he was a mighty warrior because he
killed Polonius is just impossible to me. Hamlet may be
navel-gazing, but one in every million humans are lucky to
escape life with the level of insight he achieves (one in every
million literary characters too!)
(BTW, Alice, your 'aforesaid bosom' line was classic.)
Dean--
I'm curious, and if you get the time... could you please give me
your take on the famous 'to be or not to be' soliloquy?
HAMLET:
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.--
Topic:
November: Hamlet (140 of 140), Read 13 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Monday, November 26, 2001 11:24 AM
Once again, I see an opportunity for a variety of opinions:
Hamlet was on his way back to school when the worried
Claudius stopped him. But just because Claudius was worried
that Hamlet would amass forces to regain the throne doesn't
mean that's what Hamlet had in mind. That thought doesn't
occur to Hamlet until the ghost appears. That's when Hamlet
starts thinking about how he might avenge what he now is told
was his father's murder. But even at that, Hamlet is a study in
passive-aggressive behavior. He's never before shown any
inclination toward the leadership thing, and they apparently
didn't teach "Coups 101" at school. So he's clueless as to how to
get the job done. And this uncertainty is what makes the play
great. Without it, there would be no Acts II to V.
MAP
Topic:
November: Hamlet (141 of 150), Read 37 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Monday, November 26, 2001 06:08 PM
Mary Anne, Hamlet began his aggression before he was
refused leave to return to school and before he met the
ghost.
His attire says that he doesn't accept that he is not king.
His opening words emphasize it. We don't know yet that
he is a student; only that he is a prince, he has not
become king and he doesn't like it.
His first soliloquy opens with
O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!
Hamlet's loss and despair of getting the crown are so
great that it leads him to question the value of life itself.
But why is he not the king? Hamlet blames his mother's
"dexterity" to re-marry another royal. How often does
Hamlet mention time in this speech? Why is time a factor?
We just learned that Hamlet came from Wittenberg so he
could not be home in time to make his claim to the throne.
But Hamlet can say nothing about it... for now. (Later, in
the chamber scene, he tells his mother how angry he is
that she married so quickly thereby letting Claudius steal
the crown.)
George, I will get to the "to be or not to be" speech but I
would like to consider what leads to it first. Mary Anne's
comments gave me a chance to begin this. I will post
more thoughts shortly.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (142 of 150), Read 35 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 27, 2001 01:09 AM
George, I agree with you about Hamlet's ability to see
through others' pretensions and masks, but I'm not so
sure he's equally good at seeing his own pretensions. He
seems to me the epitome of a very scarily intelligent
person who is almost afraid of his own intelligence -- the
type of person Matt Damon was supposed to be
portraying in "Good Will Hunting." (Remember how
Damon's character in that film always instantly saw
through the hidden desires and motivations of everyone
around who was trying to manipulate him or use him for
their own ends, but he couldn't seem to figure out what it
was he wanted?)
BTW I didn't mean that Hamlet thought he was a big-time
warrior dude for stabbing Polonius behind the curtain --
what I meant was more that he was trying to become
more inured to violence and death, as being things that a
king regards as unfortunate but expedient, while his own
private feelings would have preferred to avoid the whole
business. That he did not behave in a very kingly fashion
at all shows, to my mind, more that he didn't have the
faintest idea how to go about acting like a king, than that
he was actually a vicious and bloodthirsty type of person.
Mary Anne, LOL at "Coups 101."
Dean, I think the "too too solid flesh" speech shows more
Hamlet's general state of ennui and despair, than his
anger at not being king.
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon
Topic:
November: Hamlet (143 of 150), Read 34 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 27, 2001 09:57 AM
Dean--
Thanks.
Alice--
I'll take your post backwards: the way you rephrased
your point in paragraph 2 makes a lot of sense. That I can
agree with.
Your first paragraph made me wonder though- are not
knowing what you want in life & seeing through your own
flaws and pretensions mutually exclusive concepts or do
they feed each other sometimes? I suspect the latter
here. Nobody explains Hamlet like Hamlet. That sounds
simplistic, but in literature it is actually rare. Think about
Doctor Faustus wandering through 5 Acts never knowing
what kind of person he really was. I think Hamlet, despite
his famous delay, knows already what he wants: he
wants theatre, he wants to read, he wants knowledge,
nobility, truth. Perhaps he even wants to write, to be
William Shakespeare. I think Hamlet also knows that his
father is killing him. Think about it... Hamlet turns out to
be pretty damn hard for Claudius to exterminate. Not an
easy guy to kill. But if I had been assigned the task of
assassinating Hamlet (without worrying about collateral
damage), I could've thought of no better way than to
make a ghost appear that looked like his father and make
it say what it said. Hamlet is a dead man by Act 1. and he
knows it. His delay is precisely because he hasn't figured
IT out yet to his own satisfaction; what he is, what family
is, what love is, what life is...and what death is. But the
Act 5 Hamlet has gotten as close to sharply knowing
these things as anyone ever will. And the 'revenge' motif
is a shell game.
I have wholehearted admiration for anyone who, facing
sure and imminent death, can say to themselves 'I am
ready and that is enough. Let be.' That sounds and smells
and looks to me like a person who has figured out what
they wanted and what they were.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (144 of 150), Read 37 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:29 AM
Well, Dean, that's where you and I have a difference of
opinion: I don't see Hamlet's wearing black as treason or
as demonstration of his grief over his loss of the crown.
Claudius sees it that way, but I believe that Hamlet's
overriding grief is for his father. And I choose not to view
Hamlet's motives through Claudius' eyes. As I said several
times before, there are many ways to frame the words of
Shakespeare.
MAP
Topic:
November: Hamlet (145 of 150), Read 36 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 27, 2001 06:01 PM
Mary Anne, I agree. The way I see it, each one of us
would direct this play differently, each putting the
emphasis on different aspects of Hamlet's character. And
so each of us is the sole director of the play in er own
globe, and we share our visions here.
I admit that a Hamlet who is ambitious and proud is new
to me and I'm looking to see how well it can be contained
within the bounds of the text. Is there any place in the
text which contradicts this aspect of Hamlet? I have yet to
see it but I hasten to add that this is a question of
emphasis. So, George and Alice would direct a scholarly
Hamlet compelled by obligation, Mary Anne would perhaps
put more emphasis on Hamlet's grief, I would have a
Hamlet with emphasis on pride and ambition.
So I agree with Rosencrantz that it is Hamlet's ambition
which makes Denmark a prison. And when Hamlet says
O God, I could be bounded in a nut shell and count
myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I
have bad dreams.
I see that he could be content were it not for the "bad
dreams," which I take to mean anguish of pride and
ambition. (The OWC annotates "bad dreams" as "the
ghost.")
And so when Hamlet says
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?
He asks whether nobility lies in enduring the wounds to
pride and ambition caused by "outrageous fortune" or to
struggle against unbeatable odds but the act of opposing
will end the injury to pride.
From OWC:
- Hamlet speaks in general terms, never using "I" or "me."
- It is not evident whether "in the mind" is to go with "to
suffer" or with "nobler." [OWC prefers the latter, I have
opted for the former.]
- The two courses which Hamlet considers are "fortitude
in endurance" and "courage in resistance."
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (146 of 150), Read 27 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:20 AM
Oh Dean, I don't want to think of "bad dreams" as
meaning "the ghost!" Tell me I don't have to! I've always
linked that statement (which is one of the most moving
and pathetic in any literature IMO) to Hamlet's earlier
phrase "For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause." If Hamlet's nightmares are so bad
now, no wonder he's afraid of dying and being alone with
his subconscious. (BTW, does anyone else think that the
"to be or not to be" soliloquy is maybe just a bit
un-Christian, maybe even heretical by the standards of
the day?)
George, I loved your comment "No one explains Hamlet
like Hamlet." That's pretty much what I meant by
"navel-gazing." Can you think of any other Shakespeare
play where the title character spends so much time
talking about himself, the fact that he's feeling depressed,
what he thinks about things, what kind of person he is,
etc.? Granted others are constantly asking him about
himself, but even his soliloquys are full of the subject. You
may be right that Hamlet possesses more insight into
himself than most people do -- he probably does, on
some level, already know what he wants. The impression
I get is that he is paralyzed by his situation -- it's hard
enough to lose your beloved father (and your mother,
through her immediate remarriage and total absorption in
her new husband), but to learn that he was murdered by
his brother and that you have to revenge him, is enough
to mess with anyone's happy. (When you think about it,
Hamlet's reaction to his situation is strikingly normal,
unlike the totally implausible reactions of so many
dramatic characters both in Shakespeare's time and in
modern movies. Why on earth should we expect someone
in such a situation to not be messed up, confused,
transferring his emotions to inappropriate targets, etc.?)
Your comment about Hamlet being killed by his father is
interesting because personally, I've never been convinced
that Hamlet's conversations with the ghost were entirely
a product of the supernatural rather than (at least
partially) a product of Hamlet's own mind. (I know Horatio
and the others saw the ghost; but am I right in
remembering that Hamlet is the only one who ever hears
it speak?) I would not put it past Hamlet's subconscious
to do such a thing to him.
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon
Topic:
November: Hamlet (147 of 150), Read 26 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 04:33 AM
Alice--
Your memory is absolutely correct about the ghost and
you may very well be right about Hamlet's projecting
subconscious... though the point is rendered somewhat
moot by the fact that Claudius IS guilty and everything
apparently happened just as the ghost/subconscious
said. The truth Hamlet seeks is also striking him down.
My only fundamental difference of opinion with you is in
the reasoning & value behind Hamlet's so-called
'paralysis'. In traditional terms of action, you are right, he
is paralyzed. In terms of thought though, his mind is
unleashed, free, moving at a white-hot, even perilous
pace. From Hamlet's point of view it must look something
like this: 'The moment I land the killing blow on Claudius I
die. I either get away with it and become encased in the
false cares & rituals of kingship, or I am killed as a traitor.
Regardless, I am profoundly afraid of replacing my father
as king, becoming evermore like him & everless like
myself. And no matter what turn events take, I can never
trust my point of origin, my mother, or by extension, any
women whatsoever, again. My judgement hour is at hand
and I am NOT ready for it. I must feign madness to gain
time to understand what is happening to me and what
that 'me' actually is.'
One of my favorite Shakespearean scenes is in Henry IV,
part 1 when Falstaff falls to the ground mid-battle
counterfeiting death in order to gain life. The audience
finds it funny and takes the comfortable way out, judging
Falstaff a coward and Hal a hero. But then Falstaff
speaks:
'Sblood,'twas time to counterfeit, or
that hot termagant Scot had paid me scot and lot too.
Counterfeit? I lie, I am no counterfeit: to die,
is to be a counterfeit; for he is but the
counterfeit of a man who hath not the life of a man:
but to counterfeit dying, when a man thereby
liveth, is to be no counterfeit, but the true and
perfect image of life indeed. The better part of
valour is discretion; in the which better part I
have saved my life.'
In normal terms, Hal the action hero gets the better of
this scene. But in intellectual terms, Falstaff is the hero,
able to choose authentic life over counterfeit heroism.
Think of Hamlet's delay as Falstaff's counterfeit moment
stretched over 4 Acts. Except our dark prince may be in
quest of a 'true and perfect image' of death too. If Hamlet
had acted right away in Act 1, he would've been a
counterfeit hero and the pawn of forces internal and
external that he did not understand. The Hamlet that
glimpses the divinity that shapes our ends in Act 5 is no
counterfeit. He has earned the name he shares with his
father.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (148 of 150), Read 28 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:52 AM
Alice, the OWC note that "bad dreams" is the ghost
applies only to Hamlet's short remark to R&G. It doesn't
apply to the beautiful passage which you mention and I
agree with you that I would never want it to.
George, I am very much enjoying your posts. Your Hamlet
as a man of action and strong character is very appealing
to me. Can we agree that a self-pitying Hamlet is the
worst incarnation of this remarkably complex character?
Be that as it may, your posts have brought me to a
heightened awareness of the poignancy of this tragedy.
There is no denying Hamlet's humanity and you have
expressed it very well.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (149 of 150), Read 17 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Alice CK aliceck@pacbell.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 28, 2001 09:03 PM
George: my notion about the ghost being in part a
production of Hamlet's own brain has less to do with the
accuracy of the ghost's statements (which only proves
that Hamlet subconsciously already knew what Claudius
had done, which we get anyway from "o my prophetic
soul! Mine uncle?"), and more to do with the burden of
vengeance the ghost lays on Hamlet. I don't know what
Danish customs regarding avenging the death of a family
member were, but Hamlet's dilemma here reminds me a
bit of Orestes' dilemma -- and Orestes was pursued by
the Furies for years, wasn't he? All I'm trying to say is that
it's a pretty heavy burden to put on poor Hamlet, whether
it was Hamlet's father's ghost who did it or Hamlet
himself. I only brought up the point because you
mentioned that you felt it was a very effective way of
achieving Hamlet's death. That leads to all sorts of other
ideas about parents "killing" their children with their
expectations and demands (Hamlet Sr. just wants his son
to take over the family business, after all!) and about
neurotic young people with suicidal impulses and how
those impulses are acted out.
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and
writing an exact man." -- Francis Bacon
Topic:
November: Hamlet (150 of 150), Read 9 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
George Healy malword@ameritech.net
Date:
Thursday, November 29, 2001 01:23 AM
Dean--
You give me far too much credit... but thank you.
Alice--
You're right to make the distinction between the situation
and the FORCE of revenge's burden. Well put. That's kind
of what I meant when I said the truth is helping to strike
Hamlet down.
I don't pick up easily on Hamlet as a 'neurotic young
person with suicidal impulses' because of his wisdom... he
sounds to me at least as wise as Jesus or Mohammed or
Plato or Emerson etc., So the youthful element slips by
me; I'm not used to that level of verbal/intellectual
resource from the young. I suppose that element is
there... but I tend to compare Hamlet more to artists in
crisis like Strindberg and Hart Crane and Nietzsche rather
than to teenagers prodding the big black marble of death
around with mental fingers for the first time to see how it
feels.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (151 of 156), Read 27 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:40 AM
How does Hamlet compare to Marcus Aurelius? Alice mentioned
that "to be or not to be" seemed non-christian and it occured to
me that it could be an inqiry into stoicism. The Meditations of
Marcus Aurelius provide a fascinating picture of a would-be Stoic
sage at work on himself. The book, also called "To Himself," is
the emperor’s diary. In it, he not only reminds himself of the
content of important Stoic teaching but also reproaches himself
when he realises that he has failed to incorporate this teaching
into his life in some particular instance. Would Hamlet then be
the opposite of M.A., whereas M.A. reproaches himself for
non-Stoic behaviour, Hamlet reproaches himself for Stoic
behaviour?
Alice, I was thinking of the tangibility of the ghost in terms of the
gods appearing to humans to provide help or mischief but I think
that the Furies is an even better example.
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (152 of 156), Read 20 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Thursday, November 29, 2001 07:54 PM
Wow, it never fails to amaze me what a demanding read this
one is...just keeping up with the ideas that are brought to
reading this story by others is a challenge!
I have really enjoyed the posts here...
I feel that I have always read this without a doubt to the honour
of Hamlets thoughts and...I have always disliked Cladius and
Gertrude from the get go...for me the betrayal of Cladius to his
brother and to his king has always put Hamlet into my favour.
I have no questions or doubts of Hamlets character...I feel he is
absolutely right to feel offense and bitterness at the actions of
Claudius...I also agree with George, and I see that right away
once Hamlet sees the truth of history, he knows he is ona
trajectory to death. I sometimes see this as an "end of
childhood" story or a "coming of age" story....even though it
seems obvious that Hamlet is not a child but a man. He is
protected by his society...school has kept him protected from
the reality of war, revenge and hate and ambition.
I am not so sure I see Hamlet as at issue by ambition. But
Dean, I have appreciated your dedication to this argument and
vision...it does make for an interesting take on this classic. You
worked hard here, and I did enjoy these avenues you followed.
For me though the story continues to be about seeing the world
for what it is...seeing humans as locked in history and that we
seem to not be able to find a way out of the battles of previous
genenrations...
I love him...I love Hamlet...he is all that I see as the greatest
about humans. I do not like how he treated Ophelia...but just as
I feel angry at Hamlet for being a cad..there he is stricken by
the reality of loss over Ophelia...he has yet another
transformation within the play...as a lover...as broken hearted
as now seeing how he should have behaved with his love. I think
there is much in the play to support the fact that Hamlet and
Ophelia were in love and had happy times.
Sometimes I find myself thinking about the idea that we don't
often prepare our kids for disillusion...I think we think it won't
happen to them, we can protect them...I see Hamlet as a story
much like Sidhartha...a young man sees through the protection
of his parents and sees reality and then what does one do with
history and truth.
Well I repeat myself, sorry.
I watched Hamlet version starring Ethan Hawke the other day. It
was a little slow but you know what, I really liked it. I thought it
was cool that it was set today...and in Manhattan. The set
direction, the miseenscene was incredible. Casting very good.
Bill Murrary believe it or not was Polonius. Kristen Dunst,
Ophelia, the great underrated Diana Verona was Gertrude, Kyle
McLaughlin was Claudius and Sam Sheppard was the ghost.
There were scenes in video strores with action films on in the
background like The Crow(a revenge goth movie) and Hamlet
wandered in the action section of the vidseo store. There is no
"to be or not to be" or really it is skimmed over...and he talks to
himself on video and plays it back, which I thought was a good
idea for the kind of self examination he goes through. The
architecture was awesome in this movie and Hawke made a
beautiful Hamlet.
All in all, I feel as sad today reading these comments and
re-reading Hamlet as I did the very first time I ever read this
play...I can not believe that this story never seems to stop
challenging me and I feel about the burden of history and how
well this story deals with this kind of burden...
I love all of you for taking so much time to discuss this, you
really are all special people!!!
love and peace and kisses
Candy
An important scientific innovation rarely makes it's way by
gradually winning over and converting it's opponents...What
does happen is that it's opponents gradually die out and that the
growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the
beginning. Max Planck
Topic:
November: Hamlet (153 of 156), Read 18 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Dean Denis dddenis@telus.net
Date:
Friday, November 30, 2001 11:01 AM
Thanks, Candy.
In general, I agree with you but I have a hard time accepting
Hamlet as a heroic figure given his treatment of R&G. How do
we reconcile Hamlet the hero and Hamlet the killer of R&G?
Dean.
All roads lead to roam.
Topic:
November: Hamlet (154 of 156), Read 18 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Friday, November 30, 2001 11:45 AM
Gee, call me crazy but weren't R and G sneaky friends who
betray Hamlet? Who are pawns and believers in the very system
and history that Hamlet is reeling from? There are very few
characters I like whatsoever in this story, Dean. The only ones
are in fact...Ophelia, Hamlet and Horc.(can't spell it sorry)
The rest all seem like cheaters and self serving and supportive
of a universe where being a good guy is almost impossible.
Hamlet makes a lot of mistakes. He does. It's unbearable how
he hurts Ophelia with the truth about women...and how men see
them. I believe it is that reality that it doesn't matter how
intelligent or kind women are...men only care about our looks
and we might as well marry for shallow reasons. These are
harsh truths for anyone, but especially a woman to hear form
her lover. I think we have a few reasons to believe that Hamlet
made love to Ophelia. In Branaughs version, there is a sex
scene. And both Mel Gibson and Brannaugh's interpretation of
grief after Ophelia's death...shows men who have completely
realized they didn't know what they had till it was gone.
Incredible heartwrenching scenes.
The younger generation in this play are the societies only
hope...but there doesn't seem to be any way for them to deal
with the truth when they hear it. Dean, no matter how you look
at it Claudius was a prick and a cheat. There's no way around it.
Although it has been a tradition for a brother to marry his dead
brothers wife(I believe this happens often in various cultures) it
was too soon after Hamlet Sr died. These "adults" are
disgusting. The reason we know much of what Hamlet wrote to
Ophelia is because her own father reads them aloud!!!!
The world is a sham and nightmare in Hamlet.
How do we think Hamlet could have dealt with history
differently? If we could answer that, we could deal with our own
burdens of history today...and the reality that our culture does
not show us how to deal with history...it might be impossible to
be real and honest and kind in our culture as it is...I believe that
is a major issue in Hamlet.
Candy
An important scientific innovation rarely makes it's way by
gradually winning over and converting it's opponents...What
does happen is that it's opponents gradually die out and that the
growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the
beginning. Max Planck
Topic:
November: Hamlet (155 of 156), Read 17 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Ann Davey davey@tconl.com
Date:
Friday, November 30, 2001 02:26 PM
Candy,
Of course you are right that Hamlet treats Ophelia shabbily, but
don't you think she also treated him badly? She completely cut
him out of her life just when he needed her most.
I don't think the fault is all Hamlet's.
Ann
Topic:
November: Hamlet (156 of 156), Read 16 times
Conf:
Classics Corner
From:
Candy Minx candyminx@hotmail.com
Date:
Friday, November 30, 2001 03:05 PM
I agree. I think it was very wrong for her to go to him and let
her elders listen in on their conversation.
In the Ethan Hawke version...Ophelia is wearing a wire put there
by her father and Hamlets mother. He is totally appalled when
he catches her wearing this wire. And hurt.
Still...I tend to look at elders in literature as the ones who set
the tone of the world...it was wrong for Ophelia to treat Hamlet
badly, and to shun him, and to allow the elders to spy on their
meeting...but she was following their orders. In many ways, that
is exactly what we would call a good offspring, one who respects
their elders orders, and advice. It was the advice she followed of
the elders that made her betray Hamlet.
On the one hand we are frustrated at Hamlet being
rebellous...and then we are judging Ophelia for following the
advice and guidance of elders.
Again, this action supports my feeling that it is impossible to be
kind and loving in the society and world of Hamlet. It's a terrible
maze of lies and murder and cheating.
How should Hamlet have acted?
love and peace
Candy
An important scientific innovation rarely makes it's way by
gradually winning over and converting it's opponents...What
does happen is that it's opponents gradually die out and that the
growing generation is familiarized with the idea from the
beginning. Max Planck
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