From the book jacket:
This is the saga of Beowulf told from Grendel's point of view. This book is both hilarious as well as strikingly thought-provoking. This book would make an excellent accompaniment to Seamus Heaney's wonderful translation of Beowulf, which is being discussed in Classics Corner beginning July 1st.
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (1 of 6), Read 8 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 11:53 AM
Well, it is the 15th. Gardner's Grendel is a retelling of the
Beowulf poem from the perspective of Beowulf's first
adversary. It is a heady mixture of dark humor and grim
philosophy with dazzling dollops of wordplay. More
importantly, it is a very short work that shouldn't take up
more than two days reading from anyone. Go grab a copy,
we'll wait.
One thing I always enjoyed about this novel is that while
Gardner employs quite a bit of humor, he does not belittle
the characters from Beowulf. It would have been a cheap
shot to portray a big, boasting Beowulf. Instead, we have a
figure cut straight from the epic entering this novel, a Sergio
Leone figure arriving to set things right quietly and
inexorably.
In fact, Gardner fleshes out many of the persons of the
Beowulf poem, so that the figures of Unferth, Wealtheow,
and Hroghtar become real, believable. Also, the setting is
amazing, giving one a sense of the grittiness of existence in
the time of Beowulf.
Of course, the most interesting aspect of this novel is
Grendel himself. Grendel with his love/hate affair with
poetry, femininity, and heroism. His narrative is engrossing
and enlightening. Are we all machines running on lust and
passion, as he maintains?
"Poor Grendel's had an accident," I whisper. "So may you
all."
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (2 of 6), Read 10 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 11:56 AM
I read this 2 or 3 years ago and as it was short, and I
enjoyed it, was planning on a reread. But I forgot to throw
it in the bookbag, and consequently am stranded in the
mountains without it. Damn, I wish the particulars hadn't
faded to a mush.
Ruth
"We are each of us like our little blue planet, hung in black
space, upheld by nothing but our mutual reassurances, our
loving lies." John Updike
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (3 of 6), Read 6 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 12:10 PM
Ruth-
If it's your "mush," I want to hear what you have to say.
And since I have yet to start this book, I'd better sign off
and start reading.
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (4 of 6), Read 7 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 12:13 PM
Dan and Ruth, i am looking forward to
this.
How do you feel it "compares" to Beowulf,
and do you think one should have read
Beowulf in order to read Grendal?
My friend here is reading my copy before
me and he hasn't read Beowulf...dam, I
thought Beowulf would have kept him
busy before he grabbed the next book on
my list!
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them"
Utah Philips
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (5 of 6), Read 5 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 12:27 PM
I've only read part of Beowulf, and that was in 1954 when it
was forced down my throat in English Lit. The experience
put me off it forever, which is why I didn't read it with CC
this time. However, I still enjoyed Grendel. Perhaps it might
even be reasonable to read Grendel first, as it's a modern
book, and more accessible in form and style.
Ruth
"We are each of us like our little blue planet, hung in black
space, upheld by nothing but our mutual reassurances, our
loving lies." John Updike
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (6 of 6), Read 3 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 01:29 PM
Ruth -- i kind of had a yes and then maybe, no reaction to
your idea that Grendel as a modern book should be read
ahead of tackling Beowulf.. I found myself so tempted to do
just that cause I started out reading them together -- but
then I went with Beowulf and that was a disaster -- I came
out of that first time whining by head off -- then went at it
again and thanks to CC folks started liking that epic before I
ran back and started Grendel again -- loved that old
monster just as much as I'd anticipated and like Dan -- feel
it adds and expands and somehow "grows" the characters
of the epic.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (7 of 37), Read 49 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 03:00 PM
Dan,
I started Grendel last night.
Ann
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (8 of 37), Read 47 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 03:44 PM
I didn't say should, Dottie, I was just positing the idea that it
might be reasonable. As I remember, it's never unclear
what's goin on in Grendel, which might be a good basis for
understanding the story in Beowulf. Just an idea.
Ruth
"We are each of us like our little blue planet, hung in black
space, upheld by nothing but our mutual reassurances, our
loving lies." John Updike
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (9 of 37), Read 47 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 04:57 PM
I'm only half way through, but I think B. should be read first.
It is a straightforward story, with straightforward lessons. I
think knowing that story and those lessons have helped me
appreciate G. better.
For me, there is more subtlety and showing the
reader/listener in G. than in B.
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (10 of 37), Read 48 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 05:15 PM
I say again, WOW! What a thought-provoking novel Gardner
has created in his Grendel.
Imagine, if you will, that your father is away as a lay
preacher, and that you are a 12 year old boy driving a
cultipacker (a huge, 2-ton earth-flattening machine used to
smooth plowed fields to prepare them for planting) on your
family's farm in the soybean and cornfield country of
Carbondale, Illinois. Your 4-year-old sister is sitting on your
lap and your 7-year-old brother is standing on the drawbar
between the tractor and the earth-flattener. Suddenly, the
tractor runs out of gas, lurches forward, and dumps your
brother in front of the monstrous oncoming earth-flattener.
It rolls over his head, spilling his brains and blood on the
darkening earth, killing him.
That he killed his brother must have haunted Gardner all his
life. (His first wife, Joan, recalls him waking up screaming
from bad dreams.) In his GRENDEL, knowing this
biographical detail, how much more poignant the plight of
the monster becomes, and how the "accident theme"
becomes even more significant. Gardner was not the kind of
writer who wrote "confessional" tales of the type popular
today, he used his experiences and genius to tell a tale in a
far more creative and masterful way. We do not need to
know this biographical information to appreciate GRENDEL,
but it certainly augmented the tale for me. What a horrible
experience for Gardner to suffer at such an early age -- but
it is the stuff of which masterpieces are born, and I thnk
GRENDEL is a masterpiece. Gardner, btw, died in a motorcyle
accident. He also had been treated for colon cancer.
I felt much sympathy for Grendel. How could we not
sympathize with him, his plight, and the "accident" of his
death? The way Gardner tells Beowulf from the monster's
viewpoint is a hard-won stroke of genius. The cynicism that
pervades his novel is completely understandable, but ART
transforms, Gardner seems to be saying. Only The Shaper's
"song" relieves Grendel's gloomy world-view. "Song" is the
only thing that seems of a higher level in this brutish world.
Poetry as "song" is the only thing that almost "humanizes"
Grendel. How sad that when emotionally moved by the
songs, he reaches out to the hypocritical humans in
friendship but is rejected. Fat chance for friendship among
these human monsters!
I have not read a more gripping book in a long time. The
horrible images of his mother (and her pathetic, blindly
instinctive words, "Do-ol, Do-ol"), the desolate landscape,
his only companion his own shadow, the humans all
compared to animals. Furthermore, it made the original tale,
as written by Heaney, more understandable…Gardner
remains fairly faithful to the original.
Outcast, indeed, and the best among them in contemporary
literature, I say!
But there were times when I just had to roar with perverse
laughter, for instance, when Grendel yelled out:
"Bastards," I roared, "Sons of Bitches! Fuckers!" Words I
picked up from men in their rages."
I'm waiting for the musical! Why not? Why not?! Who wants
to cast it? Can't you just imagine the stage settings with
those ugly wooden gods? Those wriggling firesnakes as
footlights?
Bonnie
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (11 of 37), Read 47 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 06:29 PM
Bonnie: Thanks for the bio on Gardner. I know next to
nothing about him.
On the which should be read first question, I would have to
side with Beowulf, since this is a novel in response to an
earlier work. Sure you can "get it," but you miss some of its
real charm. By reading Grendel, I find you come to a better
understanding of Beowulf.
Grendel is practically a reader's guide to Beowulf, much like
Michael Cunningham's The Hours helped guide a reader into
Woolf's Mrs. Dalloway. Here, Gardner shows considerable
insight into the aspects of the Beowulf poem that many
readers would dismiss as tangential to the main
action--especially the recurring bits about other battles and
betrayal. With Grendel's jaded point of view, these aspects
of the poem are thrown in a new light and the
transformative power of art (how the Shaper makes things
true) is emphasized.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (12 of 37), Read 45 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 08:26 PM
I think that I read parts of Beowulf in high school, but I am
not sure. I read GRENDEL and was very confused. Then I
read the synopsis of BEOWULF in Classics Corner, and that
helped a lot. I found it interesting that Grendel never
mentions the name "Beowulf" and that Beowulf doesn't
come into the story until the very end.
Bonnie,
I really enjoyed your note. I grew up in farm country and
remember those terrible farm accidents.
My paperback edition has some interesting line drawings at
the beginning of each chapter. It seems that Grendel must
have drawn these himself, because they are quite crude.
At one point, it is stated that Unferth has killed his brother.
This is after the scene where Unferth attempts to die as a
hero in Grendel's cave. Either I missed it or it wasn't
explained in this novel, but when did Unferth kill his brother?
In BEOWULF, did he kill his brother, or is this just a reflection
of Gardner's past?
Jane
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (13 of 37), Read 45 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 09:01 PM
Thanks for the bio info on Gardner, Bonnie. Very interesting.
I've read NICKEL MOUNTAIN and OCTOBER LIGHT, but they
didn't prepare me for GRENDEL. Quite a little book.
Ruth
"Nobody belongs to us, except in memory." John Updike
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (14 of 37), Read 44 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 10:46 PM
Jane-
I remember the bard in Beowulf singing about a man who
had accidentally killed his brother. I think it's towards the
beginning. I'll have to check.
All-
I enjoyed the ways Gardner tied B., Hrothgar, the dragon,
and G together. Some that came to mind while reading
were:
H. and G. are attempting to create order in their lives
through words and deeds. They solace themselves with
poetry and song. It's a common ground, but H. never sees
it. G.'s ways and language are too foreign.
Misunderstanding occurs, and a lifetime of enmity ensues.
Each enjoys his personal fame, and G. sees his purpose in
being H.'s foil. One cannot exist without the other. Each
defines the other's purpose.
Like B. later on, G. senses his own death, and embraces it
by giving his all first. He realizes the end to his sense of
emptiness is only a leap away, but though he welcomes it,
he's reluctant to die and give up his quest for meaning and
order.
The whole business with the dragon was fascinating to me.
Like G., the dragon wanted something that humans had - in
his case, gold and treasure. I think that though the dragon
had an all seeing eye, and had a superior knowledge of
exactly how things go, he was still envious of Man. He was
frustrated with Man's incredible foibles and self delusions.
Yet he could not begin to understand why Man insisted on
living in the moment and making the best of it, whether
through honor, revenge, love, poetry, or song. The dragon
resented the whole idea of faith in a higher being, yet I
think he was jealous of that faith at the same time. What
better way to show envy than to deride that which is
envied?
Also, I was intrigued with the realization that the dragon
exacts revenge on G. through B. and later on, the dragon
takes B.'s life as well. That means something, but I haven't
puzzled it out yet. I think it has to do with Man's and G.'s
inability to see the whole picture. G. is part human, and is
thus restricted from all seeing knowledge.
Both G. and the dragon were enraged that Man was able to
delude himself into thinking the moment is what counts.
Somehow, they each seemed jealous of that attempt to
make sense of the world through beauty, poetry, honor, and
revenge. Though he may have suspected it, Man refused to
see that all is hopeless and the world is without a true light.
The continual references to the sun by G. had to do with his
resentment of Man's ability to seek the light in life. Seeking
the light is what gave Man purpose.
I had to wonder if the dragon and G.'s insistence on the
meaninglessness of life had to do with the fact that each
was separated from God's irrational creation and pattern of
nature. Since they couldn't have what Man did, they were
enraged and jealous. G. certainly wanted acceptance and
companionship. He was denied merely on the basis of his
ancestor's killing of his brother. Perhaps that's why G. is so
put out with Unferth's own fratricide. It reminds G. of the
unfairness of making him pay for the sins of his forefathers.
There's more I want to say, but I've got to get to bed. See
y'all tomorrow.
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (15 of 37), Read 38 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 11:04 PM
I agree, read Beowulf first, then Grendel, and then back to
Beowulf…everything then becomes a lot clearer, and I found
I appreciated the original (well, Heaney's tr.) a lot more.
Jane, I hadn't noticed that Grendel never mentioned the
name of Beowulf…good point. I guess I just assumed he
was the one Grendel knew would be his undoing. If we
hadn't read Beowulf first, knowing that Beowulf was
Grendel's nemesis, would it have mattered that Gardner
doesn't "name" him…or is the fact that names/words
become so important (to Grendel) a device on the author's
part? I dunno, it's possible.
Also, that's a great point about Grendel making the
drawings…I hadn't thought of that either…G. struggled to
make form out of chaos - when he asked his mom questions
to try to understand things, she said "Don't ask." Those
drawings seem to be born of chaos trying to make some
order, or some sense, in pictures don't they? G. reminds me
of a lad who tried to start out good, but he was thwarted by
lack of nurturing, etc. Not so different from the psychological
profiles of some of our worst modern day criminals.
I think Gardner, being true to the original tale, had to end
his tale where it did because G.'s death is the end of his
consciousness - so no more about Beowulf, nor his death
and funeral.
My son promises to return my Heaney text tomorrow so I
can't cite the place in Heaney, but in the prose translation of
Beowulf, by E. Talbot Donaldson, after Unferth chides him
about the swimming match, et al, Beowulf begins: "Well, my
friend Unferth, drunk with beer, you have spoken a great
many things about Breca……I have not heard say of you any
such hard matching of might, such sword-terror. …though
you became your brother's slayer, your close kin; for that
you will suffer punishment in hell….
Does anyone have an idea what the bear on a tether
significes in Grendel? He appears several times.
Ruth, do you recommend Nickel Mountain and October Light?
I'd like to read a lot more by Gardner. He got a lot of criticism
for his book ON MORAL FICTION, lambasting some of authors
of the free-wheeling 70's, Vonnegot for one, for creating
characters that have no "dignity." Is Grendel a dignified
monster?
And back to you, Jane…I grew up on a farm…and maybe
that's why the accident Gardner's brother had made such an
impression on me. A farmer who lived near us was gored to
death by a bull in his own pasture. That scene with the bull
got to me too in Grendel. How many farmers I knew that
suffered loss of limb, or fingers.
I read somewhere that each of the twelve chapters in
Grendel represents a month of the year…from spring to
spring, I think. Chapter one begins in spring with the Ram. I
haven't pursued this, but each chapter represents a sign of
the Zodiac, supposedly. Anyone have an Old Farmer's
Almanac handy?
Bonnie
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (16 of 37), Read 37 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, July 15, 2001 11:14 PM
Interesting, Bonnie. I hadn't caught the fact that there were
12 chapters. G. is so enraged during the springtime.
What is the significance of the William Blake verse?
"And if the Babe is born a Boy
He's given to a Woman Old,
Who nails him down upon a rock,
Catches his shrieks in cups of gold"?
Does it have to do with G.'s shreiks of rage and injustice, in
contrast to H.'s and B.'s compilation of wealth and treasure?
Now I really am heading for bed. :-)
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (17 of 37), Read 36 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 12:35 AM
Didn't Unferth kill his bro by accident (a misdirected arrow -
maybe one of those Freudian slips, eh?) And everyone was
flummoxed about what to do, since it was Unferth the killer's
right to claim the life or blood price penalty. Or was that
another character. This must have really resonated for
Gardner.
Bon, I read Nickel Mountain a few years ago. I liked it okay.
It remember thinking Gardner sure had read his Faulkner -
not due to a similarity in writing style, I can't put my finger
on it at the moment. I think there is a movie of Nickel
Mountain as well.
Theresa
Concept trumps reality. Every damn time.
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (18 of 37), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 02:47 AM
Bonnie, I remember I rather liked Nickel Mountain, but was
not as taken with October Light.
Ruth
"Nobody belongs to us, except in memory." John Updike
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (19 of 37), Read 41 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 05:26 AM
Actually didn't Grendel in his musings even refer to the 12
months and 12 chapters connection however vaguely it may
have been worded?
Ruth -- I didn't mean that should in there to mean SHOULD
but I also DO know better than to use that loaded word
when speaking of anything here or in other discussion -- my
apologies for that one.
I still hold that Beowulf is best approached before the more
diffused thinking of Grendel is assimilated. I enjoyed
Grendel's -- to me -- very "human" musings on all manner of
topics relative to the men with which his war is being waged
as well as his thoughts on why he cares or why these things
even matter to him (to Grendel).
I also liked that old Beowulf is pretty much only a cifer in the
entire period of this struggle and that it is reasonable that
the expansion ends there -- Grendel meets with his own
accident courtesy of Beowulf or not? I wonder how Grendel
might have analyzed this turn of events beyond what he
had time for before drawing his last breath here.
Reasoning? Differentiations between man and beast, beast
and animal, good and evil, God and man. Black and white
and all that glorious gray. Does humanity -- human-ness or
humaneness -- reside in the gray? I will have to read both of
these again -- and again and again and start friends reading
them so I can hear fresh takes from first time encounters.
Sounds almost diabolical doesn't it?
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (20 of 37), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 06:54 AM
Bonnie:
The bit about the zodiac hit me right in the face, since the
previous owner of my copy of Grendel put the appropriate
sign above each chapter:
1 Aries (Ram)
2 Taurus (Bull)
3 Gemini (Twins)
4 Cancer (Crab)
5 Leo (Lion)
6 Virgo (Virgin)
7 Libra (Balance)
8 Scorpio (Scorpion)
9 Sagittarius (Archer)
10 Capricorn (Goat)
11 Aquarius (Water Bearer)
12 Pisces (Fishes)
Each of the chapters mentions, at least in passing, the
appropriate symbol; for instance, the incident with the bull is
in chapter 2. The only exception to this was chapter five
which featured the dragon rather than a lion; the only
reference that I could find there was to some vague physical
descriptions like "his taloned paw".
This must mean something, but I can't put my finger on it. Is
it a contrast between old and new world views? Does it
simply help create the atmosphere of the time, the ways in
which people thought of and perceived the world? Is it
indigenous religion vs. Christianity? Is it simply a false
herring so Gardner can sit around laughing while we ponder
its significance?
Note the strange sentence near the end of chapter 10:
"Beware the fish." Sure enough, the Pisces chapter does
Grendel in. But I was also reminded of the use of a fish as a
symbol of Christianity.
David
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (21 of 37), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 06:56 AM
Just did a quick reread and edit on this and realized that
maybe the last paragraph was coming from the Coetzee slim
little volume title The Lives of the Animals which I have
consumed since last evening. As I read through this I found
myself thinking of Beowulf and Grendel and other recent CR
talk -- it seemed to fit right into the chinks! I would definitely
recommend it to all who have been enjoying the latest
books on the list and the other lengthier discussions into
which this group has lately wandered.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (22 of 37), Read 43 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 07:19 AM
Bonnie & David; I never noticed the Zodiac connection,
either, but it is rather interesting. However, I noticed
Grendel is obsessed on comparing things to a crab from the
very beginning. He does it several times in odd enough
metaphors so that the reader cannot help but notice them.
Jane: Everything Beowulf says or does in this epic is taken
straight from the original. In fact, Gardner is as good at
translating Beowulf in some respects as Heaney.
Take the Unferth scene. First, a segment of Beowulf's words
from Heaney's version:
Beowulf, Ecgtheow's son, replied:
"Well, friend Unferth, you have had your say
about Breca and me. But it was mostly beer
that was doing the talking...
Now I cannot recall any fight you entered Unferth,
that bears comparison. I don't boast when I say
that neither you nor Breca were ever much
celebrated for swoardsmanship
or for facing danger on the field of battle.
You killed your own kith and kin,
so for all your cleverness and quick tongue,
you will suffer damnation in the depths of hell.
The fact is, Unferth, if you were truly
as keen or courageous as you claim to be
Grendel would never have got away with
such unchecked atrocity, attacks on your king,
havoc in Heorot and horrors everywhere.
And the relevant scene in Gardner:
When the hall was still, he spoke, soft-voiced, his weird
gaze focused nowhere. "Ah, friend Unferth, drunk with mead
you've said a good deal about Breca...Neither Breca nor you
ever fought such battles," he said. "I don't boast much of
that. Nevertheless, I don't recall hearing any glorious deeds
of yours, except that you murdered your brothers. You'll
prowl the stalagmites of hell for that, friend Unferth--clever
though you are."
The final taunt of Beowulf in the original is missing in
Gardner. But it is fascinating that the Beowulf who inhabits
Gardner's novel is indeed the Beowulf of the original poem.
But wait a second--there is one part where Beowulf steps
out of his epic persona: When he whispers to Grendel
during the arm sans arm combat. It's where Beowulf begins
to sound like the dragon in his philosophy and such, forcing
Grendel to acknowledge that there is a solid reality outside
the self by bashing his head into a wall.
And, in passing, we are never told how or why Unferth killed
his kin; the accident with the arrow was Hygelac's
(Beowulf's thane) older brother Heathcyn.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (23 of 37), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 07:42 AM
Many of the Zodiac reference flitted lightly through while I
was reading this also but I see a more direct connection
possibly from your delineation of it David. I especially am
going to be thinking of the fish and your idea of the
connection with the symbol of Christianity -- more especially
early Christianity -- and perhaps interestingly to much of
today's fundamentalist Christianity.
Dottie -- still wondering about the gray areas. Beowulf and
Grendel seem set in a period of more clearly defined black
and white time in many ways -- whereas time passing and
layers of history seem to have added many shades of gray.
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (24 of 37), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 07:57 AM
Gardner makes a great deal of using words and
whisperings. Grendel describes them as "Talking, talking,
spinning a skin, a skin...."
He theorizes that thinking creatures use words to try to
make sense and meaning of their lives. They use words to
counteract "...the meaningless objectness of the world, the
universal bruteness." Creatures that simply exist create
their happiness by "....see(ing) all life without observing it."
When G. is moving through the mead hall for the last time,
gobbling up numerous thanes, he reaches for a clean
napkin. As he does so, he comments, "...(whispering,
whispering, chewing the universe down to words)."
B. kills G. and whispers the dragon's lesson to Grendel the
whole time. It's our attempt to make sense of the world that
ultimately kills us. Even with language, we cannot seem to
come to terms with anomalies that cross our paths. We use
words to weave a skin of meaning. G. and B. used thought
and words to create an enmity that gave meaning to their
lives.
************
Though G. does not mention Beowulf by name, he does say,
"Cut B." at the end of chapter 7. His comment comes
immediately after G. contemplates suicide after letting the
queen live.
"Balance is everything, sliding down slime.
"Cut B."
I think G. meant "cut B. instead of killing myself."
***********
There is so much in this book that my mind is reeling. Wow!
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (25 of 37), Read 30 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 09:04 AM
Wow -- Kay -- spinning words trying to obtain meaning
trying to weave a skin -- thin skinned humans (with no fur
for protection no thick hides -- hence the armor, clothing etc)
-- words as worthless to know what cannot be known -- to
connect to the creation/creator which animals are NOT
disconnected from in the first place? Hmmm? You are
certainly correct about this book being thought provoking.
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (26 of 37), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Marcy Vaughan (vaughan@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 09:33 AM
I’m new to the group, but I’m really glad I got here in time to
participate in the discussion on Grendel. What a wonderful
book!
I did not realize that each chapter represents a sign of the
Zodiac, and I’ve been thinking about what Gardner was
trying to convey. I think it’s tied to what he’s trying to get
across with the epigraph (the poem “The Mental Traveler”) I
looked up the poem in its entirety on the internet, and I’m
sure I don’t completely understand it, but what I got out of
it is that it too presents a cycle. Throughout the cycle,
however, opportunities for escape abound, and it seems
that the torture of the babe by the old woman might be
avoidable.
The entire poem presents itself in a series of glimpsed,
missed opportunities. Imagination at any point might find
freedom from the cyclical trap.
The same is true for Grendel. At the beginning of the book
we learn that Grendel feels caught in a meaningless,
endless pattern: "So it goes with me day by day and age by
age. . . . Locked in the deadly progression of moon and
stars" (8) – the cycle of astrology. But Grendel had not
always been the “wrecker of mead halls;” early in life he
was unsure about what the world held for him and
wondered at his own existence. If the Shaper did not die – if
Grendel was able to follow through with allowing
Wealtheow to “tease” him “toward disbelief in the dragon’s
truths”(108) – Grendel would have been able to break out
of his meaningless cycle if not for these missed opportunities
and his limited imagination.
-Marcy
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (27 of 37), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 09:38 AM
Welcome Marcy!! Nice to know ya!
Dottie and Kay oh how the plot thickens.
I am not sure I think the words have made things
meaningless, although there are some who say once
something is spoken, it loses its power or preciousness. But
I am thinking about all these posts, and this book, and I am
a little over whelmed for much coontribution yet...
I guess I want to be careful to qualify "words" versus
"stories"...
in a bit...
Candy
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (28 of 37), Read 33 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 09:49 AM
Marcy - welcome, welcome -- as the Irish would say ' a
thousand welcomes' you cannot know how fortunate that
though I am NOT supposed to be on here right at this
moment and am having my tea while browsing that I did
NOT spew tea into the keyboard when you tied the
ep[igraph into Grendel -- I KNEW I'd seen those lines and
heard those words and thought of those ideas from
somewhere -- CANDY -- DAN -- THE MENTAL TRAVELER -- CR
discussions have come full CYCLE -- speaking of cycles and
epiphanies and connections.
Marcy -- The Mental Traveler was the first I believe or at
least nearly the first poem we attacked in our most recently
established Constant Reader conference -- POETRY -- and
such a discussion as that one did engender here -- nearly
lead us to fisticuffs at points. Now you let us realize that TMT
is part and parcel of the story which Gardner is having
Grendel tell us (the reader).
I'm going to see if I can resurrect The Mental Traveler and
reread it along with a reread of Grendel before I head back
to Beowulf. I think I'm getting i over my head after all my
initial complaining about Beowulf but I am thoroughly
intrigued with this whole tale at this point and enjoying
looking at it all from Grendel's viewpoint!
Dottie -- wondering what other revelations will be made
while I'm gone next week playing Don Quixote in Cervantes
birthplace
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (29 of 37), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 09:36 AM
Dottie-
I just realized that there is an analogy of spiders spinning
webs throughout the book. G. is comparing those webs to
the ones we weave when we try to make sense of the
moment. Our moments in time are meaningless, but when it
comes down to it, they are all we have. We use words and
thought to catch wisps of significance as they drift by us. In
the grand scheme of things, they are worthless. But, like the
Shaper, they provide purpose and respite from the rigors of
existence.
This accounts for the Dragon's disdain and simultaneous
envy of Man, I think. He sees all, and understands the
unimportance of Man in the "coffin of time," as G. calls it. Yet
he has a secret admiration of our attempt to make the best
of our situation. We want to observe, not just see the
world, as so many creatures do.
This attitude might go a long way in explaining the dragon's
and G.'s disdain of "blind faith," as they call it. Faith is
useless in the long term scheme of things? Perhaps, they
say, yet Man clings to a belief in (a) higher being(s) as a
means of sustenance and hope. The dragon and G. refuse
to use that crutch, but their lives feel empty as a result. I
think they would like to find some meaning in their lives.
Like words and thought, religion is a way to make sense of
things, or to deal with the nonsensical ways of the world.
The dragon and G. decide not to use belief as a means of
coping, and it makes them angry that some humans find
comfort in something as silly as a belief in a god. They
realize they are denied comfort as a result of their refusal to
deny logic and refusal to make the leap.
G. cannot make the leap to faith. He keeps waiting for the
gods to come get him, and he makes cynical, but amusing,
comments on the fact that they never appear. Yet, I think he
would like to step out of his separation from God and into
God's grace. His ancestry is human, and he is pulled to that
part of his psyche.
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (30 of 37), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 09:40 AM
Oh brother Kay, is your last post here ever relevant to a
discussion in poetry!!! Thank you!!!for the
inspiration....great variety and themes in this so far...WOW!
"If elections worked we'd outlaw them" Utah Philips
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (31 of 37), Read 31 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 09:45 AM
No, Candy. I did not say that words are meaningless. I said
that they are the only way we can attempt to make sense of
a meaningless world.
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (32 of 37), Read 21 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 10:06 AM
On 7/16/01 9:45:25 AM, Kay Dugan wrote:
>No, Candy. I did not say that
>words are meaningless. I said
>that they are the only way we
>can attempt to make sense of a
>meaningless world.
>
>K
>
Okay -- -- back to that thought then, Kay, words are humans
attempt to explain things -- all knowledge then from human
reason might also be included as since the beginning of
written language at least we write it all down -- many times
over -- too many times over maybe? ANYWAY -- God/gods --
GOD's words -- "do not add or subtract we are admonished
-- I for one do not have any problem with physics of Capra's
The Turning Point (see that thread under poetry if need be)
PLUS the Bible including 'blind faith' (which for me is a
perfect description of all animal life -- animals exist by blind
faith if I ever saw anything which existed that way -- they
are HERE and they do what they DO and they reproduce
and they keep going -- and this includes the human animal
-- okay so there's the physics and the religious and then
there's LOGIC (science again -- but also philosophy and
literature) -- I see no contradiction between these areas --
LOGIC won't prove any of the Biblical ideas -- we come back
to faith -- logic won't truly PROVE any of the sciences either
because every step taken and proved new questions arise
-- I firmly believe man is never to find that last answer
without KNOWINGLY throwing himself into his own existence
with the same 'blind faith' a all other species -- everything
requires a leap of faith -- leave all religion aside completely
-- this world STILL requires a leap of faith in some form.
There are scientists out there today saying this and being
scorned or diminished -- but there are still scientists who
may feel likewise but are not speaking out -- no? Just
thinking out loud here.
Still shaking my head over the fact that The Mental Traveler
is tied to Grendel here. And sorry that I got so excited that I
posted my note up there to Marcy out of order.
Dottie -- who MUST be quiet and get things done or she'll
leave for Spain tomorrow with her suitcase in a jumble
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (33 of 37), Read 21 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 10:17 AM
Somebody said something about turtles -- in here? -- or not?
-- and I wanted to add that I LOVED that idea -- turtles are
one of my very serious fascinations in life -- another sense
of connectedness for me, personally, for whatever reason.
Did I dream this about the turtles -- I can't find it up there?
Did someone edit that out for some reason? OR was it
elsewhere?
And -- Kay -- about those webs which are meaningless --
spider webs are some of the strongest fibers in existence by
some measure -- maybe things as apparently ephemeral as
a spider web (maybe something so nebulous as say 'blind
faith' could in fact be the strongest tie for mankind both to
others of his own kind and to all other kinds with which he
shares/ed his planet -- and to the source of all of these?
Okay -- not to preach there but the connection did stirke me
and I wanted to put it out here.
Still wondering where those turtles steering by the stars
went and wondering if I am the only one who read it and
hoping not!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (34 of 37), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 10:27 AM
Why am I not surprised that The Mental Traveller perhaps
one of the most profound poems ever written should raise
its head yet again!!! Ha ha.
Kay, sorry if I mis-quoted you, I am wrestling here with the
various posts, and I LOVED your post. I was trying to exert
emotion into my happy feelings while reading your thoughts
and responding! Sorry if I miscommunicated that. You rock,
girlfriend.
Regarding "world views" and stories and meanings...and a
case for reading Beowulf if one feels like it...and The Mental
Traveller!
Also, for the idea I am always spouting on about that
"stories are all connected" and "stories are built on other
stories". I would say that Gardner with his building of
Grendel from Beowulf has a similar view of stories are all
connected as I do, and he does show this by this very
novel! All books and all poems and all paintings are to me
like "partial theories" heh.
I thought I would inject this quote from
A Brief History of Time:
"Because the partial theories that we already have are
sufficient to make predictions in all but the most extreme
situations, the search for the ultimate theory of the universe
seems difficult to justify on practical grounds.(It is worth
noting, though, that similar arguments could have been
used against both relativity and quantum mechanics, and
these theories have given us both nuclear energy and the
microelectronics revolution!)The discovery of a complete
unified theory, therefore, may not aid the survival of our
species.It may not even affect our life style. But ever since
the dawn of civilization, people have not been content to
see events as unconnected and inexplicable. They have
craved an understanding of the underlying order of the
world. today we still yearn to know why we are here and
where we came from. Humanity's deepest desire for
knowledge is justification enough for our continuing quest.
And our goal is nothing less than a complete description of
the universe we live in."
Candy
"However, if we do discover a complete theory,it should in
time be understandable in broad principle by everyone, not
just a few scientists. Then we shall all,
philosophers,scientists,and just ordinary people, be able to
take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that
we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that, it
would be the ultimate triumph of human reason-for then we
would know the mind of God." Stephen Hawking
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (35 of 37), Read 17 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 10:33 AM
Wow Candy -- you and Kay and now Marcy are going in
awesome directions with this -- and I FOUND those turtles
over in that thread under Poetry -- I've not totally lost it --
YET!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (36 of 37), Read 8 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 12:13 PM
Dottie: I noticed the lines from Mental Traveler, the very
poem that drove a schism into the poetry thread and
probably explains why George isn't around this thread
presently even though it seems quite his cup of tea. I'd
rather not discuss it and I certainly miss the old boy.
But Kay and Marcy: Keep up with the fascinating posts. The
Shaper shows Grendel the power of language to mask the
futility of living
I love Grendel's description of the men's reaction to the
Shaper's initial lay (which is the opening of the Beowulf poem
itself):
When he finished, the hall was quiet as a mound. I too was
silent, my ear pressed tight against the timbers. Even to me,
incredibly, he had made it all seem true and very fine. Now a
little, now more, a great roar began, an exhalation of breath
that swelled to a rumble of voices and then to the howling and
clapping and stomping of men gone mad on art. They would
seize the oceans, the farthest stars, the deepest secret rivers
in Hrothgar's name!
The dragon explains the role of the Shaper in this manner:
That's where the Shaper saves them. Provides an illusion of
reality--puts together all their facts with a gluey whine of
connectedness. Mere tripe, believe me. Mere sleight-of-wits. He
knows no more than they do about total reality--less, if
anything: works with the same old clutter of atoms, the givens
of his time and place and tongue. But he spins it all together
with harp runs and hoots, and they think what they think is
alive, think Heaven loves them.
Within the narrative of Grendel, Gardner creates a god-less
world without any ultimate foundation; with Grendel, what
he sees is what you get. But is language the only thing
between humanity and the abyss? Is language the only
thing that connects our reality and embues it with meaning
and life-affirming hope? If so, is it not sad that we
communicate and write only to distract us from the truth
that there is nothing?
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (37 of 37), Read 7 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 12:23 PM
Dan -- I thought the Dragon when he spoke thus WAS the
voice of GOD -- he is the one who knows all and sees all --
he might be sad and disillusioned with that view and with
men and their need for words to make sense of the world
when HE after all had told them they need only have that
article -- blind faith. And why not? Michael and Lucifer again?
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (38 of 42), Read 21 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 02:24 PM
Dear, Dears! -- I am overwhelmed by the wealth of ideas
you are all presenting...great comments and interpretations!
So much to think about. Alas, my thinker is sore, and I am
awed into inarticulateness! I copied all the posts and will
think some more!
In the meantime, have a great time in Spain, Dottie (or is it
Teresa?! Forgive me if I am wrong!) And Marcy, welcome,
welcome! And David, thanks for the material on the Zodiac,
you saved me a lot of time trying to figure it all out...the fish
as Christian symbol is an interesting idea...and the
circle/cycle of 12 years, 12 months, is relevant in numerology
as well as with Christianity...
Here's a thought though...Gardner turns things upside down
and I vacillate...true, he told the story from Grendel's
viewpoint, but that viewpoint is subjective...and the
sympathy I felt for Grendel now makes me wonder if I am
not shortchanging the poor, struggling humans.
The dragon seems to be expressing a Jean-Paul Sartre
existential philosphy...BUT, isn't it possible that the Dragon
could also be an incarnation of the Devil? He bedevils
Grendel for sure, and he scorches everything with his
breath...hellfire and sulphur pervades the air.
Sorry I am not more lucid...what wonderful posts to read!
Bonnie
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (39 of 42), Read 11 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 05:02 PM
Dottie-
I'm a ramblin' down the Grendel road here, so please bear
with me.
I do not think the spider webs are meaningless. Perhaps
they are meaningless in the grand scheme of things, the
"coffin of time." What I am trying to say is that those webs,
those thoughts and words and leaps of faith, are what give
us a sense of belonging and a sense of order. To us, they
are not meaningless.
I think Gardner has taken the message of Beowulf and
stepped it up a notch. He's not telling us that it is folly to
accumulate fame and fortune. If we haven't figured that out
by now, we truly are hopeless. Just because we tend to
continue to want fame and fortune at times doesn't mean
we haven't figured out it's pointless.
I think Gardner wants us to consider what makes us human.
He wants us to see that Grendel is just as human as the
rest of us. He wants us to understand that we spin webs of
ideas in order to impose order, and that is what separates
us from creatures that merely exist.
Gardner wants us to consider what makes us human, with
all our foibles, our wars, and our misuse of the earth. He
wants us to see that what allows us to be human is our
language. So much is made of the inability to communicate
between Grendel and the Geats. At one point, Unferth? is
stunned to realize that Grendel is speaking. That gives him
pause and he realizes Grendel is a complement to him.
I know the concept is nothing new, but I sure do appreciate
the manner in which Gardner re-writes it. I loved this book.
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (40 of 42), Read 9 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 05:36 PM
Wow, Kay. Beautiful note, beautiful thinking, beautiful clarity.
Ruth
"Nobody belongs to us, except in memory." John Updike
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (41 of 42), Read 7 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 05:40 PM
Dan-
"the power of language to mask the futility of living"
Perfect! Thanks for summing it up for me.
That was a scary thought for me at first. But when I began
to consider it, I reasoned that if language is all we have,
then, dagnabit, that's what I'm going to cling to. If language
and religion and logic give me even a glimpse of order, then
that's what I'll use to muddle through. I'm much too chicken
to take the viewpoint that all is meaningless in the grand
scheme of things. Why bother, then?
Bonnie and Dottie -
I saw the dragon more as a representative of the
underworld, an all knowing creature that had separated
from God. Is it possible that Gardner is saying that part of
what allows humans to feel a bond with a higher power is
the temporary beauty we create through words and logic?
That would help explain the dragon's bitterness and
frustration over the fact that humans find meaning, despite
knowing that all is meaningless in the "coffin of time." He
sees and knows all, yet he cannot find a purpose in his life.
What a hell that would be.
Remember when the old priest thinks Grendel is the
Destroyer? (Did the priest think he was talking to Grendel or
the dragon?)(chapter 9) I'm a little confused over how that
conversation compares/contrasts with all the dragon
presents to Grendel.
"The King of Gods is the ultimate limitation,' he keens, "and
His existence is the ultimate irrationality."
What does the priest mean by, "ultimate limitation?"
"For no reason can be given for just that limitation which it
stands in His nature to impose. The King of the Gods is not
concrete, but He is the ground for concrete actuality. No
reason can be given for the nature of God, because that
nature is the ground of rationality."
HUH? HELP me out, please! I need an explanation.
"The King of the Gods is the actual entity in virtue of which
the entire multiplicity of eternal objects obtains its graded
relevance to each stage of concresence. Apart from Him,
there can be no relevant novelty."
"The Chief God's purpose in the creative advance is the
evocation of novel intensities. He is the lure for our feeling."
Ok. I get all that. I think.
"He is the eternal urge of desire establishing the purposes
of all creatures. He is an infinite patience, a tender care that
nothing in the universe be vain."
Does that mean that God does not want any one of his
creatures to be vain and ignore the connectedness of all?
Dottie and Bonnie - here's why I think the dragon
represents the underworld:
"O the ultimate evil in the temporal world is deeper than any
specific evil, such as hatred, or suffering, or death! The
ultimate evil is that Time is perpetual perishing, and being
actual involves elimination. The nature of evil may be
epitomized, therefore, in two simple but horrible and holy
propositions: 'Things fade' and 'Alternatives exclude."
Is it possible the dragon represents the ultimate evil - Time?
"Ultimate wisdom......lies in the perception that the
solemnity and grandeur of the universe rise through the
slow process of unification in which the diversities of
existence are utilized, and nothing, nothing is lost."
I have to think that in this novel, the evil is that Grendel is
lost.
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (42 of 42), Read 6 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Marcy Vaughan (vaughan@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 05:58 PM
Thanks for the very warm welcome!
With regard to Bonnie’s comment that the Dragon could also
be an incarnation of the Devil, I thought I’d post the
following comment made by Gardner: “As a medievalist, one
knows there are two great dragons in medieval art. There’s
Christ the dragon, and there’s Satan the dragon. There’s
always a war between those two great dragons. In modern
Christian symbolism a sweeter image of Jesus with the
sheep in his arms has evolved, but I like the old image of
the warring dragon. That’s not to say that Beowulf is Christ,
but that he’s Christ-like.” – from The Art of John Gardner by
Per Winther, 172-173.
Dan posed the following question that really got me
thinking: “Within the narrative of Grendel, Gardner creates a
god-less world without any ultimate foundation […] But is
language the only thing between humanity and the abyss?”
It seems like Gardner is saying that it’s the power of
imagination beyond the mere “web” of language that
“stands between humanity and the abyss” - imagination
meaning a more than rational energy by which thought
could seek to heal itself. But does this simply allow us to
“distract” ourselves from the truth that there is nothing?
Gardner said, “The Shaper comes along in a meaningless,
stupid kingdom and makes up a rationale. He creates the
heroism, the feeling of tribal unity. He makes the people
brave. And sure, it’s a lie, but it’s also a vision.” (Sorry, I
didn’t write down the source in my notes.) The discrepancy
between imperfect man as Grendel knows him and the ideal
man that the Shaper sings of is too great for Grendel to deal
with, and he falls into the dragon’s argument that the art
the Shaper presents is just an illusion; he cannot get past
the faults he has seen in man in order to see man’s
potential because he is caught in a trap of “merely rational
thought.” As the fourth priest says, “merely rational thought
leaves the mind incurably crippled in a closed and ossified
system” (p.135). I think Gardner is saying the imagination
does not “distract” us from the truth, but rather allows us to
see the truth. (Hope this made some sense – I’m really still
trying to wrap my brain around the whole question.)
Dottie – What popped into my mind about the dragon was
that he is the god of the existentialists. (And even though
we’ve just “met,” I too wish you a great trip to Spain!)
-Marcy
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (43 of 56), Read 52 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Marcy Vaughan (vaughan@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 06:56 PM
Kay –
The priests of Grendel seem to live on the shifting boundary
between the fading polytheism religion and a rising
Christian monothesim (Hence the old priest’s explanation of
the King of Gods, though the Destroyer he is talking to is a
lower god who he thinks will help destroy Grendel).
He says, "I know all the mysteries...I am the only man still
living who has thought them all out" (130). That mysteries
can be "thought out" suggests that for him, Faith and
Reason do not contradict each other. (Unlike the dragon’s
thinking – where only reason/logic is considered and
therefore leads Grendel to reject the theological world-view
offered by the Shaper.)
Some of Ork's descriptive terms for God ("the ground of
actuality," "the ultimate irrationality") echo certain
Neoplatonic ideas about the transcendent nature of God.
The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy says, "God, the
absolute One, was, according to Plotinus, elevated not only
above all being, but also above all reason and rational
activity."
Hope this helps some.
-Marcy
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (44 of 56), Read 49 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 07:23 PM
WWWOOOWWW!!!!
To all these posts here the last couple of days!!!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (45 of 56), Read 45 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 08:21 PM
What a lot to think about -- I know that overall the dragon
was the evil side of the coin but in a few instances I still
think he's giving us the TRUTH -- that's what led me to say
that in that case back there a ways that it was God's voice.
And I still think the dragon is kind of the duality of
Michael/Lucifer -- the dual nature of humans as well -- good
and evil -- flipsides of the same beings. I will have to
respond to these notes in more detail later.
Thanks for the good wishes -- I just finished packing and am
trying to relax -- 3AM -- the schedule got messier than it
already was but I'm always a mess the night before we
leave -- drive or fly it matters not! I have a couple little spiky
rubbery massage balls to keep my nerves at bay tomorrow
-- hope it works!
Dottie -- thinking of taking Shirley MacLaine on the trip since
the Dutch teacher actually brought up the pilgrimage route
that her book is about!
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (46 of 56), Read 40 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 09:01 PM
Thanks, Marcy. That does clarify the exchange between
Grendel and the old priest. And a belated "Hello." I've been
so keyed up over this book that I forgot my manners.
I don't think faith and reason contradict each other, either.
There is room for all contradictions in this universe. Humans
have at least learned that, I think.
Thanks, also for the clarification of who the Defender was. I
thought for a while that he knew he was talking to Grendel
or the dragon, but the priest was too unafraid for that.
Dottie -
I agree that the dragon is giving us the Truth of our
non-significance. I just think that what separates his Truth
from the Truth of a supreme being is that God encourages
human connectedness with all His creation through
language, ideas, religion, and imagination. It's an extra that
humans have, and it's what separates us from His creatures
that just exist.
For me, Truth, without significance or meaning, is empty.
That's why I think the dragon is not the supreme god.
The dragon's Time Truth is absolute, for sure. But what
makes him evil, for Gardner, is his lack of acceptance and
understanding of the extras that give life meaning for
humans. Perhaps the dragon is God's complement? The
dragon is something God must work against, to define
himself for Man.
I agree that the dragon may represent the fallen angel that
became Satan. He has God's all seeing eye, but lacks the
King of the Gods' "extra," which allows Man to seek and
create meaning in his life.
I think it is significant that the dragon, like Grendel, whom
we know is a descendent of Cain, lives in the shadows. The
sun that helps us define our world is not his domain.
Grendel gets into big trouble once he starts traveling about
in the sun. It's Grendel's dawning knowledge that causes
his demise. He is so blinded by sunlight and the Shaper's
words and songs that he begins to question his shadow
existence. That is the beginning of his downfall. And that is
what draws me to Grendel's plight.
Who was it that made the point that it's our imagination
that works to separate us from a merely seeing kind of
existence? That certainly fits, I think. Imagination is certainly
a divine gift.
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (47 of 56), Read 45 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 08:30 PM
Kay,
You mentioned that you thought that the phrase "Cut B."
had something to do with Beowulf. I don't see it that way.
Earlier in the chapter Grendel says:
Time-Space cross-section: Wealtheow.
Cut A:
Then he tells the story of the beautiful Wealtheow. I looked
at the terms Cut A and Cut B as being terms from the movie.
It is as if Grendel is showing us a movie of his life. G. was in
love with W. until he saw her naked and then he moved on
the Cut B which is the story of Hrothulf.
I have been enjoying these wonderful notes. There is much
to think about.
Jane
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (48 of 56), Read 41 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Kay Dugan (okaychatt@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, July 16, 2001 09:08 PM
Ok. Thanks, Jane. I missed "Cut A." Funny! Some of
Grendel's one liners were true classics.
All-
What are we to do with the fact that B. eventually meets his
death through the dragon? Also, what about the fact that G.
sees/hears the dragon as B. is killing him?
Is the message that Time does win? Everytime. The
dragon's Time wins, in spite of all our attempts to create
meaning in our lives.
K
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (49 of 56), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 08:44 AM
Fantastic posts, everyone. There's so much food for thought
that I don't know where to dig in...
Kay, you beat me to the question I had during all the talk of
the dragon--this dragon is going to slay Beowulf, is going to
succeed (sort of speak) where Grendel will fail. The
confrontation between Beowulf and the dragon is a definite
boon--it allows the dragon to slay Beowulf but it also allows
the dragon to finally just die. The dragon burns in the
seeming tedium of time and is probably impatient for
Beowulf's arrival.
This reminds me of one of the more poetic passages in the
novel where Grendel observes one of Hrothgar's bowmen
pursuing a hart:
Time is inside them, transferred from chamber to chamber like
sand in an hourglass; it can no more get outside than sand in
the lower chamber can rise to the upper without a hand to turn
stiff nature on its head. They face each other, unmoving as
numbers on a stick. And then, incredibly, through the pale
strange light the man's hand moves--click click click
click--toward the bow, and grasps it, and draws it down, away
from the shoulder and around in front (click click) and transfers
the bow to the slowly moving second hand, and the first hand
goes back up and (click) over the shoulder and returns with an
arrow, threads the bow. Suddenly time is a rush for the hart:
his head flicks, he jerks, his front legs buckling, and he's dead.
He lies as still as the snow hurtling outward around him to the
hushed world's rim.
In this passage, Grendel notes that both the hunter and the
hunted are trapped within time and there's no going
backwards; it's all an inexorable forward movement.
However, though they seemed trapped in time's amber, the
hunter is able to move while seemingly motionless the
whole time. This imagery seems to both reinforce as well as
contradict the dragon's statements: Humanity is stuck in
time but they are able to work within its confines.
Also, the passage presages Beowulf's slaying of Grendel.
Grendel is like the hart, a passive victim of time doing
nothing but letting the clicks pass. Beowulf is the hunter,
seemingly still while all the time preparing for the kill. For the
hart, as for Grendel, it is when time's arrow flies that "time
is a rush." Compare how the pace of the novel increases
after Grendel is mortally wounded.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (50 of 56), Read 30 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 09:30 AM
Hi, All -- The more I think of it, the more I'd like to consider
some elementary Biblical references in GRENDEL and the
Dragon as the Devil. Dottie and Marcy got me to thinking
more about this, and I thank them. I haven't yet read
followups to postings since last I logged in, so there may be
comments on this by others. And I see there are lots of new
messages to read! Goodie!
Sally Venura, in the Midwest Quarterly, Autumn, 1995, wrote
this about Gardner's novel, THE SUNLIGHT DIALOGUES,
which was published right after GRENDEL:
"Although scholars have paid some attention to the
influences of Dante, Malory, Blake, and others upon the
fiction of John Gardner, little has been done in terms of the
overwhelming number of Biblical references in his work even
though in his autobiographical CARTOONS Gardner cited God
(along with Dickens and Disney) as a favorite author from
the nonrealist tradition (126). Since within the first ten
pages of The Sunlight Dialogues there are references to
Jacob and Leah, Jonah, King David and the oldest judge in
the world, it seems worthwhile to begin such a study with a
consideration of the relationship between the Old
Testament and this novel. Despite the references in the
beginning of the novel to the era of patriarchs and kings,
The Sunlight Dialogues seems to be most indebted to
wisdom literature, more specially, to the Book of Job.
Because Gardner recalls in Cartoons instances in which his
father read from the Book of Job (125), there can be no
doubt that Gardner was familiar with the work."
Likewise, in GRENDEL, there are some interesting Biblical
aspects to ponder that are akin to the beginning of Genesis.
"In the beginning of Creation, when God made heaven and
earth, the earth was without form and void, with darkness
over the face of the abysss…" Grendel emerges from his
chthonic, dark dwelling place into the world of light. (God
said, "Let there be light." Kay pointed out the many
references in GRENDEL to the sun, sunlight.) Though
Grendel may not be an ADAM, he seems to begin to name
the animals. Before long, humans began to emerge in
Grendel's world. I haven't followed this thought through
completely but I'd like to jump ahead to his encounter with
the Dragon. The dragon's fire illuminates his hellish world,
as a devil, he is the archetypal "Prince of Darkness."
Moreover, he jealously guards his gold-hord, gold being an
element of the earth's underworld. Hell, in the Christian
viewpoint, seems to be below the earth.
My DICTIONARY OF BIBLICAL TRADITION IN ENGLISH
LITEARTURE says, under the category "Dragon of the
Apocalypse" -- "All the ancient mythologies contain such a
dragon creature, usually serpentine and winged which
embodies the wild forces of chaos and destruction against
which a cosmic conflict must be fought. The slaying of a
dragon restores order and brings blessedness." (Enter
Beowulf!)
Dragons exist in the OT but The Apocalypse is the only New
Testament book that takes up the Dragon motif. In Rev.
12:9; and 20:2) the dragon is explicitly identified with "the
ancient serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan…A
typical early medieval interpretation of the dragon and the
beasts is that of Beatus of Liebana (8th century). All these
figures, he argues, are limbs of the Antichrist." That
Grendel's all-seeing dragon speaks of the Apocalypse is not
coincidental, I think. Nor is it a coincidence that Beowulf
seems to have wings ("…he stretches his blinding white
wings…") as he confronts Beowulf, and he could be
considered an angel, or Christ-like. Seemingly a believer,
certainly a life-affirmer. Beowulf whispers to him: "Though
you murder the world ... The world will burn green, sperm
build again." - resurrection theme. And how like the 23rd
Psalm when Grendel says, "The world is my bone-cave, I
shall not want." Lots of biblical imagery suggested, and a
bridge between the OT and the NT.
I will have to go to the Poetry Category here to find out
about The Mental Traveler. Sounds so intriguing. Kay,
another thought about your question about the use of the
Blake poem at the beginning. I think it "sets the stage for
what Gardner is converying about "morality." I found out
that Blake's Urizen, in his mystical poems, is a grim old giant,
restrictive of morality. Blake creates his own mythology with
Urizen as the deviser of moral codes, and Orc (GRENDEL'S
Ork?!) the arch-rebel for central figures. Gardner is as crafty
as the devil himself!
I believe it would be possible to make more of a case for
these speculations, and far more inclusive than mine. But
what is important, and so gratifying about GRENDEL is that
Gardner writes with such richness that he opens many
avenues for interpretation. We each bring to a book what
we have within us according to our experience and
readings. That's the real treasure trove of GRENDEL as
evidenced by the many wonderful thoughts posted here.
Bonnie
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (51 of 56), Read 28 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 09:38 AM
Oh Woe, Woe! I typed in "Mental Traveler" in the search
engine here, but nothing came up. Did anyone archive the
discussion, and could they email it to me?
Bonnie, wishful.
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (52 of 56), Read 27 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 10:25 AM
Trust me, the Mental Traveller was a limited discussion. It
was "reality police" against the poets.
And we are still split. I'll see if I have it kicking around okay?
Candy
"Poetry is a verdict not an intention"
Leonard Cohen
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (53 of 56), Read 20 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 12:22 PM
Don't go to any trouble, Candy, it doesn't sound like
anything I really need to read, but thanks.
Dan wrote in his first message:
"Of course, the most interesting aspect of this novel is
Grendel himself. Grendel with his love/hate affair with
poetry, femininity, and heroism. His narrative is engrossing
and
enlightening. Are we all machines running on lust and
passion, as he maintains?"
We haven't discussed the women in Grendel…as with
everything else, as Dan wrote, there's a love/hate
relationship regarding the women in the book.
Was there a scene more gripping in the novel than
Grendel's abduction of Wealtheow? Yet, he could not go
through with his dastardly intent because he was stopped
by her beauty. Wealtheow seems to me the most civilized of
the personages. Is she the personification of "Sophia?" from
the Greek, meaning "wisdom?' She is not only beautiful, but
she seems to embrace the ideals of "hospitality" in their
world. Grendel says (my paraphrase) that when the men
were drinking they didn't hurt anyone, really, except an
occasional woman who "asks for it." She sort of represents
Dante's Beatrice, in a way…G. seems to pine for a woman,
for more than sexual needs, someone to alleviate his
loneliness. That "dark hole" which he hates harkens back to
his relationship with his mother, and suggests the dark
place in which they both dwell. As a cup-bearer, pouring out
the mead for guests, I think of Wealtheow being the bearer,
perhaps, of an early "Grail." Does that strike a chord with
anyone? And I think about that "golden cup" in Blake's
epigraph-poem again too. He's born of an old hag, who nails
him down upon a rock (sounds like a crucifixion) and catches
his shrieks in cups of gold." Darkness into Light, hmmm!
Bonnie
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (54 of 56), Read 18 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Marcy Vaughan (vaughan@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 01:54 PM
Bonnie - Thanks for taking the time to make that post on
biblical references!
I've been especially trying to figure out the meaning of the
cave/biblical allusions. As Bonnie mentioned, Grendel says:
"The world is my bone-cave, I shall not want" (170)- a take
on Psalm 23.
Grendel also says the following: "I saw long ago the whole
universe as not-my-mother, and I glimpsed my place in it, a
hole. Yet I exist, I knew. Then I alone exist, I said. It's me or
it. What glorious recognition! (The cave my cave is a jealous
cave)" (158). I think this is a take on The Book of
Deuteronomy (King James Version): Thou shalt not bow
down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy
God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers
upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of
them that hate me (5.9)
I'd love to hear thoughts with regard to what is being said
about Grendel's sense of self through these parodies?
Thanks,
Marcy
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (55 of 56), Read 12 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Marcy Vaughan (vaughan@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 03:16 PM
Just some thoughts with regard to Dan’s message:
It makes sense that the dragon succeeds in killing Beowulf
whereas Grendel (and his mother) fail because Grendel, and
even his mother, are essentially human-like in form,
whereas the dragon is not. As has been discussed, the
dragon is more of a force of supernatural evil, and Beowulf
himself is a Christ-like figure. But I think it’s important that
the dragon tells Grendel of the dragon’s own upcoming
death at the hands of B. because it shows that although the
dragon is all-knowing, he is not God, because “even [the
dragon] will be gone” (70); and also we see that the dragon
comments that his own death is “meaningless, however”
(70). The dragon sees the universe as all cogs, wheels, and
accidents of evolution; nothing has meaning to him, not
even the thought of his own death. The passage that Dan
mentions about one of Hrothgar's bowmen pursuing a hart
goes along with the nihilistic dragon’s vision of a mechanistic
world (the numerous repetitions of the word “click.”)
(As an aside, I think the dragon gets one of the funniest
lines in the book when he says that his own death will
result in the “loss of a remarkable form of life.
Conservationists will howl.”)
And Bonnie, I really liked your ideas about Wealtheow. She
is indeed the closest example of a Christian in novel. The
Shaper brought the Old Testament to the village, but
Wealtheow brings the New Testament ideals with her –
sacrifice - “she’d lain aside her happiness for [the people of
her land]” (104). Even the name Wealtheow means “holy
servant of common good” (100). But I think that what
stopped Grendel from killing her was not her beauty, but
Grendel’s inability to bear a compromise between
Wealtheow’s pure beauty and her undeniable physicality
which to him ruins that ideal beauty. (He exposes her to
himself, both literally and figuratively).
-Marcy
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (56 of 56), Read 9 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 04:25 PM
Bonnie: Bravo on the Biblical allusions. I should have paid
more attention during Sunday School.
However, I thought Gardner was imitating the Platonic
notion of "the cave" where reality is created. I confess my
knowledge of Plato is severely limited, but Grendel's
awakening to a world beyond the cave--with its motion from
darkness and shadow into light--reminded me so much of
Plato's metaphor of the cave.
Perhaps someone more adept at philosophy could provide
more solid proof, but I sensed not only Platonism but also
references to Descartes, Nietzche, and Sartre (which
someone already mentioned catching). Grendel, in some
ways, functions as a commentary not only on Beowulf but on
the philosophy of humanity as well.
I think Grendel is so taken with Weoltheow not because of
her beauty but because she is as trapped by fate as he is:
She's a pawn, a token that helped save the lives of her
brother and his thugs. She can't insult Hrothgar and she
obviously is oblivious to him. She sleeps in his bed, she
pours his mead. But Grendel knows at night she cries
"thinking of home, remembering paths in the land of the
Helmings were she'd played before she'd lain aside her
happiness for theirs."
Note the passage where she attempts to serve Unferth:
"My lord?" she said. She often called the thanes "my lord."
Servant of even the lowliest among them.
"No thank you," he said. He shot a glance at her, then looked
down, smiled fiercely. She waited, expressionless except for
perhaps the barest trace of puzzlement. He said, "I've had
enough."
Down the table a man made bold by mead said, "Men have
been known to kill their brothers when they've had too much
mead. Har har."
A few men laughed.
Unferth stiffened. The queen's face paled. Once again Unferth
glanced up at the queen, then away. His fists closed tight,
resting on the table in front of him, inches from his knife. No
one moved. The hall became still. She stood strange-eyed, as if
looking out from another world and time. Who can say what
she understood? I knew, for one, that the brother-killer had
put on the Shaper's idea of the hero like a merry mask, had
seen it torn away, and was now reduced to what he was: a
thinking animal stripped naked of former illusions, stubbornly
living on, ashamed and meaningless, because killing himself
would be, like his life, unheroic. It was a paradox nothing could
resolve but a murderous snicker. The moment stretched, a
snag in time's stream, and still no one moved, no one spoke...
The queen smiled. Impossibly, like roses blooming in the heart
of December, she said, "That's past." And it was. The demon
was exoricised. I saw his hands unclench, relax, and--torn
between tears and a bellow of scorn--I crept back to my cave.
It was not, understand, that she had secret wells of joy that
overflowed to them all. She lay beside the sleeping king--I
watched wherever she went, a crafty guardian, wealthy in
wiles--and her eyes were open, the lashes bright with tears...
At the end of the chapter, Grendel strips the queen naked
as well and is repulsed by her vagina, by her utter animality.
Recall that the breasts of Grendel's mother is always
associated with bristly fur; for Grendel, there's nothing more
animal than naked femininity.
Before revealing her essence, Grendel equated the queen
with the Shaper as another with the power to bridge
chasms between chaos and understanding. And he's right.
The queen is able to allow Unferth to see that the past is
behind him and that is should not haunt him forever.
No doubt, these words play a role in helping Unferth
understand heroism and accept his own role in the ongoing
saga. When he leaves Beowulf in tears, he exits Gardner's
novel. But in Beowulf, Unferth appears at the edge of the
mere when Beowulf goes looking for Grendel's mother and
gives Beowulf his best sword to help him. Unferth respects
Beowulf; Unferth does what he can to allow Beowulf to be
the hero he obviously is.
And even though it's the original Beowulf, the character of
Unferth aside the mere presenting a sword to Beowulf is
always Gardner's character for me.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (57 of 68), Read 74 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 10:00 PM
Without going through the pains of citing all the references
-- I just don't have the time -- I think all the characters in
GRENDEL are like Chinese puzzles, they all are
shape-shifters in a way. Gardner shows Unferth with his
dark and light side, Wealtheow with her dark and light side,
Grendel with his dark and light side, Hrothgar too. Grendel
seems like the primordial ooze at first, then he is perceived
as an oak tree spirit, then is likened to Cain, and then is
The Great Destroyer.
Dan, the metaphor of Plato's cave works here too, and
Marcy, so do Biblical alllusions. Gardner was a genius at
"embedding" layer upon layer of meaning, spinning words
and webs like a magician, pricking our Western common
literary knowledge to bring thoughts and meaning into play.
How we interpret things, in essence, makes us co-creators.
Grendel can be read from various viewpoints, Biblically,
psychologically -- meaning Freudian and Jungian -(Grendel's
Jungian "shadow?") We can read it Philosophically as in
Plato and Sartre, and also from a feminist perspective. And
they can all overlap, and do. The Allegory of the Cave IS
there, especially within the text's emphasis on Illusion vs.
reality. There is no one final interpretation, but how
enriching to find the (for want of a better word)
"omnivalence" in the text. (Anyone ever read THE FIRE IN
THE CRUCIBLE, THE ALCHEMY OF CREATIVE GENIUS, by John
Briggs?)
Marcy, I didn't know Wealtheow's name meant "holy
servant of the common good." She is also reminiscent of the
Virgin Mary (mother of the Christ-like Beowulf?) and her
sacrifice in leaving her people (albeit against her will) is not
unlike the V. Mary's sacrificial love. The VM was a pawn too,
in a way, for the coming of The Big Guy!
The queen smiled. Impossibly, like roses blooming in the
heart of December…[Gardner writes.]
Lo! How a rose ere blooming…what's that old Christmas
carol?
I often have trouble with the concept of "sacrificial love."
But I think of those heroes and heroines of old, and even
some modern-day ones, who are supreme sacrificers for the
common good. They may not have been saintly, but they
accomplished a lot…Gandhi, Dr. Martin Luther King.
Dan, that's funny, you should have paid more attention in
Sunday school! I had it forced upon me! I think I tend to
read lots of Biblical interpretations into things because of
spending 8 years in a parochial grade school. Though I may
be a Doubting Thomas, the Bible readings left an indelible
impression on me. The Bible, as Literature, is one of the
greatest books, especially if it's the King James Version with
its beautiful language. I read an interview by the wife of
Gardner's editor, if I recall correctly, -- she said Gardner, as
an adult, would attend church sometimes and sing out the
hymns, and he sang with other choirs too, as well as
playing a horn instrument. Oh, the power of music to tame
the savage breast! Or do I mean beast-Grendel?!
Bonnie
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (58 of 68), Read 75 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Marcy Vaughan (vaughan@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001 10:08 PM
Dan – I’m definitely not adept at philosophy, but I thought it
would be really interesting to pursue your idea that Grendel
functions “as a commentary […] on the philosophy of
humanity.”
In chapter 2, it seems that Grendel finds comfort in
solipsism after his first brush with death. He says, “I exist,
nothing else” (p.28). The outside world, which has so
terrified him, is now nothing more than the product of his
own will.
In chapters 3 and 4, the Shaper challenges Grendel’s
solipsism and leads him to desire some order and purpose
in the world. By bringing history to the village – by tearing
“up the past by its thick, gnarled roots and [transmuting] it”
(p.43) – he forces Grendel to acknowledge and think about
exterior reality. Grendel is overwhelmed by the contraries of
faith and doubt (the relinquishment of mind to
emotion/imagination). “Thus I fled, ridiculous hairy creature
torn apart by poetry […]” (p.44). But he desperately wants
to accept the theological world-view offered by the Shaper.
Grendel meets the dragon in chapter 5, and buys into the
dragon’s nihilistic view that there is no connection between
man and the universe; that it is a mechanistic world where
nothing has meaning. (I’m not sure of the difference
between existentialism and nihilism. I know that Nietzsche
is associated with nihilism, and that he proclaimed the
death of God around 1890. I also know that existentialists
like Sartre tackled the problems of human freedom (how
one should live one’s life/find meaning in life) in the absence
of God. Maybe that’s the difference – that existentialists like
Sartre believed life still has meaning even if there is no
God???)
By the end of chapter 7, when even Wealtheow’s influence
fails to save him, Grendel says, “I resolved, absolutely and
finally, to kill myself, for love of the Baby Grendel that used
to be” (p.110). This to me was the most moving moment of
the novel.
In chapter 8 we get a Machiavellian vision of human society
through the characters of Hrothulf and Red Horse. It seems
like we can set up the following analogy: Red Horse is to
Hrothulf as the dragon is to Grendel.
The speech given by the fourth priest in chapter 9 echoes
Blake’s anti-rationalism. And in the last chapter, Beowulf’s
words seem to express a Blakean faith in the power of the
imagination to create either a hell or a heaven of
experience. B. whispers to G., “You make the world by
whispers, second by second. Are you blind to that?
Whether you make it a grave or a garden of roses […]”
(p.171). However, B. also continues that same thought to
say, “Whether you make it a grave of a garden of roses is
not the point. Feel the wall: is it not hard? […] Hard, yes!
Observe the hardness […]” (p.171). Is Beowulf espousing
empiricism here? Either way, G. ends up saying, “Is it joy I
feel?” (p.173).
He has finally achieved the spiritual connectedness that he
had been searching for until the dragon’s vision took hold.
Sorry this is so long. There’s just so much to think about
here! I know there's so many different ways to look at this
book, but Dan peaked my interest in the philosophical side
of things - and I'd love any other thoughts on this.
-Marcy
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (59 of 68), Read 70 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 18, 2001 07:49 AM
Absolutely stunning analysis, Marcy! Simply stunning! You
give us so much more to think about! Thanks!
Bonnie
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (60 of 68), Read 67 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 18, 2001 09:27 AM
No way I could imagine a discussion being as stimulating as
Beowulf. These are all awesome posts and notes.
The notes regarding characters and their sentiments
representing christianity or philosphy have been incredible.
Candy
"First people will deny a thing, then they will belittle it, then
they will decide that it had been known long ago"
Humbolt
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (61 of 68), Read 68 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, July 18, 2001 10:23 AM
Marcy: Exactly what I suspected but didn't have the
wherewithal to articulate.
I am intrigued that each chapter is composed of multiple
layers (as Bonnie illustrated a few posts back), echoing
Joyce's Ulysses on a much smaller scale. Some readers
would insist all of these allusions are red herrings to get
critics to want to come in and wallow in the text, but I like
the idea that Gardner wanted to take a seemingly formulaic
work like Beowulf and illustrate how it is potent enough to
refract the philosophical and literary heritages of humanity
in the 20th century.
Which, when I think about it, is what Joyce did with Homer.
Wait a minute...
Anywho, I recall reading somewhere that one of the trends
of the 20th century was reductionism, where the work of
Freud and followers began to reduce humanity to
psychological and even chemical processes; human
behavior and action is nothing more than the result of brain
chemicals splashing together in the cranium, sort of speak.
In Grendel, Grendel states at one point that men are
"machines driven by passion and lust," spouting
reductionism: Humanity are chemical machines. By the end
of the novel, Grendel is describing the arriving Geats as
mechanical:"...and then, quick as wolves--but mechanical,
terrible--the strangers leaped down." Of course, this POV is
also expressed in the passage I quoted earlier about the
hunter and the hart (where someone noted the mechanical
nature of the "click click click" refrain).
While other philosophies are examined and replaced or
modified with Grendel (solipsism, existentialism), Grendel
takes reductionism to his grave. He always wanted to know
what made humanity tick, what made himself tick--and he
seems to have gone quite insane attempting to define
something as spontaneous and explosive as humanity or
even himself solely in terms of original stimulants (as in
"passion and lust" for humanity).
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (62 of 68), Read 32 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 09:02 AM
I've just finished reading this incredible thread, and would
like to tell Bonnie and Marcy how very happy I am that you
are both here. You have broadened the mental scope of CR
exponentially. I am in awe of everyone's analyses.
I'd like to make a rather pedestrian comment. I read a copy
of Grendel that my son read in high school. My daughter told
me she read it in high school, too. I am so glad that both
my children had a chance to study something this original
and thought-provoking at such a young age. I imagine
there are some schools that would probably avoid this book
at all costs.
Sherry
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (63 of 68), Read 35 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 09:29 AM
To be honest, Sherry, I have never heard of English
teachers utilizing this wonderful novel. Kudos to your
children's instructors.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (64 of 68), Read 36 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 09:52 AM
I think it's a great novel to get kids thinking. (Not only kids,
as witness the notes here.)
Sherry
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (65 of 68), Read 36 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Bonnie Mots (bmots@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 12:14 PM
Sherry, GRENDEL has about done my thinker in! There may
be "23 ways at looking at a blackbird" but there are even
more ways to look at GRENDEL. I'd like to thank Dan mucho
for selecting GRENDEL for a Reading List book. Not only did
he and everyone else enhance my reading of it, but I am
now reading other things by Gardner. I'm starting out with
a book of short stories entitled THE KING'S INDIAN. The first
story, "Pastoral Care" is about a hippie-type minister who
confronts a hippie who blows up buildings. The characters
in his parish are "money-counters and harlots!" Haven't
finished the story yet, but it's a good one!
Talk about "an accident" -- I think I made an accidental
mistake in an earlier post...I think Gardner's brother was
killed in Batavia, NY, where Gardner grew up, not in
Carbondale, IL., where Gardner was a professor of English.
Bonnie
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (66 of 68), Read 29 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 06:55 PM
Bonnie: Everyone did a great job with this novel and I
walked away with so much more than I arrived with. Keep
us posted on the other Gardners and any other works you
delve into in the future. I look forward to all your future
posts.
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (67 of 68), Read 34 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Janet Mego (vsjego@cs.com)
Date:
Friday, July 20, 2001 10:19 PM
Hi--
This is an absolutely delicious thread. Got my copy of
GRENDEL today. I have read excerpts to my classes before,
and had a small-group poem in the style of BEOWULF
written from Grendel's point of view as a result. I'll have to
go dig it up. All I can remember at this point is the final
lines, to the effect that at last creatures like Grendel have
met their match, because a new creature is coming:
The creature is man
And he has no mercy
Those last two lines really did stick. It was the best group
effort I had that day, I think. . .
Did y'all know that Gardner was one of William Styron's
most caustic critics after SOPHIE'S CHOICE came out? So
ironic, in light of GRENDEL'S theme of examining the grey
area between polar extremes in villains--he was avidly
opposed to the idea that Styron could "attempt to
humanize" nazis by making them interested in classical
music, etc--how dare we try to analyze them as human
beings??
In all fairness, he did apologize for some aspects of
"unfairness" his article conveyed toward Styron, in a later
article.
I think an old Eh prof told me the motorcycle accident that
killed him resulted from his wild careening down the beach
on said bike. This was an interesting personality, I think.
Janet
Topic:
Grendel by John Gardner (68 of 68), Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, July 21, 2001 01:08 PM
Dan,
We have a fine Humanities program at our school. The
sophomores read both GRENDEL and BEOWULF and have
done so for years. And I might add for those who don't
know, I teach at a public school in Colorado. The kids who
come out of this Humanities program find college English to
be a piece of cake, because they have been doing college
level English for three years.
Jane
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John Gardner
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