Topic: Go Down, Moses: Wm. Faulkner (1 of 32), Read 46 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:44 PM I am far from finished with this novel, but nonetheless, thought I'd start a thread. Maybe then I can get some help in keeping everything straight. I'm a fast reader, but I now realize this is a book that has to be read slowly. But this is good for me; I could use a lesson in patience. Should we take this story by story, or as a whole? Beej
Topic: Go Down, Moses: Wm. Faulkner (2 of 32), Read 43 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Sherri Kendrick sheval@hotmail.com Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 02:43 PM For my peace of mind, I'd like to go story by story, I'm slowly being buried by my CR TBR pile, not to mention my own TBR pile! Sherri
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (3 of 32), Read 46 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 09:06 PM At first I considered 'Was' to be a lighthearted little story about a spinster, a chase, a card game. But, I kept returning to it, over and over, re-reading a page or two here and there. And the title intrigued me..why 'Was'? Then, well into my reading of 'The Fire and the Hearth' it dawned on me that this story (WAS) was from well into the past...it WAS! And I realized then, after several scattered re-readings, it has tons of significant information that lead up to characters in TFATH and, I'm certain, to those in the rest of the book. One sentence, about Tomey Turl flew out at me during one of these re-reads...'Mr. Hubert said he not only wouldn't buy Tomey's Turl, he wouldn't have that damn white half-McCaslin on his place as a gift.' I began to try and sort out the genealogy and I THINK Tomey's Turl is Uncle Buck's and Uncle Buddy's half brother. As I continued into The Fire and The Hearth (I won't get into that one yet. I'll wait until we're done discussing WAS)..I began to see the importance of 'Was', especially as to how it deals with the division of black and white within a family, and I had an epiphany about this family, that it is basically an allegory for the South as a whole, with all its racial division and relations. Faulkner writes of the McCaslins, but as a whole, is really writing about the deep South. Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (4 of 32), Read 47 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 09:14 PM (Boy, I hope that made sense! But, I really do believe WAS is not as fluffy and lighthearted as it seems to be at first glance...I think Faulkner sneaks in lots of vital info within this story.) Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (5 of 32), Read 56 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:32 AM It made perfect sense, and you're right on, Beej. This family tree confirms what you figured out independently. (Although, you're not supposed to know about the incest until later. That's kind of a spoiler. Sorry.) Busy, busy here but I will try to contribute something decent to the discussion soon. Steve
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (6 of 32), Read 52 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:05 PM Oh, don't worry about spoilers, at least on my account. I'm just so happy to have this McCaslin genealogy! Thank you for taking the time from your busy work schedule to post that. It will make things SO much easier for me. (now I don't have to sit down with paper and pen and draw little connecting lines between characters!) Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (7 of 32), Read 54 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:22 PM Which all raises this question. If one's father enters into a union with a woman other than one's mother, which union produces a daughter, that daughter is clearly one's half sister. However, if the father then enters into a union with that daughter (his daughter), which union produces a son, then what is the nature of one's relationship with that son? My "Family Tree" computer program, which usually sheds great light on such questions, doesn't allow for this. In fact it scrambles up when I try to feed this data into it. I guess "half brother" is going to have to do. Steve
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (8 of 32), Read 53 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:29 PM Steve: You need to get the special Faulkner edition of the "Family Tree" software. Same as the original, except that the tree doesn't fork. >>Dale in Ala.
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (9 of 32), Read 42 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 05:39 PM Man, that family tree is fascinating! So, Lucius had sex with the slave Eunice, who gave birth to his daughter, Tomasina. Then Lucius had sex with Tomasina, and she gave birth to his son,Tomey's Turl. I gather Eunice was not Lucius' slave as she passes on to Tomey's Turl the surname of the Beauchamp family. Yet, the slave by whom he has a daughter and a grandson carries the McCaslin name. Therefore, she must have been Lucius' slave. But, Tomey's Turl's grandmother was not Lucius McCaslin's slave..interesting. And Eunice was married to the slave, Thucydus but there doesn't seem to be any children from that marriage. Okay, got it. I think. Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (10 of 32), Read 27 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 06:03 PM Steve, Thanks for the tree. I'll be referring to it alot, I'm sure! It's going to be hard to separate out each story, I think. In THATF, I was stymied by Edmonds' concern that Lucius had the family blood by a woman before he, himself, had it through a male relative. (Am I getting this right? I don't have the book near by.) Was this hinted at in WAS? Mercy, I gotta go back to that family tree and study it a bit. Then reread. This is not going to be easy... An aside note...I was in the library today, checking out the Faulkner selections. I picked up SARTORIS (which sounds like it ought to be read early on to get some of the genealogy down!) As I read the opening paragraph (sentence?) I realized how captivated I am by his writing, his thought process, and his flow of words. It's a beauty to savor. I'm going to be reading lots of his stuff in the year to come, i can tell. Anne
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (11 of 32), Read 28 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 06:25 PM Anne, I need to go check something out again in that family tree, because obviously Lucas' bloodline to the McCaslins is from the female side, too..through Lucius' black daughter/granddaughter. It is going to be difficult to separate WAS from THE FIRE AND THE HEARTH. Reading Faulkner is like being transported into a modern Genesis! All that begetting! I agree..Faulkner is utterly fascinating. Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (12 of 32), Read 31 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:43 AM My own thoughts about one's initial, and it some cases ongoing, confusion in reading this book. In the second section of "The Bear," Ike McCaslin labors over the old family records of slave ownership and from clues he finds there figures out this incest thing. Precisely the same process that you have undertaken, Beej. But the point is that that section is one of the most difficult of all for readers to follow and understand. It seems to me that in this book Faulkner sometimes uses a very difficult style to replicate in his reader the very same problem that his own character has of grasping what has gone on in the past. Make sense at all? This reminds me of a story about a frustrated reader who confronted Faulkner with the fact that she had read one of his novels three times and still couldn't understand it. Faulkner's response: read it a fourth time. Steve
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (13 of 32), Read 32 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:51 AM It certainly does make sense, Steve. Faulkner forces his readers to replicate the difficulty his character experiences in deciphering this family's genealogy. And, though frustrating and complicated, I find it to be absolutely fascinating. To me, this family is as real as my own. It becomes increasingly difficult for me to remember this is FICTION! So far, the story that has most hit me in the pit of my stomach is 'Pantaloon in Black.' But..again a lesson in patience for me.. I'll wait to get into it. Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (14 of 32), Read 30 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:02 PM In that second section of "The Bear," there is dialogue between Ike McCaslin and a friend (ashamed to say the identity of this guy escapes me). It is very difficult to sort this out initially. I ended up returning the library's copy and purchasing a cheap paperback edition. Then I took a red hi-liter and highlighted the "he said"'s that referred to Ike. I took a blue hi-liter and highlighted the "he said"'s that referred to the other guy. The things we do for love! But it was the only damned way I could figure to noodle out that conversation. It is important though. That conversation is central to the book. Steve
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (15 of 32), Read 31 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:02 PM Maybe we should move on to 'The Fire and the Hearth' now. There's so much that is told to us in that one and I'm anxious to get into it. Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (16 of 32), Read 34 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:06 PM I think I'll follow suit with your marker idea, Steve. I remembered you had suggested that I buy a little paperback of my own so I could mark it up, and I did that. Thanks! Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (17 of 32), Read 27 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 01:04 PM Ike McCaslin's wife is a bitch. (There is another word I would rather use and would use in conversation, but in the interest of the sensibilities of all present, I have restrained myself from writing it here.) Steve
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (18 of 32), Read 17 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Daniel LeBoeuf dan1066@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 08:12 PM "Once a Bitch always a Bitch, what I say." Dan It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (19 of 32), Read 21 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 08:59 PM To step back a minute to WAS; This was still the time of the gentle South..here we have Miss Sophonsiba who wishes to win Uncle Buck for her beau. She offers him a toddy and asks him if he would like to see how she used to sweeten her daddy's toddy. She proceeds to lift the toddy and take a sip of it before handing it back to Uncle Buck. did she win Uncle Buck? No. He won her. In a card game. In fact, he won her in the same game where he won the slave Tennie. This tells me that women were considered as property. Maybe a bit more important than slaves, but not much. Tomey's Turl...it took me awhile to figure out his name, but a look at the family tree tells us his real name was Terrill. He was the son of Tomasina...hence the name Tomey's 'Turl'! I have to mention 'The Bear.' I'm still reading it but I really need to know something. Without going into details, is the bear a symbol for something else? I have this wild idea in my head about that. Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (20 of 32), Read 23 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 09:28 PM Why does there seem to be this competition between Buck and Buddy, and Tomey's Turl? They have plenty of slaves and they know where Tomey's Turl is headed. Yet, the competition of the chase seems more important than bringing a slave home. Do they feel threatened by Tomey's Turl because of this double McCaslin heritage? Afterall, it was this very heritage that set Tomey's Turl's grandson, Lucas, apart from the other blacks. Buck and Buddy had to know the story behind Tomey's heritage. Even Mr. Hubert knew about that. And, come to think of it, wasn't Tomey's Turl's family originally from the Beauchamp plantation? How did he end up belonging to the McCaslins? Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (21 of 32), Read 20 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 09:38 PM Okay, I just looked at the family tree...Tomasina obviously died when she gave birth to Tomey's Turl..or soon after. I bet Lucius brought the baby to his property after that..maybe out of a sense of paternal obligation? Boy, I hope these questions are answered in 'The Bear.' Beej
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (22 of 32), Read 20 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net Date: Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:42 PM I'm starting THE BEAR tonight. I'm in for a ride, I'm sure. Start any other discussions wherever and whenever you'd like, gang! Anne
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (23 of 32), Read 42 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 08:01 AM Anne, I know I'm ready to move on to 'THE FIRE AND THE HEARTH.'.. One more thing before we leave 'WAS.' Early on we read about the fox being chased though the house by the dogs. In fact, we hear about this in the same paragraph where we hear Tomey's Turl has run away again. Uncle Buddy begins to 'bellow like a steam boat blowing' as he hits everything in sight with a stick. Faulkner ends this paragraph with..it was a good race. At the end of the story, when Tomey's Turl is captured and everyone is back home, we again read about the fox, who has escaped to the roof of the house. Faulkner says: It was a fine race while it lasted. Obviously, the fox, Tomey's Turl and the chase are tied in together. And I have a theory that seems to hold through all these stories. I think Faulkner uses animals as a symbol for people and situations. Not just the fox, but also the dogs, the bear, and even deer. Referring to the fox, Uncle Buddy says: "What in damn's hell do you mean casting that damn thing (the fox) with all the dogs right in the same room?" I wonder if Faulkner really means this to be directed to Lucius. The fox (the bear?) as symbol for the mixing of white blood with black, the dogs as a symbol for the white branch of the family and the chase the dogs must continue to run in order to keep the black/white status quo where they feel it should be. I know this seems off the wall, but I've read all the stories so far from this perspective and it works...even within the title of the novel, Go Down, Moses. Old Moses was a dog, right? And I'm certain the white branch of this family, especially during immediate post-slavery days, considered the mingling of their white blood with black blood as a downward slide.(how awful and uncomfortable it is to discuss 'old-south' racial prejudice, but I don't see how to honestly discuss this book by playing 'ostrich' and skirting that prejudice..) Hence the title, Go Down, Moses. (though I'm sure this is meant to be taken foremost as 'go down into history', not to mention all the connotations of the black spiritual song by the same title.) To me, the final synopsis of WAS would be, it doesn't matter how well you run the race, baby. It's all the luck of the draw. Beej
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (24 of 32), Read 28 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 09:53 AM There are, first and foremost, two themes I absolutely loved in this story. One is the hearth fire, an eternal flame, so to speak, first kindled on Lucas' and Molly's wedding night, stoked with care so as to never extinguish, even through warm Mississippi summer nights, the thin plume of 'supper smoke' above the chimney and visible from the fields meaning more to Lucas than we can know. Second is Molly, herself. She is old. Molly, tiny and shrunken, sitting on the porch smoking her corncob pipe, carries the crux of the entire story, I believe. Not only does the outcome of TFATH revolve around Molly, but all of what is symbolized by those two babies..one white, the other black, being simultaneously suckled, is TREMENDOUSLY significant. Beej
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (25 of 32), Read 17 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 04:19 PM Beej, I love your insights and ideas. Keep them coming! I'm a face-value type reader, and usually don't pick up well on symbolism unless it literally smacks me in the face. I do, though, agree about the animal-human representations. As I read THE BEAR it comes even clearer. Molly's request for a divorce from Lucas over the money-hunting was touching. That machine represented the root of all evil to her, and her fear that it would taint her daughter Nat was as profound as her realization that she would lose Lucas forever over it. She was an amazing woman. As I go back and skim sections I find so much that I missed or forgot. The depth of these stories is mind boggling. Anne
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (26 of 32), Read 19 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 04:37 PM Anne, you have absolutely no idea how much your post meant to me because I ran a search on symbolism=animals=Faulkner and came up with pretty much nothing at all to support my little theory..so figured I made an a** out of myself once again on the net. I'm still not sure I didn't with that. Oh, well. I saw in a book a handwritten outline for the McCaslin family that Faulkner made..it was incredible! In fact, it resembled a map with dozens and dozens of roads. Beej
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (27 of 32), Read 19 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 04:51 PM Anne, I can't figure out why Molly left Lucas to go live with Edmonds rather than simply taking the baby back to her home. Any ideas? Beej
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (28 of 32), Read 21 times Conf: Constant Reader From: R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 05:49 PM Sheesh, Beej, when I was teaching I'd have given my right arm for a few students willing to go out on a limb and make an a** out of themselves with their own ideas, instead of paraphrasing the book back at me. Ruth "I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm singing today" Berenice Reagon
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (29 of 32), Read 21 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Edward Houghton eddh@pacbell.net Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 07:25 PM ANNE, BEEJ I had the feeling years ago, that the big dog in THE BEAR was an embodiment of a great knight of long ago. He comes out of nowhere, seems to be totally independent, and his only purpose in life is chasing that damned bear. Like the knights of old who were forever "questing". Just a thought that's been kicking around in the deeper recesses of my gray matter. EDD "Here she took off her two bracelets, and gave them to the old woman who was called the angel of death, and who was to murder her......" A VIKING FUNERAL, A.D. 922 as observed by Ibn Fadlan, an envoy from the Caliph of Baghdad.
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (30 of 32), Read 25 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 09:20 PM I was so completely convinced I had it right with that symbolism that I spent a good hour searching the web for anything that might corroborate it. I wasn't successful at all, but did find many, many incredible Faulkner sites. I also came upon this interesting little interpretation of The Bear written by Brian Bedard from The South Dakota Review: 'The sad truth of the matter is that "The Bear" is an obituary for the last Republican in America. Consider the following evidence carefully, and you will become extremely reluctant to return to traditional interpretations. 1.The bear is a rugged individualist. 2.The bear is a short-tempered patriarch who has had things his own way for a long, long time. 3.The bear believes in States' Rights. 4.The bear's wife is a shadowy figure. 5.The bear has no interest in unions of any kind. 6.The bear has survived several assassination attempts by unwashed and deranged democrats. I rest my case.' Beej
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (31 of 32), Read 19 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 09:45 PM Edd, I think there is just so much symbolism in this book that it almost invites the reader to interpret however it most works on an individual level. I do like your idea of the dog as the great knight, tho. Beej
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (32 of 32), Read 23 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net Date: Saturday, November 17, 2001 06:22 PM Beej, I just did a quick reread of the scene where Molly leaves Lucas and then returns with Zack's child, and darned if I can figure out why she stayed on with Zack in the first place. Did he ask her to stay and she felt obliged? Was there an affair? Was it simply an expectation of the times? Funny that Lucas had to go and tell Zack he wanted her home. Why'd it take him so long to demand it? Anne
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (33 of 37), Read 11 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Felix Miller felix3rd@bellsouth.net Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 09:54 PM I have always enjoyed GDM, in all its Byzantine generational complexity. For those of you interested in the use of real characters in Faulkner's fiction, a study of the contributions of Phil Stone to Faulkner's stories published a few years ago might be interesting. Phil Stone: A Vicarious Life examines the use of Stone family stories by Faulkner in GDM, among others. Especially interesting is the story of the Stone forbearers Amodeus and Theophilus, (Buck and Buddy,) twins living in Lafayette (Yokanawptha) County. Don't have the author's name handy, but I believe the book was published by LSU Press. O the Book/ Of the Dead, and the dead bright sun on the page/ Where the team stands ready to explode/ In all directions with Time... Felix Miller
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (34 of 37), Read 13 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:17 PM Thanks, Felix. I ran a search and found this: Phil Stone of Oxford: A Vicarious Life By Susan Snell Athens: University of Georgia Press, 1991 xi, 399 pages ISBN: 0-820-31296-7 Beej
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (35 of 37), Read 11 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Felix Miller felix3rd@bellsouth.net Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 09:56 PM I have always enjoyed GDM, in all its Byzantine generational complexity. For those of you interested in the use of real characters in Faulkner's fiction, a study of the contributions of Phil Stone to Faulkner's stories published a few years ago might be interesting. Phil Stone: A Vicarious Life examines the use of Stone family stories by Faulkner in GDM, among others. Especially interesting is the story of the Stone forbearers Amodeus and Theophilus, (Buck and Buddy,) twins living in Lafayette (Yoknapatawpha) County. Don't have the author's name handy, but I believe the book was published by LSU Press. O the Book/ Of the Dead, and the dead bright sun on the page/ Where the team stands ready to explode/ In all directions with Time... Felix Miller
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (36 of 37), Read 11 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:05 AM Cass Edmonds! Cass Edmonds! Why couldn't I remember that? Anyway, I was very puzzled upon first reading "Was" about this business of Buck and Buddy living in the cabins while the black folks lived in the big house on the plantation. How can this be explained other than as some sort of expiation by Buck and Buddy for the past? Later, in "The Bear" we find that Buck and Buddy had actually set the slaves free. But the social code still held then. The blacks still act like slaves (even though they can freely slip out the back door of the big house after the front door is locked at night). Tomey's Turl refuses to accept his freedom. Buck and Buddy regard him as less than human and certainly not as a brother. Last but not least, there is that very troubling entry in the slave ledgers by Buddy concerning Eunice's suicide upon learning of her daughter's pregnancy by Lucius to the effect of, "Whoever heard of a nigger killing himself?" Steve
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (37 of 37), Read 10 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:16 AM Anne, here's my take on your questions. Molly stayed with the baby at Zack's because Zack felt he had a right to demand this. She did, too, and so did Lucas initially. We don't know whether there was sex there, and the uncertainty of this tortures Lucas, too. Lastly, Lucas was black. He simply had to build up his determination not to accept this and his resolve to go demand Molly's return. Confronting the white man in this fashion was a big deal with potentially big consequences. But here we see a stark contract between Lucas and Tomey's Turl, his father. Lucas ain't playing the Sambo anymore. That's the way I see it anyway. Steve
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (38 of 38), Read 5 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:25 AM Oh, there's another thing that's interesting as we sort out the facts of this family in "The Bear." The whole southern paternal system backfires on the McCaslin family. Ike is the last of the white paternal line. (The Edmonds are descendants of a daughter of Lucius.) When he renounces his patrimony and does not have children in the process because of his bitch wife, there's an end to that. The only remaining McCaslin descendant in the paternal line is Lucas Beauchamp, a black man. Steve
Topic: Was: Wm. Faulkner (39 of 57), Read 26 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:57 AM Why is it so easy to forget that Tomey's Turl is a quadroon? He is three-quarters white! Steve
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (40 of 57), Read 23 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:00 AM The main house was an 'almost barn like edifice.' The slaves were 'herded willynilly', As they returned in the evening 'the white men counted them.' it sounds to me as tho the main house had become a barn and the ex-slaves were treated like cattle. I'm trying to sort out the chronology was to when Buddy and Buck moved into the cabin. I'm not very good at this, but they moved right after Lucius was buried, in 1837. it seems that the first slave was freed in 1856...so the slaves weren't freed for another 19 years after they were moved into the main house. (I'm trying to just piece things together here.) Could it be that, not only the drowning, but also this move into the cabin and the freeing of these slaves all might have something to do with knowledge of the incest? Did Bucky and Buddy know that Lucius had sex with his own daughter? Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (41 of 57), Read 21 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:31 AM Gosh, it never occurred to me that Buddy and Buck did not know. They had to know, didn't they? Everybody knew, I think. The neighbor refers to Tomey's Turl as "that damn white half-McCaslin." But I could be wrong. If so, let me know. Steve
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (42 of 57), Read 23 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:38 AM No, no, I see your question. Did they know it was incest? Did they know that Tomasina was Eunice's daughter by their father? I don't know if they knew that. Steve
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (43 of 57), Read 27 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:46 AM I'm so confused I couldn't let anybody know anything at this point. In fact, i'm going to re-read this entire section over again. I thought it said that, according to the ledger, Bucky and Buddy recorded Thucydus as Tomasina's father. I'm wondering if they knew Lucius fathered Tomey's Turl but were unaware he had also fathered Tomasina. Eunice was purchased in 1807..the twins were only 8 years old. They were only 11 when Tomasina was born... Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (44 of 57), Read 27 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:48 AM yep...you posted as I was writing, but that's what I meant. I have this niggling feeling the answer is in here somewhere and that it might be important. Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (45 of 57), Read 27 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:00 PM I think Lucas Beauchamp knew. Tomey's Turl may have known, but I'm pretty sure Lucas did know. And I think he felt that land was rightly his. I'm going to go back and read THE FIRE AND THE HEARTH again..It think I missed a lot of significance in some of the stuff Faulkner tells us in there. Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (46 of 57), Read 33 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:38 PM This is what I'm trying to work out in my mind...Buck and Buddy moved out of that house after Lucius died. Lucius' will was included in the ledgers. In this will was left 'a thousand-dollar legacy to the son of this unmarried slave-girl'. Lucius also had a daughter by a slave; this child has no bearing on the story, except to say, of his children by the slaves, Lucius seemed to single out Tomey's Turl for an inheritance. At the time of Tomey's Turl's birth, Buddy and Buck seemed to be confirmed bachelors. in Lucius' mind, there didn't seem to be any male heirs in the future...until Tomey's Turl, the son of a slave, was born. Is all this really a question of who is entitled to this land? And we haven't even touched on Sam Father's heritage. Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (47 of 57), Read 29 times Conf: Constant Reader From: R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:43 PM You mean you don't know Parent's parents? Ruth Qui mangia bene, mangia Italiano
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (48 of 57), Read 28 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:16 PM Beej, I really don't wish to sound picky, but I am sure you intend Sam Fathers, not "Sam Parent," although clearly he is the emotional parent of Ike. Also, I think it is just Uncle Buck not Bucky. Bucky was a beaver in the old Ipana toothpaste commercial. Now, having sounded like a jerk even though I didn't intend to, your question about entitlement to the land is very apt. I don't understand whether there was a patrimony system at work here, or if the eldest male heir was only usually favored in Wills, but clearly the male line was very important. Either way, if Ike truly felt as badly about this mess as he claims, he should have given the land to the Beauchamps. But when we see him in his old age in "Delta Autumn," we see that he is still very race conscious. By the way, who the hell did end up with land? The Edmonds? Didn't they? Steve
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (49 of 57), Read 29 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:22 PM okay..Sam Fathers and Buck...I'll go back and correct them....thank you. typing faster than I'm thinking as usual. I should probably stay out of this discussion until after Thanksgiving, when I have the time to sit and post rationally. Trying to do 14 things at once and its not working. Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (50 of 57), Read 28 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:30 PM I'm not certain who ended up with the land because I think the point of the later part of the Bear is who ethically and morally owned the land, regardless of who legally owned the land. When you come right down to it, none of these people really owned the land. The land owned them. Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (51 of 57), Read 27 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:33 PM Beej, I think you just described a major, major theme of this novel. Really, I do. I'm not just sucking up. Steve
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (52 of 57), Read 33 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:36 PM Uh-huh...You're just saying that because of the Ipana toothpaste comment.. Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (53 of 57), Read 29 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:51 PM Somewhere in here it is said that even old Ikkemotubbe ceased to own the land at the moment he thought about selling it, or words to that effect. There is lot in here about defilement of the land, too. Civilization slowly claws away at the woods where the bear lived. Molly is upset with Lucas because he uses his divining machine to try to exploit the land rather than working it. Does not Ike refuse the land because his family history defiled it? I think that's what he is saying, although it's tough to tell. Steve
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (54 of 57), Read 31 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 05:49 PM I'm going to sit down tonight with The Bear after kids and our company are in bed and see what is really going on here. But I think the only one who owned that land was that bear and everyone else, in different ways, was a slave to that land. Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (55 of 57), Read 21 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:09 PM Steve, Yes...I remember reading that about Ikkemotubbe, too. I also read this: 'man was created to be overseer on earth...not to hold for himself and his descendents inviolable title forever, generation after generation, to the oblongs and squares of the earth, but to hold the earth mutual and intact in the communal anonymity of brotherhood..' A couple pages before this, Faulkner writes: 'Carothers McCaslin..Major de Spain..Thomas Sutpen..Ikkemotubbe knew in his turn that not even a fragment of it (the land) had been his to relinquish or sell. As for Isaac refusing the land, it says in the beginning of WAS: '(Isaac) owned no property and never desired to since the earth was no man's but all men's, as light and air and weather were.' Beej
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (56 of 57), Read 8 times Conf: Constant Reader From: S.F. Strahan Date: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 09:07 AM One of the things the bugged me at the end of GDM was, not just the defilement of the land, but my uncertainty and confusion about where they were camping--and where those graves were. They were not at the old location from The Bear. It says that they have to drive like a hundred miles to get to land that isn't developed or logged. Yet, it says is an earlier section of the book that the parcel of land where Sam and Lion were buried were not sold (yet??), but I'm still confused about it. I'm wondering if there's a supermarket or a logging camp on top of those graves, since it says that all the land has been developed or defiled to 'way out where they are camping at the end of the book--somewhere outside of Memphis. Did I miss something or did those graves just get overrun like the rest of the woods? ~~Susan~~ "Then would you read a Sustaining Book, such as would help and comfort a Wedged Bear in Great Tightness?" ---Winnie The Pooh
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (57 of 57), Read 4 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 12:08 PM This is a question that never occurred to me, Susan, and it is a very apt one. Could these graves be under a Quik Trip now? Steve
Topic: WAS: Wm. Faulkner (58 of 58), Read 9 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net Date: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 07:41 PM It's a good point. Where the Indians once roamed in western NC, there's a tourist attraction called "Tweetsie Railroad". Where men hunted in the Smokey Mountains in the late 1800s (and up to the mid 1900s) there's now Dollywood. Some land has been preserved, and oh if those trees could talk... It's a sobering thought that progress as we know it has deleted a way of life. But that's what Faulkner was getting at in this book, without condemning the process. That's what we know about the Grecian Urn. What's going to be over our own graves in the next century? Anne, planning on a scattering of ashes instead of a grave!
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (59 of 61), Read 17 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:14 PM Before we leave this one entirely, I did wish to mention that I found the relationship and exchanges between Lucas Beauchamp and his son-in-law George Wilkins to be hilarious. Humor of the sort right up my alley. For example, when he learned that George had not built the new gallery or dug the new well for Nat, Lucas knew what George had spent the money on without being told. Steve
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (60 of 61), Read 13 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org Date: Friday, November 23, 2001 01:16 PM "I see," the judge said. "Henry," he said to the other old man, the one with the toothpick, "have you got that whisky where you can pour it out?" "Yes, Judge," the other said. "And both those stills where you can chop them to pieces, destroy them good?" "Yes, Judge." "Then clear my office. Get them out of here. Get that jimber-jawed clown out of here at least." "He's talking about you, George Wilkins," Lucas murmured. "Yes sir," George said. "Sound like he is." Steve
Topic: The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (61 of 61), Read 10 times Conf: Constant Reader From: Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net Date: Friday, November 23, 2001 01:45 PM There was a lot of humor in this story, wasn't there,Steve? Even the parts where Molly was telling Edmonds that she wanted the divorce, to changing her mind in front of the judge, had me grinning. Lucas was trying to make up to Molly by buying her some candy: "Here," he said. "You ain't got no teeth left but you can still gum it." Anne