Topic:
Go Down, Moses: Wm. Faulkner (1 of 32), Read 46 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:44 PM
I am far from finished with this novel, but nonetheless, thought
I'd start a thread. Maybe then I can get some help in keeping
everything straight.
I'm a fast reader, but I now realize this is a book that has to be
read slowly. But this is good for me; I could use a lesson in
patience.
Should we take this story by story, or as a whole?
Beej
Topic:
Go Down, Moses: Wm. Faulkner (2 of 32), Read 43 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Sherri Kendrick sheval@hotmail.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 02:43 PM
For my peace of mind, I'd like to go story by story, I'm slowly
being buried by my CR TBR pile, not to mention my own TBR
pile!
Sherri
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (3 of 32), Read 46 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 09:06 PM
At first I considered 'Was' to be a lighthearted little story about a
spinster, a chase, a card game. But, I kept returning to it, over
and over, re-reading a page or two here and there. And the title
intrigued me..why 'Was'?
Then, well into my reading of 'The Fire and the Hearth' it dawned
on me that this story (WAS) was from well into the past...it WAS!
And I realized then, after several scattered re-readings, it has
tons of significant information that lead up to characters in
TFATH and, I'm certain, to those in the rest of the book.
One sentence, about Tomey Turl flew out at me during one of
these re-reads...'Mr. Hubert said he not only wouldn't buy
Tomey's Turl, he wouldn't have that damn white half-McCaslin on
his place as a gift.'
I began to try and sort out the genealogy and I THINK Tomey's
Turl is Uncle Buck's and Uncle Buddy's half brother.
As I continued into The Fire and The Hearth (I won't get into that
one yet. I'll wait until we're done discussing WAS)..I began to
see the importance of 'Was', especially as to how it deals with
the division of black and white within a family, and I had an
epiphany about this family, that it is basically an allegory for the
South as a whole, with all its racial division and relations.
Faulkner writes of the McCaslins, but as a whole, is really writing
about the deep South.
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (4 of 32), Read 47 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 13, 2001 09:14 PM
(Boy, I hope that made sense! But, I really do believe WAS is
not as fluffy and lighthearted as it seems to be at first glance...I
think Faulkner sneaks in lots of vital info within this story.)
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (5 of 32), Read 56 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:32 AM
It made perfect sense, and you're right on, Beej. This family
tree confirms what you figured out independently. (Although,
you're not supposed to know about the incest until later. That's
kind of a spoiler. Sorry.)
Busy, busy here but I will try to contribute something decent to
the discussion soon.
Steve
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (6 of 32), Read 52 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:05 PM
Oh, don't worry about spoilers, at least on my account. I'm just
so happy to have this McCaslin genealogy!
Thank you for taking the time from your busy work schedule to
post that. It will make things SO much easier for me. (now I
don't have to sit down with paper and pen and draw little
connecting lines between characters!)
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (7 of 32), Read 54 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:22 PM
Which all raises this question. If one's father enters into a union
with a woman other than one's mother, which union produces a
daughter, that daughter is clearly one's half sister. However, if
the father then enters into a union with that daughter (his
daughter), which union produces a son, then what is the nature
of one's relationship with that son?
My "Family Tree" computer program, which usually sheds great
light on such questions, doesn't allow for this. In fact it
scrambles up when I try to feed this data into it. I guess "half
brother" is going to have to do.
Steve
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (8 of 32), Read 53 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Dale Short dshort@bham.rr.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:29 PM
Steve: You need to get the special Faulkner edition of the
"Family Tree" software. Same as the original, except that the
tree doesn't fork.
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (9 of 32), Read 42 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 05:39 PM
Man, that family tree is fascinating! So, Lucius had sex with the
slave Eunice, who gave birth to his daughter, Tomasina. Then
Lucius had sex with Tomasina, and she gave birth to his
son,Tomey's Turl.
I gather Eunice was not Lucius' slave as she passes on to
Tomey's Turl the surname of the Beauchamp family. Yet, the
slave by whom he has a daughter and a grandson carries the
McCaslin name. Therefore, she must have been Lucius' slave.
But, Tomey's Turl's grandmother was not Lucius McCaslin's
slave..interesting. And Eunice was married to the slave,
Thucydus but there doesn't seem to be any children from that
marriage.
Okay, got it. I think.
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (10 of 32), Read 27 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 06:03 PM
Steve,
Thanks for the tree. I'll be referring to it alot, I'm sure!
It's going to be hard to separate out each story, I think. In
THATF, I was stymied by Edmonds' concern that Lucius had the
family blood by a woman before he, himself, had it through a
male relative. (Am I getting this right? I don't have the book
near by.)
Was this hinted at in WAS? Mercy, I gotta go back to that family
tree and study it a bit. Then reread. This is not going to be
easy...
An aside note...I was in the library today, checking out the
Faulkner selections. I picked up SARTORIS (which sounds like it
ought to be read early on to get some of the genealogy down!)
As I read the opening paragraph (sentence?) I realized how
captivated I am by his writing, his thought process, and his flow
of words. It's a beauty to savor. I'm going to be reading lots of
his stuff in the year to come, i can tell.
Anne
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (11 of 32), Read 28 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Wednesday, November 14, 2001 06:25 PM
Anne, I need to go check something out again in that family
tree, because obviously Lucas' bloodline to the McCaslins is from
the female side, too..through Lucius' black
daughter/granddaughter.
It is going to be difficult to separate WAS from THE FIRE AND
THE HEARTH.
Reading Faulkner is like being transported into a modern
Genesis! All that begetting!
I agree..Faulkner is utterly fascinating.
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (12 of 32), Read 31 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:43 AM
My own thoughts about one's initial, and it some cases ongoing,
confusion in reading this book.
In the second section of "The Bear," Ike McCaslin labors over
the old family records of slave ownership and from clues he
finds there figures out this incest thing. Precisely the same
process that you have undertaken, Beej.
But the point is that that section is one of the most difficult of all
for readers to follow and understand. It seems to me that in this
book Faulkner sometimes uses a very difficult style to replicate
in his reader the very same problem that his own character has
of grasping what has gone on in the past.
Make sense at all?
This reminds me of a story about a frustrated reader who
confronted Faulkner with the fact that she had read one of his
novels three times and still couldn't understand it. Faulkner's
response: read it a fourth time.
Steve
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (13 of 32), Read 32 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:51 AM
It certainly does make sense, Steve. Faulkner forces his readers
to replicate the difficulty his character experiences in
deciphering this family's genealogy. And, though frustrating and
complicated, I find it to be absolutely fascinating. To me, this
family is as real as my own. It becomes increasingly difficult for
me to remember this is FICTION!
So far, the story that has most hit me in the pit of my stomach is
'Pantaloon in Black.' But..again a lesson in patience for me.. I'll
wait to get into it.
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (14 of 32), Read 30 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:02 PM
In that second section of "The Bear," there is dialogue between
Ike McCaslin and a friend (ashamed to say the identity of this
guy escapes me). It is very difficult to sort this out initially.
I ended up returning the library's copy and purchasing a cheap
paperback edition. Then I took a red hi-liter and highlighted the
"he said"'s that referred to Ike. I took a blue hi-liter and
highlighted the "he said"'s that referred to the other guy. The
things we do for love! But it was the only damned way I could
figure to noodle out that conversation.
It is important though. That conversation is central to the book.
Steve
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (15 of 32), Read 31 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:02 PM
Maybe we should move on to 'The Fire and the Hearth' now.
There's so much that is told to us in that one and I'm anxious to
get into it.
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (16 of 32), Read 34 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:06 PM
I think I'll follow suit with your marker idea, Steve. I
remembered you had suggested that I buy a little paperback of
my own so I could mark it up, and I did that. Thanks!
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (17 of 32), Read 27 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 01:04 PM
Ike McCaslin's wife is a bitch. (There is another word I would
rather use and would use in conversation, but in the interest of
the sensibilities of all present, I have restrained myself from
writing it here.)
Steve
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (18 of 32), Read 17 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf dan1066@yahoo.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 08:12 PM
"Once a Bitch always a Bitch, what I say."
Dan
It's OK--they're all smoking!
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (19 of 32), Read 21 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 08:59 PM
To step back a minute to WAS; This was still the time of the
gentle South..here we have Miss Sophonsiba who wishes to win
Uncle Buck for her beau. She offers him a toddy and asks him if
he would like to see how she used to sweeten her daddy's
toddy. She proceeds to lift the toddy and take a sip of it before
handing it back to Uncle Buck. did she win Uncle Buck? No. He
won her.
In a card game.
In fact, he won her in the same game where he won the slave
Tennie. This tells me that women were considered as property.
Maybe a bit more important than slaves, but not much.
Tomey's Turl...it took me awhile to figure out his name, but a
look at the family tree tells us his real name was Terrill. He was
the son of Tomasina...hence the name Tomey's 'Turl'!
I have to mention 'The Bear.' I'm still reading it but I really need
to know something. Without going into details, is the bear a
symbol for something else?
I have this wild idea in my head about that.
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (20 of 32), Read 23 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 09:28 PM
Why does there seem to be this competition between Buck and
Buddy, and Tomey's Turl? They have plenty of slaves and they
know where Tomey's Turl is headed. Yet, the competition of the
chase seems more important than bringing a slave home. Do
they feel threatened by Tomey's Turl because of this double
McCaslin heritage? Afterall, it was this very heritage that set
Tomey's Turl's grandson, Lucas, apart from the other blacks.
Buck and Buddy had to know the story behind Tomey's heritage.
Even Mr. Hubert knew about that.
And, come to think of it, wasn't Tomey's Turl's family originally
from the Beauchamp plantation? How did he end up belonging to
the McCaslins?
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (21 of 32), Read 20 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 09:38 PM
Okay, I just looked at the family tree...Tomasina obviously died
when she gave birth to Tomey's Turl..or soon after. I bet Lucius
brought the baby to his property after that..maybe out of a
sense of paternal obligation?
Boy, I hope these questions are answered in 'The Bear.'
Beej
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (22 of 32), Read 20 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net
Date:
Thursday, November 15, 2001 11:42 PM
I'm starting THE BEAR tonight. I'm in for a ride, I'm sure. Start
any other discussions wherever and whenever you'd like, gang!
Anne
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (23 of 32), Read 42 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 08:01 AM
Anne, I know I'm ready to move on to 'THE FIRE AND THE
HEARTH.'..
One more thing before we leave 'WAS.' Early on we read about
the fox being chased though the house by the dogs. In fact, we
hear about this in the same paragraph where we hear Tomey's
Turl has run away again. Uncle Buddy begins to 'bellow like a
steam boat blowing' as he hits everything in sight with a stick.
Faulkner ends this paragraph with..it was a good race.
At the end of the story, when Tomey's Turl is captured and
everyone is back home, we again read about the fox, who has
escaped to the roof of the house. Faulkner says: It was a fine
race while it lasted.
Obviously, the fox, Tomey's Turl and the chase are tied in
together. And I have a theory that seems to hold through all
these stories. I think Faulkner uses animals as a symbol for
people and situations. Not just the fox, but also the dogs, the
bear, and even deer.
Referring to the fox, Uncle Buddy says:
"What in damn's hell do you mean casting that damn thing (the
fox) with all the dogs right in the same room?"
I wonder if Faulkner really means this to be directed to
Lucius. The fox (the bear?) as symbol for the mixing of
white blood with black, the dogs as a symbol for the white
branch of the family and the chase the dogs must continue
to run in order to keep the black/white status quo where
they feel it should be.
I know this seems off the wall, but I've read all the stories
so far from this perspective and it works...even within the
title of the novel, Go Down, Moses. Old Moses was a dog,
right?
And I'm certain the white branch of this family, especially
during immediate post-slavery days, considered the
mingling of their white blood with black blood as a
downward slide.(how awful and uncomfortable it is to
discuss 'old-south' racial prejudice, but I don't see how to
honestly discuss this book by playing 'ostrich' and skirting
that prejudice..) Hence the title, Go Down, Moses. (though
I'm sure this is meant to be taken foremost as 'go down into
history', not to mention all the connotations of the black
spiritual song by the same title.)
To me, the final synopsis of WAS would be, it doesn't
matter how well you run the race, baby. It's all the luck of
the draw.
Beej
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (24 of 32), Read 28 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 09:53 AM
There are, first and foremost, two themes I absolutely loved in
this story. One is the hearth fire, an eternal flame, so to speak,
first kindled on Lucas' and Molly's wedding night, stoked with
care so as to never extinguish, even through warm Mississippi
summer nights, the thin plume of 'supper smoke' above the
chimney and visible from the fields meaning more to Lucas than
we can know.
Second is Molly, herself. She is old. Molly, tiny and shrunken,
sitting on the porch smoking her corncob pipe, carries the crux
of the entire story, I believe. Not only does the outcome of
TFATH revolve around Molly, but all of what is symbolized by
those two babies..one white, the other black, being
simultaneously suckled, is TREMENDOUSLY significant.
Beej
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (25 of 32), Read 17 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 04:19 PM
Beej,
I love your insights and ideas. Keep them coming! I'm a
face-value type reader, and usually don't pick up well on
symbolism unless it literally smacks me in the face.
I do, though, agree about the animal-human representations. As
I read THE BEAR it comes even clearer.
Molly's request for a divorce from Lucas over the money-hunting
was touching. That machine represented the root of all evil to
her, and her fear that it would taint her daughter Nat was as
profound as her realization that she would lose Lucas forever
over it. She was an amazing woman.
As I go back and skim sections I find so much that I missed or
forgot. The depth of these stories is mind boggling.
Anne
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (26 of 32), Read 19 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 04:37 PM
Anne, you have absolutely no idea how much your post meant
to me because I ran a search on symbolism=animals=Faulkner
and came up with pretty much nothing at all to support my little
theory..so figured I made an a** out of myself once again on
the net.
I'm still not sure I didn't with that. Oh, well.
I saw in a book a handwritten outline for the McCaslin family
that Faulkner made..it was incredible! In fact, it resembled a
map with dozens and dozens of roads.
Beej
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (27 of 32), Read 19 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 04:51 PM
Anne, I can't figure out why Molly left Lucas to go live with
Edmonds rather than simply taking the baby back to her home.
Any ideas?
Beej
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (28 of 32), Read 21 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 05:49 PM
Sheesh, Beej, when I was teaching I'd have given my right arm
for a few students willing to go out on a limb and make an a**
out of themselves with their own ideas, instead of paraphrasing
the book back at me.
Ruth
"I don't have a favorite song. I only have the song I'm singing
today" Berenice Reagon
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (29 of 32), Read 21 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Edward Houghton eddh@pacbell.net
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 07:25 PM
ANNE, BEEJ
I had the feeling years ago, that the big dog in THE BEAR was
an embodiment of a great knight of long ago. He comes out of
nowhere, seems to be totally independent, and his only purpose
in life is chasing that damned bear. Like the knights of old who
were forever "questing".
Just a thought that's been kicking around in the deeper recesses
of my gray matter.
EDD
"Here she took off her two bracelets, and gave them to the old
woman who was called the angel of death, and who was to
murder her......"
A VIKING FUNERAL, A.D. 922 as observed by Ibn Fadlan, an
envoy from the Caliph of Baghdad.
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (30 of 32), Read 25 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 09:20 PM
I was so completely convinced I had it right with that symbolism
that I spent a good hour searching the web for anything that
might corroborate it. I wasn't successful at all, but did find
many, many incredible Faulkner sites.
I also came upon this interesting little interpretation of The Bear
written by Brian Bedard from The South Dakota Review:
'The sad truth of the matter is that "The Bear" is an obituary for
the last Republican in America. Consider the following evidence
carefully, and you will become extremely reluctant to return to
traditional interpretations.
1.The bear is a rugged individualist.
2.The bear is a short-tempered patriarch who has had things his
own way for a long, long time.
3.The bear believes in States' Rights.
4.The bear's wife is a shadowy figure.
5.The bear has no interest in unions of any kind.
6.The bear has survived several assassination attempts by
unwashed and deranged democrats.
I rest my case.'
Beej
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (31 of 32), Read 19 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Friday, November 16, 2001 09:45 PM
Edd, I think there is just so much symbolism in this book that it
almost invites the reader to interpret however it most works on
an individual level.
I do like your idea of the dog as the great knight, tho.
Beej
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (32 of 32), Read 23 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net
Date:
Saturday, November 17, 2001 06:22 PM
Beej,
I just did a quick reread of the scene where Molly leaves Lucas
and then returns with Zack's child, and darned if I can figure out
why she stayed on with Zack in the first place.
Did he ask her to stay and she felt obliged? Was there an affair?
Was it simply an expectation of the times? Funny that Lucas had
to go and tell Zack he wanted her home. Why'd it take him so
long to demand it?
Anne
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (33 of 37), Read 11
times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Felix Miller felix3rd@bellsouth.net
Date:
Monday, November 19, 2001 09:54 PM
I have always enjoyed GDM, in all its Byzantine
generational complexity. For those of you interested in the
use of real characters in Faulkner's fiction, a study of the
contributions of Phil Stone to Faulkner's stories published
a few years ago might be interesting. Phil Stone: A
Vicarious Life examines the use of Stone family stories by
Faulkner in GDM, among others. Especially interesting is
the story of the Stone forbearers Amodeus and
Theophilus, (Buck and Buddy,) twins living in Lafayette
(Yokanawptha) County. Don't have the author's name
handy, but I believe the book was published by LSU
Press.
O the Book/ Of the Dead, and the dead bright sun on the
page/ Where the team stands ready to explode/ In all
directions with Time...
Felix Miller
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (34 of 37), Read 13
times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Monday, November 19, 2001 10:17 PM
Thanks, Felix. I ran a search and found this:
Phil Stone of Oxford: A Vicarious Life
By Susan Snell
Athens: University of Georgia Press, 1991
xi, 399 pages
ISBN: 0-820-31296-7
Beej
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (35 of 37), Read 11
times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Felix Miller felix3rd@bellsouth.net
Date:
Monday, November 19, 2001 09:56 PM
I have always enjoyed GDM, in all its Byzantine
generational complexity. For those of you interested in the
use of real characters in Faulkner's fiction, a study of the
contributions of Phil Stone to Faulkner's stories published
a few years ago might be interesting. Phil Stone: A
Vicarious Life examines the use of Stone family stories by
Faulkner in GDM, among others. Especially interesting is
the story of the Stone forbearers Amodeus and
Theophilus, (Buck and Buddy,) twins living in Lafayette
(Yoknapatawpha) County. Don't have the author's name
handy, but I believe the book was published by LSU
Press.
O the Book/ Of the Dead, and the dead bright sun on the
page/ Where the team stands ready to explode/ In all
directions with Time...
Felix Miller
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (36 of 37), Read 11 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:05 AM
Cass Edmonds! Cass Edmonds! Why couldn't I remember
that?
Anyway, I was very puzzled upon first reading "Was"
about this business of Buck and Buddy living in the cabins
while the black folks lived in the big house on the
plantation. How can this be explained other than as some
sort of expiation by Buck and Buddy for the past? Later, in
"The Bear" we find that Buck and Buddy had actually set
the slaves free.
But the social code still held then. The blacks still act like
slaves (even though they can freely slip out the back door
of the big house after the front door is locked at night).
Tomey's Turl refuses to accept his freedom. Buck and
Buddy regard him as less than human and certainly not as
a brother. Last but not least, there is that very troubling
entry in the slave ledgers by Buddy concerning Eunice's
suicide upon learning of her daughter's pregnancy by
Lucius to the effect of, "Whoever heard of a nigger killing
himself?"
Steve
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (37 of 37), Read 10
times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:16 AM
Anne, here's my take on your questions.
Molly stayed with the baby at Zack's because Zack felt he
had a right to demand this. She did, too, and so did Lucas
initially. We don't know whether there was sex there, and
the uncertainty of this tortures Lucas, too. Lastly, Lucas
was black. He simply had to build up his determination not
to accept this and his resolve to go demand Molly's return.
Confronting the white man in this fashion was a big deal
with potentially big consequences.
But here we see a stark contract between Lucas and
Tomey's Turl, his father. Lucas ain't playing the Sambo
anymore.
That's the way I see it anyway.
Steve
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (38 of 38), Read 5
times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:25 AM
Oh, there's another thing that's interesting as we sort out
the facts of this family in "The Bear." The whole southern
paternal system backfires on the McCaslin family. Ike is
the last of the white paternal line. (The Edmonds are
descendants of a daughter of Lucius.) When he renounces
his patrimony and does not have children in the process
because of his bitch wife, there's an end to that.
The only remaining McCaslin descendant in the paternal
line is Lucas Beauchamp, a black man.
Steve
Topic:
Was: Wm. Faulkner (39 of 57), Read 26 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:57 AM
Why is it so easy to forget that Tomey's Turl is a
quadroon? He is three-quarters white!
Steve
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (40 of 57), Read 23 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:00 AM
The main house was an 'almost barn like edifice.' The
slaves were 'herded willynilly', As they returned in the
evening 'the white men counted them.'
it sounds to me as tho the main house had become a barn
and the ex-slaves were treated like cattle.
I'm trying to sort out the chronology was to when Buddy
and Buck moved into the cabin. I'm not very good at this,
but they moved right after Lucius was buried, in 1837. it
seems that the first slave was freed in 1856...so the
slaves weren't freed for another 19 years after they were
moved into the main house. (I'm trying to just piece things
together here.)
Could it be that, not only the drowning, but also this move
into the cabin and the freeing of these slaves all might
have something to do with knowledge of the incest? Did
Bucky and Buddy know that Lucius had sex with his own
daughter?
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (41 of 57), Read 21 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:31 AM
Gosh, it never occurred to me that Buddy and Buck did not
know. They had to know, didn't they? Everybody knew, I
think. The neighbor refers to Tomey's Turl as "that damn
white half-McCaslin."
But I could be wrong. If so, let me know.
Steve
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (42 of 57), Read 23 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:38 AM
No, no, I see your question. Did they know it was incest?
Did they know that Tomasina was Eunice's daughter by
their father? I don't know if they knew that.
Steve
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (43 of 57), Read 27 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:46 AM
I'm so confused I couldn't let anybody know anything at
this point. In fact, i'm going to re-read this entire section
over again.
I thought it said that, according to the ledger, Bucky and
Buddy recorded Thucydus as Tomasina's father. I'm
wondering if they knew Lucius fathered Tomey's Turl but
were unaware he had also fathered Tomasina.
Eunice was purchased in 1807..the twins were only 8
years old. They were only 11 when Tomasina was born...
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (44 of 57), Read 27 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:48 AM
yep...you posted as I was writing, but that's what I meant.
I have this niggling feeling the answer is in here
somewhere and that it might be important.
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (45 of 57), Read 27 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:00 PM
I think Lucas Beauchamp knew. Tomey's Turl may have
known, but I'm pretty sure Lucas did know. And I think he
felt that land was rightly his.
I'm going to go back and read THE FIRE AND THE HEARTH
again..It think I missed a lot of significance in some of the
stuff Faulkner tells us in there.
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (46 of 57), Read 33 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:38 PM
This is what I'm trying to work out in my mind...Buck and
Buddy moved out of that house after Lucius died. Lucius'
will was included in the ledgers. In this will was left 'a
thousand-dollar legacy to the son of this unmarried
slave-girl'. Lucius also had a daughter by a slave; this child
has no bearing on the story, except to say, of his children
by the slaves, Lucius seemed to single out Tomey's Turl for
an inheritance.
At the time of Tomey's Turl's birth, Buddy and Buck seemed
to be confirmed bachelors. in Lucius' mind, there didn't
seem to be any male heirs in the future...until Tomey's
Turl, the son of a slave, was born.
Is all this really a question of who is entitled to this land?
And we haven't even touched on Sam Father's heritage.
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (47 of 57), Read 29 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:43 PM
You mean you don't know Parent's parents?
Ruth
Qui mangia bene, mangia Italiano
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (48 of 57), Read 28 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:16 PM
Beej, I really don't wish to sound picky, but I am sure you
intend Sam Fathers, not "Sam Parent," although clearly he
is the emotional parent of Ike.
Also, I think it is just Uncle Buck not Bucky. Bucky was a
beaver in the old Ipana toothpaste commercial.
Now, having sounded like a jerk even though I didn't
intend to, your question about entitlement to the land is
very apt. I don't understand whether there was a
patrimony system at work here, or if the eldest male heir
was only usually favored in Wills, but clearly the male line
was very important. Either way, if Ike truly felt as badly
about this mess as he claims, he should have given the
land to the Beauchamps. But when we see him in his old
age in "Delta Autumn," we see that he is still very race
conscious.
By the way, who the hell did end up with land? The
Edmonds? Didn't they?
Steve
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (49 of 57), Read 29 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:22 PM
okay..Sam Fathers and Buck...I'll go back and correct
them....thank you.
typing faster than I'm thinking as usual.
I should probably stay out of this discussion until after
Thanksgiving, when I have the time to sit and post
rationally. Trying to do 14 things at once and its not
working.
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (50 of 57), Read 28 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:30 PM
I'm not certain who ended up with the land because I
think the point of the later part of the Bear is who ethically
and morally owned the land, regardless of who legally
owned the land.
When you come right down to it, none of these people
really owned the land.
The land owned them.
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (51 of 57), Read 27 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:33 PM
Beej, I think you just described a major, major theme of
this novel. Really, I do. I'm not just sucking up.
Steve
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (52 of 57), Read 33 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:36 PM
Uh-huh...You're just saying that because of the Ipana
toothpaste comment..
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (53 of 57), Read 29 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 01:51 PM
Somewhere in here it is said that even old Ikkemotubbe
ceased to own the land at the moment he thought about
selling it, or words to that effect.
There is lot in here about defilement of the land, too.
Civilization slowly claws away at the woods where the
bear lived. Molly is upset with Lucas because he uses his
divining machine to try to exploit the land rather than
working it.
Does not Ike refuse the land because his family history
defiled it? I think that's what he is saying, although it's
tough to tell.
Steve
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (54 of 57), Read 31 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 05:49 PM
I'm going to sit down tonight with The Bear after kids and
our company are in bed and see what is really going on
here.
But I think the only one who owned that land was that
bear and everyone else, in different ways, was a slave to
that land.
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (55 of 57), Read 21 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com
Date:
Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:09 PM
Steve, Yes...I remember reading that about Ikkemotubbe,
too. I also read this:
'man was created to be overseer on earth...not to hold for
himself and his descendents inviolable title forever,
generation after generation, to the oblongs and squares of
the earth, but to hold the earth mutual and intact in the
communal anonymity of brotherhood..'
A couple pages before this, Faulkner writes:
'Carothers McCaslin..Major de Spain..Thomas
Sutpen..Ikkemotubbe knew in his turn that not even a
fragment of it (the land) had been his to relinquish or sell.
As for Isaac refusing the land, it says in the beginning of
WAS:
'(Isaac) owned no property and never desired to since the
earth was no man's but all men's, as light and air and
weather were.'
Beej
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (56 of 57), Read 8 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
S.F. Strahan
Date:
Wednesday, November 21, 2001 09:07 AM
One of the things the bugged me at the end of GDM was,
not just the defilement of the land, but my uncertainty and
confusion about where they were camping--and where
those graves were. They were not at the old location from
The Bear. It says that they have to drive like a hundred
miles to get to land that isn't developed or logged. Yet, it
says is an earlier section of the book that the parcel of
land where Sam and Lion were buried were not sold
(yet??), but I'm still confused about it. I'm wondering if
there's a supermarket or a logging camp on top of those
graves, since it says that all the land has been developed
or defiled to 'way out where they are camping at the end
of the book--somewhere outside of Memphis.
Did I miss something or did those graves just get overrun
like the rest of the woods?
~~Susan~~
"Then would you read a Sustaining Book, such as would
help and comfort a Wedged Bear in Great Tightness?"
---Winnie The Pooh
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (57 of 57), Read 4 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Wednesday, November 21, 2001 12:08 PM
This is a question that never occurred to me, Susan, and it
is a very apt one. Could these graves be under a Quik Trip
now?
Steve
Topic:
WAS: Wm. Faulkner (58 of 58), Read 9 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net
Date:
Wednesday, November 21, 2001 07:41 PM
It's a good point. Where the Indians once roamed in
western NC, there's a tourist attraction called "Tweetsie
Railroad". Where men hunted in the Smokey Mountains in
the late 1800s (and up to the mid 1900s) there's now
Dollywood. Some land has been preserved, and oh if
those trees could talk...
It's a sobering thought that progress as we know it has
deleted a way of life. But that's what Faulkner was
getting at in this book, without condemning the process.
That's what we know about the Grecian Urn.
What's going to be over our own graves in the next
century?
Anne, planning on a scattering of ashes instead of a
grave!
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (59 of 61), Read 17 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, November 23, 2001 12:14 PM
Before we leave this one entirely, I did wish to mention that I
found the relationship and exchanges between Lucas
Beauchamp and his son-in-law George Wilkins to be hilarious.
Humor of the sort right up my alley.
For example, when he learned that George had not built the new
gallery or dug the new well for Nat, Lucas knew what George
had spent the money on without being told.
Steve
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (60 of 61), Read 13 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Steve Warbasse swarbasse@iowabar.org
Date:
Friday, November 23, 2001 01:16 PM
"I see," the judge said. "Henry," he said to the other old man,
the one with the toothpick, "have you got that whisky where you
can pour it out?"
"Yes, Judge," the other said.
"And both those stills where you can chop them to pieces,
destroy them good?"
"Yes, Judge."
"Then clear my office. Get them out of here. Get that
jimber-jawed clown out of here at least."
"He's talking about you, George Wilkins," Lucas murmured.
"Yes sir," George said. "Sound like he is."
Steve
Topic:
The Fire and the Hearth: Wm. Faulkner (61 of 61), Read 10 times
Conf:
Constant Reader
From:
Anne Wilfong anne.wilfong@gte.net
Date:
Friday, November 23, 2001 01:45 PM
There was a lot of humor in this story, wasn't there,Steve? Even
the parts where Molly was telling Edmonds that she wanted the
divorce, to changing her mind in front of the judge, had me
grinning. Lucas was trying to make up to Molly by buying her
some candy: "Here," he said. "You ain't got no teeth left but you
can still gum it."
Anne