Why is Walter Kaufmann so successful? First, his version has a rhythmic drive which is very close to Goethe's; second, he transmits a very important quality about the language of Faust: that it is packed with material of every kind--information, ideas, wit. These are all communicated with immense energy and a warmth of imagination, which... never succumbs to pedantry or showing off...

Stephen Spender, New York Times Book Review

 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (1 of 41), Read 125 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
     Thursday, August 01, 2002 02:08 PM 


Today is the official beginning of the Faust discussion.
Unfortunately, I'm way behind on this one. I hope someone else
can start the discussion. I'm looking forward to reading the notes.

Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (2 of 41), Read 118 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Friday, August 02, 2002 04:59 PM 


Ann, I'm way behind too. I have the Jarrell translation which is
excellent. However, I can only read it when I can really
concentrate, not when the TV is on or there are other extraneous
stimuli so I'm going even slower than usual. 

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (3 of 41), Read 118 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com 
 Date: 
     Friday, August 02, 2002 07:43 PM 


I've got about a hundred pages to go yet -- but I'm reading this
the way I read Beowulf the first time through it -- I'm just going
tearing right along like it's just any, old saga. What leaps out gets
a tic or something and I keep going. When I get to the end I'll
likely turn right around and go through it again immediately with
a bit more thought as the discussion unfolds. It worked with
Beowulf -- hope it works with Faust {g}. 

SO far it's got me well in its grip -- doesn't seem all that difficult
in some respects but then in others -- it should be an interesting
discussion is all I can say and I'm looking forward to a good one!
That old Mephisto is certainly a charmer -- but then that one
always is when he wants to be -- hmmmm.

Dottie

TC: There's a lot of reasons.
Her: Okay. Give me one, just one.
TC: Oh, honey, don't let me commence. from Hidden Gardens, in
Music for Chameleons ... and I might well add my own 'Oh,
honey, don't let me commence.' 

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (4 of 41), Read 122 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, August 04, 2002 02:11 PM 


I finished Faust this morning and, obviously, have lots of
questions. First of all, my translation was by Randall Jarrell. As I
researched the internet this morning, I found a review of it by the
NY Times that was less than complimentary. He basically felt that
Jarrell had lost the melody of the original and I certainly did find it
a bit stilted at times though very, very readable. I read positive
things about the Kaufman translation though which is the one I
believe most of you are reading.

Also, Jarrell's translation ends with Gretchen's death and the
confirmation that she will still be accepted in heaven. Is this
basically the first part of Faust? I've heard people say that they
found the second part unreadable. When I found a synopsis of the
entire story on-line, it proceeds through a description of Faust as
a great lord with vast land-holdings who is building a system of
dikes to reclaim the land and ultimately gives it back to the
people. I'm assuming that this is the second part.

As in the parts I read of Paradise Lost, I found Mephistopheles to
be the most entertaining character. I found him, in turns,
humorous and revolting which was probably Geothe's art. Faust,
on the other hand, left me exceedingly impatient, much as he
seemed to affect Mephistopheles.

I was surprised at what a tale of redemption this ultimately is. I
had somehow always had the impression that it was an
unforgiving story. The fact that both Gretchen and Faust (at the
end of part II) are forgiven despite their wanderings outside
accepted religious practice seems a lesson to those who would
choose to condemn.

I found a study guide that I thought some of you might like to dip
into at the site below:

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/hum_303/faust.html

Barb


 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (5 of 41), Read 119 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, August 04, 2002 11:36 PM 


I've been trying like the devil (no pun intended, honest!) to finish
this book, and I'm almost done.

I do not think Mephistopheles is charming and would not compare
him in the least bit to Milton's Satan. Mephistopheles is irritating
and annoying and he left everyone with a sense of dread. Milton's
Satan was not only charming, but deeply sensual. If I remember
right, most of us ladies here, found him to be extremely attractive
when we read Paradise Lost..the epitome of the irresistible bad
boy. i can resist Mephistopheles..tho I do find Faust rather, well,
interesting.


Beej

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (6 of 41), Read 117 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 05, 2002 07:51 AM 


If you had my edition with illustrations by Peter Sis, you would
find him even less attractive, Beej. He's portrayed as having a
skeleton face with skinny little arms and legs. I think I like
Mephistopheles because he is so fallible, not at all the invincible
God. He even loses in the end when I was sure he would prevail.

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (7 of 41), Read 111 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Marcy Vaughan vaughan@yahoo.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 05, 2002 09:34 PM 


I would not call Mephistopheles charming either, but I absolutely
love his irony! It provides a great contrast to Faust’s seriousness. 

Barb, thanks for providing the link to that study guide – boy, is
there a lot to mull over in this work!

I was wondering what everyone thought of the Wood and Cave
scene. The writer of the study guide says that Faust is practicing
self-delusion when he refuses to believe that Gretchen is a gift of
the Devil. That’s not how I took it. I thought Faust was sincere in
thanking God, not because he has successfully deluded himself,
but that it goes to what God said in the Prologue in Heaven about
Faust being God’s servant. As God’s servant, Faust would believe
that all good things come from above, not from the Devil. I think
Faust does love Gretchen at this point, and that he’s torn by
ambivalence between this unselfish love for her and his physical
desire for her. 

But if that is the case, then why does Faust say, “What must be
done, come let it be./ Let then her fate come shattering on my
head,/ And let her perish now with me” (lines 3363-3365). He
hasn’t slept with her yet, has he? (I know the writer of the study
guide thinks he has, but I don’t see it.) It’s as though he’s just
resigned to be her ruin. It’s hard to sympathize with him here,
though he refers to himself as “I, whom the gods hate and mock”
(line 3356). 

What do you all think of this scene, and think about Faust at this
point?

-Marcy 

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (8 of 41), Read 113 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 05, 2002 10:13 PM 


“What must be done, come let it be./ Let then her fate come
shattering on my head,/ And let her perish now with me” 

Marcy, I think Faust considers Gretchen to be already damned
and that the time on earth will only be filled with dread. I think his
wish is a sort of mercy killing wish. 

I agree with the writer of your guide, that Faust and Gretchen had
had sex by that time..and that she probably had conceived early
in their 'relationship.' If so, it really was God's mocking.

Mephistopheles wasn't charming, wasn't sensual, wasn't
handsome. But he sure was funnier than hell! He consistently
cracked me up. 



Beej

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (9 of 41), Read 119 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Marcy Vaughan vaughan@yahoo.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 05, 2002 11:34 PM 


Beej, 

If Faust and Gretchen had had sex by that time, then I’m not sure
how to interpret the end of the Martha’s Garden scene.
Mephistopheles has overheard Faust and Gretchen arrange a
meeting in Gretchen’s room that night, and he mentions it to
Faust, saying, “I have my pleasure in it, too” (line 3545). I
interpreted that to mean that Mephistopheles was looking forward
to their first sexual tryst, which would ensure their damnations. If
that’s not the case, do you think that Mephistopheles somehow
knew that Gretchen’s mother would die from the potion that Faust
has Gretchen give her mother so that they can safely meet in her
room? 

I also thought that they had not had sex together yet at this point
because Faust says, “Will there never be/ At your sweet bosom
one hour of rest/ When soul touches on soul and breast on
breast?” (lines 3502-3504). I guess I took the “never” literally,
but he may have just been impatient for the next time? But also,
I thought that she was agreeing to sleep with him at the end of
this scene because they had just had the discussion about his
relationship with Mephistopheles and allayed her fears. (As an
aside, don’t you just love how during this conversation she uses
Faust’s name, but Faust insists on only using epithets for her –
“dear child, ” “sweet doll,” etc. Was it just me, or did this strike
you as condescending?)

Could you tell me why you think they had already had sex, and
what you make of Mephistopheles’ anticipation at the end of the
scene?

-Marcy

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (10 of 41), Read 121 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 05, 2002 11:51 PM 


Marcy, After I read your post, I went back and read through the
section that led me to believe they had sex by that time. I think it
was Faust's little speech that began at 3189..he was obviously
seducing her, and when she left, he followed.

and then, immediately next, in WOOD AND CAVE, Faust says:

'exalted spirit, all you gave me, all
that I have asked. And it was not in vain
That amid flames you turned your face toward me.
You gave me royal nature as my own dominion,
Strength to experience her, enjoy her.'

But, he wanted more. First he wanted the physical relationship.
And I took it, that it was after he had that, that he fell in love with
her and wished to 'penetrate into her heart.'

This all precedes the section you cited, beginning with line 3360. 

There were a couple other passages said by Gretchen that
confirmed, in my mind anyway, that they'd had sex, but I think it
was alluded to more than stated outright. I'll look for those and
post them when I have a bit more time.
(I'm trying to understand this book blindly, with no guide at all, so
I could very well be wrong.)

Beej

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (11 of 41), Read 122 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Marcy Vaughan vaughan@yahoo.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 06, 2002 01:00 AM 


Beej, thanks for your response (and so promptly! – I guess I
assumed I was alone on the board this time of night…) I’ve
reread the sections starting from line 3189, and I’m still not sure,
but I feel like I’m starting to belabor the point. I thought the
distinction was important, but now I’m thinking it doesn’t really
matter. If he fell in love with her and then slept with her, he
knowingly and intentionally caused the ruin of someone he loved.
If he had sex with her and then fell in love with her, then that
means he lied when he said he loved her in order to seduce her
and cause her ruin. Either way, he doesn’t come out a prince in
this relationship…

But this is why I still think they hadn’t had sex yet – feel free to
skip it if you think I’ve beaten this point to death.
Gretchen says, “I am a poor, dumb child and cannot see/ What
such a man could find in me” (lines 3215-3216). If they had sex
when they ran off together in the previous scene (after line
3194), wouldn’t she have lost this naiveté and have known
exactly what “such a man” could find in her? Of course we don’t
know how much time has passed between the Garden Bower
scene and the Wood and Cave scene – perhaps they had an
encounter during this time? But during Faust’s initial speech in the
Wood and Cave scene, he says, “Alas, that man is granted
nothing perfect/ I now experience” (lines 3240-3241) – and this
imperfection in his happiness is his association with
Mephistopheles. If they had already had sex, and as a result he
thought that she was already damned, he would not have been
describing perfect happiness with the exception of only
Mephistopheles.

Marcy

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (12 of 41), Read 112 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 06, 2002 08:00 AM 


After reading your notes, Marcy and Beej, I've been rereading
those sections too. My impression is that Gretchen and Faust have
had sex between Chapters XIII and XIV though that seems a
very important event to simply allude to in this way. The scene in
Chapter XIII seems all coquetry, Gretchen is hiding in the
summerhouse, Faust finds her, Mephistopheles appears
immediately. However, at the opening of Chapter XIV, Faust is
giving thanks for the power to "feel and enjoy" her. Doesn't that
seem like a euphemism for sex?

This brings up my next question. I've been wondering at the
difference between my Jarrell translation and others. I think if I
can find a cheap used Kaufman translation, I'm going to buy it
just to have both sources. However, for now, I'm wondering if
"feel and enjoy" are Jarrell's words and not the translation that
others choose. My chapter XIV is entitled "Forest and Cavern"
rather than "Wood and Cave". However, those terms seem pretty
synonymous and not misleading. I'm going to post Jarrell's
translation of Faust's opening speech in Chapter XIV here. Would
one of you post Kaufman's (and any other translations that the
rest of you have) so we can compare them?

Faust (alone)

"Exalted spirit, you gave me all I asked.
Not in vain did you gaze to me in fire.
You gave me glorious Nature for a kingdom, 
The power to feel and enjoy her. You permit me
More than cold wondering visits, you permit me
To look into her heart as into a friend's
You lead before me the interminable line
Of living things, and teach me to know my brothers 
In the silent thicket, in the air, the water.
When the storm roars and crackles through the forest
And the giant pine, as it comes crashing down,
Strips off the neighboring branches, crushes 
The neighboring trunks, and the mountain echoes
With a dead hollow rumbling, to its fall,
You lead me to the shelter of this cavern--
My heart's last secret wonders are laid bare.
Softly, before my eyes, the pure moon rises;
From cliff and thicket the past's silvery forms
Drift by me, soothing the bitter joys of thought.

And, yet, alas! for mankind nothing is perfect--
I feel that now. You gave this rapture
That brings me nearer and nearer to the gods--
You gave me, to go with it, the companion
Whom I already cannot live without.
Not even though, cold, scornful, he degrades me
In my own eyes--with the breath of a word
Turns all your gifts to nothing. Busily
He fans within my breast a savage fire
For that bewitching image of a woman;
So from desire I stagger to enjoyment
And then, enjoying, languish for desire.

BTW, Marcy, I definitely think he is thanking God for bringing
these things to him. He even seems to be saying that God has
sent him Mephistopheles. When M appears at the end of his
speech, F says:

I wish that you had something more to do
Than bother me on one of my good days.

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (13 of 41), Read 111 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 06, 2002 08:16 AM 


Okay, now I've read the Faust study guide from the link I posted
above. It says that Faust is thanking the Earth Spirit that he has
conjured up earlier in the play. I need to go back and look at
that.

Also, the study guide says this in reference to our question as to
whether they've had sex at this point:

What clues are there in their dialogue that Faust has already
made love with her repeatedly? In lines 3334-3335 Faust
blasphemously proclaims that he is jealous when Gretchen goes
to Mass and consumes the wafer which Catholics believe is
transformed into the body of Christ. Mephistopheles answers him
with a clever erotic blasphemy of his own, based on Song of
Songs (known in some translations as "The Song of Solomon") 7:3
in which breasts are compared to twin deer. Mephistopheles is
saying that he is jealous of Faust when the latter enjoys Gretchen
with her blouse off. Readers who don't know their Bible
thoroughly will miss this clear statement that Gretchen and Faust
have already been making love. In fact, she is almost certainly
pregnant at this point, as we will discover later.

I certainly would have missed this bibilical reference. BTW, Jarrell
translates those lines from Mephistopheles as follows:

That's right, my friend! I've often envied you
That pair of twins that feeds among the lilies.

Barb 

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (14 of 41), Read 108 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 06, 2002 08:54 AM 


I just wrote a really loonnnng reply to your post, Barb, went to
check a reference you posted, went back to finish my post and it
was gone! Oh well, I'll brace myself with another cup of coffee
and see if I can remember all I had written.
I'll be back shortly.


Beej

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (15 of 41), Read 110 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:27 AM 


(Dang, it happened again!! But, I've just discovered I can go back
to a previous post by right clicking on that post and opening it in a
new window, all without closing out my posting window! I'll try it
AGAIN, for a third time!)


Beej

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (16 of 41), Read 106 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:06 AM 


I haven't read the guide for which you posted a link Barb, but I
agree with what you've quoted from it, so am relieved to know
I'm doing okay with my own thoughts! Whew!

I think one of the most important sections in this book is
Mephisto's speech, beginning with line 3282:

'A supernatural delight!
To lie on mountains (again, a reference to breasts, taken from
Songs of Solomon, OT) in the dew and night,
Embracing earth and sky in raptured reeling-
To swell into a god-in one's own feeling-
To probe earth's marrow with vague divination,
sense in your breast the whole work of creation,
With haughty strength enjoy, I know not what,
Then overflow into all things with love so hot,
Gone is all earthly inhibition,
And then the noble intuition-
of-need I say of what emission?'

Mephisto is being sarcastic and belittling with this 'emission'
reference, and we know Faust is aware of this by the one word he
immediately says: 'Shame!' But there's a whole lot more being
said. Somewhere (but I can't find the section. When I do, I'll post
it.) Gretchen talks about the confession she made prior to
meeting Faust. She says the priest seemed to have sensed she
had been with men sexually (and, this was before she knew
Faust). Couple that with the boasting and bragging of the men in
the tavern where we meet Gretchen's brother, and I tend to think
Gretchen was not sexually naive at all.

But, she had gone to confession, and had been forgiven her sins.
However, Mephisto states, in the speech I quoted above, that
Faust had swelled 'into a god-in one's own feeling-, that Faust had
enjoyed the' sense in his breast the whole work of creation,' not
to mention Mephisto'ss claim that Faust felt a 'vague divination."
And, my guess is that it wasn't the sins of the flesh that had
condemned either Faust or Gretchen (after all, Gretchen had
already been forgiven for the sins of the flesh..) but actually the
same sin that had condemned mephisto himself, to hell. the sin of
wanting to become or overpower God. Basically, the sin of
ultimate pride.

Marcy, you asked: 'Gretchen says, “I am a poor, dumb child and
cannot see/ What such a man could find in me” (lines 3215-3216).
If they had sex when they ran off together in the previous scene
(after line 3194), wouldn’t she have lost this naiveté and have
known exactly what “such a man” could find in her?'

I think Gretchen was fully aware of what men found in her,
physically. But, I think this was the first time a man had become
emotionally involved with her, and I think that's what puzzled her
so.


Beej

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (17 of 41), Read 90 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Marcy Vaughan vaughan@yahoo.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 06, 2002 02:55 PM 


Barb & Beej, I think you’ve both made some really good points,
and I had started to lean towards Barb’s idea that they had sex
between Chapters X111 and XIV. But then I noticed that on p.58,
in the description of the Wood and Cave scene, Kaufmann writes,
“Faust has fled lest he ruin Margaret’s life.” This reinforced my
belief that they had not yet had sex at this point; that Faust was
conflicted between his true love for her and his passionate desire
for her, which he knew if acted upon would ruin her, so he flees
and ponders the situation.

Beej, you said that Gretchen having sex with Faust would not lead
to her damnation because she could go to confession, as she has
done in the past, and be forgiven and saved. But I think that what
saves her in the end, from her sins of the flesh with Faust and the
killing of their baby, is her refusal to be rescued by a Faust to
whom Mephistopheles is indispensable. Also, I strongly disagree
that she has been with other men sexually before Faust. Her
tragedy unfolds by necessity from her naïve and innocent
character; she is seduced by Faust, and her seduction leads to
her downfall. I guess the confession you’re referring to is not the
one that Mephistopheles talks about in lines 2622-2626. He says,
“She’s so completely blemishless / That there was nothing to
confess.” Also, in the following scene Gretchen sings that song
about fidelity in love, which I think was supposed to reveal to us
her naiveté and idealism. 

-Marcy

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (18 of 41), Read 93 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 06, 2002 03:02 PM 


“She’s so completely blemishless / That there was nothing to
confess.” 

Marcy, I had completely forgotten that line! I stand corrected.


Beej

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (19 of 41), Read 91 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:56 PM 


I've found the section that made me believe Gretchen had
already had sex by the time she met Faust. It begins with line
3169, when she and Faust are in the garden, talking about the
day they met, as Gretchen was leaving the church after
confession.

Gretchen says:

'I was upset, I did not know such daring;
And no one could have spoken ill of me.
I thought that something in my bearing
Must have seemed shameless and unmaidenly.
He seemed to have the sudden feeling
That this wench could be had without much
dealing.
Let me confess, I didn't know that there
Were other feelings stirring in me, and they grew;
But I was angry with myself, I swear,
That I could not get angrier with you.'



My mistake arose from presuming the 'he' she referred to was
the confessor she had just left, but now I realize she was
referring to Faust and the fact that he so readily approached a
female he did not know.


Beej

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (20 of 41), Read 90 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, August 07, 2002 01:09 AM 


I am continuing reading an English version but have ordered the
Kaufman bi-lingual translation which should arrive hopefully this
week. I am very curios how translators do their job.

Ernie

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (21 of 41), Read 86 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, August 11, 2002 03:03 AM 


Finished the last of Faust yesterday -- haven't gone dabbling into
the excerpts from the second part as yet -- am likely to re-read
part one now instead.

Barb -- here's the opening Faust speech from the Wood and Cave
section --

Exalted spirit, all you gave me, all
That I have asked. And it was not in vain
That amid flames you turned your face toward me.
You gave me royal nature as my own dominion,
Strength to experience her, enjoy her. Not
The cold amazement of a visit only
You granted me, but let me penetrate
Into her heart as into a close friend's.
You lead the hosts of all that is alive
Before my eyes, teach me to know my brothers
In quiet bushes and in air and water.
And when the storm roars in the wood and creaks,
The giant fir tree, falling, hits and smashes
The neighbor branches and the neighbor trunks,
And from its hollow thud the mountain thunders,
Then you lead me to this safe cave and show
Me to myself, and all the most profound
And secret wonders of my breast are opened.
And when before my eyes the pure moon rises
And passes soothingly, there float to me
From rocky cliffs and out of dewy bushes
The silver shapes of a forgotten age,
And soften meditation's somber joy.
Alas, that man is granted nothing perfect
I now experience. With this happiness
Which brings me close and closer to the gods,
You gave me the companion whom I can
Forego no more, though with cold impudence
He makes me small in my own eyes and changes
Your gifts to nothing with a few words' breath.
He kindles in my breast a savage firs
And keeps me thirsting after that fair image.
Thus I reel from desire to enjoyment,
And in enjoyment languish for desire.

As I said -- I read this -- just went through at a good clip and not
a lot of mulling over -- now it's time to think as I go. This
particular speech is one favorite -- I'm somehow left with the idea
that this simply says -- yes, humans are a muddled mess, yes,
old Mephistopheles/Mephisto is good at the jobs he's doing and
yes, Faust made an agreement with him -- BUT God or good is
the ultimate power and makes the ultimate decision. That's what I
see as the crux of the tale at this point anyway -- may change
tack once I begin reading and thinking at the same time.

Interesting and thought provoking comments thus far everyone. 

Dottie

TC: There's a lot of reasons.
Her: Okay. Give me one, just one.
TC: Oh, honey, don't let me commence. from Hidden Gardens, in
Music for Chameleons ... and I might well add my own 'Oh,
honey, don't let me commence.' 

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (22 of 41), Read 84 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, August 11, 2002 11:21 AM 


Dottie, thanks so much for transcribing that section. Is it from the
Kaufman translation? I don't want to be prejudiced by the critics
I've read but I think I see what they were talking about. The
flyleaf of my edition says that his attempt was to make the
German poetry free, unrhymed poetry in English. However, I
think he may have lost something in the process. Could you read
the one I posted and yours and see what you think? And, I'd love
to hear from the rest of you too.

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (23 of 41), Read 59 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Jody Richael jodyrichael@cs.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, August 11, 2002 11:14 PM 


Hi Barb,

The only translation my library had for Faust was by George
Madison Priest. Based on the two excerpts posted the language in
Priest's translation sounds to me much more appropriate for the
time when it was written. The other two posts feel much more
modern. I enjoyed Priest's edition but am curious about the other
as well. FYI here is the same section from my book:

“Spirit sublime, thou gav’st me, gav’st me all
For which I prayed. Thou hast not turned in vain
Thy countenance to me in fire and flame. 
Thou gav’st me glorious nature as a royal realm,
The power to feel and to enjoy her. Not
Amazed, cold visits only thou allow’st;
Thou grantest me to look in her deep breast
Even as in the bosom of a friend. 
Thou leadest past a series of the living
Before me, teaching me to know my brothers 
In silent covert and in air and water.
And when the storm roars screeching through the forest,
When giant fir tree plunges, sweeping down
And crushing neighboring branches, neighboring trunks,
And at its fall the hills, dull, hollow, thunder:
Then leadest thou me to the cavern safe,
Show’st me myself, and my own heart becomes
Aware of deep mysterious miracles. 
And when before my gaze the stainless moon
Soothing ascends on high: from rocky walls
And from damp covert float and soar about me
The silvery forms of a departed world
And temper contemplation’s austere joy.
Oh, that for man naught perfect ever is,
I now do feel. Together with this rapture
That brings me near and nearer to the gods,
Thou gav’st the comrade whom I now no more
Can do without, though , cold and insolent,
He lowers me in my own sight, transforms 
With but a word, a breath, thy gifts to nothing.
Within my breast he fans with busy zeal
A savage fire for that fair, lovely form.
Thus from desire I reel on to enjoyment 
And in enjoyment languish for desire.”
(I haven't figured out how to do italics in here yet and they didn't
copy in from word.)

Jody

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (24 of 41), Read 57 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 12, 2002 07:32 AM 


Thank you, Jody! That really is lovely. My first impulse is that I
like that translation most of all as sheer poetry but I'm wondering
how I would have done reading the whole book. When was this
one published?

To do italics here, you just use these two symbols < and >,
putting an I inside them. Then, when you want the italics to stop,
you put the following inside them: /I. Does that make sense? You
do tons of commands the same way. You can get underlining by
using a U, bold type by using a B, etc. It's HTML language and
there's a website somewhere with lots more commands.

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (25 of 41), Read 55 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 12, 2002 07:35 AM 


Another thought, both the Kaufman and the Priest translations
read much like a psalm to me. Do you think that's intentional?

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (26 of 41), Read 60 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Jody Richael jodyrichael@cs.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 12, 2002 05:27 PM 


Thanks for the information on italics Barb. That will come in
handy. There is probably some information on that on this
website as well but I have two small children and when I can
manage to wrestle 10 minutes for myself I'm not apt to spend it
searching the web for formatting information! 

My Priest edition was published in 1952. I think it is entirely
possible it was meant to sound like the Psalms (although I have
no idea how the Psalms and the original would both compare in
German). Goethe certainly uses many Biblical references. He sets
it up similar to the Job story although it ends very differently -
eventhough in the end of the book Faust is still quoting Job by
wishing he had never been born. There are still alot of aspects
about this book I'm struggling to figure out. 

Jody

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (27 of 41), Read 58 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 12, 2002 06:24 PM 


I liked that translation a lot also -- it's very much a Biblical feel I
think -- and yes, psalm-like -- what a good description for this.

The Kaufmann is touted as the best or a very highly
recommended translation -- but I found it more modern as you
say. i think I wouldn't have been able to read it so quickly
otherwise -- but I would love to dive into Faust in that 1952
translation and may go looking for it just to do it.

And I had read the Job idea -- in the intro of the Kaufmann or
somewhere -- but in my reading through -- I only thought of the
similarity at one or two points and not in any way which really got
me comparing the two. I will pay more attention to that aspect
this time around. 

As with Beowulf -- I'm certainly glad I read this one here.

Dottie

TC: There's a lot of reasons.
Her: Okay. Give me one, just one.
TC: Oh, honey, don't let me commence. from Hidden Gardens, in
Music for Chameleons ... and I might well add my own 'Oh,
honey, don't let me commence.' 

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (28 of 41), Read 52 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Marcy Vaughan vaughan@yahoo.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:20 AM 


Jody, I’m glad you mentioned Goethe’s reference to the Book of
Job – it seems to me that this reference is made in order to
emphasize where the ideas in Faust deviate from traditional
religious beliefs. The wager that is made in The Prologue in
Heaven is not whether or not Faust remains pious, as in Job, but
whether Faust, no matter how much he is led astray by
Mephistopheles, "Remembers the right road throughout his quest"
(line 329). We’re not dealing here with traditional notions of right
and wrong, but an ethos of activity and vigor where the most
dangerous sin is inaction, or accepting any condition of life as
satisfactory. 

Another difference that struck me is that Satan of the Old
Testament tries to turn Job away from God by destroying his
health, family, and possessions, but Goethe's Mephistopheles tries
to ruin Faust by putting pleasure in his reach.

-Marcy

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (29 of 41), Read 46 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 13, 2002 08:31 AM 


I always think of the New Testament as bringing light and
forgiveness to the world. Goethe seems to take this process a
step further. Looked at from this perspective, Faust can almost be
seen as a step on the continuum to even more forgiving, less
judgemental views by some today (though our Old Testament
friends are still around).

I should stipulate here that my knowledge of the Bible is very
rudimentary gained from a childhood in church and limited
reading of it since.

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (30 of 41), Read 43 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 13, 2002 08:35 AM 


Jody,
I remember those days of two small children, struggling to find
time to read and, even harder, trying to concentrate among all of
the distractions. Please don't worry about such trivial things as
italics. Just come and talk to us when you can steal a few
minutes.

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (31 of 41), Read 42 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 13, 2002 09:01 AM 


This is the introduction for the study guide whose link I posted
above. I'm very interested to hear some reactions to it.

This work is rich in wonderful contradictions and conflicts. Faust:
A Tragedy is the title given his masterpiece by Johann Wolfgang
von Goethe. Yet it might almost as easily be described as a
musical comedy, in that it has many comic passages, features
many songs, and lacks a tragic ending. Faust himself is not a
classic tragic figure either. In fact, his characteristic yearning for
experience and knowledge created a type for the romantic age
still known as the Faustian hero, though he can easily seem more
of a villain than a hero; and the purported
villain--Mephistopheles--is one of the most likable characters in
the play. His yearnings draw him toward the heavens, yet he is
also powerfully attracted to the physical world. The book was
designed to be read rather than performed, yet many scenes are
wonderfully designed for effective stage presentation. 

It is useless to try to figure out what the "real" point of Faust is,
or which of the many views of life it presents is the correct one. It
is par excellence the Romantic masterwork precisely because it
explores a wide variety of polar opposites without resolving them.
Goethe has created a microcosm of life, trying to preserve its
complexity, its tensions, and its dynamism. Appreciating the
work's complexity and enjoying it should be your goal. 

One the most important tensions expressed in this work is
between learning and experience. Faust himself rejects
scholarship for life, but it would be a mistake to suppose that
Goethe unequivocally endorses this view. Mephistopheles, who is
usually both truthful and wise, warns him against this enthusiasm
for raw experience; and Goethe himself was a scholar and
bureaucrat who greatly valued the learning of the past and aimed
at joining the pantheon of classic writers. Faust is a part of
Goethe, but so is Mephistopheles.

I think because Goethe puts this story in a somewhat classical
setting, I expected the moral to be more clearcut and have been
struggling to find it. This synopsis helps me understand why I see
so many different conclusions. And, I love the idea of it being a
musical comedy (-:

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (32 of 41), Read 43 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Marcy Vaughan vaughan@yahoo.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:55 AM 


Barb, I thought you’d be interested in this portion of a letter
written by Goethe in 1827, responding to the inquiries of a reader
concerning the central “idea” of Faust: 

“They come and ask what idea I meant to embody in my Faust;
as if I knew myself and could inform them! ‘From heaven through
the world to hell,’ one might say in a pinch; but that is no idea but
the course of the action. And further: that the devil loses the
wager, and that a man continually striving from difficult errors
towards something better, should be redeemed, is an effective –
and, to many, a good enlightening – thought; but it is not an idea
that is the foundation of the whole and of every scene in
particular. Indeed, that would have been a fine thing had I
wanted to string such a rich, variegated, and extremely versatile
life, as I represented in Faust, on the meager thread of a single
central idea! […] My opinion is this: The more incommensurable
and incomprehensible for the understanding a poetic creation
may be, the better.”

-Marcy

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (33 of 41), Read 42 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Jody Richael jodyrichael@cs.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 13, 2002 11:49 AM 


I read the introduction in the study guide as well and I was
relieved when it said trying to find out the point was futile -
because I was struggling with it as well! 

Marcy - I like your thoughts about the ethos of activity and vigor
and the most dangerous sin being inaction. I think that
interpretation fits in the story very well. I'm not sure if Goethe
really believed that himself (as the study guide states also). 

The comparison with Job is very interesting. Job stays faithful to
the 'one true way'. Faust may always remember what the one
true way is, but what is the point of knowing it if you are not on
it? I think someone mentioned that Faust was still redeemed.
There is obviously still more storyline in Part II but I got the
impression that Faust was already doomed to live in hell with
Mephistopheles. Faust basically said he did not care what
happened to him in the next life as long as he got what he wanted
out of this life. I think it is interesting that Mephistopheles doesn't
really care what pleasure or treasure Faust wants - he knows
they will all ultimately ruin him. Why is that? Because ultimately
they are all purely selfish? 

Jody

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (34 of 41), Read 43 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Jody Richael jodyrichael@cs.com 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 13, 2002 11:51 AM 


One more thing - I found this quote on Faust.

Goethe makes the career of Faust as a whole emblematic of the
triumph of the persistent striving for the ideal over the temptation
to find complete satisfaction in the sense, and prepares the
reader for this interpretation by prefixing the "Prologue in
Heaven."

Jody

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (35 of 41), Read 31 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Marcy Vaughan vaughan@yahoo.com 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:11 AM 


Jody – In earlier versions of the Faust story the contract between
Faust and the Devil was a fixed term pact, and Faust was doomed
to live in hell with Mephistopheles. But in Goethe’s version, Faust
proposes a wager to Mephistopheles in place of the pact. As you
pointed out, Jody, Faust does say “he did not care what happened
to him in the next life as long as he got what he wanted out of this
life.” Immediately following this, however, Faust says that he
doubts Mephistopheles’ ability to fulfill his end of the bargain
(lines 1675-1687). It is then that Faust proposes the wager: if any
moment, however brief, is so charged with pleasure for him that
it extinguishes his restless urge to forever reach beyond the
illusory satisfaction of the moment, then that will be the day of his
death and he will serve Mephistopheles forever (lines 1692-1698).
You’re right that Mephistopheles doesn't care what particular
pleasure or treasure Faust wants – any will due, as long as it lulls
Faust into a sense of contentment, even for a moment, and his
striving ceases. (This relates directly to the quote you posted in
message #34.)

I’m not sure who’s reading part two, so I want to point out that
this would be a potential spoiler. ********Spoiler Alert*********
When Faust dies from natural causes at an old age,
Mephistopheles says, “Fie! / No pleasure sated him […] He sturdily
resisted all my toil; / Time conquers, old he lies here on the soil”
(lines 11588-115993). 

-Marcy

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (36 of 41), Read 33 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, August 14, 2002 04:03 AM 


So many ideas to take into this re-read here, thanks to you all!

Marcy I doubt the spoilers matter all that much --- I probably will
read the excerpts included in the Kaufmann if no other part of the
second part -- but I loved that line you quoted there -- makes me
anxious to get into those excerpts once I finish the re-reading.

Dottie

TC: There's a lot of reasons.
Her: Okay. Give me one, just one.
TC: Oh, honey, don't let me commence. from Hidden Gardens, in
Music for Chameleons ... and I might well add my own 'Oh,
honey, don't let me commence.' 

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (37 of 41), Read 34 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, August 14, 2002 07:46 AM 


Thank you for that excerpt from Goethe's letter, Marcy. I
absolutely love to read comments on their works from the author.
I believe someone said that there is a Norton Critical Edition of
Faust and they usually include such tidbits.

In going back to reread the Prelude in Heaven, I came upon the
Prelude in the Theater which I had forgotten. I find this an
absolutely classic conversation between the warring aspects of a
writer's mind: the Poet, the Comedian and the Manager. My
favorite quote is from the Poet who says:

What's brilliant gleams an instant and is gone,
What's true survives for all posterity. 

And, also, the comedian's lines:

Age doesn't make us childish, as they say, 
It only finds us real children still.

Barb

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (38 of 41), Read 33 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, August 14, 2002 05:53 PM 


Barb wrote:
My favorite quote is from the Poet who says:

What's brilliant gleams an instant and is gone,
What's true survives for all posterity. 

Barb, this one was one of my own favorites -- it really struck a
deep chord with me.

Dottie

TC: There's a lot of reasons.
Her: Okay. Give me one, just one.
TC: Oh, honey, don't let me commence. from Hidden Gardens, in
Music for Chameleons ... and I might well add my own 'Oh,
honey, don't let me commence.' 

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (39 of 41), Read 28 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Marcy Vaughan vaughan@yahoo.com 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, August 14, 2002 07:11 PM 


Barb - I did find the text of that letter written by Goethe in the
Norton Critical Edition of Faust. It's definitely worth seeking out!

Dottie - I think the selections of Part II in the Kaufmann edition
are definitely worth reading. The scene entitled Entombment in
Part II is my absolute favorite - a true gem of a reward for
making it to the end!

-Marcy

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (40 of 41), Read 9 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Jonathan Metts jonathan@planetgamecube.com 
 Date: 
     Saturday, August 17, 2002 08:11 PM 


When I read Faust, Part One for a class, I think we used the
Priest translation, or at least something like it. It was very King
James-ish, rather hard to follow unless you paid absolute
attention while reading. One curious thing that happened to me,
and perhaps as a result of our translation, was a complete
misunderstanding of the last section of the poem. I never
interpreted the lines to say that Faust and Gretchen had made
love or had a child at all. The child Gretchen drowned seemed to
me to be her baby sister or whatever the text briefly alludes to. I
guess in the end it was just me not paying attention, or not
reading something correctly. I asked my teacher if this could be a
matter of interpretation, because my subsequent writing
assignment probably would have dealt with it, but he said that
Faust and Gretchen absolutely, definitely had sex and a child.

Just out of curiosity...did anyone else get the same impression as
me? (Probably not.)

Jonathan
Published daily at PlanetGameCube.com


 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (41 of 41), Read 5 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, August 18, 2002 09:15 AM 


My translation is incredibly straightforward, Jonathan, so I did
understand that Gretchen had a child. But, as you can see if you
read the notes here, it was very hard to tell that she and Faust
had actually started having sex or, at least, when it happened.
With a more complicated translation, I can understand how you
would have missed more.

BTW, Harold Bloom has a section on Faust in his Western Canon.
I've just started reading it. In Bloom's usual contrarian fashion,
he includes Part II in the Canon, the part that is known as the
most difficult, of course. That made me smile.

Barb

 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (42 of 47), Read 34 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Jody Richael jodyrichael@cs.com 
 Date: 
     Monday, August 19, 2002 11:39 AM 


Hi Jonathan,

I read the Priest translation and I understood that they had had
sex and that Gretchen had gotten pregnant but it wasn't clear
enough that I caught the fact she had drowned the baby. I also
thought she was talking about another baby and that her baby
was still alive somewhere. After I read some notes that explained
things I went back and re-read it and you can see the actual
events. 

Marcy - I made a post a couple of days ago but apparently it
didn't actually post. The gist of it was just to say thanks for your
comments on the text.

Jody

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (43 of 47), Read 29 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Tuesday, August 20, 2002 10:46 PM 


At Ruth's suggestion I ordered the German-English translation by
Kaufman. Since it arrived just a few days ago I am only 2/3
through. I usually read the left page in German first and
occasionally have a look at the translation. Sometimes I don't
remember a German term and have to look it up in the
translation. If the same word means one thing in German and
something else in English I am really puzzled. Also some of the
German sounds a bit archaic to me. Well it was written at least a
couple hundred years ago...

I must have read this book with interest and intensity in my youth
since many of the lines are so familiar I know them by heart. But
there are also surprises, parts that I have totally forgotten. The
essence I do remember. Well I can't be very specific at this point
as I have to think it through but can make one important
generalization. This tragic drama stands alone in beauty and
language. The interactions of characters show Goethe's genius.
More later!

Ernie

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (44 of 47), Read 32 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com 
 Date: 
     Wednesday, August 21, 2002 10:14 AM 


Ernie -- very interesting to hear your perspectives on the
side-by-side versions in this volume -- I am re-reading this at this
point and have been listening to a couple of opera versions and
reading the notes therein -- if I find anything worth sharing in
those notes I'll post them -- but I will definitely be back with more
as I re-read.

Dottie -- who has gone a bit Faust crazy it would appear

'We live in the dark, we do what we can, the rest is the madness
of art.' from a character in Henry James' book (possibly The
Middle Years) quoted by TC in Music for
Chameleons. "...and the darkest part of the dark, the maddest
part of the madness, is the relentless gambling
involved." TC referring to writers. 

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (45 of 47), Read 16 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Thursday, August 29, 2002 05:40 PM 


The other day I finally sat down with my outline in front of the
computer as I was ready to post it. Well, not for the first time, it
all disappeared when I was finished. Must have hit the wrong key.
But could this have been a blessing in disguise? I had not gotten
around to look at 3 important sources. So I had time to do it. So
now I have another problem. Where to get started....

Well since I read it in the original German text and made some
comparisons with the Kaufman translation I can start from here.
No translator, regardless of skill, can do justice to Goethe's writing
as found in this play. Strangely enough quite a few of the lyric
passages came back to me, though I may have first read the
drama in my teens or early twenties. It was the beauty and
meaning that may have caused me to remember some key
sections.

I vaguely remembered that the story of Dr. Faustus goes way
back in history and that such a person may have actually existed
about 1540 AD. Interestingly enough the story became popular to
the point that several books were written about him way before
Goethe dealt with the same subject. The essence of the Faustian
personality, his search for meaning and his appeal to the Devil to
help him procure knowledge or satisfaction in life are also
mentioned in these precursors. The Faustbuch was published
anonymously in 1587 and described the hero as a most
questionable individual who was accompanied by the remorseless
fiend Mephistopheles. Subsequently a number of still famous
writers continued the myth.

What stands out in my mind and is also mentioned by other
commentator is the broad range of Goethe's Faust. He changes
styles, meters, places, ideas time after time. Supposedly this is
not due to careless scattered writing but may be an outlet for
Goethe's broad knowledge and genius. One commentator believed
that Goethe wanted to create a universal appeal for his work. In
this, he differs from Shakespeare who seems much more focused
and cohesive in his dramas.

The basic story deals with search for meaning and the limitations
of humans to understand the reality of their goals. Faust hoped
that selling his soul to the devil he will achieve true wisdom and
ultimate satisfaction. By contrast his assistant Wagner feels that
having read the right books will do the job.

That all this can be presented with incredible beauty and
sensitivity is the miracle of this play. The implied and sometimes
expressed lesson is as follows: A decent human being in spite of
his (her) many mistakes will in the end return to the rightful path.

Ernie

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (46 of 47), Read 12 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:16 AM 


Ernie, thank you so much for this informative and insightful note. I
really enjoyed it. Can you elaborate on the difficulty of translating
this piece and give an example of what the translation doesn't
quite communicate? I find that fascinating.

Barb


 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (47 of 47), Read 12 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Saturday, August 31, 2002 04:02 PM 


Hi Barb,
I will give it a try though it may turn out to be incredibly difficult
for the reader that is. How are you doing Barb?
Ernie

 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (48 of 54), Read 25 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Friday, September 06, 2002 01:54 AM 


Hi Barb,
I will give it a try but it may not make much sense unless you
know both languages. I picked a few passages I especially like and
write it in German and also in translation. If I can't get it all done
this evening will do some more tomorrow.

Habe nun ach Philosophie
Juristerei und Medizin
Und leider auch Theologie
Durchaus studiert mit heissen Bemuehen.
Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor!
Und bin so klug als wie zuvor.

I have, alas studied philosophy,
Jurisprudence and medicine too, 
and worst of all, theology
With keen endeavor through and through-
And here I am , for all my lore
The wretched fool I was before.
-----

(Not too bad really) Next my favorite passage:
Vom Eise befreit sind Strom und Baech
Durch des Fruehlings holden, belebenden Bick.
Im Tale Gruenen Hoffnungsglueck
Der alte Winter, in seiner Schwaeche
zog sich in rauhe Berge zurueck...
------

Released from the Ice are river and creek
Warmed by the Spring's fair quickening eye;
The Valley is green with hope and joy
The Hoary winter has grown so weak
He has withdrawn to the rugged mountains.
-------

Faust:
Kannst du mich mit Genuss betruegen-
Das sei fuer mich der letzte Tag
Die Wette biet ich
Mephistopheles
Topp!
Faust:
Und Schlag auf Schlag
Werd oocj zim Augenblicke sagen:
Verweile doch! Du bist so schoen!
Dann magst du mich in Fesseln Schlagen
Dann will ich gern zugrunde gehn!
Dann mag die Totenglocke schallen
Dann bist du deines Dienstes frei
Die Uhr mag stehen, der Zeiger fallen
Es sei die Zeit fuer mich vorbei!
---------

If ever flattering you should wile me
That in myself I find delight
If with enjoyment you beguile me,
Then break on me eternal night
This bet I offer
Mephisto...
I accept it
Faust:
Right.
If to the moment I should say:
Abide, you are so fair-
Put me in fetters on that day
I wish to periish then I swear
Then let the death bell ever toll
Your service done, you shall be free
The clock may stop, the hand may fall
As time comes to an end for me.

------
(There are a few more passages that I would like to present if
anyone is interested)
Ernie
If you enjoyed reading this, please thank Ruth and Barb, they
asked for it.

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (49 of 54), Read 23 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Friday, September 06, 2002 07:28 AM 


Ernie, are these your translations of the German? If so, would you
tell us where the passages are so we can look at the differences
with the translations we have? Also, did you find places where the
translation from German to English simply could not convey the
original thought? If so, could you give us an example of that?

And, I appreciate your time in doing this so much. Thank you!

Barb 

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (50 of 54), Read 28 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Friday, September 06, 2002 11:25 PM 


Barb,
This is the Walter Kaufmann translation 1963,1990. While I could
not possibly go through the whole tragedy and compare German
with the English, the places that I remembered in German and
quoted above seem to be we artfully translated. As a matter I
can't understand how someone could do such a good job as some
of it rhymes and the rhymes are of various types (I can't
remember any more about these types). Some critics have
admired the variety of rhymes to do justice to a scene and to the
reader's feelings.

In other words the play is a great work of art and reading it once
more continue to admire Goethe's genius.

My admiration may be due to a few things that I know about the
man. He was an open minded science oriented (he did research)
liberal and supposedly an atheist as well.(I have been told). I can't
detect any feelings of hate or contempt in any of his writings. He
was indeed a fine person, a gentleman. 

Once while in Strassburg (now France) I saw an inscription on a
house that Goethe together with the Duke had stayed there. If I
remember correctly there were also rough paintings of them on
one of the walls. (Not unusual for Europe). I stood in awe for some
time looking at the house. 

It may interest you to know that one of my teachers of German
literature told the class that Goethe's best love poetry was written
at an age when most men have lost interest in this sort of thing.
Elderly Germans like their food and beer sitting around the Stamm
Tisch at their favorite tavern. They usually discuss politics, wars,
the evil of the Frenchman, etc. (Stamm Tisch is a table reserved
for the same group of people for certain days of the week). I often
wondered what their wives are doing during these sessions. They
are not gathering at the tavern. Nowadays they probably watch
Amerikanische Filme on TV.

It was fun for me to turn back to these almost forgotten memories
of culture and life style as I was raised with some of it. The
Austrians are quite similar to their German brethren but talk with a
different accent. The Germans accuse the Austrians for being
"talkers" but not "doers" and that especially applies to their
military exploits. A few Austrians including my father, my uncles,
and other veterans of WWI would agree with this.
Ernie

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (51 of 54), Read 27 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 08, 2002 01:28 AM 


Barb,
I looked at the Victor Lange (formerly prof. at Cornell U.)
translation. Unfortunately the verses are not numbered and have
to be found by looking through the whole thing. Well I found one
part that I quoted before that may offer you an opinion. Now I
have to look up the Kaufmann translation myself to form an
opinion.

Faust:
When on my idler's bed I stretch myself in quiet
There let, at once my record end!
Canst thou with lying flattery rule me,
Until, self-pleased myself I see,--
Canst though with rich enjoyment fool me
Let that day be the last for me!
The bet I offer.

Mephistopheles:
Done
Faust:
And heartily!
When thus I hail the moment flying:
"Ah still delay- thou art so fair!"
Then bind me in thy bonds undying,
My final ruin then declare!
-------
Ernie

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (52 of 54), Read 25 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 08, 2002 01:38 AM 


cont'd
Then let the death-bell chime the token
Then art thou from thy service free!
the clock may stop, the hand be broken
Then Time be finished unto me!

(This should be added at the end of my last posting)
Ernie

 
 

 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (53 of 54), Read 20 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Barbara Moors bar647@aol.com 
 Date: 
     Sunday, September 08, 2002 08:56 AM 


Ernie, I am really enjoying your comments on what you have
heard about Goethe and, also, about German culture. It fleshes
out the experience of Faust.

Also, I love comparing these translations. And, it's good to know
that Kaufmann got it right, even with the daunting task of choosing
English words that rhyme. Randall Jarrell, who did my translation,
did it in free verse so that he could be more true to the original
meaning without being tied to the need to rhyme. However, I think
he loses the flavor when I read Kaufman translation excerpts that
I've seen. Here are his translations of your first two examples:

Law, medicine, philosophy
And even--worse luck--theology
I've studied with passionate resolution,
I've learned, alas! from top to bottom; 
And stand here now, poor fool that I am,
No wiser than I was before.

-------

Spring's radiant life-giving look
Has rescued river and stream from ice;
The bliss of hope greens every valley.
Old Winter, his strength almost gone,
Withdraws into the rugged hills
And from them, fleeing, sends back weak 
Sleet showers that speckle the green plain.

------

What do you think?

Barb


 Topic: 
     Faust Discussion (54 of 54), Read 19 times  
 Conf: 
     Classics Corner 
 From: 
     Ernest Belden drernest@pacbell.net 
 Date: 
     Monday, September 09, 2002 01:17 AM 


Jarrell is not bad at all, still I prefer Kauffmann. But actually the
samples on which we base our opinions are small and limited.
Because of my early reading I am crazy about the genuine Goethe
lyrics. Isn't it strange that English poetry, and I took some at the
Chicago Highschool shortly after I arrived in this country but even
at this period of my life it was a disappointment. I really tried to
get the feel of Shakespeare by reading and seeing his plays. I can
only admit that I truly enjoyed one movie version of Hamlet. After
that, when I go back to Hamlet I do enjoy it. Perhaps a person's
initially acquired language sticks with you and readily converts into
poetry when exposed to it.

Pat was an English Lit. major in college and just loves poetry. She
also advised me to read poetry in English out loud. We got the
same advise from one of our contributors - the professor I think.

Actually I have not really read the best of English poetry. When I
tried to do so it became too difficult and I gave up on it.
Ernie 
PS. When I find a bit of time, I will quote more Faust, that I have
checked off, both in German and in the Kaufmann translation.