Amazon.com:
This Hugo and Nebula Award winner tells the sweeping tale of a desert planet called Arrakis, the focus of an intricate power struggle in a byzantine interstellar empire. Arrakis is the sole source of Melange, the "spice of spices." Melange is necessary for interstellar travel and grants psychic powers and longevity, so whoever controls it wields great influence.
The troubles begin when stewardship of Arrakis is transferred by the Emperor from the Harkonnen Noble House to House Atreides. The Harkonnens don't want to give up their privilege, though, and through sabotage and treachery they cast young Duke Paul Atreides out into the planet's harsh environment to die. There he falls in with the Fremen, a tribe of desert dwellers who become the basis of the army with which he will reclaim what's rightfully his. Paul Atreides, though, is far more than just a usurped duke. He might be the end product of a very long-term genetic experiment designed to breed a super human; he might be a messiah. His struggle is at the center of a nexus of powerful people and events, and the repercussions will be felt throughout the Imperium.
Dune is one of the most famous science fiction novels ever written, and deservedly so. The setting is elaborate and ornate, the plot labyrinthine, the adventures exciting. Five sequels follow. --Brooks Peck --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (27 of 52), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@neteze.com)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 01:26 PM
Well, it might as well be now as later:
First, my disclaimer: I read Dune when it first came out and found
it a life interrupter. Considering that that was 36 years ago, I still
have a strong sense of the narrative, which says much about the
book and its influence on a then 45 year old professional. Reading it
again now, I admire the weaving of the narrative, the construction
of protagonists, the invention.
The bone of contention. the trap laid: Why is this called Science
Fiction? Where's the "science"? I think Dune is no more SF than
the Lord of the Rings, both pieces of great imaginative fiction.
(Dune characters are human, with their intrigues and drives, and
LOTR's are not.)
Isn't (or shouldn't) the term SF be reserved for extrapolations*
based on today's "real" science? (God! some of cosmos theory is
fiction enough.)
Or, to cut to the race, what is SF ? Don't we need an agreed upon
understanding before we bean each other with the term?
(P.S. And what about today's profusion of Fantasy titles ? More
power to them, but what fertilized them during the last twenty
year?)
pres, retiring quietly, to observe.
* The dictionary tells me that the phrase "reasonable
extrapolations" is redundant.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (28 of 52), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 01:33 PM
Pres, as I've said elsewhere, I think these genre labels are just
subjective or transitory at best.
I just finally started Dune myself. Seem to remember that my
original paperback copy had tiny print, but this nice hardcover I got
for Christmas is of quite normal text size. Those of you bothered
might check the library for such a version...
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (29 of 52), Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 03:13 PM
My version DID come from the library.
Ruth, squinting, but soldiering on
“There ain't no happy songs, really. Even the ones that sound happy
are sad underneath."Hank Williams
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (30 of 52), Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 03:24 PM
Mine, too. (Squint, squint...)
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (31 of 52), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 05:36 PM
Pres:
I'd have to say that Dune, even if not considered pure science
fiction, is certainly more SFffy than Lord of the Rings, if only
because many of the things within are extrapolated from existing
technology rather than reversion to the technology of the past. For
instance (without giving too much away) there are space travel,
laser guns, etc. That said, there's plenty of magic as well, which
feels more like fantasy.
At any rate, the charm of Dune for me is not the gadgetry, but the
story. In essence, It's more historical fiction than science fiction,
and I'm a sucker for historical fiction.
David
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (32 of 52), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@neteze.com)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 06:08 PM
I go with you, DAVID. It's more historical fiction than science
fiction.
But having said that, I'm in difficulty. For the auditor would almost
certainly be misled if you said, "It's historical fiction".
Maybe it's "An historical fiction of an imaginary world", but then
what novel isn't?
Note: "As one swallow does not a summer make," a scattering of
future artifacts* does not a work of science fiction make.
pres
* “The very act of looking at a naked model was an artifact of male
supremacy” (Philip Weiss).
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (33 of 52), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 06:37 PM
pres,
You should have looked in your OED for the definition. :)
"Imaginative fiction based on postulated scientific discoveries or
spectacular environmental changes, freq. set in the future or on
other planets and involving space or time travel."
I'd say Dune fits the 'spectacular environmental changes' or the
'other planets' definition.
I'm going to have to hold my tongue in this discussion because it
always seems to me that when this subject comes up people are
saying something like "if it's good, it can't be science fiction".
Today the field is quite wide and the word 'speculative' is often used
interchangeably with science fiction.
My favorite definition of science fiction is "the literature of ideas."
(This one is used frequently within the field.)
Bo
Sue Surova, Forum Host, Science Fiction Literature Forum
http://www.sflit.com
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (34 of 52), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@neteze.com)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 07:56 PM
BO: I was awaiting your appearance - fondly.
I accept the OED definition you cite.
The essence of that definition is: "based on postulated scientific
discoveries or spectacular environmental changes" I don't
read that to say that off-earth settings, of themselves, make
Science Fiction, but if that is a generally accepted definition, so be
it. One hell of a lot of faeries Under The Hill are going to drop their
test-tubes.
Whatever, (such a precise word): DUNE creates an imaginary world
of great drama, detail, intensity, consistency, and originality. The
sheer extent of the achievement is, I think, the quality that captures
so many readers. It is thrilling to think that if Herbert can do that,
maybe there is hope for my visions in progress.
But remember also that for many readers a work will not succeed
unless it provides, along with the fiction, a sense of truth. And the
sense of truth is particular to the individual. For many people Dune
will have a sense of truth, even as remote as the world is from
reality; for others that very remoteness makes a sense of truth
impossible, and the novel fails on page one.
pres
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (35 of 52), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 09:22 PM
A few thoughts, Pres: I disagree with your statement about Dune as
being no more SFiffy as Lord of the Rings. Tolkien is pure fantasy,
but if you notice Herbert does not delve in "fantasy" but bases
everything on "scientific postulates."
For example, the Bene Gesserits are adept at manipulating
others--they are not really prophets nor telepaths. Everything they
do is based on principals of psychological conditioning and such.
This may seem for sociological than some space operas, but it is
provocative nonetheless.
There is also the very ecology of Arrakis--Herbert delves into
geology and creates an entire system that is, at heart, very
credible. It's based on geological concepts and theories. Maybe it
isn't rocket science, but last time I checked geology is indeed a
science.
For the SF gadget freak, Herbert has the body shields, those
wonderful sand suits, and 'thopters. Also, the "mentat" is an
interesting SF element. From what I gather, the universe of Dune
refuse to be slaves to any machine and hence create computers out
of people.
The "fantasy" part may be considered Maud'dib's "prescient
abilities," but I find that is even somewhat more grounded than
Frodo and friends.
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (36 of 52), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 09:32 PM
I agree with Dan here. I can't really think of anything in the book
that just seems magically there, inserted from thin air out of
convenience. The very setting (more than 10,000 years in the
future!) can pretty much account for anything. The most magical
stuff I can think of is the prescience, and even that is treated like...I
guess the psychology of hallucinations and drugs, and of levels of
consciousness. There's a lot of religious stuff mixed in there
too...dunno if you'd classify that under "magical" or "fantasy",
although I think it's possible to do so without using the descriptions
in a derogatory manner.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (37 of 52), Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, April 23, 2001 10:39 PM
Ruth and Dale,
I'm on page 75 and am really kind of into this. I needed to read
something different and am having fun with it. I like this Jessica!
Barb...who has read maybe two other science fiction books in her
life....
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (38 of 52), Read 40 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:44 AM
Bo, I'd say that all good fiction is 'the literature of ideas.'
Ruth
“There ain't no happy songs, really. Even the ones that sound happy
are sad underneath."Hank Williams
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (39 of 52), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 02:13 AM
Ah, wonderful Ruth. So you've conceded that all science-fiction is
good literature. ~BIG grin!~
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (40 of 52), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:20 AM
Whoa, there, Jonathan. Don't jump in for the kill so fast. I've
conceded that ideas are essential to good fiction. Sometimes SF is
good lit, sometimes it's not. Just like everything else.
Ruth
“There ain't no happy songs, really. Even the ones that sound happy
are sad underneath."Hank Williams
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (41 of 52), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:42 AM
I think he was kidding you, Ruth.
Sherry
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (42 of 52), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:45 AM
Who, me? ;-D
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (43 of 52), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 01:54 PM
Ooops. I should never answer before I've had morning coffee.
Ruth
“There ain't no happy songs, really. Even the ones that sound happy
are sad underneath."Hank Williams
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (44 of 52), Read 39 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 02:03 PM
I'm on tape 3 of a 16 tape set. I'm enjoying this so far. The reader,
George Guidall, speaks so authoritatively that I never question a
thing. It all seems plausible to me.
Barb, I am very intrigued by the relationship between Jessica and
the Duke. I'm sure more will be revealed later. There are some
references to Catholicism, including a Catholic Bible, that are quite
interesting. And so far the Bene Gesserits remind me of the Jesuits.
Ann
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (45 of 52), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 06:03 PM
Ann, I don't remember the story ever dipping into this part of the
background, so I'll explain a bit. Sometime, thousands of years
before the story in Dune takes place, all the religions of mankind
got together and decided to quit fighting and find some common
ground. It took them years and years to hammer something out,
but they ended up with the Orange Catholic Bible. It is considered a
great source of wisdom in Dune's time, but I think very few people
still practice a religion per se. There are a couple exceptions,
including the Tleilax and the Jews (!), but none of that is explained
until much later in the series.
As for the B.G. being like Jesuits, I think I've heard that before too,
not sure where. I always love how they're called "witches" by other
people, even though they don't have any real magical powers or
anything. I guess some of their abilities seem like magic to other
people though. The B.G. are a fascinating group of characters; the
first four books pretty much set them up as villains or at least
nuisances, but in the fifth and sixth books (the last two) they are
actually the main protagonists! Another aspect of the Dune universe
is that women are always holding the power in almost any
situation...though the men may or may not know it. I'd imagine that
was quite unorthodox coming from a male author in the mid-1900s.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (46 of 52), Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 06:57 PM
Thanks for the information, Jonathan.
Yes, I couldn't help but notice the strength of the women. The B.G.
"Reverend Mother" (a name used for the leader of a convent of
nuns, BTW) is so disappointed that Jessica didn't bear a girl child.
Obviously, she had a choice because she is quite apologetic about
it. It's not clear to me yet. Are all the B.G.s women? The ones
who've been introduced to the story so far are.
Ann
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (47 of 52), Read 37 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 08:48 PM
Ann, you are so lucky to find an audibook of Dune read by George
Guidall. He may be my favorite reader, certainly one of the top two
or three.
Really interesting point about the Bene Gesserits and Jesuits. And,
thank you for the background information, Jonanthan.
Barb
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (48 of 52), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 10:06 PM
Yes, all the Bene Gesserit are women. Actually, the "Kwisatz
Haderach" that you've undoubtedly heard of by now is actually a
male Reverend Mother...something they've been trying to
accomplish for millennia.
You're welcome Barb!
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (49 of 52), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:41 PM
I've just seen my first sandworm. I think I'm hooking into the story.
Stay tuned.
Ruth
“There ain't no happy songs, really. Even the ones that sound happy
are sad underneath."Hank Williams
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (50 of 52), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Friday, April 27, 2001 03:52 PM
Good, my first attempt at moving a thread back to the left worked!
I just finished the dinner party scene (a real treat if you're not there
yet!) and was totally awestruck by the introductory quote. I've been
enjoying my reread immensely so far, but this is the first time that
something has just hit me over the head like a cinder block:
Greatness is a transitory experience. It is never consistent. It
depends in part upon the myth-making imagination of humankind.
The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the
myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him. And he
must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples
him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that
permits him to move within himself. Without this quality even
occasional greatness will destroy a man.
- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess
Irulan
As usual, I had to read the quote two or three times before really
picking up the meaning...but OH MY GOD this little statement is just
mind-blowing in light of what happens later in this book and in the
next two books. A wonderful, beautiful gift from Herbert to
observant fans.
By the way, if you haven't been paying too much attention to the
little intro quotes for each chapter, I hope you will. Even if they
don't much relate to the story, or if they do and you can't figure out
how, they are almost all fantastic little "pearls of wisdom", to use a
charming but deathly overused phrase.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (51 of 52), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Friday, April 27, 2001 06:25 PM
Pros and cons from chapter one of Dune:
I was trying to read the beginning of Dune with the eyes of
someone not familiar with Science fiction and a couple things struck
me. The biggest was how much terminology he throws at you right
away. I'm reading another SF book now which has an alien culture
in it but the terminology built much more gradually throughout the
book. Only a dozen or so words are integral to the plot. Whereas I
feel like Dune's got quite a bit more to learn and it takes a bit more
concentration from the start.
What I remember most from reading it in the past is the
tone/setting. That's coming across again and I find that positive. I
also think that he's done a good job of setting up some of the
conflicts and setting the hook. (I'm actually pleasantly surprised. I
wasn't really looking forward to a reread which I shouldn't admit
here but since I'm now enjoying it, I can. {G})
Jonathan,
The one thing that's stood out to me in this rereading is the
introductory quotes. They *are* good and I don't remember what
happens later in the book. :)
What I like about them in particular is that they seem integrally
related to the intertwinings of the story. So often some of these
things are so obscure that I skip them.
I'm wondering if one of the reasons I don't remember a lot from my
previous readings of Dune is because it's so intricately plotted. And
there are those mystical elements and such that I didn't remember.
Bo
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (52 of 52), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Saturday, April 28, 2001 12:21 AM
Bo, I find Herbert's approach to language not unlike that found in A
Clockwork Orange. You feel the urge to look things up, to make
sure you don't miss anything. BUT, it's much more rewarding (and
100% possible if you try) to pick up all the important words from
context, and to be honest, the rest don't matter. As far as missing
something, you're always going to miss something with a story this
complex. I say, just screw it and move on, and go back to check
something if it bugs ya. Glad to hear that the rereading is hitting the
spot for you...I know it is for me. I haven't read a book this
fanatically in quite a while. At this rate I'll be finished in a week,
which is quite speedy for me!
Oh yeah, and here's another prescient gem for those of you who've
ventured as far as God Emperor before...
There should be a science of discontent. People need hard times
and oppression to develop psychic muscles.
- from "Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess
Irulan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (53 of 68), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, April 29, 2001 03:42 PM
Jonathan,
I am now on tape five. There are a total of 16 tapes. This really is a ripping
good yarn and I am glad your enthusiasm convinced me to give it a try. I
think I will have lots to discuss when I am finished.
I liked the quote about the necessity of being sardonic if you are going to be
a hero. Currently, I am listening to the big dinner scene.
Although I am confused sometimes, I have resisted the temptation to check
out the glossary on the internet. I don't want any plot spoilers. Gradually,
things are becoming clearer to me.
Ann
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (54 of 68), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Karen Slongwhite (kmbookworm@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 03:01 PM
For some reason, I wasn't real excited about reading this book. I'm not sure
why because I've read a ton of science fiction, although not recently. Maybe
that's why -- I kind of figured sci-fi was a phase I'd read myself out of a while
ago...
Anyway, last night on the train home from work, I suddenly got very hooked
into the story (I was on about page 150). Today I called in sick to work (I
woke up at 3 am and couldn't go back to sleep. By 6 am, I was exhausted
and knew I'd never make it through the day...). I slept for a while, then
decided to take a bath. I took Dune into the tub with me. I'd read a little last
night, so I was on page 196 (my mass market pb has 510 pages, including
the appendices on Kynes, religion, & the BG). I did not get out of the tub until
I was finished with that book -- 3 hours later. The water was cold, I was
shriveled and pruney. But I could not put that book down long enough to get
out of the tub.
I turned the last page of the book, realized I was now in the appendices and
wanted to howl, "What do you mean that's the end of the book?" I'm going
to have to read the next one in the series (what is the order of them
Jonathan?)
Karen
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (55 of 68), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 03:30 PM
Karen, amazing! Three hours of Dune...I can't even imagine. I have to read in
thirty-minute bursts so everything sinks in. The next book is Dune Messiah,
and it is probably my favorite in the whole series. A very different type of
book...don't expect a straight sequel! Send me an email when you start on it,
because I planned on reading it as well sometime in the next few
weeks/months.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (56 of 68), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 04:30 PM
Karen,
Glad to hear you're enjoying it. I am making pretty good progress listening to
the tapes, but I have some old batteries that keep running out.
Ann
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (57 of 68), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 05:34 PM
KAREN
A "pruney" KAREN is a most interesting visualization. Here's to your speedy
recovery.
EDD
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (58 of 68), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 05:37 PM
Karen:
There is something altogether incongruous about reading Dune while taking
a bath...
David
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (59 of 68), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 05:41 PM
DAVID
Maybe it's the sheer joy of getting out of your "stillsuit" for a short time.
EDD
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (60 of 68), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Karen Slongwhite (kmbookworm@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 08:33 PM
David -- You know, I didn't even think of that, but you are so right...
For some reason, early on in Dune, I thought of The Alchemist. Of course, the
two don't even compare -- The Alchemist is no where near Dune's league. I
think it's the phrase 'terrible purpose.' Didn't that keep coming up in The
Alchemist?
Karen
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (61 of 68), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 09:35 PM
Karen: I'm already there--purchased Dune Messiah yesterday. Like you, I
think I read the final third of this novel in almost one complete stretch. I was
helping paint a house and when no one was around I pulled my paperback
out my backpocket and would read while rolling the walls. It must have
worked, because my brother-in-law came back and looked at my work and
commented: "Great job."
What I enjoyed about Herbert's narrative was the manner in which he
toggled between "real time" and "historical commentary." The characters had
an added depth because they were part of a myth Herbert only hints at in
the sundry Irulan books quoted--and following the quotes are the seemingly
real actions of the actual people whose lives would become the stuff of
legend. This type of narrative is played with by Strazinski in his series
Babylon-5, a series which owes a lot to Herbert's work.
I also enjoyed the way Herbert could tell you straight up who the traitor was
going to be and yet still stunned you when the doctor actually commits his
treason. Similarly, we are allowed inside the minds of key characters even
when they are in conflict--and yet the intrigue is still palpable. It is saavy
story telling.
Of course, there are some mysteries left in this universe: We never do hear
the thoughts of someone of the Space Guild. The dinner conversation has a
member present but all we receive are his emotions filtered from the
perspective of other characters. Herbert never really lets us know just what
he is thinking or even planning. The same is true of the smuggler at the
dinner; he laughs and is mirthful but a few pages later he is dead.
Again, I applaud Jonathan for bringing this book to my attention. It is indeed
a classic I should have read a dozen times by now.
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (62 of 68), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:19 PM
Daniel, you'll be glad to know that a Guild navigator (biologically far different
than that Guild banker, but still of the same organization) is a main character
in Dune Messiah. I'm glad you enjoyed it so much. I'm trying to hold off on the
real conversation until I finish...there are lots of things I want to discuss with
you all.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (63 of 68), Read 31 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Karen Slongwhite (kmbookworm@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 02, 2001 06:33 AM
I think my favorite line of the entire book is on the last or second to last page
when Jessica says, "They say she has literary aspirations."
Karen
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (64 of 68), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Karen Slongwhite (kmbookworm@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 02, 2001 08:20 AM
I'm heading to the library on my lunch break today and will be picking up
Dune Messiah while I'm there.
Karen
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (65 of 68), Read 17 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 05, 2001 11:47 PM
I just finished the book. I noticed especially towards the end how Paul is
represented as a duality or perhaps even a triality (sp?) as Duke Atreides,
Muad'Dib, and Usul. This is in stark contrast to Herbert's other portrayal of
this most interesting character, that of the ultimate mixture of human
experience. Paul is at once civilized and savage, calculating Mentat, male
Reverend Mother (that would be the Kwisatz Haderach part), and Guild
navigator (that would be the prescience part, although Paul holds the ability
to a far greater extent than any Guildsman). If this kind of character excites
you, you really must check out the later books to meet the God Emperor Leto
II...he who is god and yet man, one and yet many, in addition to everything
that Paul was and so much more. And you all don't even know the main
character of the entire series, Herbert's very fulcrum: Duncan Idaho. I'm
sorry, it's difficult to discuss Dune outside the context of the rest of the series
when I've already been exposed to the consequences of the first book's plot
and characters. Anyway, I really want to know what stuck out to everyone
else, as I'm sure there are countless facets to this story that I haven't even
noticed yet, much less understood. God, I could spend weeks discussing
Dune!
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (66 of 68), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, May 06, 2001 12:43 AM
Jonathan, didn't you once say that Dune has been a pivotal book for you?
Perhaps you'd like to start things off by articulating why this is.
Ruth
“As a queen sits down knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a gneral raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind." Richard Wilber, Walking to Sleep
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (67 of 68), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 06, 2001 11:03 AM
Personally, it is when Herbert spends an inordinate amount of time
discussing Paul's personal and political problems that his writing becomes
dull. Honestly, Paul is never really a "real character" to me; he's a seeming
embodiment of philosophical musings the author wants to express. Oh, the
problems of a messiah-to-be, the problem of being a Fremen as well as an
Atreides--I personally don't buy any of it because it seems forced onto a
character.
Granted, I started Dune Messiah and it is this perspective which is boring me
to tears. Perhaps it is just that the problems of potential godhood is a
problem I doubt I'll ever have to confront in any fashion. I will face scheming
Harkonnen or Emperors and there will indeed be times when survival
depends upon my own resources. But the problems with being a prophet or
the possibility of a Jihad in my name--not in my lifetime, I'm sure.
What I particularly enjoyed with Dune was Herbert's look into how individuals
and communities function together to survive and adapt. While I was
intrigued with the Bene Gesserit traditions (particularly in seeding primitive
cultures so they could be respected or awed should they return some day),
the constant prophecy ranting grew stale rather quickly.
One final note: Jonathan provided a real plot spoiler with his short story he
presented a while back. I couldn't forget a name as distinct as DUNCAN
IDAHO. His being is present as a woman in Jonathan's work. So when I
encountered him in Herbert I surmised he was going to die and yet return
later some how, some way.
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (68 of 68), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 06, 2001 12:30 PM
Dan, you have no idea what's in store for you. ;-)
Ruth, good idea. Not sure how you can articulate something like that, but I'll
try.
I was a big reader in elementary school and most of middle school, but at
some point I just got burnt out and stopped reading books for pleasure. It'd
be easy to blame it on the mandatory books I had to read for high school,
but I think it's more that I ran out of books I was comfortable with. It wasn't
until my senior year in high school that a friend pushed A Clockwork Orange
into my face and said, "Read it." So I did...and here was a book that I wasn't
at all comfortable in reading, that I actually found quite difficult because of all
the language barriers, but it fascinated me terribly. After that seed was
planted, my friend provided two books based on the Myst computer
game...actually both quite good. While at his house picking up one of those, I
noticed that he had Dune lying on a desk or something. Having seen the
David Lynch movie adaptation twice, I was intrigued and asked to borrow it.
He said, "When you finish these Myst books." Okay. I read those and then
jumped into Dune.
I'm not sure what I was expecting. The cover was pretty dull, some guy
standing in a desert. If A Clockwork Orange was challenging reading, this was
downright excruciating. People using words I didn't understand to talk about
philosophical topics I didn't understand, and so on. I had to read some entire
chapters over again just to figure out what was happening. But it was very
interesting, and Herbert's writing style was just amazing. His way of
describing people and emotions was like nothing I'd ever read before. The
real hook was just at the end of the first section of the book. Paul and
Jessica are stranded in the desert in the middle of the night, and the spice is
starting to take hold of Paul for the first time. The plane of time is rolled out
before him, as a handkerchief blowing on the wind. When I read that
passage in December 1999, something stirred within me. I think it was some
kind of catharsis, right there in the middle of the book. Maybe it was just my
mood that night, maybe something inside me was very much ready for that
moment and had been waiting for it a long time. It was like the sleeper
awakening, and for perhaps the first time in my entire life, I looked up from
the pages in awe, unable to read further until my mind had time to catch up
to what I was reading. I can't explain it.
Ever since then I've been different. Perhaps it's something so subtle that no
one else can detect it, or perhaps it's simply self-perception. Still...it's like I
was dragged up to a new level of awareness through Dune. I began to
read...constantly. Dozens of books in 2000, and already that many through
less than half of 2001. I also began to write, not silly essays for class like I'd
always done, but things I truly wanted to write. There was a terrible need to
be creative lying within me that I'd never even noticed before. I began
keeping a journal to track my new awareness (unsuccessfully); I looked at
literature and television and film and especially music in a whole new way. In
the spring of 2000 I entered Janet's creative writing class, and she was
wonderfully gracious in allowing me the freedom to do whatever I
wanted...she knew I wanted to write. Within months I was exploring ideas
for stories and novels and poetry and songs as I walked the halls or sat
through other classes.
Was all this caused by one passage of one book? No. But Dune was the key,
perhaps one of many possible keys, to unlock something in me that has very
literally changed my awareness, my very way of looking at life and everything
contained within, if not changed me as a person completely. Ironically, I just
realized that it could be compared to Paul's experience on that first desert
night. His entire life, even generations of planning before his own conception,
everything about him was engineered to be a receptacle for that mysterious
Arrakeen substance, the spice melange. When exposed to it, the spice
unlocked latent abilities and emotions and awareness that had been inside
Paul all along, and from there on he was an entirely different person. Dune is
my spice.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (69 of 74), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, May 06, 2001 07:47 PM
Jonathan, thank you for your long attempt to answer an almost unanswerable
question. I'm going to mull on what you said, and try to get my own thoughts
together on this before I post more.
Ruth
“As a queen sits down knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a general raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind." Richard Wilber, Walking to Sleep
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (70 of 74), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Monday, May 07, 2001 05:57 AM
Jonathan, I really enjoyed your post. I couldn't stop smiling throughout the whole
thing. I love your enthusiasm and willingness to be open. What a neat description of
a turning point in your life.
Sherry
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (71 of 74), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, May 07, 2001 12:12 PM
Jonathan: Finished Dune Messiah over the weekend. I wasn't as impressed as with
Dune for the very reasons I delineated above. The narrative pace wasn't as intense
and the action, much of the time, was emotional or internal struggles. However, it
was not bad enough to stop me and tonight I'm picking up Children of Dune. I'll give
Herbert another chance to spruce up the chronicles and tone down the emotional toils
of messiah-to-bes.
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (72 of 74), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 08, 2001 01:58 PM
I have been re-reading this and I am really awed by your post Jonathan regarding
how this novel affected your life. How strange that I am so much older than you and
yet many things about your reading time with this book happened to me when I was
young. Dune changed my life and my thinking and perspective completely. It was
one of the first novels I ever read when I was breaking through from 'remedial
reading' as I have talked about here before. I was a hopeless 'reader' actually really
almost unable to read until I was about 15...and I couldn't stand it anymore and just
somehow was given Dune, A Clockwork Orange, Something Wicked This way Comes
and 2001 by a boy I had a crush on...actually I am pretty sure that was a huge
motivation to learn to read or rather overcome my dyslexia. But as I was living on
the west coast, I remember being sensitive to environmental issues and clear cutting
and
water issues in California and somehow Dune totally inspired me to see the dead
planet from farming and overtaxing...the earth, the worms the intuitiveness of the
witches. It was all so relevant and exotic to me. And it seemed so fricking topical! So
political! I know when I read it I thought that I would grow up into a world changed
by environmental and agricultural issues and I really thought there would be major
corporate changes...as if EVERYONE would have read Dune or worked to understand
themes in Dune.
Oh well. but as I am reading it now, I am so impressed with his writing and the scope
of his mirror world to Earth! It still holds up, maybe more than ever. I did start losing
interest in the following novels/sequels, although I have been told that his kids new
novles are very much like the original Dune.
Candy
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (73 of 74), Read 19 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, May 08, 2001 02:58 PM
I’ve been thinking long and hard about what I wanted to say about this one,
Jonathan. Please bear in mind that nothing I can say can invalidate your response to
it, and if it brought you into the fold of readers, it’s worthy on that count alone.
That said, this wasn’t a book I warmed up to and it didn’t have near the impact on
me that CLOCKWORK ORANGE did. The vocabulary didn’t bother me; it soaked in
and made sense as I went along, just as the vocabulary in CO did. One thing I never
did get straight tho, was the relationship between CHOAM (Is that the correct
acronym? My book’s gone back to the library.), the Guild, the Emperor, and various
and sundry other governmental/business/military entities.
Perhaps it’s my natural dislike of characters that are not believable that prevented
me from warming up to, oh lord, what’s his name? The main character. He was way
too smart, too strong, too prescient, too NewAgey, too everything for me to accept.
Plus it’s kind of hard to cotton to a fellow who keeps insisting he hates to kill, but who
happily does so at every possible opportunity.
After the first couple of chapters, which were slow going, I became enmeshed in the
story and plowed ahead. Cracking good story, even if it did get a bit repetitive, and
the writing occasionally klunked. Stroke of genius, killing the Duke off like that. Just
when I was expecting a protracted struggle, the plot snuck in and bopped me over
the head. Wow.
What I found most fascinating was the idea of an almost waterless planet, and the
adaptations—physical, mechanical, mental, emotional—required to deal with it.
Ruth
“As a queen sits down knowing that a chair will be there,
Or a general raises his hand and is given the field glasses,
Step off assuredly into the blank of your mind." Richard Wilber, Walking to Sleep
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (74 of 74), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 08, 2001 03:31 PM
I agree with much of your commentary, Ruth. The characterization in this novel is
somewhat weak and the character of Paul Atreides is, as you say, a little little "New
Agey" for me.
But as Candy notes, the environmental commentary embedded in the text is utterly
engrossing and provocative.
The novel sacrifices in some areas yet rewards (greatly) in others.
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (75 of 84), Read 48 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 09, 2001 02:01 PM
I would say that I agree that this is not a successful novel as far as
the normal aspirations of high literature. I guess as many of you
already know standard definitions of'well written' are not always part
of what I like in a book. Ultimately for me, it's always content and
theme.It's true it has a lot of characters, like War and Peace and Les
Miserables....I think he wanted to create a world and political intrigue
like those novels and he may not have succeeded. It is hard to follow
and this is a re-reading and I still don't remember lots of characters or
like them. Oddly, it is still the original feeling I had for the eye opening
way of looking at our world that hits me as his genius and insight.
Cheers,
Candy
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (76 of 84), Read 48 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, May 10, 2001 02:02 PM
Candy: I do believe that content and theme carry Herbert's work far.
Weak characterization is made up by an absorbing story with
fascinating content and provocative themes. It is difficult to find a
novel without any flaws; it is better to find one with just a few.
And, by the way, for the record, I started Children of Dune last night.
I'm on a roll...
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (77 of 84), Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@starband.net)
Date:
Friday, May 11, 2001 04:18 PM
I thought I had stumbled into the world of Dune when I saw this
headline on my start page: "Worm hit thousands of Solaris and IIS
servers."
Sherry
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (78 of 84), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, May 14, 2001 01:06 AM
heh heh very cute.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (79 of 84), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 15, 2001 09:38 AM
Some rather odd thoughts stimulated by mulling over the actions of
Dune...
(1) What do you make of the notion that great armies are a
by-product of hostile environments? The Fremen were fierce fighters
because of their rigid, disciplined lifestyle; the Sardaukar were
notorious because of their harsh life on the prison planet Selusa.
Seems to me this is flawed. Today, the best troops tend to come from
the most technologically advanced societies. Sure, some nations have
religious zealots chanting and waving AK-47s, but note how quickly
the allies seized air superiority and covered ground during Desert
Storm. All of it due to technology.
Of course, Herbert is careful to have the "technology" of the Atreides
undermined from the start of the Harkonnen siege: the generator is
sabotaged and personal shields are largely useless on the open
plain.
Would the American army still be a force to be reckoned with without
technological superiority?
(2) Could a cadre of individuals master human observation and
mannerisms to such an extent as to practically read minds or insidious
intentions? And what about "the Voice?" As a teacher, we all have
"the Voice" we use sparingly yet effectively. Could someone perfect a
vocal inflection which would actually influence a stranger's actions or
thoughts without detection?
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (80 of 84), Read 24 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Tuesday, May 15, 2001 05:31 PM
Hi Dan,
>>(1) What do you make of the notion that great armies are a
by-product of hostile environments? The Fremen were fierce fighters
because of their rigid, disciplined lifestyle; the Sardaukar were
notorious because of their harsh life on the prison planet Selusa.
Well, off the top of my head, I think that there might be *some*
indication of this depending on the situation (how's that for qualifying
in every way possible?) I think that harsh conditions can produce a
type of discipline that can have military applications. Though this isn't
necessarily so. I think there's more of mentality and application of the
skills needed for military thinking that has nothing to do with
environments.
>>Seems to me this is flawed. Today, the best troops tend to come
from the most technologically advanced societies. Sure, some nations
have religious zealots chanting and waving AK-47s, but note how
quickly the allies seized air superiority and covered ground during
Desert Storm.
And what about the guerilla warfare style fighting in View Nam? I'd
say that technology (though there are certainly a ton of other factors)
wasn't all that was needed there.
>>Of course, Herbert is careful to have the "technology" of the
Atreides undermined from the start of the Harkonnen siege: the
generator is sabotaged and personal shields are largely useless on
the open plain.
I think he's got a sort of anti-technology mindset from what I was
reading. (I got some of that sense from the little I've read of Dune
this time through.)
>>Would the American army still be a force to be reckoned with
without technological superiority?
I hate to say this but I don't think it would. My impression is that
we're lagging behind in physical training and in some of the
guerilla/terrorist type style of fighting that's upsetting the balance
these days.
>>(2) Could a cadre of individuals master human observation and
mannerisms to such an extent as to practically read minds or insidious
intentions?
Well, yeah, I think this is theoretically possible. It depends on if these
individuals are regular humans or not. If we're talking some type of
alien being that anything's possible. :)
>>And what about "the Voice?" As a teacher, we all have "the Voice"
we use sparingly yet effectively. Could someone perfect a vocal
inflection which would actually influence a stranger's actions or
thoughts without detection?
Yeah, I think this is possible. There's been so much done on
subliminal influences lately that this could be just a variation of that.
You know, the one thing I was wondering after reading some of the
notes here was why it is that Paul wasn't as sympathetic or
memorable a character as he could have been.
Bo
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (81 of 84), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 16, 2001 01:41 AM
Some ideas....Dan, good questions. One about war and military, I
agree with you that it seems more like technology in associated with
warfare...although as I have said in the past, most of the roots of this
seem to be associated and yes here I go again with agricultural
economies, rather than just technologically advanced. It might be that
technology is from the mindset of agricultural economies too...
I just read this bit in a book review on www.bostonglobe.com by
Caryl rivers on a book by Marilyn Yalom...called The History Of A Wife
this review and book may be of interest to cr folks anyway...
"Yalom's book opens with wives in antiquity when, many historians
believe, the status of women had declined from the hunter-gatherer
day. It was probably not until well into the agricultural era when the
concept of property evolved and the idea of paternity became so
important to it, that women lost ground and 'patriarchy' developed."
I throw this out there because really, property and loss of resources
occurs with agricultural economies and then defence and religious
zealots seem to get mixed in too.
I think American army is the most powerful because of the technology
it has.
and I think 'people persons' are already able to 'read' other
individuals. Aren't there people in our lives who go to the same
functions as we do, and afterwards they seem to have the inside
scoop on personal dynamics at a work function, or party. I think there
are people who are just really intuitive and/or sensitive to body
language and phrasing and tone of voice and open to 'reading'
others...
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (82 of 84), Read 20 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 16, 2001 01:27 PM
Bo: Interesting point about the role of technology within the tactics of
Vietnam. The only thing is that in Dune, there wasn't too much guerilla
fighting on the part of the Fremen--when they were ready to conquer
the Harkonnen, they did so en masse.
Of course, hasn't it been said that America had its hands tied during
the Vietnam conflict?
Candy: Yes, good politicians are good at reading body language and
influencing others.
I read or saw a study on lying where psychologists filmed people in a
room. The ones who "lied" clearly kept touching their face (tapping
the forehead, rubbing the cheek, etc.) when actually lying. The
psychologists stated that this makes sense since the liar dreads
having to tell a lie so they reassure themselves by touching/caressing
their face.
Next time you're lying, try to check to see if you don't at least touch
your face at least once during the fib. I was surprised to find that I
did--so now I make a conscious effort not to do so.
Not that I lie that often, you know (rubbing my forehead).
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (83 of 84), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Dean Denis (dddenis@iname.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 16, 2001 03:43 PM
If I recall correctly, professional poker players call this "a tell" and,
apparently, everyone has one in one form or another. The
professional makes er living from discerning the "tells" of others and
dissimulating er own.
In the specific example of face touching, if one were to consciously
stop touching one's face, it would be replaced with some other
mannerism. The impetus to tell is strong and requires great effort to
overcome.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (84 of 84), Read 18 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, May 16, 2001 08:55 PM
Very telling, Dean. I'm going to try to be more perceptive for signs I
may unconsciously signal for different emotions or actions in myself as
well as others.
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (85 of 86), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 20, 2001 10:51 PM
I am here to report that I finished the 16th and final tape of DUNE. It was a
good story and fun to listen to. Listening to books on tape certainly makes
yard work and housework a bit more endurable, although I am not yet an
expert on auditory reading. As a result, I never quite understood everything
that was going on -- either that or Herbert left quite a few loose ends.
I prefer more grey in my characters. These were either completely good or
completely evil. However, the imaginative world that Herbert created
intrigued me throughout.
I do have one question. It is my understanding that all of the people in this
universe were humans. Is that correct? Because this book was science
fiction, I assumed that it would be populated by intelligent beings that
differed not only in culture but appearance from our own species.
Ann Davey
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (86 of 86), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, May 21, 2001 01:05 AM
Don't feel bad, Ann. I read every single word the old-fashioned way, and I
never did get the intrigue sorted out.
Ruth
“Ain't it funny how an old broken bottle looks just like a diamond ring." John
Prine
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (87 of 100), Read 30 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, May 21, 2001 01:28 PM
Ann: During J's absence, I'll note that yes, indeed, they are humans from
Earth.
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (88 of 100), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, May 21, 2001 01:36 PM
And the species certainly hadn't improved with time.
Ruth
“Ain't it funny how an old broken bottle looks just like a diamond ring." John
Prine
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (89 of 100), Read 21 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Friday, May 25, 2001 03:27 PM
Goodness, it's been so long. I just wanted to address a couple posts before
this thread dies out for good. ;-) I've enjoyed it so much while it lasted.
Dan:
"Could a cadre of individuals master human observation and mannerisms to
such an extent as to practically read minds or insidious intentions? And what
about "the Voice?" As a teacher, we all have "the Voice" we use sparingly yet
effectively. Could someone perfect a vocal inflection which would actually
influence a stranger's actions or thoughts without detection?"
Yes, I think so. One of the striking things to me about Dune is that it takes
place SO far into the future...more than 10,000 years from now...when most
sci-fi is just around the bend. If you look at a lot of research and trends in
today's society, and then jump forward ten millenia, it's fascinating to think
what they could evolve into by that time. Herbert loved doing that, and I
loved reading it. Just one of the many things he used to separate him from
most other science fiction authors. (On a side note, there are times when I'm
hesitant to even call it that. Some of you more mainstream readers probably
don't think anything of it, but Herbert's style and ideas are SO different than
any SF I've ever read that I think he doesn't belong in the same category,
although I'm not sure what category if any he should be put in.)
About the lack of aliens, there's just another example of his unwillingness to
follow SF traditions. What's so clever about Dune is that you have so many
subsets of the human race that, over 10,000+ years, have specialized
themselves so that they seem even more alien than the little green men we
all think of with normal science-fiction. Again Herbert makes a sly observation
about the direction our species is headed...at what point to humans become
so bizarre and distant from each other that they no longer qualify as human?
Dune has the guild navigators who breath spice gas and look like giant
fish-men, but they're still technically human...it's just hard to think of them as
such. In fifty years, will we ponder the same things about humans with bionic
eyes and hands, or genetically engineered children who can recite
Shakespeare's entire works and jump fifty feet into the air?
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (90 of 100), Read 25 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, May 25, 2001 04:22 PM
Yet none of these human subsetsseems to have learned anything about
getting along with each other by nonviolent means. What a sad future to
contemplate.
Ruth
“Ain't it funny how an old broken bottle looks just like a diamond ring." John
Prine
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (91 of 100), Read 28 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Friday, May 25, 2001 09:47 PM
RUTH
All of our little subsets didn't learn to get along in the last 10,000 years. If,
past is prologue, then it looks like we haven't a snow balls chance to change.
EDD on a pessimistic day.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (92 of 100), Read 32 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Friday, May 25, 2001 09:51 PM
Edd, how true...
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (93 of 100), Read 33 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, May 25, 2001 11:50 PM
Alas, Edd, you're probably right.
But hope is a nice thing.
Ruth
“Ain't it funny how an old broken bottle looks just like a diamond ring." John
Prine
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (94 of 100), Read 34 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 26, 2001 10:07 AM
I think this discussion has come round to the ideas in dune and its value as a
classic. I think your idea of hope Ruth is right on in the way that Dune says, it
mirrors how we have lived for the last 10,000 years and if we continue then
there is our future. I am reminded of was it Huxley or Asinov who said, why
do people always talk about changing the world rather than the way people
live in the world? And I think this idea of how we live and our manipulating
the world is a common and important theme is most sci-fi. As a genre it has
had this questioning of how we live in it over and over.
I read a book review of a philosphy book last week and the book uses the
'prisoners dillema' as a basis for looking at how we live. the prisoners dillema
is two criminals are taken into separate rooms and given deals. the prisoners
know 1) if one confessess to crime and turns in the other they are given
immunity the other a harsh punishment they both confess to crime and both
recieve lighter punishments3) neither confesses and both recieve heavier
punishments. the book goes on to use this example for clean air. We all want
clean air, but know it can only be achieved collectively. We can hope
everybody else gives up something and we don't have to,or no one gives up
and the air stays a mess, we can contribute on our own at great personal
cost, and no one else does and our paltry sum makes no difference.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (95 of 100), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@neteze.com)
Date:
Saturday, May 26, 2001 11:59 AM
CANDY:
Nice presentation of the prisoners' dilemma and the way it plays out in our
own social choices.
Another road, about our resistance to change: I feel that if we can invent the
PERSONAL COMPUTER we can invent the UNIVERSAL PACIFIER. Or is that
what the gun lobby is working on.
pres
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (96 of 100), Read 29 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, May 27, 2001 07:17 AM
heh heh I imagine this huge pacifier made by a sculptor or something.
I totally got the prisoners dilemma from a book review!
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (97 of 100), Read 27 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:21 AM
Claes Oldenburg's your man, Candy.
Ruth
“Ain't it funny how an old broken bottle looks just like a diamond ring." John
Prine
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (98 of 100), Read 14 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Barbara Moors (bar647@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, May 28, 2001 06:35 AM
This was one of the few science fiction novels I've read and it was a nice
departure for me. Though it certainly won't ever be my favorite genre, I was
glad to have the impetus to try something different.
What did you all think of Herbert's treatment of religion? I kept following that
thread that worried about the result of Paul being treated as a god by the
Freman, but didn't see it being taken to any conclusion. Did that happen later
in the series, Jonathan?
Also, I was a bit disappointed by the development of Jessica and Chani. They
started out with such promising strength and then seemed so limited
ultimately.
Barb
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (99 of 100), Read 13 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Candy Minx (candyminx@hotmail.com)
Date:
Monday, May 28, 2001 08:51 AM
Ruth, yeah, I was thinking he's be okay as well as Damien Hirst(what out of
animal parts maybe?) or Jeff Koons-he could make it out of marble or
something.
I am reading a totally entertaining art history book right now, about to post
under 'last five read thread'.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (100 of 100), Read 11 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Monday, May 28, 2001 10:56 AM
Barb, yes, it's wrapped up in the later books. The Fremen wanted to treat
Paul like a god, but he was never really interested in that. His son corrected
the problem.
Although it isn't stressed as much later on in Dune, I think almost everything
in the first three books is manipulated and controlled mainly by women. The
Bene Gesserit particularly have a knack for getting their way without
becoming obvious. "We exist only to serve." Whatever.
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (85 of 93), Read 45 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Susan Strahan (tales@1001knights.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 06, 2001 01:15 PM
Yesterday, ironically enough during a tropical storm, I read my husband's old
hardback of Dune. I already was somewhat familiar with the story due to the
movie, mini-series and what I'd picked up listening to people talk about it
over the years. I enjoyed the book, but it was a really weird read during such
a storm. When the huge bowl I collect rainwater in overflowed, I went out in
the rain, emptied it into the 5 gallon jug, and then got another container out
of the garage because I couldn't stand the thought of all that water going to
waste. ;-)
I have one small question from the beginning of the book. Supposedly the
gom jabbar is to test whether Paul is human--that's what we are told. I
thought this was really interesting because it implied that there were people
who looked like humans but were not. (Aliens? Uber-humans? Sub-humans?)
Later in the book someone says something about the difference between
humans and animals, so I then wondered if this culture tested people and
then separated them out into "humans" and "animals".
I'm really not clear on this gom jabbar test. At the time it was administered it
was a test to see if he was human but there were also connotations that
either it or the questioning Paul unerwent could reveal whether he was the
Kwisatz Hedderach. If it is a Bene Gesserit test to find out if he is Bene
Gesserit does this mean that Bene Gesserit were not considered "human"?
Later on when the Fremen say something about Paul not being tested, either
he or his mother blurts out that he has already been tested by the gom
jabbar and that seems to satisfy everyone. That context implied a test for
worthiness or trustworthiness, but again, it brought up in my mind the idea
of "human" and "non-human". (??)
The Bene Gesserit decided that Paul was human even though he withstood
more pain than a human could--another reason I wondered it was used to
divide people into "human" and "animal" categories.
Confused by the gom jabbar,
~~Susan~~
"Then would you read a Sustaining Book, such as would help and comfort a
Wedged Bear in Great Tightness?" ---Winnie The Pooh
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (86 of 93), Read 42 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 06, 2001 04:39 PM
Susan:
From what I gather, the gom jabbar as a test designed to show that a person
could rise above animal tendencies, as in shirking from pain and such.
Everyone is "human" in the biological sense; the Bene Gesserit seem
interested in whether or not a person can overcome their animal passions
through sheer force of will.
Dan
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (87 of 93), Read 44 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Susan Strahan (tales@1001knights.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 06, 2001 05:36 PM
On 6/6/01 4:39:54 PM, Daniel LeBoeuf wrote:
>Everyone is "human" in the
>biological sense; the Bene
>Gesserit seem interested in
>whether or not a person can
>overcome their animal passions
>through sheer force of will.
Yeah, but is this a really good way to test this--with a poison needle aimed
just a hair-breath away from one's flesh? A lot more people can "overcome
their animal passions" when the penalty is instant death than if they simply
have to do it "just because". Seems like it would be a better test of character
if it didn't mean instant death to fail.
By saying that Paul is human when he passed the test, this implies that he
would not be human if he failed (which I guess is correct in that he'd be
dead). ;-) Of course the whole death-for-failure thing makes me wonder if the
Bene Gesserit sometimes produced offspring which were not human and
therefore had to be taken out of the gene pool...
The fact that they had some kind of complicated breeding program going on
for thousands of years raises a lot of questions about what makes a Bene
Gesserit. On one hand, Lady Jessica was teaching the Fremen "the weirding
way" as they called it. Also frequent mentions were made of Paul's training.
So apparently quite a lot of what the Bene Gesserit do can be taught, though
no doubt some people are better adapted to these types of skills than
others. Certainly they were breeding for and looking for specific traits to
produce the Kwisatz Haderach.
Is it possible that in giving the test they are looking for a reaction that is "out
there" eg: mystical, taking control of the experience, etc? Looking for some
unusual reaction in the subject that will mean that they are closer to their
goals? Perhaps all Bene Gesserit have tested out "human" so far, but they
are looking for some clue to a super-human.
Your "animal passions" explanation is probably the right one, Dan, but idea
they are testing for a non-human who needs to be taken out of the gene
pool or an uber-human who will fulfill the goals of their breeding program is a
lot more interesting. ;-)
~~Susan~~
"Then would you read a Sustaining Book, such as would help and comfort a
Wedged Bear in Great Tightness?" ---Winnie The Pooh
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (88 of 93), Read 46 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 06, 2001 07:14 PM
Good questions, Susan.
My question is: why were the Bene Gesserit all women? The messiah (I
forgot Herbert's name for him) was supposed to be a male, born of a Bene
Gesserit, if I understood the story correctly. Did you have to have a Bene
Gesserit mother to be a Bene Gesserit yourself?
I listened to this on tape, so I couldn't easily go back and check out some of
my questions.
Ann
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (89 of 93), Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
S. Bohinka (bohinka@riconnect.com)
Date:
Wednesday, June 06, 2001 11:05 PM
What I remember (and it's been 15 years or more so ignore me) is that it had
something to do with "spirit" or inner being that made someone rise above
and be human. I didn't have the 'animal passions' sense.
The question of what it means to be human is certainly an interesting one.
Bo
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (90 of 93), Read 36 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Susan Strahan (tales@1001knights.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 07, 2001 08:34 AM
Ann,
As I understand it the Bene Gesserit were all women, but they did not
necessarily all produce female offspring. At the end of the book Paul realized
that Count Fenring is a product of their breeding program, that he is a failed
attempt to produce the Kwisatz Haderach. My impression is that the Bene
Gesserit is a female religious order and that Bene Gesserit women who have
daughters (which I gather is most of them) give their daughters over to the
Bene Gesserit to be trained as they were.
I know this isn't a direct answer to your questions, but it's as close to
shedding light on them that I can come. ;-)
~~Susan~~
"Then would you read a Sustaining Book, such as would help and comfort a
Wedged Bear in Great Tightness?" ---Winnie The Pooh
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (91 of 93), Read 38 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 07, 2001 02:04 PM
Susan,
Was the Kwisatz Haderac a messiah, and, if so, what was he supposed to
deliver everyone from?
Thanks for your help.
Ann
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (92 of 93), Read 41 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Susan Strahan (tales@1001knights.com)
Date:
Thursday, June 07, 2001 03:39 PM
That's a good question--the answer, I suppose would depend on one's
viewpoint. Obviously the Freman (and Paul) believe it is his destiny to free
them from the oppression and manipulation of the Imperium, but the Bene
Gesserit are not Arrakeans; they are global and I'm not sure they need saving
from anything except perhaps themselves. ;-)
Seriously, my impression is that the messianic aspects are unique to Arrakis,
something that grew up out of local lore.
The Bene Gesserits were likely trying to create not a messiah, but a sort of
super-Bene Gesserit, someone who as it was said, could be everywhere at
once and know both past and future. A god, in short. But a god that they
would have exclusive access to, one whose omniscience could be applied to
their own ends. If you were or wanted to be the manipulator of all events,
the ultimate political power in the universe, wouldn't it be nice to have
someone in your court who could tell you exactly what actions to take to yield
the desired result?
Unfortunately for them, the Bene Gesserit lost their chance to have an
omniscient Kwisatz Hadderach in their midst. Their loss is the Fremen's
gain---they get a messiah. :-)
~~Susan~~
"Then would you read a Sustaining Book, such as would help and comfort a
Wedged Bear in Great Tightness?" ---Winnie The Pooh
Topic:
MAY DISCUSSION: Dune by Frank Herbert (93 of 93), Read 35 times
Conf:
CLASSICS CORNER
From:
Jonathan Metts (jonathan@planetgamecube.com)
Date:
Friday, June 08, 2001 03:54 PM
Susan, very astute observations. From what I understand, and some of this
comes from revelations in later books, the B.G. wanted not a messiah but a
tool. They remained behind the scenes for millenia, scheming and plotting for
their eventual dominance while all the time chanting their hogwash "We exist
only to serve" mantra. Their plans for the male Reverend Mother, the Kwisatz
Haderach, failed because Paul was stranded in the desert when his powers
bubbled to the surface, far from the B.G.'s reaches. They didn't realize the
folly of their breeding program until too late: if you're going to create a
super-weapon, you must be able to control it. Paul and his son Leto II
punished the B.G. severely for that mistake. In the last two books, which
focus mainly on the Bene Gesserit, you will find that they very much want to
avoid accidentally creating another Kwisatz Haderach. I thought that was
funny. :-D
The Bene Gesserit are a sisterhood, like a cult sort of. It has little to do with
heredity. Although there are no "official" male Bene Gesserit, some boys are
trained from a young age in the B.G. Way, such as Paul and Harq Al-Ada in
the third book. Many of the B.G. powers can be taught even later in life...I
think that both Fenring and Yueh mentioned that their B.G. wives had taught
them a few tricks of the trade.
|
Frank Herbert
|
