BURMESE DAYS	09/17/1998 3:28:36 AM
It's been so long since I read Burmese Days that I can barely remember
what it is about. However, I can confidently say that the book holds an
important place in Orwell's literary career. Not only was it was his first novel
(or nearly his first), but it is his most autobiographical novel. 



The book should be read in conjunction with Orwell's often-reprinted essay
"Shooting an Elephant," which recounts an experience he had while serving as  a
colonial official in Burma. His experience in Burma (then regarded as part of
British India) was a transforming event in his life. It  turned him against
imperialism in all its forms and set him on a path that would eventually cause
him to reject all forms of authoritarianism and write 1984 and Animal
Farm. 



Orwell's depiction of his central character in Burmese Daysprobably
reveals a great deal about how he saw himself, though he greatly exaggerated the
character's physical unattractiveness.



It may be significant that after Orwell underwent his second transforming event--
as a combatant in the Spanish Civil War--the book he wrote about that
experience, Homage to Catalonia, was nonfiction, in contrast to
Burmese Days.



BURMESE DAYS	09/19/1998 8:26:04 AM	59	0
Wonderful way to launch a book, Ann and Kent.


I found this one in a used book store a while ago and it's been waiting on my
shelf ever since.  If anyone finds a book that contains the essay, "Shooting An
Elephant", please post the title.  Kent, I hope you'll get a chance to join us
on this one.  Do you suppose it's on tape somewhere? 



Barb 



BURMESE DAYS	09/19/1998 11:07:50 AM
I went looking for Burmese Days and I actually found it---in my hall
bookcase, filed under O.  (It may be unbelievable, but once I spent one whole
afternoon alphabetizing the bookcase than runs down the length of the hall.  Not
to worry, though the rest the books are in comfortable chaos.)



In the days before CR, I actually read any book I'd bought before
I bought another, so BD's presence in my bookcase means I've read same.  Hmmmm.
Don't remember a thing.  



Ruth



BURMESE DAYS	09/19/1998 4:33:44 PM
Yes, Barbara, Burmese Days is available on tape. Margaret Hilton recorded
it for Recorded Books; Frederick Davidson recorded it for Blackstone; and Robert
Mundy recorded it for Books on Tape. Alas, my local libraries don't have any of
these recordings, otherwise I would have listened to one of them long ago.



I don't know Mundy's work, but I've found Davidson's readings of other authors
to be generally satisfactory or better. I've only listened to Hilton read one
book, Eliot's Silas Marner, and my notes show that I gave her top marks.
Any reader who can bring that book to life must be outstanding.



Recorded Books has issued at least ten recordings of Orwell books. Most of them
are read by Patrick Tull--as the finest book reader I've ever encountered. His
readings of Homage to Catalonia, Down and Out in Paris and London,
and Coming Up for Air add dimensions to those books that I overlooked in
my earlier readings of them. It's a pity that he didn't record Burmese
Days, as that would have been a real treat. However, Hilton's reading of
Silas Marner impressed me so much that I wouldn't hesitate to try her
reading of Orwell, if I could get at a copy for something less than the
larcenous prices that the rental companies charge.



Since this thread is supposed to be about Burmese Days, I shall impose
upon your patience by recalling a frivolous, but relevant, anecdote. When I was
in graduate school, a friend wrote his history dissertation on British
imperialism in Burma. While he was searching for a title for it, I offered what
I thought was a pertinent suggestion: "Burmese Daze."



Regrettably, he chose to overlook my snappy suggestion and instead go with one
of those stuffy 25-word dissertation titles that contains at least two colons
and several commas.




BURMESE DAYS	09/19/1998 4:49:13 PM
Speaking of Burmese Days editions ... while I was looking for my own copy
of the book (which, naturally, I can't find ... the penalty of having half of
one's library stored in boxes scattered in a garage), I remembered that it was a
Time-Life paperback edition (with a dark green bamboo motif on the cover, if I
recall correctly). I think it was during the 1960s that Time-Life issued a
series of "classic" works in paperback.  There choice of  Burmese Days
now strikes me as curious.



If anyone has a copy of that edition, I'll be interested to hear whether it
contains a new introduction that explains why T-L included it in its series.




BURMESE DAYS	09/19/1998 4:50:03
Speaking of Burmese Days editions ... while I was looking for my own copy
of the book (which, naturally, I can't find ... the penalty of having half of
one's library stored in boxes scattered in a garage), I remembered that it was a
Time-Life paperback edition (with a dark green bamboo motif on the cover, if I
recall correctly). I think it was during the 1960s that Time-Life issued a
series of "classic" works in paperback.  Their choice of  Burmese Days
now strikes me as curious.



If anyone has a copy of that edition, I'll be interested to hear whether it
contains a new introduction that explains why T-L included it in its series.




BURMESE DAYS	09/20/1998 12:00:04 AM
Kent,

Thanks for that interesting biographical information about Orwell. I had no idea
the book had autobiographical elements. 



Loved your suggestion for naming your friend's thesis. - G -



Ruth,

You see, fate determined that you join us in this discussion or you would never
have found your copy. I have given away a lot of the books I bought over the
years. Recently, I have been buying most of the ones we discuss on CR and CC and
I intend to hang onto them. They generally feel like old friends by the time I
have finished, and I like to have them close by. 



Ann




BURMESE DAYS	09/20/1998 6:46:28 AM
People never seem to choose snappy titles for dissertations.  I would think that
a professor with a sense of humor would appreciate it enormously, but I don't
suppose that many PhD candidates want to take that chance.



With my move, my new library is a member of one of those cooperatives in which
you can use your card at a huge number of libraries around the state.  My local
library has a decent collection of audiobooks, but not like my old one in Ann
Arbor.   But now that you've told me that there are 3 unabridged versions, Kent,
I'll be checking to see if one of the cooperatives has it.  Unfortunately, they
won't send it to my local library, as they do books, so hopefully it's in a
local one.  Thanks.



Ruth, I'm glad you'll be joining us!



Barb




BURMESE DAYS	09/20/1998 10:49:13 PM
Fans of Orwell take note!  (I've never read him, not even 1984, so I've no idea
whether this applies to me.  I did pick up a used Burmese Days for $2.00, so,
assuming I read it, I guess I'll find out)



Anyway, Keep the Aspidastra Flying has been made into a movie - A Merry War,
with Helena Bonham Carter (apparently queen of the high-to-middle-brow literary
adaptations) and Richard E. Grant.  Soon to appear in your local cinema, unless
you live in a backwater, in which case there is always video.



According to the review, this is a humorous film set in the '30s, a "wild ride
through the London class system" involving a would-be poet and his wrassling
with social expectations, fatherhood, responsibility, the lot.



Sounds to me like a revisit of some aspects of Man, Superman.  Except Orwell is
apparently funnier.



Theresa 




BURMESE DAYS	09/20/1998 11:43:44 PM
Believe me, Theresa.  Some backwaters don't even have films like this in
video.



Ruth



BURMESE DAYS	09/21/1998 3:51:07 AM
Thanks, Theresa, for alerting us to the film adaptation of Keep the
Aspidistra Flying. It's the sort of thing one might easily overlook in the
cultural backwater in which I live. We occasionally get films like that out
here, but if you're not alert, they can come and go while you're blinking.



I think I've read Aspidistra only once, but it made a powerful impression
on me. In a nutshell, it traces the dreary life of a young Englishman who writes
poetry and works in a secondhand bookstore. He's published a thin volume of
poems, but his life's work is an unfinished--and probably never to be finished--
epic poem,  "The Pleasures of London" (I write this from memory). In struggling
to find meaning in his life, the man gradually questions why he is writing his
epic poem.



The book made an impression on me by making me question the possible futility of
my own work--a scary thought  at the time. It's a powerful book.



Incidentally a New Zealander friend living in Britain when I was reading that
novel explained its title to me. The aspidistra is a lily that is seen as a
symbol of  middle-class families, who formerly (at least) kept potted
aspidistras in their windows. To keep an aspidistra "flying" is thus like
hanging out a flag, something akin to flaunting one's middle-class values.



Since I've taken the liberty of explaining that book's title, I can't resist
posing this challenge: Can anyone explain the meaning of Graham Greene's title
Brighton Rock?



My same NZ friend explained that one to me, too. Hint: I don't think reading the
book will answer the question--unless one is psychic.



BURMESE DAYS	09/21/1998 5:41:20 PM
Barb asked about the Orwell essay Shooting An Elephant. It can be found
in A Collection of Essays by George Orwell. Amazon books lists a 1970
edition by Harcourt Brace for $9.60, but I own a Doubleday Anchor edition
published in 1954 ($.95). I would look in second hand bookstores.



Pres


BURMESE DAYS	09/26/1998 11:52:50 AM
Thank you, Pres, for the lead regarding "Shooting an Elephant."  I'm a great
lover of prowling in used book stores.  Will add it to my list of books to
find.



Barb


BURMESE DAYS	09/26/1998 6:49:15 PM
I'm well into Burmese Days now and enjoying it immensely.  I can't
believe I don't remember reading this before.  What a wonderful atmosphere it
projects.  Almost makes me break out in prickly heat myself.



Ruth


BURMESE DAYS	09/27/1998 9:21:51 AM
My sentiments, exactly, Ruth.  I loved Orwell's description of U Po Kyin on the
very first page.  That paragraph hooked me for the book.



The edition I'm reading is called a Time Reading Program Special Edition.  I
picked it up in the used book store and would probably have thought it suspect
if I'd realize who had published it...I'm not sure why.  In any case, it has an
introduction by Malcolm Muggeridge, who was the editor of Punch, the
British humor magazine, during the 1950's.  He and Orwell were friends and he
makes many interesting observations about Orwell's personality.  Is this a
common introduction to this book or unique to Time?  There was also a
slightly sarcastic reference to Punch somewhere in the first 50 pages of
Burmese Days, but I can't find it just now.



Barb


BURMESE DAYS	09/27/1998 11:24:26 AM
Barb --- Have you read any Muggeridge?  I picked up a bio of him at Powell's
last fall -- which is still waiting.  I got interested in him through my reading
of and about C.S.Lewis.  I will check my copy of Burmese Days -- alas! unread! --
 for references to or signs of commentary by Muggeridge. --- Dottie, who gets
 more intrigued when these connections and coincidences show up in her reading
 plans



ID is an oxymoron!


BURMESE DAYS	09/27/1998 12:32:04 PM
Barb, I finished up BD last night.  There's no introduction at all in my
paperback copy by Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. The blurb on the back though, says
that Orwell "drew on his years of experience in India, where he was born and
where he served with the Burmese police."



It goes on to describe the book as a "caustic, fast paced novel about the waning
days of British imperialism", followed by a brief summary of the plot.  



While the plot does give us what appears to be a good (and unsavory) inside look
at the state of affairs in Burma at this time, it was the description of Burma
itself that played the stellar role for me--the heat, the dust, the flowers, the
bazaar, the birds, the insects...  



When I resurfaced after each reading session I was almost surprised to find
myself here in California.  It was a wonderful reading experience. Whose
recommendation was this?



Ruth


BURMESE DAYS	09/28/1998 2:23:32 AM
Barb and Ruth -- I was going to check my copy and get back to you -- can't find
it -- WHY does this not surprise me?  I am losing at least one item per hour
daily these days -- will post as soon as I get my hands on it!  Dottie 



ID is an oxymoron!



BURMESE DAYS	10/04/1998 10:53:11 PM
Hi old and new friends! Got back from an extended vacation about a week ago.
After that had problems with prodigy and finally gave up on it and joined Juno.
It feels good to be back even though it is a brain strain to say something
original or different.  After all we don't always want to agree with what has
been written before.  
 

Orwell seems quite different from just any other author we have read and
discussed on CC.  I sensed a profound dissatisfaction with life and would have
liked to know something about his background.  I am close to half finished with
the book so I don't know what is coming in the second half.  But, so far Orwell
seems to divide things into black and white.  He is a man with a strong cause,
i.e. anti imperialism, anti-authoritarian, anti-fascist.  The literary value is
secondary.  Will post more as I get closer to the end of the book,  Ernie




BURMESE DAYS	10/05/1998 8:31:39 PM	55	0	"Welcome back, Ernie! I
have about 100 pages to go on this novel. I have to try to squeeze in A LESSON
BEFORE DYING for my local book club meeting on Thursday, so I may not be able to
finish before the end of the week. 



I like the book, mostly because, as Ruth pointed out, it does such a good job of
plopping the reader right down in the middle of a very exotic locale. I once
took a trip to Thailand and Malaysia, and these descriptions of Burma bring back
memories of a world that now seems so very far away. I especially remember the
shock of the tropical heat and humidity. One would think that a person would
become accustomed to it after awhile, but it doesn't sound like these Europeans
ever did. Maybe it is just too much to expect people to fully adapt to climates
so different from that of their native country. I work with some Indian
programmers now who probably feel the same way about Nebraska winters as these
English people did about the Burmese summers.



This world of the Anglo-Indians (it was news to me that Burma was considered
part of Anglo-India) is quite interesting. It reminds me of Jo, Amelia's brother
in VANITY FAIR. Like Flory, he no longer fits in very well anywhere. Flory makes
the following comments to Elizabeth, which could just as easily have been spoken
about Jo over 100 years earlier:



"We Anglo-Indians are always looked on as bores. And we are bores. But
we can't help it. You see, there's--how shall I say?-- a demon inside us driving
us to talk. We walk about under a load of memories which we long to share and
somehow never can. It is the price we pay for coming to this country." XV,
p. 178



I would have to agree that Orwell does see things very much in terms of black
and white. He has a tendency to sacrifice  the subtlety of his characterizations
to his political agenda. It makes me wonder if the typical Englishmen in these
countries was really quite as hateful as the members of the European Club in
this small outpost of the British Empire. But I do find Flory to be a very
interesting character, and I like the way Orwell depicts his relationship with
Elizabeth.  He shows so clearly how we often "invent" the object of our
affections to fulfill our own personal needs. Unfortunately, our perception of
them sometimes bears no relationship to reality.



A couple of questions for anyone reading this book:



What do you think is the significance of Flory's birthmark?



How do you think a person from Burma or another third world country would react
to reading this book?



Ann


BURMESE DAYS	10/06/1998 12:17:34 PM
Could it be that Flory's birthmark is the outward manifestation of his
difference, his "otherness"?



I would hazard a guess that the Burmese might not like this book much better
than the English expatriates.  While Orwell is often sympathetic to them, it
seems to me he indulges in quite a bit of generalization which might rankle.



Ruth, who, nasty woman that she is, really did enjoy watching Orwell sticking
the knife into everybody


BURMESE DAYS	10/06/1998 5:45:57 PM
Or maybe the birthmark looms so large in Flory's mind and psyche, that he
cannot join the group.  He might have wanted not be be an outsider, but
he feels that the birthmark so disfigures him that he must always stand
apart.



Who knows?  Maybe without the birthmark he may have been just as much of a pig
as the rest of the expatriates.



Ruth



BURMESE DAYS	10/06/1998 10:11:50 PM
I agree, Ruth, that Flory's birthmark was probably what made it possible for him
to see Burma's forest and trees (and people, and so forth) and appreciate them,
unlike his fellow Brits.  I think it also made him so self-conscious, though,
that he was unable to do anything about, or even feel comfortable with, his own
perceptions.



I am on the home stretch with this one (Flory just gave the ruined leopard skin
to Elizabeth).  He is amazingly unperceptive about her, isn't he?  Imagine how
miserable he would have been if his dreams had come true and she had actually
married him.



I also like Orwell's description of Burma itself - he is very skilfull at
working this into the story.  I think it would be interesting to compare this
book to Heart of Darkness - Conrad's descriptions of Africa are so sinister -
Orwell's of Burma are much more realistic, I think.  Orwell is also much more
overtly political - I think Conrad's book was mainly psychological, and Africa
and colonial politics were mere tools (which I believe is what pissed-off
Achebe).



I can't imagine what a Burmese (what is the new name for Burma - starts with an
A, right?) would think of this book.  I enjoy reading descriptions by foreigners
of the U.S., even when they aren't flattering.  But, at least right now, this
country has so much power in comparison to the rest of the world that we
probably feel less threatened by such things than would a citizen of a small
country like Burma.



Theresa



BURMESE DAYS	10/06/1998 10:49:10 PM
Myanmar.  It came to me right after I hit "post."



BURMESE DAYS	10/08/1998 8:58:15 AM
Tom and I listened to Burmese Days on our trip up and back from the
cabin.  It was a Recorded Books unabridged edition narrated by Margaret Hilton.
I enjoyed it for totally immersing me into the world of Burma (as long as I
could keep my eyes on the road). I could smell the spices and frangipani and
feel the humidity. But boy he sure did despise people didn’t he. 

I appreciated it in the beginning when he described Elizabeth’s mother (Tom and
I both thought there was so much vindictiveness in that portrayal that he must
have been talking about a real person). I liked his description of Ou Po Kayyan
(I have no idea how to spell this, one of the drawbacks of bot’s), although I
disliked him thoroughly.  The most sympathetic character was the doctor, except
that he was so in love with the colonials. He did have a good heart, but what
good did that do him.  Flory drove me nuts. I did like the guy, but why did he
think what he was feeling for the twit (our name for Elizabeth) was love. He
kept saying to himself that he could love no other. It was as obvious as a
monsoon that he would have fallen in love with any creature under 40 that
stumbled into the club. His obsession with his birthmark drove me nuts too. How
bad could it possibly be? It was his obsession with it, not the actual thing
that did him in. I have a friend, some of you have met him, who has this
extremely large burn scar that takes up half his face. He is still quite
handsome, mainly because he doesn’t even see it. His friends forget it’s there.


SPOILER ALERT

But what I was mostly mad at Flory was, is that he killed the dog before he did
himself in, (which I also think was really stupid). I think the sole reason for
having the dog in the book was to have him there to kill.  Humorous books, like
Decline and Fall, that have not one sympathetic character in it, I can
deal with and actually like. But when no one learns anything, no one grows, no
one succeeds but the bad guy, that irritates me.  It’s like Orwell was saying,
oh woe is me, everybody’s rotten, the world stinks, which I guess is his point.
It just seems so whiny.  Why couldn’t Flory just have left Burma, for heaven’s
sake? Was that impossible? Did people who were stationed in colonial places
really feel that they had no place to go?  It just seems so self-important and
unintelligent an attitude. But really, I liked most of the book, just not the
way it ended. It seemed kind of juvenile to me. 



Sherry



BURMESE DAYS	10/08/1998 11:42:20 AM
I think Flory did what so many people do.  He projected what he wanted onto
Elizabeth.  He couldn't see the real Elizabeth at all.  The woman he was in love
with was not Elizabeth but a compilation of his own dreams and desires,
including, most importantly, his desire to be accepted.  If he could find one
other person in the world who felt as he did, then he would no longer be an
outcaste.  That's a lot of baggage to put on a poor, pretty twit.



I rather enjoyed watching Orwell stick the knife into everyone, but I do agree
the ending was a bit of a copout.  And also a bit of a shock to me, as I was
sure what the ending would be, and it wasn't.  



I was sure he'd end up marrying Elizabeth and then we'd have a flash forward to
the future, where either he had become what he despised, or the scales would
drop from his eyes and he would see Elizabeth for what she was, and in so doing
would also see his own foolishness.



Ruth



BURMESE DAYS	10/09/1998 11:08:31 PM
Here's the old kibitzer back at work, interrupting a conversation that he hasn't
been listening to carefully enough.



I've just skimmed through the last dozen or so postings here and noticed the
query about Flory's birthmark. This interests me. I haven't read Burmese
Days in at least 20 years and possibly much longer, and I haven't even
looked at the book since this discussion started. I do, however, remember
Flory's birthmark. In fact, it's one of the things I remember most vividly from
the book. 



Part of the reason I remember the birthmark is that I also remember reading a
discussion of the book in a longer work on Orwell himself. If I recall
correctly, the author of that work suggested (speculated, no doubt) that Orwell
gave Flory the bookmark for two reasons. First, because Orwell had a negative
self-image that wouldn't allow him to make his protagonist physically
attractive. Second, because it helped to make Flory feel estranged from other
Europeans and thus more apt to become romantically involved with a Burmese
woman.



So much for originality on my part. These views not only aren't my own, but I'm
not even sure I remember them correctly. However, if they make sense, I'll feel
that I've done my good deed for the month.



BURMESE DAYS	10/10/1998 3:14:18 PM
I finished Burmese Days too this week and I must say that I really,
really liked it, much more than I thought I would.  I can see many of its
limitations.  Orwell's desire to convey a message makes many of his characters
two-dimensional and I'm a great lover of complex characterizations.  And, he's a
bit too eager to deliver his message in general.  However, the descriptions of
Burma, as others have said here, were incredible.  I particularly enjoyed the
hunting trip that Flory and Elizabeth took.


And, I loved the U Po Kyin character (I understand how you feel about not
knowing how to spell something after you've listened to an audiobook, Sherry,
but, at least, you probably know how to pronounce it).  He was such a wonderful
villain and yet fairly complex, much more so than the British characters, I
thought.  You see him doing terrible evil to people and he's really responsible
for Flory's undoing...and yet you see his perspective and understand why he's
doing it.  I loved his careful plan to build pagodas and still insure himself a
spot in heaven...and then the irony of his ending.



Flory's attitude toward Elizabeth was  absolutely classic.  It was incredibly
immature but so typical of what people do in relationships throughout their
lives.  Of course, you want to hit him in the head with a hammer...but haven't
you done the same thing yourself?



SPOILER ALERT:

Flory's suicide took me totally by surprise.


However, my memories of other things I've read by Orwell lead me to think that
most of his stories end on a noticeably tragic note.


I don't think that the reality of watching Flory marry Elizabeth and then become
what he hated, or slowly seeing her for what she was, would have been enough for
Orwell.  I think it would have been more in keeping with the Flory character as
he had developed him though.  Nothing in what I knew about Flory up to that
point made me think that he would make the choice of suicide.  I understood,
however, why he killed the dog.  No one was going to care for the dog in that
community and she/he would come to a slow, unhappy end.  The fact that he
watched what the gun did to the dog's brain and then did it to himself drew me
up short though.



Barb 



BURMESE DAYS	10/10/1998 6:44:14 PM
The Burmese Days edition that I read has an introduction by Malcolm
Muggeridge who was editor of the British humor magazine Punch during the
1950's and was a good friend of George Orwell's.  I mentioned this before and no
one else seems to have that introduction so I wanted to share some of it with
you.



On the subject of Flory's birthmark, Muggeridge maintains that Flory is Orwell
and the birthmark an image of Orwell's abiding feeling of being physically
unattractive.  He goes on to say "This feeling was ridiculous, but it persisted.
 He was no more ill-favored than anyone else, though a bit bizarre: tall and
 lean and cadaverous, with a certain--how shall I put it?--lack of grace, which
 at schools like Eton gets noticed and is a decided handicap.  I used to think
 of Orwell as being, like Don Quixote, a 'Knight of the Woeful
 Countenance.'"



Muggeridge talks a lot about the conflicts Orwell had between admiration of the
British Empire and disgust with it.  Orwell (whose real name was Eric Blair) was
born in Burma and lived there until he was 8.  Then, he came back to England and
went to an expensive prep school, but as a scholarship boy.  He then won
scholarships to both Wellington and Eton and attended Eton, but the experience
seems to have caused a lot of bitterness in him.  He described himself as "an
odious young snob" at 15.  When he graduated, instead of going to Oxford or
Cambridge, he took a job in the Indian Imperial Police and was shipped to Burma.
 There, he was a policeman for five years.  Muggeridge says that a friend who
 visited him there formed an impression of "a conscientious and reasonably
 contented officer.  He certainly did not carry away a picture of someone
 girding abnormally against his association with British rule...."



Muggeridge goes on to say that "It is important to keep all this in mind in
considering Burmese Days.  Though in his political attitudes Orwell was
ardently anti-imperialist, he continued to cherish a romantic notion of empire
builders bearing the white man's burdens.  They might be brutal and obtuse, but
they had qualities of courage and endurance which Orwell greatly admired."



Muggeridge says that Verral is the standard English public school (read private
school...I never have understood that switch in British/speak) hero: "an
athlete, handsome, self-assured and commanding respect in others.  He is
contrasted with Flory, with his hideous birthmark, his low taste for consorting
with 'natives' and his poor showing as a horseman.  Flory is humbly content to
have his girl back when Verral has finished with her.  While hating Verrall,
Flory accepts his superiority."



I did feel some of this as I read the book.  It accounts for our feeling that
Burmese people might not particularly like the way he treats the native peoples.
 Most of them are not painted in a terribly admirable light though it is made
 obvious that this is the only way they feel that they can survive.  Even Dr.
 Veraswami is pitiable in his fawning manner toward the English.



What do you all think?



Barb  



BURMESE DAYS	10/10/1998 9:22:05 PM
I finished this book today, and I also enjoyed it more than expected.  Don't
have much to add to what has already been posted by others and myself, except
that I do think it would be interesting to compare this with Heart of
Darkness.



I liked that there were not clear heroes, and at least no designated villain.
Flory was the most likable character, but he was done in by his concubine, whom
even he realized he had treated badly.  U Po Kyin was the master at finding and
exploiting weak spots - which is how the powerless obtain power they cannot
openly achieve, no?  So he was a bad guy, but he was pretty much a creation of
the British colonial system.



Was it Orwell that was the lover of Daphne Du Maurier, with whom she had an
illegitimate son?  Or do I have one or both of them mixed up with other
writers?



Theresa



BURMESE DAYS	10/11/1998 2:47:57 AM
Orwell and DuMaurier?  I am interested -- hope someone has more on this or can
confirm it.  I will see what I can unearth but many of my books are packed to
store here.  Burmese Days is in the box for Belgium and I think I will add Heart
of Darkness since it is mentioned and I have never read it.  Dottie 

ID is an oxymoron!



BURMESE DAYS	10/11/1998 10:43:49 AM
One of the things about Burmese Days that I particularly liked was the
humorous description of Elizabeth's mother, "an incapable, half-baked, vaporing,
self-pitying woman who shirked all the normal duties of life on the strength of
sensibilities which she did not possess."  In spite of the general tragic thrust
of the story, this is a very funny book in places.



I also would like to give Orwell credit for his descriptive writing, which I
find exceptional:



"At that hour there were beautiful faint colors in everything -- tender green of
leaves, pinkish brown of earth and tree trunks -- like aquarelle washes that
would vanish in the later glare. Down the maidan flights of small, low flying
brown doves chased one another to and fro, and bee-eaters, emerald green,
curvetted like slow swallows.  A file of sweepers, each with his load half
hidden beneath his garment, were marching to some dreadful dumping-hole that
existed on the edge of the jungle.  Starveling wretches with stick-like limbs
and knees too, feeble to be straightened, draped in earth colored rags, they
were like a procession of shrouded skeletons walking."



The political thrust of the story was all that I was expecting, so these
sections came as a pleasant surprise.



BURMESE DAYS	10/11/1998 3:30:51 PM
Orwell and Daphne du Maurier??!! Theresa, I think I know enough about Orwell's
life to say that you're confusing him with someone else. Aside from the fact
that I can't recall any mention of Du Maurier in anything I've ever read about
Orwell, I don't think he ever went near Cornwall, from which she rarely
strayed.



And Barbara, that Muggeridge passage you quote makes me think that I must have
gotten my own ideas about Florey's birthmark from reading Muggeridge myself.
Aside from Muggeridge's theory about the birthmark, his dismissal of Orwell's
negative self-image also sounds familiar. I've often thought about Orwell's
physical appearance when I've seen photos of him. He wasn't exactly handsome,
but he certainly wasn't homely.



This has nothing to do with Burmese Days, but Orwell did incur a
disfiguring injury when he fought in the Spanish Civil War: He was shot in the
neck. Afterward he always had trouble speaking. This fact is something that I
try to remember when I listen to recordings of his later books. Indeed, some of
the best recordings of any books that I've ever listened to (and I've
listened to a lot) have been Patrick Tull's readings of Orwell for Recorded
Books, Inc. Tull's reading of Homage to Catalonia is especially fine.



Tull is an exceptionally energetic and expressive reader. When he reads one of
Orwell's first-person narratives (such as Catalonia, he doesn't sound
like Orwell could have sounded for the simple reason that Orwell's neck wound
left him unable to project similar energy. Nevertheless, when I listen to Tull,
I feel like I'm listening to Orwell because Tull projects the energy and feeling
that I find in Orwell's words. I imagine that Orwell would have been pleased
with Tull's recordings.



By the way, did I report earlier that Tull has recorded Burmese Days? I
think that's correct.



And, speaking of Du Maurier,  I once  went to Cornwall with a copy of her
House on the Strand and used its map to retrace its protagonist's steps
around Par (I write this from memory, so its spelling is suspect) and Fowey. The
route also took me around Du Maurier's house as well. (It's the only time I
remember doing something like that because of something I read in a novel.)



(Say, ain't the spell checker in the webboard great? It reports 32 "misspelled
words" in this message. I can't find any, however.)



BURMESE DAYS	10/11/1998 8:12:17 PM
I thought it was Orson Welles who had the child with Du Maurier but I have asked
four people and they don't know..and it does not say on the site for Welles..
Pamela



BURMESE DAYS	10/11/1998 11:09:37 PM
I finally finished BURMESE DAYS this weekend and treated myself tonight to these
notes. That birthmark interested me a great deal. Did you notice how it changed
throughout the story? When Elizabeth finally decided to reject Flory
irrevocably, it was all she could see, but at other times it did not seem all
that prominent. Then, when Flory died, it all but disappeared. By then, of
course, it no longer mattered.



Sherry, you asked why he was so obsessed with it, legitimately pointing out that
many people manage to be happy  with far worse handicaps. I am sure that we all
know people who are physically unattractive, but have so much self-confidence
and so many social gifts that we hardly notice.  Flory, on the other hand was
probably born with a tendency towards morbid self-consciousness. This is not
something you choose. His birth defect and his experiences in that chamber of
torture known as an English public school set the tendency in concrete. It is
hard for me to understand this inhumane system of ‘public’ education, where
children are sent away from home at the tender age of nine.  It comes up so
frequently in English literature,  and I have never read anything positive about
the experience. That birthmark made Flory the kind of man he was,  lacking the
confidence to change his life,  fearing to challenge the  bigotry of his
compatriots because it would draw attention to himself. It symbolized  his
feeling that he was defective and unlovable.



I was somewhat surprised by Flory’s suicide, but I found it in character. Was
there much difference between  him shooting himself or drinking himself to death
(which is where he was otherwise headed)? The former was probably less painful.
I don’t think that he could have returned to England. He was too mired in his
depression and despair to take positive action. Ruth is right that he pinned his
dreams on a young twit of a girl and called them Elizabeth, but I agree with
Barb that most of us have behaved in a similarly irrational way at one time or
other. If you haven’t, you’re one of the lucky ones. The result is almost always
painful.



Finally (at last - G -), I asked the question about how present day Burmese
might react to this story because I think they would be quite appalled. All of
the native characters (even  U Po Kyin) struck me as very childish. They lacked
the innate dignity of the natives in Achebe’s THINGS FALL APART. Of course, that
is how the English (even the good ones) saw them, so I did not find it
inappropriate. Also, much as I enjoyed the exotic flavor of Orwell’s Burma, it
was not a locale that struck me as pleasant – too oppressive, suffocatingly hot,
and threatening. Even the zinnias seemed forbidding.



All in all, I really enjoyed this book. I’m sorry that June couldn’t be here to
share it with us.





Ann



BURMESE DAYS	10/12/1998 2:40:17 AM
I'd like to suggest that we avoid using the word "native" except as an
adjective. 



Africans and Asians are no more "natives" than Europeans or Americans,
Frenchmen, except for the fact that the former get that label more often. We
call people in England "English" and people in France "French," and so on. Let's
call people in Burma "Burmese" and people in Nigeria "Africans," or "Nigerians"
or "Ibo" (as in Achebe's books) or whatever.




Lest anyone think I'm overly sensitive on this point, I'll merely recall the
person under whom I once studied Afrikaans. He called Africans from other
countries who worked in South Africa "foreign natives."



I'm still trying to figure out what that might mean.



BURMESE DAYS	10/12/1998 10:06:18 PM
Hmm, I wonder why it is politically correct to call Indians "native
Americans".

Or has that been superceded by "indigenous?"



At any rate, my point was that the non-European characters were not portrayed
with much sympathy. Whereas Achebe's Ibos struck me as people very much like the
ones I know in my own world, in spite of the fact that they lived in a very
primitive society over a hundred years ago, Orwell's Indian and Burmese
characters seemed very foreign indeed.



Due to lack of time, I was planning to skip the next CR selection, THE POWER OF
ONE, but when I saw it was set in Africa, I really could not resist. Like Flory,
the main character in this book is sent to a boarding school at a very young age
and terrorized by sadistic older boys. However, unlike Flory, the little boy in
THE POWER OF ONE becomes stronger as a result of his experiences. It's
interesting to speculate why similar experiences have such different results. At
any rate, so far THE POWER OF ONE is a real page turner.



Ann



BURMESE DAYS	10/13/1998 8:12:34 AM
Ann,

I have to admit that I didn't think very hard on what it was that made Flory so
meek. I thought it was just that he was a product of his society without enough
personal oomph to overcome society's shortcomings. I didn't think about his
early public school  days, or maybe that was a part of the tape that I didn't
pay attention to closely enough. I thought what a stultifying atmosphere he
lived in socially. No wonder the first pretty face was one to make him fall in
love, even though the face was attached to a mind that had nothing at all to do
with what was in his imagination, which had conjured up his perfect woman.  In
The Power of One Peekay's adaptability, his extreme intelligence, and
most important, the love he had from his nanny and the psychological magic the
witchdoctor conjured up for him, came to his rescue. He always had at least one
person, and later in the book many more, who made him feel worthwhile. (I
haven't finished, so I don't know how it is in the end). Flory never had anyone,
I expect. He was able to camouflage himself as an adult about as well as Peekay
did at age six to hide from the Boer bullies.  Interesting comparison.

Sherry in Milwaukee



BURMESE DAYS	10/13/1998 7:19:22 PM
Good points, Sherry. I think that if there had been someone in Flory's early
life like that Zulu nanny who loved Peekay so unconditionally he might have
turned out differently. And, hey, having the best magic man in South Africa on
your side wouldn't hurt either. - G- 



Orwell does say that Flory's parents were good people who made financial
sacrifices for him, but he could barely be bothered to write to them every few
months, much less visit them, so it appears that the bonds were weak.
Temperamentally, I think that he was also very different from Peekay. Early in
the book, Orwell mentions that Flory's voice sometimes shook and that he had a
nervous twitch. 



I think that some people like the Peekay character in THE POWER OF ONE are lucky
enough to be born with a great deal of natural resilience. They emerge from
horrible experiences with few apparent scars. My sister has a friend who was
abused by family members and sent to an orphanage. He loved that orphanage and
looks on one of the nuns there as his mother. He's great with people and has
made a real success of his life. How much of a role does nature play in how we
turn out, and how much can we attribute to nurture? It's a question that has
always interested me.





Sherry, I know that you listened to this book on tape. My edition was a
paperback, "A Harvest Book" published by Harcourt Brace & Company. It had no
footnotes or explanatory notes of any kind. This is one time I really would have
appreciated a glossary with the many foreign words defined. Did the editions the
rest of read have notes?



Ann



BURMESE DAYS	10/18/1998 11:47:24 PM
Ann,  Just finished the book this evening.  I procrastinate when I anticipate a
tragic ending.  Sorry, have always been that way.  But, I did change my mind
about the book's literary value.  It does have considerable literary value.  The
relationship between Flory and Elizabeth is well Portrayed as are the members of
the club, especially Ellis, Macgregor and last but not least Verrall and let us
not forget Mrs. Lackersteen.  Burma was vividly described as the place I have no
desire to ever see.  Ruth remarked that Burma is described so that you can
almost smell and taste it.  


As to the birthmark, its similar to Maugham's  hero in Human Bondage (the name
escapes me at this time).  It probably indicates an indelible perceived deficit
the person is stuck with and forever feels at a disadvantage.  


What makes this book a classic, as we have been discussing this question?  The
book feels real, it touches one's feeling, it feels genuine and moving.  It also
reminds me a bit of another book, Bend in the River?  It also Portrayed life in
an environment that is very foreign to us.  I like to thank the person who
suggested the book.  Who was it?  Ernie



BURMESE DAYS	10/18/1998 11:55:44 PM
Theresa,

Yes, Flory is, for an intelligent person incredibly unperceptive about
Elizabeth.  A rather horrible thought Occurred to me.  He may be better of dead
than being married to her.  Think of it, they are opposite extremes.  At the end
the author states that she made a perfect wife of an Indian Sahib, quarreling
with the servants, cute little parties for the wives of the fellow officers.
She does fit in perfectly well, Flory did not.  Ernie




BURMESE DAYS	10/19/1998 12:09:28 AM
Sherry,

Good to see you posting.  You got angry about  Flory killing the dog.  I would
have felt the same way except for something that happened just before I left on
our European vacation.  An old friend of mine called me, perhaps the first time
about what to him was a Catastrophe.  His dog had died and he yelled in pain,
there is nobody else I love or care for.  (He has a family).  All the people he
ever loved had died and now the only creature he loved died as well.  In other
words Flory took the dog along because it was the only creature he loved.  Sad!
 Ernie



BURMESE DAYS	10/19/1998 7:24:54 AM
It was sad, wasn't it Ernie. I am always amazed, however, when people do
themselves in because they seem to think they are locked in a room and there's
no way out. And someone else can look at the situation, someone not as tied in
knots emotionally as the suicide, and see open windows and doors and maybe even
a tunnel or two.  

Sherry



BURMESE DAYS	10/22/1998 4:57:36 PM
Ernie,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this book. June Williams suggested it.
Unfortunately, she has not been able to make the transition to the internet
site. She would like to see us back on Prodigy Classic. I tried emailing her
some of the notes, but I haven't heard back. I know that she was having computer
problems and we all know how frustrating that can be.




The story about your friend and his dog was interesting. Because of allergies,
Tom and I have never had a pet, although my parents had dogs when I was a girl.
I have never been that attached to animals, but I have had relatives who liked
them better than their children (possibly with good reason - G -). 



You mentioned that the atmosphere of this book reminded you of A BEND IN THE
RIVER. Theresa mentioned A HEART OF DARKNESS. In all three cases, the setting
was quite oppressive, wasn't it? I love to travel and, interesting as these
books were, they didn't make me want to visit the places where the stories took
place. I have read that Orwell lived in Burma at a time when the local
population was becoming openly hostile towards the Europeans. As is very
apparent in this book, he was also becoming very disillusioned with British
imperialism. So I guess we shouldn't be surprised this his Burma was a rather
unpleasant place.



Ann



BURMESE DAYS	10/24/1998 11:42:25 AM
Having reached the tragic ending of Burmese Days, I can't say that I find
much tragic about it.  The lot of them are superficial nitwits, perhaps
exemplified by Flory's final attempt to entice Elizabeth into marriage with the
offer of a piano and her final words to him "I don't play the piano." 



The book to me is fairly comic.The only one I felt sorry for was the dog.  



I would have much preferred an ending in which Flory and Elizabeth wed and turn
into a junior version of the Lackersteens.  This strikes me as much more of a
real world result. As for being unhappy in Burma, this crowd would have had just
as much trouble in in a posh London suburb with a good income.  



BURMESE DAYS	10/24/1998 12:19:03 PM
Jim, actually, your preferred ending was the one I was sure was coming, right up
until the actual suicide.  And I agree, it would have been better.  Sadder, and
less melodramatic.



Ruth



BURMESE DAYS	10/24/1998 2:09:38 PM

Jim, you had exactly the same reaction I did to the book. My original post is
probably somewhere in web-heaven now. I thought Orwell had the dog trotted out
the whole book just so he could be shot at the appropriate time. I was miffed.
Ruth, I thought that the ended would be as you imagined. They would get married,
and he would finally realize what a twit she was and he would keep going to the
doctor's house for company and be older, wiser, but better fed.

Sherry 



BURMESE DAYS	10/24/1998 10:31:57 PM
Ah, shucks, Jim, couldn't you work up just a smidgen of sympathy for poor Flory?
For some twisted reason, the losers of this world hold a special place in my
heart. I suffer on their behalf -- must be an excess of empathy.



At any rate, I agree with you that none of these characters would have been any
nicer in another setting. The colonies probably attracted more than their fair
share of misfits.



Ann



BURMESE DAYS	10/24/1998 11:39:15 PM
Ann, I don't know if it's fair to allude to Flory as a misfit. He's clearly
modeled on Orwell himself. And Orwell (as Eric Blair) was an Eton-educated
member of a respectable family sent out to British India to start his career.
Orwell became a misfit partly because of his experience there, but he certainly
wasn't sent there because he was a misfit.


On the other hand, Brits who stayed in the colonies longer than they had do
might very well have been misfits.


BURMESE DAYS	10/25/1998 1:06:24 AM
Since I have not read this book -- YET -- this may be out of line -- but it
seems to me that the misfit/ne'r-do-well/dilettante sent to the colonies is a
theme in many country's literature. The fact is that this also seems to be a
reflection of the history of the particular country's colonialism.  I was
prompted to voice this by the thought of Dinesen's Africa experience and writing
-- think of her husband and his background and his life in Africa.  Dottie

ID is an oxymoron!



BURMESE DAYS	10/25/1998 7:19:15 AM
The biographical information on Orwell implied that he felt like a misfit
because he went to the prestigious schools as a "scholarship" boy and never felt
that he belonged.  After making it through prep school and Eton, he was on the
path to Oxford or Cambridge, but surprised everyone by taking a job with the
Indian Imperial Police.  So, though I think he knew how to act like one of the
group, he didn't feel like a member.



Your points are well-taken, Jim and Sherry.

I didn't feel right about the suicide ending either.  However, I think that
Orwell was making the point that Flory's demons ran too deep for your alternate
ending.  I wish that he could have found a choice somewhere between the two.







Barb



BURMESE DAYS	11/15/1998 2:04:26 PM
Jim, Ann, Sherry,

For unknown reason the CC section was not working for a while on my computer and
- as usual- have not looked at all section of CC for a while.  

Like Ann, I feel a great deal of sympathy for those who don't succeed, stay in
the background or may be called losers by others.  I am not as sure as some that
if they had lived in London they would have had the same problem.  In a big city
you can sort of disappear in the crowd.  Don't forget that in the little white
Burg in Burma, there were only a handful people who were forced into close
interaction and this is always much more stressful.  You are under close
Scrutiny at all times.  Also the white "Crust" is surrounded by essentially
hostile and angry natives and the crust is much aware of it, trying to denegrate
them.  Actually Flory hand only two friends who were loyal, the dog and the
doctor.  We need to mention the viciousness of the administrative enemy who
wanted to be admitted to the white club at all cost.  Actually it all added up
(including the weather) to a terrible situation and Flory found the easy (?) way
out.  Ernie  


BURMESE DAYS	11/15/1998 2:12:17 PM
Barb,

You offered interesting biographical data on Orwell.  We can now wonder why he
did not continue his college education and joint the colonial police force.


I have been pondering about a rather profound comment you made as well:



His demons ran too deep!  How true of Flory, Orwell, and a whole group of other
great literary and artistic people.  It reminds me of Jamison's work on the
Greatness of the Manic Depressives!  Byron, you name them... Ernie



BURMESE DAYS	11/15/1998 7:12:56 PM
Ernie,

Welcome back! You made some good points about the insular world of colonial
society and the stress that put on anyone who didn't quite fit in. More than
anything else, Flory seemed to be so incredibly lonely. There wasn't
anyone else there who thought like him or was interested in the same things. His
life would probably have been  happier in England, if only he could have broken
out of his depression long enough to make a move. 




Orwell died of T.B. at the young age of 47. I wonder what else he would have
written if he had been given more time.



Ernie, I noticed that you have been replying to the individual notes, like we
all used to do on Prodigy. While you and Pat were enjoying Europe, we discovered
that if everyone tried to reply to the last note in the topic, rather that to
individual notes,  it was a lot easier to read through the messages. That’s
because if everyone uses that method than you can click on the first new note in
the series and bring up all the later notes at the same time.  This works
because they are all part of the same path. I think most of us now just click on
the new messages and read those. That’s the line that tells you how many new
messages you have when you log on. Another thing I found helpful was using the
"back" and "forward" buttons at the top of my browser to review notes.  Maybe
these suggestions are old news to you. If so, just ignore them.

Ann





BURMESE DAYS	11/19/1998 7:24:10 PM
Ernie,

I can't imagine anything that I say being considered profound, but thanks very
much for saying so.  In the biographical info I read on Orwell, the main point
that stood out is that he never thought that he fit into anything.  As a
scholarship boy at the wealthy schools, he felt like a pretender (and I'm sure
the other boys contributed to that feeling).  I've also read that he had lots to
say about the sadistic quality of the "public" schools in England.  And, yet he
had a curious sort of admiration for the boys/men in that society as well.  I do
think that he put a lot of himself in Flory.



Barb



BURMESE DAYS	11/19/1998 10:30:01 PM
Barb, I think it's fairly common that creative people feel that they don't fit
in. Maybe it's a large part of the engine that drives creation.



Ruth



BURMESE DAYS	11/30/1998 1:30:08 PM
Ann, Barb, Ruth,

First of all thanks Ann for suggesting that I comment or make remarks at the end
of the thread or is it chain.  Hope I understood you correctly.  I usually click
on reply.  Please feel free to continue any suggestions that would make reading
and posting easier.  

Barb, British Public Schools are really something else.  I have read and heard
so much about them and their products as well.  John LeCarree was a public
school teacher at one time and mentioned the interaction between staff and
students.  One of my friends went to one of the American so called private
schools.  Supposedly the environment makes for life long cohesion and
friendships of these students.  Of course the system, at least in England
contains a good deal of cruelty such as the approved and often practiced caning
of students.  Well of course Orwell would not fit in and that may have helped to
make him a creative artist as Ruth suggests.  Ernie



BURMESE DAYS	11/30/1998 4:20:07 PM
Ernie, if you're going to the last note in the chain and clicking on the REPLY
that's in the blue bar at the top of the note, that'll hang your note at the end
of the line.



Ruth



BURMESE DAYS	12/01/1998 1:02:01 AM
Orwell wrote a long and revealing essay about English schools that is well worth
reading: "Such, such were the joys." In many ways, it's similar to Arthur
Golden's depiction of the environment in which Japanese geishas were once
trained, in Memoirs of a Geisha--except that Orwell's account is based on
experience, not research.



I know Orwell's essay is in a 4-volume collection of his letters and journalism;
it's probably available in some other collections as well.



Wouldn't it be great if CR had a direct link to a comprehensive bibliographical
resource? It would be nice to be able to provide full bibliographical citations
easily.

_______________________



Addendum

Actually, we're not that far from such a link. Check out this link to
Amazon.com:



Such, Such Were the Joys and Other Essays



At least one volume of that 4-volume collection I alluded to is also listed on
Amazon; however, I'm not sure which volume the essay in question is in.