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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 17, 1999 10:29 AM
I thought that the connections between the stories were weaker
than in Kundera's other novels, but there were some interesting
variations on the nature of memory and how we manipulate it.
Memory refers to both the collective memory we call history and our
own personal definition of ourselves.
I couldn't "approve" of Mirek's attempt to rewrite his personal history
by destroying evidence of his affair with Zdena, who is described as
downright "ugly", not only unattractive. However, I could certainly
understand it. Kundera is showing us something true about human
nature. People judge us by the associations we keep, and Mirek's
affair with an ugly woman would reflect on his own attractiveness in
the eyes of others. Of course, this is all quite ironic since the young
Mirek is described as having skin "still covered with youthful acne" so
he was probably no prize himself.
Kundera relates Mirek's attempt to rewrite his personal history to
that of the Czech Communist efforts to rewrite the nation's political
history. The Communist replacement of historical facts with their own
fictional version of events is something Kundera returns to again and
again in this book.
Of Mirek, he says:
He wanted to efface her from the photograph of his life not because
he had not loved her but because he had. He had erased her, her
and his love for her, he had scratched out her image until he had
made it disappear as the party propaganda section had made
Clementis disappear from the balcony where Gottwald had given his
historic speech. Mirek rewrote history just like the Communist Party,
like all political parties, like all peoples, like mankind. 17, p.30
The second story, "Mama" also shows a person who rewrites the
past to suit herself. The elderly mother transforms her recitation of a
Christmas poem at a school assembly before the war into a
demonstration of patriotic fervor after the declaration of Czech
independence. She eventually realizes her error but happily continues
the lie, and no one else notices or cares. Maybe sometimes we all
find it psychologically necessary to "improve" our past.
Finally, Tamina attempts to find release from the now painful
memories of her happy marriage by regressing to the world of
children, escaping to a period which predates her memories.
Memory is our link to the past, and this is a book which concentrates
on the past. The present is empty and the future is meaningless.
Kundera wrote it in exile and it reflects his pain at being uprooted
from his personal past and native culture.
For me, the book brings up some important questions about memory.
Sometimes that little girl I was 40 years ago seems like a complete
stranger. To what extent am I still her? In my case, I have few
concrete memories of my childhood, but I wonder why I chose to
remember some things and repress others. And I wonder to what
extent I have remolded some of them to fit the story I have told
myself.
Does anyone else wonder about these things?
Ann
Topic:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 17, 1999 01:07 PM
Ann, you write the best notes! You make me think, now why didn't I
see that. I liked what you said about memory very much.
Ruth, who often wonders about why certain trivial moments are so
strong in my memory, and other truly important ones are entirely
forgotten
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
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From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 17, 1999 11:53 PM
ANN
Well, I certainly wonder about my younger self also. My hope is that
the little boy who was, still is---a little bit.
EDD
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 17, 1999 01:42 PM
Oh, Ann, the answer to your question is, "Absolutely!" I ponder that
same subject often, and never joyfully either. However, in this one
instance I am uncharacteristically going to emulate the Tamina of
the graphomania section of this book. ("The whole secret of Tamina's
popularity is that she has no desire to talk about herself. She offers
no resistance to the forces occupying her ear; she never says,
'That's just like me, I. . .'")
The import of laughter and the treatment of that theme in this book
is certainly a bit more difficult to grasp than the subject of memory.
(Clearly, Kundera is advancing the proposition that it is necessary in
order to continue with our existence that we edit our memories, or
rewrite them, as several here have already observed.) I think this
may be because Kundera does not regard laughter, at least of the
sort he refers to, as the saving grace or the redemptive force that
many of us consider it to be (certainly me anyway).
When the Isreali student Sarah unexpectedly gets up, walks around
behind the two teacher's pets, and kicks one in the rear end, this
results in a circle dance involving the two teacher's pets and the
teacher. They ascend, laughing, before the horrified class. (Garcia
Marquez is such wonderful preparation for this author.) At the end of
that section, Kundera affirms his connection with Sarah. So this is
the laughter of those in that circle dance from which Kundera has
been ejected.
"'Laughter, on the other hand,' continued Petrarch, 'is an explosion
that tears us away from the world and drops us into frigid solitude. A
joke is a barrier between man and the world. A joke is an enemy of
love and poetry. So let me tell you again--and don't you forget
it--Boccaccio doesn't know a thing about love. Love can't be
laughable. Love has nothing in common with laughter.'
'Yes!' said the student enthusiastically. He saw the world as divided
in two: half love, half joke. He knew that he belonged, and would
always belong, to Petrarch's army."
Damn, that's interesting! I will be thinking about that one for a long
time. And what a great group this is, too! There are so many authors
and so many individual novels that I would never have found but for
this group. Garcia Marquez, Coetzee, Ondaatje, Corelli's Mandolin,
The White Hotel. For me Milan Kundera is in that category in spades.
Absolutely fascinating and so full of ideas. I must tell you that I have
no interest in trying to determine whether this book is a novel, a
collection of short stories, a poem, a play, or a movie. It is one of
those rare books that transcends genre.
Wild Man
Topic:
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 17, 1999 01:48 PM
Damnit, Sherry! I ruined the beautiful symmetry of this thread by
failing to refresh and catch Ruth's last before posting my own. Up 'til
now I have been doing so well in replying only to the last note.
Sorry.
Wild Man
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From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 17, 1999 05:26 PM
I, too, noticed that the "novel" hangs together by the intertwined
themes of "laughter" and "forgetting". It seems the book should have
been called The Art of Laughter and Forgetting , since Kundera
seems to tackle the intertwined themes of laughter and forgetting as
well as delineating the "art" of laughter, the "art" of forgetting, and
the "art" of trying not to forget. Think of the woman trying
desperately to get her "journals" back because she needs them to
help her remember. Think of the "art" of the mother-in-law trying to
get her memory to coincide with actual historical events (She recites
the Christmas poem from memory and no one present questions why
such a work of verse would be spoken at a political event). Also
Kundera's focus on the literary realm--quoting or using examples from
Flaubert, Joyce, Ionesco, and Homer--the 'literary artists' who have
somehow managed to keep things fresh in the memory through art. It
would seem that, at heart, Kundera is very much interested in the
"writer" and the "writer's power" to either create humor, ensure
remembrance, or, to do like Kundera, to ensure remembrance for
totalitarian exploitation with humor.
Think: How different would Powell's novel In the Memory of the
Forest have been if some Kundera had made sure that everyone
noted the irony of a town which does not think about the absent
people whose homes and world they occupy? For Powell, there's
memory's markers in the form of tombstones, and hidden objects in
the niche of doorways. Here, in Kundera, it's the memory of journals,
of old age, and the words of the artists striving desperately to
ensure that no one soon forgets.
Dan
Dan
Topic:
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From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 17, 1999 08:32 PM
I found it interesting that Kundera seems to find that laughter is a
negative thing (as someone mentioned in a previous note here).
When Jan is on the verge of having sex with the married woman from
ten years earlier, he feels that she is on the verge of laughter. He
knows that if he laughs he will no longer want her. "He realized he
was only a hairsbreadth from bursting into laughter. But he knew
that if he did, they would no longer be able to make love. Laughter
was there like an enormous trap waiting patiently in the room, hidden
behind a thin, invisible partition. Only a few millimeters separated
physical love from laughter, and he dreaded crossing them. Only a
few millimeters separated him from the other side of the border,
where things no longer have meaning."
This thought seems frightening to me.
Jane
Topic:
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 17, 1999 09:51 PM
Steve and Jane,
You both noted that Kundera doesn't seem to view laughter in a
positive light. This is so foreign to my own experience that I had
trouble seeing the connections with the laughter theme. Thanks for
elaborating on them, Steve.
I went back and reread the first "The Angels" chapter which Steve
discussed so well. Section 4 of this chapter is called "(On Two Kinds
of Laughter)". In this chapter, Kundera says that the devils are the
source of one kind of laughter, the kind that recognizes the
incongruity of things or mocks the established way of thinking. It has
its malicious side, but it also gives us relief from the pressures of the
world. To counteract this, the angels came up with their own kind of
laughter, the type that rejoices in the present and takes pleasure in
the way things are. Being a rebel against the established order,
which has made him an exile from his home, language, and vocation,
the narrator sides with the devils. The angels represent order,
rationality, and authority, but their laughter has a cruel streak
because it excludes those who are not in the inner circle and it is
dangerous because to participate in it you must accept the status
quo.
Another author might term the angels' type of laugher "joy," but
Kundera's protagonists seem to find joy impossible. Or am I missing
something here?
And "angels" are definitely rather nasty creatures in this book. Sherry
has already commented on those seemingly innocent, but in reality
cruel children in the second "The Angels" chapter. The narrator
describes how he has experienced the sensation of falling ever since
he was expelled from the ring dance. He says he falls "further and
further from my country into the deserted space of a world where
the fearsome laughter of the angels rings out, drowning all my words
with its jangle." No, in contrast to their usual role, these angels
never signify anything good. The section where the student
experiences horrible, but unnecessary frustration while in bed with
the butcher's wife is ironically titled "Angel's Hover Above the
Student's Bed."
As is true of his treatment of laughter and angels, Kundera turns
things on their head and makes us look at things in a fresh way. I
may not always agree with him, but I enjoy the experience.
One more thing, and then I'll shut up for awhile. Steve, I also
underlined the section you quoted about Petrarch, laughter, love and
poetry. But I had the distinct impression that Kundera was mocking
both the poet and the student. What do you think?
Ann
Topic:
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 17, 1999 11:42 PM
If Kundera was mocking there, Ann, then he foxed me. I may have to
rethink that section. Right now, though, I still think these are
Kundera's thoughts concerning the joke being the antithesis of love
because of the very passage that Jane refers to above. That
passage says the same thing a different way from my point of view.
Could be wrong about all of this though. Clearly, that section about
the two kinds of laughter in the first Angels section is critical. Just as
critical is this little speech by Boccaccio of whom Petrarch
disapproves:
"From time immemorial men have been divided into two large
categories: idolizers--also known as poets--and misogynists--or,
rather, gynophobes. Idolizers or poets worship the traditional
feminine values of feelings, house and home, motherhood, fertility,
divine flashes of hysteria, and the divine voice of nature in us;
misogynists or gynophobes experience mild terror at the thought of
them. The idolizer worships womankind in a woman; the gynophobe
prefers the woman to womankind. And keep one thing in mind: a
woman can be happy only with a misogynist. No woman has been
happy with any of you! [speaking to the poets.]"
If Kundera is mocking Petrarch and the student, then this must be
his viewpoint. . .or perhaps none of these is his viewpoint, and he is
just setting up an amusing debate for us, which I doubt.
Wild Man
Topic:
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From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 01:33 AM
Steve, I think Kundera is ALWAYS setting up an amusing little debate
- the dude is just too cool to make an actual argument, don't you
think?
I've read this book numerous times, and must say did not enjoy it
nearly as much this time around. Maybe I just wasn't in the right
mood. I actually enjoyed reading the notes here more than reading
the book (Ann, I especially liked your two posts, they were very
illuminating, not to mention well-written. But all of you were great,
as usual.)
Kundera has a book of short stories, "Laughable Loves," that I
believe would illuminate further for you some of the themes in this
book.
I have a hard time understanding why Updike irritates me so, yet
Kundera, who in some ways is no better, is just a charming old rogue
(aside from the fact that Kundera has a much more reliable ense of
humor.) It may be that, as an American, Updike hits closer to home
for me (ick, I might actually have to deal with the guy, or his
doppelganger, some day or other.) Kundera, at more of a remove, is
just amusing. I'm not saying that Updike and Kundera share a similar
world view, but there are tonal similarities, for want of a better
phrase.
Theresa
Topic:
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 08:32 AM
Theresa: Kundera's riffs on the subject of memory and forgetting
remind me of what I think is one of the most moving passages in
Marquez's ONE HUNDRED YEARS OF SOLITUDE.
People in the town of Macondo begin having a "plague of memory,"
and realize that they're daily forgetting more and more things. In
desperation, they appoint the person in the village who is most fluent
with words to make signs and attach them to all the objects in their
daily lives: "This is a cow. Cows are important because they give
milk. Cows should be milked every..." and on, and on.
Whatever Marquez intended, for me it was a beautiful allegory of
what writers do...telling, in some ways, the "same" stories century
after century, but reminding us of what is important in our lives when
our culture distracts us to forgetfulness in that regard.
>>Dale in Ala.
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 10:04 AM
You know something, Ann? In all fairness to Mirek, I think his wish to
erase Zdena had more to do with the fact that she continued as an
unreconstructed Russophile than the fact that she was ugly.
However, the fact that she was ugly probably added further
motivation.
In the end here is the thing that most interests me about Kundera. It
is very hard for us to imagine living in a world of really intrusive
thought police and a world of informers. He has a knack for
conveying what that was like. I have read a good deal about the
Stasi in East Germany, the files they maintained on everybody, and
people's reactions now that they have gained access to their own
files and learn that close friends were informing on them. However, it
was only when I started reading this guy that I really started to
imagine what that must be like.
One starts to size up one's own family and acquaintances. Which of
these would run off to the secret police to tell them about a lose
remark you made about the government in a bar? Which one's would
remain loyal when you do get in trouble with the secret police. . .at
a risk to their own jobs or their own families? Would we ourselves
inform to save our own jobs or our own families? These are tough
questions, and thank goodness very few of us are ever put to the
test. I mean, we know what we would like to think our conduct
would be, but I don't think anyone truly knows that about
themselves until crunch time.
Wild Man
Topic:
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From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 11:51 AM
STEVE
As a tangential follow-up to that thought; some where I read that
the reason the British captured Nathan Hale was because of
informants. And the informants were relatives.
If you ever do dastardly deeds, I would recommend not informing any
relatives. Especially in-laws.
EDD
Topic:
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From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 12:24 PM
From the passage quoted earlier, about the narrator mentioning he
has been "falling ever since" from the circle--that is an image
straight from Paradise Lost and, of course, from the Bible, and
symbolically links the narrator with those of the "fallen" demons.
Interesting that I never noted that before.
I find a major theme in Kundera's novel when he notes the chaos
produced by "graphomania:"
The proliferation of mass graphomania among politicians, cab
drivers, women on the delivery table, mistresses, murderers,
criminals, prostitutes, police chiefs, doctors, and patients proves to
me that every individual without exception bears a potential writer
within himself and that all mankind has every right to rush out into
the streets with a cry of 'We are all writers!'
The reason is that everyone has trouble accepting the fact he will
disappear unheard of and unnoticed in an indifferent universe, and
everyone wants to make himself into a universe of words before it's
too late.
Once the writer in every individual comes to life (and that time
is not far off), we are in for an age of universal deafness and
lack of understanding.
{I can't help but notice (intentional or not is debatable), but look at
his list of "people" in the above paragraph, particularly how females
fare. It goes from the woman in the agony of labor and ends with
"prostitutes." It is an interesting list when one scrutinizes it.}
The characters in this novel tend to be "graphomaniacs." There's also
the sense that without writing, events and emotions are forgotten.
It seems once the event or the emotion is encased in words, then
one need not exercise the memory anymore. The art of
memorization, of imagining the past through the filters of the
present, is a necessary art. Besides, the novel opens with an image
of a "graph"--the political photograph--airbrushed and changed so as
to "read" something different. Kundera implies that someone like
Tamina should not focus so hard on the "words" in old love letters
and such to bring back the past. Notice her ability to imagine her
husband's face is flawed; she's hooked on a universe of words.
And you know two universes can't live near one another, like, say
shoe cobblers.
Dan
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera (15 of 105),
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 12:59 PM
Mr. Warbasse and I usually see eye to eye on these things, but in
this case we do disagree. The erasure of Zdena absolutely smacked
of central European male arrogance to me and not merely a political
metaphor; indeed I thought politics was simply an excuse for the old
boyfriend to follow his natural inclinations in that matter. I've also
been moderately astonished to see such ugly threads about
male-female relations in the book being passed over very lightly
(except by Theresa who nailed it, I think, by comparing Kundera to
Updike in that regard, and also nailed it by suggesting that we're
more comfortable with Kundera's version of male nastiness because
he has that cool, continental European savoir your mama, which
excuses a great deal that wouldn't otherwise be tolerated so easily
by an American reader). In sum, I think Milan has written a very
clever little book here, but I'm not nearly as sure as some of the rest
of you that it's got much meat on its bones.
The Chilblained Lawyer
Topic:
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From:
Beatrice Soila (bpsoila@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 02:23 PM
This was one of those books that I enjoyed reading, but would have
to re-read to begin to analyze. Unfortunately, Finnish verbs are
calling my name...
Anyway, I did want to note the thread on music running through the
book, which I think is related to the "graphomania" idea and also to
the "Celebrity and Pulp" thread in CS.
There are several places in TBOLAF where characters want
background music to be turned off. Then in Scenes 17 and 18 of the
second "Angels" chapter, there is a long description of how
"progress" (represented by Schoenberg and the twelve-tone
system)caused the history of music to end.
Kundera says:
"Those who are fascinated by the idea of progress do not suspect
that everything that is moving forward is at the same time bringing
the end nearer and that joyous watchwords like "forward" and
"farther" are the lascivious voice of death urging us to hasten to it."
However, in Kundera's view what is left after the death of music is
not silence but more and more music -- music everywhere --
"stereotyped harmonies, banal melodies, and rhythms..." Music has
become divorced from memory and the "Idiot of Music" become a tool
of the "President of Forgetting."
I think that there is a parallel with graphomania replacing memory
with words. I also wonder if this phenomenon could be a cause of
the cult of celebrity and "mindless entertainment." Is this too a way
of forgetting?
Bea
P.S. The attitude toward women in this book would have been more
disturbing to me if I had not some inkling that it was symbolic of
something else. On the other hand, I don't know if a re-reading
would, or would not, reveal any more "there" there.
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 02:31 PM
I guess I don't get too upset about the treatment of women in
Updike or Kundera, because my general tendency is to think, "This is
a fictional character who is a jerk in his attitude towards woman.
And since actual jerks in that regard exist, as we all know only too
well, I'm willing to let fictional jerks exist.
Ruth, pondering if she's an easy mark
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 03:21 PM
Ruth wrote,
I guess I don't get too upset about the treatment of women in
Updike or Kundera, because my general tendency is to think, "This is
a fictional character who is a jerk in his attitude towards women.
And since actual jerks in that regard exist, as we all know only too
well, I'm willing to let fictional jerks exist.
To which I respond, Hallelujah! Creating an ordinary jerk in fiction is
fairly easy, but creating quintessential jerks, both male and female,
whom we meet each day, is an achievement to be celebrated. As to
whether characters or stories reflect their author's own opinions, I
say that the more irritating/aggravating/ingratiating the character is,
the less he/she has to do with the author's own feelings and
perceptions, for reasons I could go on for days about. But, dinner
soon awaits...
>>Dale in Ala.
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From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 07:09 PM
I find this a great thread, full of provocative ideas and questions.
I would note that I haven't read the book and that the postings and
quotes here have convinced me that nohow, noway would I want
to. I have not yet, but I think I will have to go off and wrestle with
why I feel this book is so much against my "grain."
That said, these comments:
Dale said:
Whatever Marquez intended, for me it was a beautiful allegory of
what writers do...telling, in some ways, the
"same" stories century after century, but reminding us of what is
important in our lives when our culture distracts us to forgetfulness
in that regard.
I think that "reminding us of what is important in our lives" beautifully
describes what books and writings do for us and why we almost
clutch them - even the P.G. Wodehouse stories and the like. I
wonder whether Kundera does this - satisfactorily "reminds" us or
just stirs up the pot. I know that the "reminding" books need to have
substance and life, and . . . ?
Daniel quotes from TBOLAF:
The reason is that everyone has trouble accepting the fact he will
disappear unheard of and unnoticed in an indifferent
universe, and everyone wants to make himself into a universe of
words before it's too late. Once the writer in every individual comes
to life (and that time is not far off), we are in for an age of
universal deafness and lack of understanding.
"everyone has trouble accepting . . ." A very nasty sentence this;
you, an everyone, have these troubles. Do I? I gather that Kundera
resents the fact that other people may want to write and compete
with him so he attributes their writing, all writing, to a fear of a
death not sufficiently mourned by the world. And, by implication, all
living of life to a fear of death. I just think there is a more balanced
view.
Further to this, the passage Bea quotes:
Those who are fascinated by the idea of progress do not suspect
that everything that is moving forward is at the same time bringing
the end nearer and that joyous watchwords like "forward" and
"farther" are the lascivious voice of death urging us to hasten to it.
Note how "forward" and "farther" are ironically characterized as
"joyous watchwords." Watchwords ? ? ?
And Dale says:
To which I respond, Hallelujah! Creating an ordinary jerk in fiction is
fairly easy, but creating quintessential jerks, both male and female,
whom we meet each day, is an
achievement to be celebrated.
Yes, I'm sure that there is some great literature that has its merit in
the portrait of a "quintessential jerk," but to encourage the darlings
by celebrating the creation of their portrait?
PRES
How do I know what I think until I see what I say?
Topic:
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Monday, October 18, 1999 09:04 PM
Pres, I wish you would read this book because it really isn't the
entirely negative diatribe our quotations might have led you to
expect. There is some real feeling in this book as well, although I
grant you the overall tone is one of sadness, anger and loss.
Kundera is a satirist and most of his humor is not kind. It has a bite
to it that not everyone will enjoy. But he is also capable of treating
some of his characters with great tenderness and sympathy. In this
book, it is Tamina whom he treats gently.
For example, in the first "Angels" chapter the narrator, who also
describes the painful loss of his father, compares his book to the
variations of Beethoven. He says:
It is not surprising that in his later years variations became the
favorite form for Beethoven, who knew all too well (as Tamina and I
know) that there is nothing more unbearable than lacking the being
we loved, those sixteen measures and the interior world of the
infinitude of possibilities.
I think that is a beautiful expression of the nature of loss.
In the UNBEARABLE LIGHTNESS OF BEING, he deals similarly with
Tereza. Both of these characters are women. Perhaps it is his ability
to create real and sympathetic women which distinguishes him from
Updike (although I really shouldn't say because Updike has never
interested me enough to finish one of his books).
Dick is right that many of his characters are outrageous sexists.
There are so many womanizers in his stories that I have concluded
this must be part of his own character. However, he mocks these
womanizers unmercifully and they never seem to obtain real
satisfaction. That is probably why my feminist side finds it so easy to
forgive him.
Steve, I want to thank you for linking Petrarch quotes on the
incompatibility of love and joking with Jane's quote from the last
chapter where laughter during love making risks crossing to the other
side of the border, "where things no longer have meaning." Overall, I
still think that Petrarch is an object of ridicule, but Kundera does give
him some meaningful lines, among them the ones you quoted.
Kundera seems to be talking about the devil's kind of laughter in both
cases, the kind based on ridicule or the incongruity of a joke. If you
go too far in this direction, (as for example with literary satire?), you
may risk crossing to the other side of the border, "where everything
-love, convictions, faith, history-no longer has meaning."
This is a great discussion, folks, and you're all helping me see those
connections I missed on the first read.
Ann
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 01:08 AM
Ann, I am just going to take a seat over here on the side and kibitz
for awhile until the obligatory phase of the discussion dealing with
whether the author or one of his characters was properly respectful
of women is concluded. I have participated in more than enough of
those and have gotten too old and cranky to care whether a
particular author or his creation is properly respectful of women or
blacks or Jews or American Indians or Indian Indians or animals or
rain forest or midgets or anyone or anything else. All that and who
here is troubled by it just seem so utterly beside the point. I am sure
I am in error with this attitude, but it's just the way I am.
Wild Man
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From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 12:33 PM
Earlier, someone noticed the music motif which runs through
Kundera's work. How interesting that Kundera takes the time to
actually explain to the reader how this book is to be approached,
using "music" as an analogy:
This entire book is a novel in the form of variations. The individual
parts follow each other like individual stretches of a journey leading
towards a theme, a thought, a single situation, the sense of which
fades into the distance.
It is a novel about Tamina, and whenever Tamina is absent, it is a
novel for Tamina. She is its main character and main audience, and
all the other stories are variations on her story and come together
in her life as in a mirror.
It is a novel about laughter and forgetting, about forgetting and
Prague, about Prague and the angels. By the way, it is not the least
bit accidental that the name of the young man sitting at the wheel
is Raphael...
I find this a very humorous section--the author taking the time to
"explain" the structure and organization of his creation, while within
the same work he has been complaining that there is too much
writing going on. Then, I love the final sentence--from authorial
discussions he shifts right back into the narrative proper with a cute
little sequitar --"By the way, Reader, it is very VERY important you
keep "ANGELS" in mind considering that the man driving Tamina away
is RAPHAEL, an ANGEL, GET IT? GET IT? ISN'T THAT CLEVER?" While I
can't prove it, I believe Kundera is intentionally poking fun at
authorial intrusions.
Recall the literary critical school of "Reader Response," with Stanley
Fish and fellows. I always thought that Fish allowed the reader too
much interpretive freedom, actually asserting that the reader creates
the overall text and the author's purpose is negligible. I always
preferred Wolfgang Iser's approach--the author must establish his
text as best as possible to guide readers to the conclusions the
author wishes the readers to conclude when concluding the text.
However, if he is a weak writer (of course, Iser allows "weak
readers," but let's stick to writers for now) or such, he is "mis-read"
and readers come away with "mistakes" and such. Here Kundera
seems to have fun with the reader's responses. Hell, he takes the
time to tell you HOW to READ his BOOK--it's a NOVEL, but it is a
series of VARIATIONS, but TAMINA is the core character. "Why thank
you, Author, I was so befuddled before and now I'm more befuddled
than ever."
"Don't mention it, Reader. Everything's fine, I'm a pretty decent
writer."
So Tamina is his "main character," the character "raped" by children
(Kundera's verb choice, not my own) and then left to drown in the
"cold water." I personally liked Tamina's character, but I am baffled
by the fantasy ending of her appearance. The island of children? The
impossibility of escape (she swims all night and finds herself still off
shore come break of day).
What are we to make of the entire Island of Children sequence? I
look forward to some of your comments regarding how this whole
fantasy fits into the novel.
Dan
Topic:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 12:46 PM
In the interview, Kundera makes it clear that the island of children is
not a metaphor. I'm at a loss here. If it's not a metaphor, what
possible meaning can we give it? Surely not a literal one, and if not
literal, why this flight into fantasy? And how does fantasy function in
this novel if not as metaphor?
Ruth
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
Topic:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 02:06 PM
Perhaps we should recall the school of thought that holds the last
person to ask about the meaning of a piece of literature is the
author.
The Chilblained Lawyer
Topic:
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 03:00 PM
I thought Kundera said it wasn't an "allegory", Ruth. How would you
define "allegory" as opposed to "metaphor?"
Sherry
Topic:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 04:29 PM
Sherry, you caught me. I spoke without looking back at that
interview. Does anyone know the difference between allegory and
metaphor? Perhaps a metaphor is a thing and an allegory is a story?
Ruth, who was 50 before she learned the difference between a
metaphor and a simile
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 05:04 PM
An allegory is a work in which fictionalized characters stand for
generalized human traits or values, with the entire tale designed to
provide some instructive lesson to the reader. Perhaps Pilgrim's
Progress would be a good example of allegory, although many, many
works contain allegorical components. A metaphor is simply a figure
of speech, typically substituting a facially dissimilar word or phrase
for a more usual construction, all for the purpose of suggesting a
comparison or analogy in more than usually colorful terms. Examples
abound, including "Dying to meet you" and "Up to your ears in debt",
to name two.
I would guess Milan is telling us, if he really knows, that his book is
not didactic in a moral sense, and perhaps that it is not meant for
any general application to the human condition, but instead, focuses
solely on his peculiar (not in the sense of odd) world view and
experience.
The Chilblained Lawyer
Topic:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 06:30 PM
Well I was sorta right on the allegory when I said it was a story. My
understanding of a metaphor, though, is that it substitutes one thing
for another. Such as "camels are the ships of the desert." (A simile
being, "camels are like the ships of the desert.")
But I could be wrong. Or perhaps my understanding of metaphor is
too limited?
Ruth, operating in a most unlawyerly/librarianly way, and not looking
things up
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 07:23 PM
Ruth: For whatever it's worth, I think you're right with that particular
example. I think we (at least I) frequently misuse metaphor by
making too-expansive references with the term: "Moby Dick is a
metaphor for sexual obsession" for example, when I probably really
mean symbol. It's just that I hate using the word 'symbol', except in
math, and have done ever since high school. Usually, everyone is
kind and overlooks my error.
The Chilblained Lawyer
Topic:
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From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 08:26 PM
I went back to message #1 in this thread to re-read the interview,
since another statement that Kundera made had stuck in my mind:
" The basic event of the book is the story of totalitarianism, which
deprives people of memory and thus retools them into a nation of
children."
Wasn't that a recurring theme throughout, the state's attempt to
create a paradise where living was only in the present, unspoiled by
memory? And the people who accept such a condition and live only
for the enjoyments of the present---are they not like children? Do
children have memory--and did Adam and Eve?
David
Topic:
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From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 08:39 PM
M.H. Abrams defines "allegory" as narrative fiction in which the
agents and actions, and sometimes the setting as well, are
contrived to make coherent sense on the "literal", or "primary" level
of signification, and at the same time to signify a second, correlated
order of agents, concepts, and events. He goes on to note that
allegory can take the form of parables or fables.
He defines "metaphor" as a word or expression which in literal usage
denotes one kind of thing or action is applied to a distinctly different
kind of thing or action, without asserting a comparison.
Look at those two, Ruth--they are not that far apart in meaning.
Both mean something on a literal level and yet signify something else.
So what if Kundera notes the fantasy sequence isn't an allegory--no
writer freely admits he deals in allegory because it is considered a
base form of writing (note Abrams' use of the word 'contrived' in his
definition of allegory--definitely a word most would not want
associated with their blessed writings). Dostoyevsky uses the phrase
"My God this is not allegory" throughout his novel The Possessed in
order to force the reader to attend that his narration of events was
not just a comment on a political situation.
So what of Tamina's final scene? Why the fantasy? Kundera implies it
is not "allegory," so we should (if we choose to listen to the
author--we don't have to, we know)rule out simplistic interpretations
such as "the children are the sexual innocence and the water is the
cold political climate from which Tamina cannot escape" and such.
Which, if you ask me, leaves us with nothing to do with the scene
except wonder, "Why?"
Dan
Topic:
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From:
Beatrice Soila (bpsoila@aol.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 08:58 PM
David --
Your reading just seems so right to me. I see a tie to the part where
the one emigrant the President of Forgetting could not bear to lose
was the Idiot of Music.
Bea
Topic:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Tuesday, October 19, 1999 09:19 PM
There seem to be some other possible classical references here --
Tamina as opposed to Tamino or Pamina from Mozart's Die
Zuberflote. Recall the role of the Magic Flute in protecting the lovers
from all manner of hellfire and political damnation. Seems too close
for comfort to me.
The Chilblained Lawyer
Topic:
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From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 20, 1999 02:28 AM
Ruth -- to go back to definition and differentiation of metaphor and
simile -- YOU, Ruth, are the winner. This is the basic distillation of
the two -- metaphor is substitution of the one for the other as in
your camels are the ships of the desert and similes employ like or as
to make a comparison relationship -- the sun was like flowing melted
butter. We also threw in personification for good measure!
THIS was one of my favorite sections in our poetry unit with Third
Graders which I did for many years with one teacher and later with
another teacher with whom I worked! The poems those children
created were often big surprises and often the most surprising ones
broke our hearts! But they always got simile and metaphor and once
in a while at the end of sixth grade one of them would say I still
remember simile and metaphor and then proceed to prove that they
did indeed! The joys of teaching!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:57 AM
As I've thumbed through this one I've come across a number of
names that aren't familiar to me; clearly Milan uses many historical
names in the book and just as clearly some that are fictional.
Whether this is allegorical, metaphorical or simply whimsical is up for
grabs, but I did check out a few of them just to satisfy my curiosity.
Thus, Novalis is a real poet:
http://www.io.com/~smith/novalis/
And, I knew Lermontov was real, but knew nothing about him:
http://inls.ucsd.edu/y/poems.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/8087/lermontovbio.html
However, I can find no trace of Karel Klos. And the only web result
for Masturbov is a rather enchanting porn site for 'Girls of the Czech
Republic', which you can get in either English or Czech (the latter if
you want to work on your foreign language skills: for example, I think
I can now say 'non-dairy cool whip and applicator' in Czech).
The Chilblained Lawyer
Topic:
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From:
David Moody (davidmoody@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:11 PM
Masturbov didn't strike me as a real name at all, but as a
commentary on the type of person.
David
Topic:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 20, 1999 12:22 PM
Well, I wasn't exactly holding my breath for a Polituro member named
Masturbov to pop up on the search screen, but you never know....
Incidentally, Tamina turns up a number of results, but the most
interesting is her appearance on a list of Norwegian cat names:
http://home.powertech.no/skogkatt/names.html
So at last the symbolism/metaphor of the children's island becomes
clear to me. After her owner dies she wanders off and gets lost,
hunting for Squirrels and Canaries. Later, the kids were rubbing her
tummy and she was purring. Then they put her in a metaphorical
gunny-sack and tossed her into the ocean to drown.
The Chilblained Lawyer
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 20, 1999 05:09 PM
Gee, Dick, thank you for that cheerful interpretation of Tamina's
demise.
I wondered if the poets in this book represented real Czech authors,
each of whom had been given the name of a similar, but more famous
counterpart (Petrarch, Boccaccio, etc). My guess is that Czech
readers understood a lot of obscure references that go over our
heads.
The book we are reading has been translated twice. It was originally
written in Czech and then translated into French. My copy was then
translated from the French into English by Aaron Asher. What, if
anything, do you suppose has been lost in the process?
I have been thinking about Dan's comment about Kundera's inserting
himself into the narrative and actually telling us what kind of book he
is trying to write. These authorial intrusions are typical of Kundera's
books. I know they are artificial, but my interest perked up whenever
they occurred. I felt that the author was really talking to me now
and I had better pay attention. How did the rest of you feel about
them?
I wasn't sure if the "I" really represented Kundera or yet another
fictional character. Maybe we don't need to know. Just for the
record though, his father was a musicologist The parts dealing with
the father may have been based on Kundera's own life.
I'm not sure Kundera entirely succeeds in his goal of creating a
unified work, as he describes in "The Angels" (1), Section 8. For
example, do you think the following is true?
It is a novel about Tamina, and whenever Tamina goes offstage, it
is a novel for Tamina. She is its principal character and its principal
audience, and all the other stories are variations on her own story
and meet with her life as in a mirror.
Ann
Topic:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Wednesday, October 20, 1999 05:26 PM
Well, the literal version of Tamina's demise wasn't all that cheerful
either, so at least I was sustaining the mood.
Actually, I'm waiting for WM to haul himself out of his lawn-chair on
the sidelines there and deliver himself of one of his patented, and
justifiably renowned, "gathering and unraveling of literary threads"
notes. I'm afraid this all seems excessively cerebral to me, involuted
and purposefully obscure. Rather like some of my least favorite
French films, in which the script consists largely of pregnant pauses
and meaningful silences, all viewed through drifting shrouds of
cigarette smoke. The kind of movie that seizes your heart and soul
at age 20 but leaves you stupefied and dozing at 50.
But, I'll be candid. Beyond the obvious sardonic comments and witty
asides, I don't get this book. Maybe it's like Faulkner: I just need
another 40 years of seasoning to appreciate it.
The Chilblained Lawyer
Topic:
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 01:43 AM
Odd you should mention it, Richard. I am reclining in my lawn chair
and chuckling as we speak.
Every one of your observations is very well taken. Fact is that
everyone's posts about this book have been thought provoking, to
say the least. A great thread, what with the music discussion and
all!
But to the point. I respect that statement that you don't "get it."
Hell, I don't get it either in the altogether. Never meant to mislead
anyone that I had. Yet, there were lots of passages that really
connected with me, albeit perhaps like some of those black and
white French movies viewed through cigarette smoke. (I need not go
into detail here about those images that were most particularly
striking and why, lest we turn some CR's hair purple.) Moreover, I
can see here that lot's of Kundera's stuff connected with you, too.
Dick! Hello! This is big time artsy-craftsy stuff we're dealing with
here. You don't HAVE to get it in the altogether. There's probably
nothing to GET in the altogether. Maybe ya oughta loosen up more,
y'ole bastard.
Wild Man
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From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 09:34 AM
Steve, don't be such a coward (or maybe you really have nothing to
say - you're holding your tongue because there's nothing there and
you don't want to admit it?)
Ann, I agree, Kundera differs from Updike in that he is able to portray
his female characters as human beings rather than paper dolls. So
maybe that is why I appreciate him so much more than Updike.
And Dick, my impression is that 20-year-olds usually go for films with
more action. Those French films with lots of pauses would usually
appeal to older viewers, wouldn't they?
Theresa
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 11:25 AM
Now that's a fine thing. I endanger my immortal soul by sifting
through dozens of pictures of naked female Czech Republicans,
looking for clues on Masturbov, and the meaning of life and the book
and everything and now Steve suggests that "maybe there's nothing
to get"? Well I'm sorry. But as an American, when I buy a book
advertised as the purest of intellectual brain-farts, I expect serious
stuff to get. Piles of it. Heaps. Taller than than the tallest cotton, if
you get my drift here. Some solidity, as it were. A heavy, red,
dripping chunk of beefsteak as opposed to some thin-sliced nouveau
scallop of veal. A massive Dodge Ram 2500 of a book, and not some
limp-sprung Fiat or I suppose to make the comparison pure, some
rusty Skoda. I am crushed. I open my heart to literature, and with
what result? Some central European trickery? It is enough to make
one reconsider the entire concept of reading.
On the bright side however, I did get to see all those naked women.
And no, Theresa, just as you so delicately imply, life past 50 is
absolutely replete with lengthy pauses and silences. Paying $8 at the
art house for more of them, with subtitles, is absolutely out of the
question. By the way; have you noticed how exhausting it is to
watch one of those low-dialogue movies with subtitles? You keep
waiting and waiting for something to happen and be said, and the
tension waiting for the next line of dialogue to scroll across the
screen becomes unbearable. You're afraid that if you blink you may
miss the entire plot? And even afterward, standing on the sidewalk
outside the theater, you're not entirely convinced that you didn't
blink and that maybe you really did miss the entire plot? Sort of like
here?
The Chilblained Lawyer
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 11:33 AM
Theresa, Dick, Consigliere & All: So, I gather that you guys don't
think there is even the faint possibility that Kundera was writing all of
this stuff tongue-in-Czech?
>>Dale in Ala.
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 11:42 AM
Dale: A definite possibility; curiously your suggestion dovetails
precisely with some of the pictures I found on 'Girls of the Czech
Republic'. I think we may finally be getting someplace with this book.
The Chilblained Lawyer
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From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:32 PM
Punning aside, I think Dale's on to something there--as I said earlier,
I do think Kundera is writing "tongue in Czech" quite often, even
during the auto-narrative bits. For him as writer, everyone and
everything is up for laughs--characters, personal anecdotes, novel
techniques, and reader expectations.
Note in the Roth interview Kundera's fondness for Tristram Shandy ,
Laurence Sterne's novel about how stupid some things in novels are.
In one scene, a character in Tristram Shandy throws himself onto a
bed in a display of emotional anguish. The narrator shifts to another
subject for a while. When he returns to the "anguished" character on
the bed, the character is "bored" now in this pose awaiting the
author's return and has begun tapping one foot on the floor playfully,
awaiting something new to happen.
Sterne's novel is full of humor like that, and I find a similarity
between it and Kundera's work in technique mainly. There's Kundera's
"I'll make a character now and name her Tamina and place her..."
speech in one section as well as that line I quoted earlier about "By
the way, notice the guy driving the car is named Raphael..." quip.
The poet section is also funny, in the sense that here are these
stuffy poets around a table and the most critical statement about
another poet is he "doesn't get enough ass." Is this a pantheon of
poets or cadre of boors kicking back some brew? Notice the whole
poetry discussion is largely filtered through the senses of the
student, who is in awe of Goethe and company. By using the names
of famous and legendary poets, Kundera creates a surreal tableaux
that is hilarious as much as it is confusing.
Dick: What does "Tamina" being a cat's name in Norway have to do
with a novel set in Czechslovakia and written in France? Could you,
in your internet expertise, find out what the root word that "Tamina"
springs from? Actually, I like the reference made earlier about its
connection to Mozart's Magic Flute, , since that opera and this novel
also have some similarities.
Dan
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From:
Beatrice Soila (bpsoila@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 01:05 PM
In The Magic Flute, Tamino is the hero. He is sent on a quest by the
Queen of the Night to rescue her daughter, Pamina, from the
clutches of Sarastro, a king and leader of a priesthood that closely
resembles the Freemasons. There is a big switcharoo and it turns out
that the Queen is the villain of the piece. Tamino and Pamina are
entirely noble and good.
Don't know what this has to do with TBOLAF except that the opera
was a big hit in Prague. The Czechs always appreciated Mozart more
than the Viennese, during his lifetime anyway.
Bea
Topic:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 02:51 PM
I think I'm satisfied not to "get" this book. For me, it suffices to have
it be a series of loosely linked episodes, some of which have left me
thinking.
Ruth, who promises to speak to the resident Norwegian about Tamina
Cats
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
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The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera (48 of 105),
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 05:07 PM
I agree, Ruth. This book doesn't work all the time, but there are
some wonderful pieces. That's good enough for me.
Dick, in my opinion, Kundera's THE UNBEARABLE LIGHTNESS OF BEING
is a much better book. Kundera uses a lot of the same stylistic tricks
in that one, but he seems to have more meaningful things to say.
Maybe you should try that one and see if you dislike it as well. :)
Ann
Topic:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 05:35 PM
Ann: This is probably hard to believe, but I don't really dislike this
book; I just don't get it. Believe me. When I dislike a book, there is
no mistaking the reaction. But will re acquaint myself with TULOB,
which I believe I read some time back and recall very little about. Or
maybe I blinked during the subtitles in the movie version and
awakened imagining having read it. Anything is possible at this stage
of my particular ballgame.
Dan'l: No idea what Norwegian cats have to do with drowned Czech
heroines. I would note, though, that the website in question has to
do with Norwegian cat names, and not necessarily Norwegian cats. A
thin distinction but one that perhaps can be illumined by Leif the
resident Norwegian (in fact Leif ought duck over to that 'Girls of the
Czech Republic' and see if he recognizes any former patients. Purely
professional visit, of course.)
The Chilblained Lawyer
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From:
Diane Freeman (dfreeman@jeffco.k12.co.us)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 07:57 PM
I am jumping into the discussion late and with what may be a silly
remark. I am actually a Kundera fan but was not actually going to
re-read this selection until Jane shamed me into it. OK, so here I am
pointing out that the quote in post #11 of Petrarch's response that
"Love can't be laughable. Love has nothing in common with laughter"
made me wake up to the fact that one of Kundera's early works was
entitled "Laughable Loves." It is described on the back cover as
"seven dazzling stories of sexual comedy." It seems fairly consistent
in his work that men are energetic but unhappy womanizers.
I agree that The Unbearable Lightness of Being was a much finer
book, and "The Joke" (written before he moved to France, I believe)
is a more straightforward poke at the government. Unfortunately, in
this re-reading, The Book of Laughter and Forgetting suffered from
my initial exposure. I wonder if it isn't something comparable to the
earlier comment about what we can enjoy at what age. I think I
used to like being mystified by works that seemed barely
comprehensible (I loved Richard Brautigan for years, and Ferlinghetti
is still a favorite) but now I'm just frustrated or dissatisfied.
However, I do like those foreign films with little dialogue. I don't mind
reading a movie, but I can't speed read one through the smoke filter!
Diane, rambling as usual
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From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 08:47 PM
Diane,
It is amazing that we have been so busy that we haven't seen each
other for a couple of weeks, so I am replying here. (For those who
don't know, Diane and I work together.)
I found your comment very interesting. It seems as if you have read
several of Kundera's works and are able to do some comparing. This
is the first Kundera that I have read, and it may be the last. I am
happy that I read this book because of this discussion, but I
probably won't read another of Kundera's books unless one ends up
on one of our official reading lists.
Jane
Topic:
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From:
Mary Anne Papale (mapreads@aol.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 09:24 PM
All, I have been lurking on this wonderful discussion because I was
too busy to re-read this book. But I read it and several other of
Kundera's books years ago. And Diane is quite right: there is an
inter-connected quality to his books. For example, the erasure of
Zdena is more about the "lightness of being", and what it means to
be considered so inconsequential as to be almost non-existent.
I do think that Kundera is one author whose work improves by
re-reading or reading his other stuff. At least that made me feel like I
got it.
MAP
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From:
Jim Heath (ddrapes@teleport.com)
Date:
Thursday, October 21, 1999 11:05 PM
I was shocked to read Dale's "tongue in czech" remark. One can only
hope this doesn't lead to a degeneration of this discussion to the
point where we are considering the Prague abortionist who produced
a lot of cancelled Czechs.
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From:
Theresa Simpson (theresa.a.simpson@gte.net)
Date:
Friday, October 22, 1999 12:07 AM
I agree that Kundera's books gain from being read en masse (and
re-read, although I know a few of you will doubt this.) I prefer
Laughter and Forgetting to Unbearable Lightness of Being - I think
Laughter is the more complicated book.
And, yes Dale, I do think Kundera is tongue in cheek, even when he's
being serious at the same time. He just can't help himself - didn't I
tell y'all he's a rogue?
I thought of Laughable Loves too when reading this book, and
mentioned it lo these several posts ago.
I think The Magic Flute is exactly the right connection, Beatrice.
Remember, the Communists started out as the heroes, inviting
everyone to partake equally in the circle dance, and ended up the
villains, just as in Tamina's life? Tamina is a combination of the names
of the heroes of Magic Flute - by Jove, I think you've got it! (The
origin of Tamina's name, that is.)
Dick, we must know different 20-year-olds. Those I've come across
want to watch action flics, not pauses and silences.
Theresa
Topic:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Friday, October 22, 1999 12:15 AM
OMIGAAAAAAAAAWD, Jim.
Ruth
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
Topic:
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From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Friday, October 22, 1999 09:27 AM
Theresa and others: You really pulled this Magic Flute connection
together for me. I think that we have found the source for Tamina's
name and in the process a means to better understand Kundera's
technique.
I have read the short story collection Laughable Loves , and I don't
remember being too enamored of it.
I was wondering: The orgy scene at the end of the novel--is it just
me, or did that entire scene seem gratuitous? Maybe it was
supposed to bring together the ideas of laughter and sexuality in a
culminating scene, but I feel it was rather weak artistically.
Dan
Topic:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, October 22, 1999 09:31 AM
One way to think about the problem is to consider this: where in
literature can we find an artistically strong orgy scene?
The Chilblained Lawyer
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Friday, October 22, 1999 10:17 AM
Dan,
Communist sanctioned literature is very prudish. The orgy scene took
me by surprise. Maybe Kundera was reveling in his new found
freedom to express himself any way he chose once he had
emigrated. Actually, I think he just likes to talk about sex, although it
seldom satisfies his characters or makes them happy.
Ann
Topic:
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From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Friday, October 22, 1999 11:15 AM
Theresa: You speak of differences between the 20-year olds you
know and that I know. However, I know no 20 year-olds, except in
the unhappy circumstance when one of the little dears has been
maimed or mutilated in some horrible accident (not including
tattooing or piercing incidents) and therefore seeks my professional
services. I speak only of the ancient 20 year-olds; the ones of
legend and of myth and who now live only in memory. And maybe,
only my memory.
The Chilblained Lawyer
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 07:47 AM
Some of you questioned the point of the orgy scene and Ann
speculated that maybe Kundera just likes to write about sex, since it
had been such a taboo in Czechoslovakia. Sex is just about the most
personal subject I can imagine. It could also be the place in one's life
where you are free and joyous. Yet here, in a "party" where you're
supposed to be having fun, there's this hostess from hell who's
orchestrating people having sex as if she were Vince Lombardi and
this was the first Super Bowl. If people allow the most intimate part
of their lives to be controlled in this manner, aren't they going to be
really susceptible to the state that comes along in the name of
perfection and tells them how to live and what to do? I think the
orgy scene is a statement about people being so willing to be fodder
for totalitarianism.
Sherry
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 10:15 AM
That's a very interesting perspective, Sherry. My impression was
that this chapter took place in Western Europe rather than the
totalitarian Czechoslovakia. However, I think that there is a herd
instinct in human nature that can help explain subjection both to a
political dictator, and a sexual one.
Ann
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 11:06 AM
Sherry: Very interesting question. On a related note...back in the old
days when CRs were trying online to decide whether to attempt a
face-to-face meeting, I think much of the initial hesitation paralleled
my own.
I'm somewhat reserved, basically a loner and a hermit who fears
social situations, and independent-minded enough that it chaps my
hide to have somebody telling me what to do. I have never been a
joiner because, in my past experience, every group had one
self-appointed social director from hell who lived to work his/her will
on a group of people, sort of like the border collies that herd sheep:
"Oh, you MUST come with us!" "Oh, you CAN'T go there, go HERE..."
"You can't leave yet, the party's just getting started!"
Thankfully, CR is the first group in my life that does not have a social
director from hell. At CR reunions both large and mini-, it's live and
let live, with everybody free to go or stay on whim. Long may it live!
>>Dale in Ala.
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 11:19 AM
Ann,
I have forgotten where the orgy took place, but it certainly makes
sense that it didn't happen in Czechoslovakia. But I don't think that
matters. Maybe Kundera was commenting on how people allow
totalitarianism to take place in any venue, whether it's political or
social or sexual. And that in any case, it's not a satisfying way to
live.
Sherry
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 11:21 AM
Sherry, that's a brilliant idea. I very much disliked not only the orgy
but the Tamina-on-the-Children's Island section. Your explanation
could be extended to cover that, too. People who let themselves be
bossed around by children (who are notoriously cruel, self-centered
and without consciousness of the results of their actions) are in
serious trouble.
Ruth
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
Topic:
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 02:01 PM
I'm blushing Ruth. Thanks. I was bothered by the children on the
island chapter, too, at first, but it does make sense in the context of
the theme of totalitarianism. It's not just that children are cruel, it's
that the perfect society made it necessary for the citizens to be
children to survive in the system. And then once they were children,
they acted like them. In the children chapter, Tamina was seduced
at first, coddled and cared for by them. She sank into an easy
sexuality, because it was the way for her to survive and be a part of
the society. But because she was an adult, with an advanced
sensibility it wasn't enough to satisfy her. She wanted to get out,
and they destroyed her for her desire to overstep the status quo.
She swam and swam (haven't you all had dreams where you are
running and running and never get there?) to try to "go back" but
there was no "back" to go to. She was sucked in, swallowed. Sounds
like what happens to a lot of dissidents.
Sherry
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From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 03:04 PM
Sherry: Thank you so very much. I like your interpretation of that
puzzling orgy scene. And the one act the "director from hell" cannot
tolerate is laughing, the risible residue of revelry. The two guys get
kicked out of the club--out of the circle, in Kundera's symbolic
scheme--because they enjoyed themselves too much.
Dick: I'm not sure--an artistically strong orgy scene? When I come
across one, I'll let you know.
Dan
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From:
Ann Davey (davey@tconl.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 05:59 PM
The ideal of Communism is: from each according to his ability, to
each according to his needs. It really does assume that the citizens
are children, unable to fend for themselves, doesn't it?
Sherry, I like your interpretation of the orgy a lot. I think it is also
true that Kundera is obviously aiming for some sexual titillation in the
orgy scene, as well as the menage a trois scene at the beginning,
and even in describing the sexual play of those oh so naughty
children.
Ann
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 07:17 PM
Oh, I agree, Ann. There could have been lots of other scenarios
(besides sexy ones) where he could have made his point. But I think
we wouldn't have paid attention quite so intently.
Sherry
Topic:
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From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 07:31 PM
Yeah, sex does have a way of grabbing our attention, doesn't it?
Ruth
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
Topic:
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From:
Jane Niemeier (jniemeie@hotmail.com)
Date:
Sunday, October 24, 1999 08:22 PM
Sherry,
Thanks for that note about the orgy. It helped me to understand this
novel better. I still don't like it very much, but I am glad that I read
it.
Jane
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From:
Edd Houghton (eddh@pacbell.net)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 12:40 AM
There are sure to be some good orgies in Thorne Smith's works. But
Smith is so funny, I may have forgotten if there was some
intellectual climax included in all the others.
But, if anyone has NIGHT LIFE OF THE GODS, read it and enjoy;
there is assuredly something intellectual those gods and goddesses
were including in their frolics.
EDD
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, November 30, 1999 09:20 AM
Daniel, I just wanted to let you know that I picked up In the Memory
of the Forest by Charles T. Powers, primarily because of remarks
about it by Barbara Moors and you. It is an enjoyable read and a
helluva novel considering it is his first. Thanks for tipping me off.
Wild Man
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From:
Daniel LeBoeuf (dan1066@yahoo.com)
Date:
Tuesday, November 30, 1999 10:50 AM
Any time, Steve--or should it be "Wild Man?"
Dan
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, November 30, 1999 01:09 PM
I answer to either, Daniel. In fact I think I am going back to "Steve"
for the foreseeable future. I fear the sobriquet leads newcomers to
the conclusion that I am something other than the innocuous,
nondescript soul that I really am.
Steve
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From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Tuesday, November 30, 1999 03:09 PM
But, Steve, 'encourageables' that we are -- you may have to forgive
us if that Wild Man slips into print here at times -- though we shall
just as happily call you Steve! Just glad to see you around again!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
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From:
Sheila Ash (sash@oxmol.co.uk)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 04:43 AM
Re Steve or Wild Man, Steve writes
"I fear the sobriquet leads newcomers to the conclusion that I am
something other than the
innocuous, nondescript soul that I really am."
Never!
But where did the Wild Man tag come from?
Sheila
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 06:38 AM
I wish I could answer that question, Sheila, but I cannot. The origins
of that nickname are lost in the misty, misty past. Admittedly, I was
quite lunatic when I first joined this group six years ago, so much so
that some of the original stalwarts apparently viewed my
determination to join them for the first CR get-together in San
Francisco with some trepidation. It may have been Dale or Thom or
Allen Crocker or Sara Sauers or the long lost Latin Bombshell, Maria,
who first uttered the phrase. I just don't remember.
The strange thing is that the nickname is extant among my few
friends here at home, too, none of whom know any Constant Readers
or even understand this place exists. It is an odd coincidence.
But enough about me. Let's talk about what you think of me for
awhile.
Steve
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 06:59 AM
What I want to know is, how did all this get tucked into the Kundera
thread?
Sherry
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 07:49 AM
Because, Sherry, way, way back up there in this thread somewhere,
Daniel mentioned In the Memory of the Forest, which is set in
Poland.
Steve
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From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 07:55 AM
To the Artist Formerly Known As Wild Man:
I have a pretty clear recollection (I think) of the inimitable Maria
Bustillos first applying this moniker to you in a board discussion. It
did, though, catch on like Wild Fire.
>>Dale in Ala.
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 08:00 AM
Thank you, Dale. That rings a bell. In defense of my own memory, I
did list her as one of the usual suspects.
Steve
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From:
Sheila Ash (sash@oxmol.co.uk)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 08:26 AM
Steve,
You've now got me worrying about what sort of tag name you are all
going to give me at the next convention!
Sheila
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 08:39 AM
Sherry, I feel constrained to return once more to your last question,
alarming as it is to me.
You really seem to have developed difficulty recently in tracking well:
laboring under the illusion that Junot Diaz is a woman; requiring that
notes posted here be broken up into innumerable paragraphs so that
you can better follow them; failing to discern how this recent
exchange here flows so naturally from the discussion of Milan
Kundera and indeed is so obviously part and parcel of it, just to
describe some of the more troubling examples of things I have
observed. All this is colored by mood swings coupled with a recent
compulsive use of animation.
Honey, are you all right?
Do you find that you are lying to yourself and others about the
extent of your drinking?
Do you drink to relieve the hangovers (hair of the dog and all)?
Are you hiding bottles around the house?
Have you suffered blackouts?
How is Tom holding up through this?
Are the children okay?
Is our reading list safe?
We all love you so much, baby, and who better to take this up with
you than one of your best and most trusted friends? I know that the
resolve to do something must come from within you yourself, but if
there is anything. . . .anything I can do, please, please call on me.
Steve
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 09:21 AM
It's SO good to have such concerned fiends, er, friends.
Sherry
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From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 10:17 AM
Sherry, of course I was prepared for this sarcasm, this rage, and this
complete denial.
Attack me if you must, but I know you don't mean the things you
say to me now.
This has nothing to do with moral turpitude, honey.
It's a disease, probably genetic.
I fear that it will only be when you bottom out that you will be able
to make the really big changes that are so obviously necessary.
I noticed aberrations in your conduct after the first of those CR
slumber parties.
Presley bears some responsibility for this, but I admit that I laughed
and joked about it right along with the others, and I feel so badly
about that now.
It was denial on my part, too.
Then there was your self-destructive insistence on continuing to use
a Macintosh in the face of overwhelming evidence of your own
degradation as a result.
Recently, it has progressed (it's a progressive condition) with the
tantrum about folks replying only to the last note in the thread
regardless of the addressee followed not a minute or two later with
your irrational elation over the cartoon thingies.
Just know that when you do bottom out, those of us who love you
will be right up here on the high ground ever ready to reach down to
you, awash in the viscous, noisome muck and mire that gurgles
through the gutters of Milwaukee. ["Your hair! Sherry, what has
happened to your beautiful hair? It's the little things that break my
heart the most!"]
Once we get you in lock-down, we can always shower at the local Y,
burn the clothes we came in, and powder ourselves right away with
that insecticide stuff.
Anyway, I would be willing to do that for you, baby.
I know Hanser would, too.
You were very kind to us in the old days when your body was
younger and could better withstand the punishment that you inflict
on it.
You know something? Charles T. Powers' In the Memory of the
Forest includes a very excellent portrayal of your affliction that you
might be interested in. Insight is always so important.
Sherry, focus for a minute now. Is the reading list in a safe place?
Does Tom know where it is?
Steve
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From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 10:39 AM
Here I am sitting at my computer, and I'm supposed to be working
but I can't because I am laughing so hard, and I have a very mean
boss. And I have to pack and I have to do laundry and such and
here you are (you, who claims to have so much work to do) penning
posts that are just breaking me up! All I can say is Help me before I
animate again!
Sherry
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera (87 of 105),
Read 30 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:05 AM
Now the hysteria.
I was prepared for that, too.
Your last reminded me of your forthcoming trip to Irving, Texas, and
the inevitable ensuing debauch with Presley.
Do you know anybody else in the Dallas/Fort Worth area who might
be able to look after you and help you if things degenerate badly
down there?
I mean, we all know the shape Presley herself will be in.
She will be of absolutely no help to you, Sherry!
Is Jerry at all reliable?
Do Tom and the children know you are going down there?
You might consider taking along a copy of In the Memory of the
Forest.
I have always placed a priority on my concern for you over my work.
You know that, honey.
About the reading list. . . . . . ?
Steve
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera (88 of 105),
Read 15 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:39 AM
The only solution I can see for the problem, is for you and Sara to
oversee this reunion. It's the only way. Otherwise, who knows what
will happen--Jerry won't be able to handle the pressure by himself.
Sherry
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera (89 of 105),
Read 19 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:44 AM
Say goodnight, Gracie. I'm spitting coffee into the keyboard.
Ruth
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera (90 of 105),
Read 18 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:48 AM
Good Night, George.
Gracie
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera (91 of 105),
Read 11 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Tonya Presley (tpresley@swbell.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:51 AM
Wild Man,
If my memory has not been completely pickled during my inevitable
decline, you acquired the moniker sometime during the whirlwind tour
you made into Ohio, Kentucky, Alabama, etc. between the S.F. and
N.O. conventions.
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera (92 of 105),
Read 10 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:53 AM
Gracie, do my eyes deceive me, or have you taken on certain
aspects of Groucho Marx?
Ruth
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting by Milan Kundera (93 of 105),
Read 9 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dale Short (dshort5005@aol.com)
Date:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 11:59 AM
Ruth: I was thinking of Groucho crossed with a Cheshire Cat...
>>Dale in Ala.
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (94 of 105), Read
67 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 09:59 AM
PRES
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (95 of 105), Read
71 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 10:08 AM
Possibly the most incisive response to the 'orgy in literature' issue
I've ever seen: Open-mouthed silence.
The Chilblained Lawyer
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (96 of 105), Read
71 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dottie Randall (randallj@ix.netcom.com)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 11:47 AM
Dick -- Maybe I'm not widely enough read -- can't recall any orgies
in those volumes!
Dottie
ID is an oxymoron!
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (97 of 105), Read
70 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 02:32 PM
Yes, Pres?
You were saying, Pres????
Pres??????????
Wild Man
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (98 of 105), Read
73 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Pres Lancaster (plancast@slip.net)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 03:29 PM
Let's see now -
Orgie-Porgie, Puddin' and Pie,
Kissed the girls and made them cry.
Perhaps the root-source of those cruel children in TBOLAF?
PRES, who thinks somebody should write a book about a Senior
Orgy. Experience is all.
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (99 of 105), Read
72 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Dick Haggart (law@haggart.com)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 04:38 PM
Pres: Books about Senior Orgies are called 'short stories'....
The Chilblained Lawyer
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (100 of 105),
Read 74 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 04:47 PM
Steve, did you see the notes on TBOL&F that were stringing out to
beyond the edge of the margin? We were having a lively discussion
of the orgy scene, and then Pres came up with the idea of starting a
Part II to bring the new messages back to the left of the margin. I
wonder, though, if the older new messages can be easily missed (the
last ones at the end of the old thread, I mean). Am I making any
sense at all?
Sherry
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (101 of 105),
Read 72 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Beatrice Soila (bpsoila@aol.com)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 04:56 PM
Sherry -
I know you weren't asking me but I do think we'll miss old notes if we
put the new topic as a subheading of the main heading. I think we
need to start a totally new topic under the main heading, in this
case "Reading List Books"." Also, the new topic title is so long in this
case that, at least on my screen, you can't really tell that it's
different than the old topic.
Bea
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (102 of 105),
Read 73 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 05:49 PM
Sherry, all I can tell you is that I have not missed a thing in
connection with the lively orgy discussion. Were you really fearful
that I would? Perhaps some neophyte might miss the lively orgy
discussion but not me. Never.
I did rather enjoy Pres's--shall we say-- terse note over here and
could not help replying.
Wild Man
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (103 of 105),
Read 72 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Sherry Keller (shkell@earthlink.net)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 07:59 PM
Just making sure, WM. Wanted to see how Pres' new system was
working.
Sherry
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (104 of 105),
Read 74 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
R Bavetta (rbavetta@prodigy.net)
Date:
Monday, October 25, 1999 11:05 PM
If we start Part 2 as a new thread directly under Reading List Books,
and label it clearly, I should think that would do it.
Ruth
Books are cheaper than wallpaper
Topic:
The Book of Laughter and Forgetting - ORGY Division (105 of 105),
Read 67 times
Conf:
READING LIST BOOKS
From:
Steve Warbasse (warbasse@prodigy.net)
Date:
Tuesday, October 26, 1999 09:46 AM
Oh, and Sherry, lest I forget, I too think your interpretation of the
significance of the orgy scene was brilliant. It really is about people
ceding control of very important parts of their lives to others. I had
not thought of this until you advanced the idea.
Wild Man
|
Milan Kundera
|
