Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (1 of 12), Read
      41 times 
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Tonya Presley t-pr@home.com 
 Date: 
      Monday, September 17, 2001 10:45 AM 


This discussion should have started 2 days ago by the
calendar, but I STILL have a couple hundred pages to
go. While I admit the stories manage to hold my interest
to some extent, the act of reading the book could more
aptly be described as "slogging through" at this point.

It started with the mental barrier: over 500 pages. I
would only very rarely choose a book of this length on
my own, I find them so often too much, but I must
confess I voted for this one. Another thing slowing me
down now, so near the finish line, is the fact that I've
been reading it for so long I believe I've already thought
of many of the revelations that are sure to come. The
disjointed construction of the book allowed me to think
outside the book, something I almost never do ordinarily.
I normally get into the flow of a book and put my brain
on cruise, allowing the author full control.

One of these instances was just last night, when I had
this distracting thought: 

younger (strange, uncontrollable) and older sisters.
Much older (starchy, distant) husband.
radical young man as a secondary element.
aging home as occasional setting.

One could make a pretty good case for Atwood's using
Howard's End as sole inspiration here!

Tonya

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (4 of 12), Read
      34 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Jane Niemeier jniemeie@hotmail.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, September 18, 2001 09:31 PM 


Tonya,
You have to finish the novel to see why I think that
Laura is the BLIND ASSASSIN. 

I thought that Iris and Laura were brought up to be
helpless. They had a smattering of education and were
not encouraged to do anything practical after their father
started losing his fortune. Iris did attempt to work in the
office of the factory, but she didn't seem very serious
about it. I am sure that this must have been typical of
their social class and time. Iris seemed to be a
decoration to her husband and his sister. Her life was
really intolerable, I thought.

Let me know when you have finished.
Jane

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (5 of 12), Read
      35 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:14 PM 


********************************************
***WARNING**** MAJOR PLOT SOILER************

Jane,
I have finished the novel and I would like you to
elaborate on why you thought Laura was the "blind
assassin." Was she an assassin because her suicide
seemed to end any chance Iris had for happiness and
because it was such an effective way of getting back at
Richard? The "blind" part could be because she was
oblivious to her sister's relationship with her lover.

But could Iris also be considered the blind assassin
because of the effects of her actions (or lack thereof) on
Laura, and her refusal to see that Richard was abusing
her? I could see that one coming a mile away, but Iris
seemed to choose not to know. It was difficult for me to
accept that she never even visited Laura in that mental
institution. Throughout the book there seems an
undertone of anger at Laura. Did that predate Laura's
suicide, or was it the result of it? Since the story is told
from the perspective of the present looking back on the
past, it's hard to tell.

Ann

P.S. Saint Maybe is my favorite Anne Tyler

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (6 of 12), Read
      34 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Tonya Presley t-pr@home.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:01 AM 


Jane, I have finished the book. but I'll admit, after taking
so long to read it, that a lot of detail has already flown
the coop.

The blind assassin-- I'll try to remember all this, and you
correct me if I'm wrong, okay? He is a man who made the
finest carpets in the world as a child, until the intricate
work blinded him. Then with his other senses heightened
as a result of his blindness, he became an assassin for
hire. But, when hired to kill the virgin sacrifice, he failed
and instead fell in love with her.

Together they escaped to outside the city walls, passed
themselves off as prophets to the invading barbarians,
and further escaped to live with whichever version of
mountain-dwellers you choose.

Is that about it?

I did try, in the beginning, to determine who the blind
assassin of the real story was supposed to be, and
although in lifestyle he most closely resembled Alex, I
couldn't make anyone really fit the parameters. My
feeling is that Iris was more blind than anyone, while her
sister displayed the more developed second sense
(hence her wacky habit of tinting photographs to indicate
inner thoughts and characteristics.)

More later; I promise I'll think about this book today. I
really haven't thought about it much at all, even all of the
last week I was reading it.

Tonya

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (7 of 12), Read
      23 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Jane Niemeier jniemeie@hotmail.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, September 19, 2001 09:47 PM 


Ann and Tonya,

**********************SPOILER**************

This is why I thought that Laura was the blind assassin
in the novel. After it became clear that Iris had written
the book, I was sure she thought of Laura as the spoiler
of her life. Laura was abused as a child, much as the
assassin the story, and then she killed herself before Iris
could get close to her again. Maybe part of Iris was
already dead after her lover was killed, but I think that
Laura's suicide about finished her off. She seemed not to
be able to function as a wife or mother after that.
Jane

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (8 of 12), Read
      24 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, September 19, 2001 10:58 PM 


******** Spoiler Alert***************

Jane,
Yes, I can certainly see that. I think it works both ways.
Laura also thought of Iris as the person who spoiled her
life.

How much of the ending caught you by surprise? I knew
the book within the book was about Iris, rather than
Laura, but the revelation at the end that Iris had actually
written it explained how that was possible. That
surprised me, but I had figured out long ago that Richard
was abusing Laura. Why do you suppose Iris was so
obtuse in ignoring all the signs?

Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (9 of 12), Read
      19 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Thursday, September 20, 2001 08:00 PM 


**********MORE SPOILERS********************
Sorry to be so tardy in checking in.
My initial reaction was that Iris was the Blind Assassin.
After I figured out fairly early that she was the woman
meeting Alex and not Laura, I started thinking of Iris as
quite duplicitous, and not naive at all. She knew that
Laura loved Alex, but she was the one sneaking around
with him. Once she knew that Richard would keep
telegrams of her own father's death from her, of course
she had to know that Laura would try to contact her
from the hospital. Yes, Iris was laid up with her
"condition", but she wasn't in a coma. She just really
didn't have any interest in considering Laura's plight.
But having said all this, I can see your points too, Jane.
It's fun to speculate about this.

MAP

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (10 of 12),
      Read 11 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net 
 Date: 
      Friday, September 21, 2001 01:05 PM 


I loved this book. The writing was wonderful. I
particularly liked how Atwood is able to coin metaphors
that are fresh and original, yet so apt that once you read
them you are convinced that there is no other way to
say it.

I had the plot twists figured out ahead of time, too, but
this book was about much more than plot. In fact, I think
Atwood may have wanted and planned to have the facts
gradually dawn on the reader.

I was captivated by the voice of Iris as an old woman.
She was so wonderfully cranky, and so on point with her
remarks.

Ruth

"Citizen!
Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry—all of it—is a trip
into the unknown. " Vladimir Mayakovksy

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (11 of 12),
      Read 13 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Beej Connor connorva@mindspring.com 
 Date: 
      Friday, September 21, 2001 01:22 PM 


Ruth, I started it and couldn't stay with it. I was
confused and the switch back and forth between the two
stories bothered me. So I put it down. Used to be, once I
started a book I would finish it, come hell or high water,
but I don't do that anymore.
Maybe I should pick this one up again and stick with it.


Beej


 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (12 of 12),
      Read 13 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net 
 Date: 
      Friday, September 21, 2001 02:01 PM 


If you hang on for awhile, Beej, the confusion soon
straightens itself out. I found this easy going once I
figured out that the Laura Chase book was a parallel
story, and that the scifi story was a metaphorical story
enclosed in the parallel story.

And as things go on, things are much less fractured.

Ruth

"Citizen!
Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry—all of it—is a trip
into the unknown. " Vladimir Mayakovksy

 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (13 of 26),
      Read 32 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Mary Anne Papale mapreads@aol.com 
 Date: 
      Saturday, September 22, 2001 08:01 PM 


Ruth, I agree with what you said about the cranky Iris.
It sort of reminded me of ALL PASSION SPENT, by
Sackville-West. It's that tone that says "I know they
won't approve, but I'm going to do this anyway."
By the way, I don't eat doughnuts, but I wish I had a
doughnut shop I could walk to every morning.

MAP

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (14 of 26),
      Read 29 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 23, 2001 09:11 AM 


I had a hard time with the fragmentation of the first few
chapters. But then, life echoed that fragmentation, and
any confusion I felt might not have come from the book.
The last two days, I've had big chunks of time to devote
to it, and it just flowed. So, Beej, I hope you keep with
it; it's worth it in the end. 

I am sometimes way too literal, and it never occurred to
me that "the Blind Assassin" was anything other than
the character in the book within a book. You guys got
me thinking. (You're good at that.) So after some
thought, I believe that Iris is a blind assassin in another
form. Her beautiful woven rug is her book; her slavery is
her sacrificial marriage; and her cunning is her carefully
hidden silence and cultivated ignorance within her
marriage. Her victim is Richard. The book was written in
Laura's name to keep Iris hidden, but also to make
Richard think that Laura was the character in the book. 

One question that I haven't been able to figure out
without rereading big sections: Why did Laura kill
herself? Was there some pact she made with God that if
she succumbed to Richard, Alex would be safe? On the
surface, it seems like that's what happened, but I don't
get it. 

Sherry

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (15 of 26),
      Read 28 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 23, 2001 12:17 PM 


I hadn't speculated on the Blind Assassin's metaphorical
significance either, Sherry, until others brought it up
here. I have a terrible habit of completely ignoring the
titles of books.

The BA's significance got to be important. Since it's the
title of the book I'm sure MA intended for it to resonate
throughout the book and not just in the embedded
story.

One thing that struck me in that embedded story was
the blindness of the assassin coupled with the
muteness of the sacrificial maiden. I'm sure we're
supposed to draw some metaphorical conclusions from
that. I kept thinking of things like "Hear no evil, see no
evil, speak no evil," and "The blind leading the halt." 

Ruth

"Citizen!
Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry—all of it—is a trip
into the unknown. " Vladimir Mayakovksy

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (16 of 26),
      Read 29 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 23, 2001 12:43 PM 


Sherry,
Laura took Iris's car and committed suicide right after
Iris told her that Alex was dead and revealed to her
that they had been lovers.

I think Laura was definitely the sacrificial maiden in the
modern version of the blind assassin tale. In speaking
of why she allowed Richard to have sex with her she
said:
"It was horrible, but I had to do it. I had to make the
sacrifice. I had to take the pain and suffering onto
myself. That's what I promised God. I knew if I did that,
it would save Alex."

Perhaps she could have recovered from the discovery
that Alex had been killed in the war after all, but the
news that her own sister had been Alex's lover must
have been devastating. I imagine she felt that God, who
had always been very important to her, had mocked
her.

Iris was left with the guilt.

Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (17 of 26),
      Read 27 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 23, 2001 03:05 PM 


I guess what I'm trying to understand is why Laura
thought that having sex with Richard would save Alex.
Usually her metaphysical logic was understandable,
within the confines of her unusual mind, but I couldn't
get a handle that particular leap. 

I also think the riddle that had "nothing" as the answer
was important within the context of the whole book.
Also that picture that Laura cut two different ways, one
with Laura's hand and Alex and Iris, and the other with
Iris's hand and Alex and Laura. Why was Alex so
important to both women?


Sherry

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (18 of 26),
      Read 28 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 23, 2001 03:55 PM 


Lord, the details of this are already escaping me, but
didn't Richard have something on Alex? Or perhaps he
convinced Laura that he had. I had the feeling that she
was partially bullied by Richard, and partially
blackmailed. 

Ruth

"Citizen!
Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry—all of it—is a trip
into the unknown. " Vladimir Mayakovksy

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (19 of 26),
      Read 29 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 23, 2001 06:53 PM 


I must have missed that detail first time through, but it
makes sense. If I really want to know the answer, I'll
have to do a bit of rereading.

Sherry

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (20 of 26),
      Read 16 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Jane Niemeier jniemeie@hotmail.com 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 23, 2001 09:24 PM 


Ruth,
I think that you are right. Richard probably told Laura
that he had the proof that Alex burned down the factory
(whether he did or not), and Laura thought that she
was sacrificing herself to save Alex. 

From what you have all said, it sounds as if both women
were blind assassins for each other. It is like the double
edged sword. They were both involved with the same
men. I was going to say that they both became
pregnant by the same man, but that isn't true. Iris
became pregnant with Alex's baby, I think. Their lives
were parallel in many ways.

There is so much in this novel.

Jane

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (21 of 26),
      Read 17 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 23, 2001 10:17 PM 


Iris asked Laura how she thought she was saving Alex
by having sex with Richard:
page 487
Iris: "Save Alex from what?"
Laura: "From being caught. They would have shot him.
Callie Fitzsimmons knew where he was, and she told.
She told Richard."

"I can't believe that."

"Callie was a snitch," said Laura. That's what Richard
said--he said Callie kept him informed. Remember when
she was in jail, and Richard got her out? That's why he
did it. He owed it to her."

You're right, Jane. This novel has many different levels. I
like the elaborate construction. One could also consider
Alex the blind assassin. After all, he made love to the
beautiful young woman and strove to overthrow the
powers that be.

What did you think of Winifred and of her relationship
with her brother in particular? Pretty strange, huh?

Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (22 of 26),
      Read 18 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 23, 2001 10:18 PM 


Callie was the former lover of the girls' father. Wasn't he
a sad case?
Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (23 of 26),
      Read 21 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net 
 Date: 
      Monday, September 24, 2001 07:50 AM 


That makes perfect sense. I remember that part, Ann,
but I had a hard time following it, since I had read the
part about Callie weeks ago, it seems (time seems to
have stretched out considerably lately). Richard
probably just made that up. 

Sherry

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (24 of 26),
      Read 19 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net 
 Date: 
      Monday, September 24, 2001 11:55 AM 


Or did he? Maybe Callie really was a snitch. Little in this
book seems to be what it first seems to be.And
everything is nested one within the other. It reminds me
of the milk can with the cow in the can with the cow in
the can with the cow in the can...

I'd love to know if MA figured out this complicated
structure before she wrote, or if it arose as she wrote. 

Ruth

"Citizen!
Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry—all of it—is a trip
into the unknown. " Vladimir Mayakovksy

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (25 of 26),
      Read 8 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Jane Niemeier jniemeie@hotmail.com 
 Date: 
      Monday, September 24, 2001 09:29 PM 


Iris later asked Callie if she had told Richard about Alex,
and she vehemently denied it. Who do you believe? I
think that I would believe Callie over Richard.
Jane


 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (26 of 26),
      Read 9 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      R Bavetta rbavetta@prodigy.net 
 Date: 
      Monday, September 24, 2001 09:59 PM 


I would too, given a level playing field. But maybe
Richard had something on Callie and she was ashamed
she caved?

But you're probably right, though.

Ruth

"Citizen!
Consider my traveling expenses: Poetry—all of it—is a trip
into the unknown. " Vladimir Mayakovksy

 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (27 of 33),
      Read 43 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Theresa Simpson theresa.a.simpson@gte.net 
 Date: 
      Sunday, September 30, 2001 11:44 PM 


Whew! Finally finished this one. Not entirely certain it
was worth the trip. I've felt this way after finishing all of
Atwood's books (and I've read 5-6), with the notable
exception of Handmaid's Tale, which I thought was
excellent.

I'm trying to figure out why Atwood generally leaves me
lukewarm. One thing is, I think she ALWAYS writes in
archetypes. This worked very well in Handmaid's Tale,
which was a fable, the natural habitat of the archetype.
In her other books, Atwood plonks her arche-characters
down into typical late-20th century (I know, I know,
we've turned the corner, but consider when this and her
other books were written) narratives, and they don't fit
very well.

Other writers, notably Robertson Davies, who also
always wrote archetypes, IMO, carry this off very well,
but with Atwood it just doesn't quite do, at least for me.

Theresa
I had to quit my fire-eating career when I could no longer
tell when to spit and when to swallow. Daphne Gottlieb

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (28 of 33),
      Read 34 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, October 02, 2001 03:00 PM 


Theresa,
Could you elaborate please on the archetypes in BA? I
saw the characters as unique individuals, so I missed
this aspect.
Ann

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (29 of 33),
      Read 31 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Jane Niemeier jniemeie@hotmail.com 
 Date: 
      Tuesday, October 02, 2001 09:27 PM 


Ann,
I was going to ask the same question about the
archetypes. I didn't see the characters in BA that way.
Jane

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (30 of 33),
      Read 35 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Theresa Simpson theresa.a.simpson@gte.net 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, October 03, 2001 02:22 AM 


I guess I see Atwood's characters as being constructions
for the conveyance of her moral (in the big sense of
moral); rather than characters as in personalities (like
you and me). Richard is the arch-fiend; Daddy was the
arch-failure; Iris is, truly, the Blind Assassin, in more
ways than one (remember that Lady Justice is typically
portrayed with a blindfold?)

I was having difficulty elucidating on why I think this, so I
did an AltaVista search (+"Margaret Atwood"
+archetype) and lo and behold, found several articles on
this very topic. Per The Canadian and World Encylopedia
entry:

"She studied at Victoria Coll, U of T, 1957-61, where the
influence of Jay MacPherson and Northrop FRYE directed
her early poetry towards myth and archetype as
exemplified by Double Persephone . . . "

I think this influence still shows in Atwood's novels, but
obviously am having difficulty explaining why I feel this in
my own words.

Theresa
I received my first virus ever tonight (the "I send you this
file in order to have your advice" virus - now I wanna
know how it got here. It's come in twice since I logged
on tonight - of course, I did not open the attachments.

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (31 of 33),
      Read 35 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Sherry Keller shkell@starband.net 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, October 03, 2001 08:06 AM 


(I rec'd letters just like that and deleted them right away.
They were from somebody called Nifer.) I think I
understand what you mean about the archetypes, but I
think Atwood blended the archetype elements with the
elements that personalized the characters. I noticed that
Richard was all-bad, and Iris even admitted that,
because she said something to the effect that she didn't
know any other part of him. Since Richard's personality
was shown to us from that one POV, I wasn't bothered
that he was only cast in one dimension.

Sherry

 
 

 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (32 of 33),
      Read 35 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Ann Davey davey@tconl.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, October 03, 2001 03:24 PM 


Theresa,
I felt that some of Atwood's earlier books were too
influenced by her pro-feminist message, but I really did
not discern a "lesson" in this book. I agree that Richard
and his sister were one-dimensional. As Sherry said, they
were portrayed only from Iris's point of view. However, I
thought that both Iris and Laura were complex and
intriguing characters. I finished the book not sure what I
thought about either one. I think that's a good sign.
Ann


 Topic: 
      THE BLIND ASSASSIN by Margaret Atwood (33 of 33),
      Read 35 times  
 Conf: 
      Reading List 
 From: 
      Dottie Randall randallj@ix.netcom.com 
 Date: 
      Wednesday, October 03, 2001 03:50 PM 


Eavesdropping on Atwood talk -- but that Nifer is one
busy little bee -- had FOUR of them in the e-mail two
Tues evening times and two after midnight times -- titled
7th final, Thematic Essays, 9th-ch7t, and letter-Kirsten --
don't know about attachments sapped these without a
glance since I've never seen Nifer before -- crazy stuff.
Wonder where this one came in from?

Dottie